Nice Guys Suck

[Towels]

I'm a regular nice guy. I'm with a nice girl who is often hit on for being very good-looking and into games.

Dude, you're lucky, meaning that most others are not as fortunate. This advice is for them.

We have an extremely healthy, trusting relationship that started out as a friendship, and since developed into something more. We've broken up twice before, and the second time we went on a 2-year hiatus, during which time neither of us found somebody better.

Um... Respectfully, are you sure about that? On-off relationships are not healthy at all in my experience. Just from the wording of your statement it seems like you both just settled on each other. Not trying to accuse... Just Saying(TM).

This is all the advice people need: Be 90% yourself. Try to hide the bad habits and don't fart, but otherwise be yourself.

Frustrated gentlemen don't understand what that means. "I AM myself! I'm the nice guy! Why won't that attract her?!" I believe Lara is saying that niceness alone isn't going to cut it.

Here's an example: I'm a nice guy who likes FPS games, seeing comedies and paintball. My friend is a nice guy who likes J-RPGs, Poetry and watching dramas. We are both "nice" but we're also very different. Perhaps the "Girl" prefers my J-RPG friend over me.

Being single is preferable to being in a dead-end relationship, trust me.

I couldn't agree more. Needs are NOT wants.

 

[Xeraxis]

I'm a regular nice guy. I'm with a nice girl who is often hit on for being very good-looking and into games. We have an extremely healthy, trusting relationship that started out as a friendship, and since developed into something more. We've broken up twice before, and the second time we went on a 2-year hiatus, during which time neither of us found somebody better. We both matured and dealt with some of our own hardships in that time and have since gotten back together, with resounding success, and have been together for a very long time now.

Point is, nice guys don't finish last. They lose the 100m sprint, but win the marathon. I think that Lara really doesn't seem to understand that she doesn't represent every girl on the planet, and is extremely derogatory of nice guys because that's not what she likes, and I don't think she deserves this article spot. The advice is often rage-inducingly bad, and at best can only set you up for a dead-end relationship with a little sex if you're lucky. All men are different, as are all women, and you can't state generalisations to be fact in these articles.

This is all the advice people need: Be 90% yourself. Try to hide the bad habits and don't fart, but otherwise be yourself. Be proud of your nerdy interests, and try to find someone that shares a lot of them, but don't try to make them like something they have no interest. Secondly, don't be ashamed to wait for someone worthwhile. Being single is preferable to being in a dead-end relationship, trust me.

I think that Susan Arendt should write one of these. I can almost guarantee that the advice will be a whole lot better, as well as being from a perspective that is of far more use to the Escapist's readers.

You're lucky enough to find someone like that. Not all are fortunate to that regard.

But, to not sound demeaning, I'm getting so tired of hearing the "be yourself" schtick. As I am proud of some of my personal traits and interests and try my best to hide some of my negative habits, being myself has put me absolutely nowhere with women, so how am I suppose to deal with that? I don't want to turn into a different type of person that I despise. I fail to understand any implications in this kind of situation.

 

[Athinira]

I suppose the difference between you and me is:

You think that "You have a duty to provide value to others" and "You should be valuable because you want to be, but everyone has a right to look down on you if you fail to do so" are two different things.

I don't. Or at least, I think that it's impossible to differentiate between the two meaningfully.

I didn't state that they should "look down on you". I said they just wouldn't care about you. There is a difference between looking down on someone and simply not giving a sh*t.

Also, i never said you have a "duty". In fact, i clearly stated that it's entirely up to you if you want to work towards people being able to appreciate you more easily.

It's perfectly reasonable to differentiate between the two meaningfully by the simple fact that it's a FREE CHOICE, just like taking an education. But being a free choice doesn't exclude it for being a requirement if you want to obtain something, but if you don't want to obtain something, then you don't have to do it.

Everyone has different motivations. Some people want to be awesome to be liked. Some people want to be awesome because it's awesome being awesome.

As I said in my first post on the thread, don't love me because I'm beautiful. If a woman doesn't love me when I'm weak and worthless, why should I believe her feelings are sincere when I do become more valuable and productive?

Love with conditions is not really love, is it?

No one loves another person unconditionally (because of 'fate' or some other arbitrary explanation). By that logic, would you still love your girlfriend/wife even if she cheated on you a hundred times? Would you love her if she suddenly decided to have a gender reassignment surgery? Would you love her if she some day showed up at a family dinner with a shotgun and shot your mom?

Don't fool yourself please. Love ALWAYS has conditions. And by conditions, I'm not just talking on the conscious level (as in having certain expectations of your (potential) partner), I'm also talking deep down on the chemical level and how your brain works. When you fall in love with someone, it is ALWAYS because something in that person (a combination of their looks, personality, events you experienced with them etc.) triggered the attraction, which means that the attraction had a condition. Unconditional love is like a unicorn: it only exists in fantasies.

And bottom line is that when it comes to attraction, personality is and will always be the biggest deciding factor. So to answer your question about why you should believe that a her feelings are sincere for you: Because if you were once weak and worthless, but got over it, then you changed your personality and are (essentially) a different person to her than when she met you the first time.

She might not have loved your old personality, but that doesn't exclude her being able to sincerely love your new one. And let me point out that i never used the word "productive", and never would use it in this context. Simply being an awesome person to be around is enough to provide people with value. It's an attribute, not a job.

And I'd like to point out that I'm speaking from personal experience on this once. I once met a girl through a friend at a time where i was a heavy drinker when i was out partying. It quickly became apparent after some interactions over the course of a few weeks with her that she resented my personality massively, even when i was only semi-drunk or sober.

Fast forward 9 months where i met her again after i stopped drinking and started partying sober, as well as having drastically managed to improve my personality. Watching a woman who was previously stone-cold to you suddenly turn warm (to the point of us even making out) because you simply changed your behavior is a real eye-opener, but most importantly, she is only ONE out of literally 50-100 examples of people who changed their attitude towards me because i managed to improve my behavior. I didn't do anything for them to buy their affection. I simply just started being a cool guy to hang out with instead of a mostly-drunken insecure adult who was still mentally a teenager. Not only did it cost me nothing except commitment, but i gained a lot in return from it, and it also improved my life in other areas (like the ability to handle exams and job interviews better).

I don't know if your religious or something, but I'm just going to give you an advice: Get out of your fantasy land. You'll be doing yourself a favor. This is a hard cruel world, and if you want to achieve something (emphasis on 'IF', no one is forcing you) then you have to work for it.

If i were to transfer your logic to a video game analogy (we're on the Escapist after all), your logic is essentially equal to having a piece of software that you never patch. No-one is perfect out of the box, but that doesn't mean you can't strive to be better, and just like video game developers release patches to improve their game and fix faults, you can patch yourself to and become more awesome. If you patch your video games, why wouldn't you patch yourself?

 

[KirbyKrackle]

As I said in my first post on the thread, don't love me because I'm beautiful. If a woman doesn't love me when I'm weak and worthless, why should I believe her feelings are sincere when I do become more valuable and productive?

Love with conditions is not really love, is it?

So much this... The women who expect men to be some kind of rockstar (and the reverse is true also) are the same as the ill touted Nice Guy because they have unrealistic expectations. 'Be amazing or I won't give you the time of day.' vs 'I gave you presents why won't you like me?' Aren't they equally as noxious?

Well, one is deceptive, and the other isn't, so it's not actually quite the same. Also, might I add that it's a bit much to expect unconditional love while being a worthless human being? Talk about unrealistic expectations, not to mention an entitlement complex. Lay off the Bronte, CM

Okay, Kirby, that was uncalled for.

To say that I have to be of value in order to receive love is the same is saying that I have to justify my existence on earth to others.

To say that it's 'entitled' of me to actually believe in unconditional love, which necessitates actually being unconditional and not contingent on being awesome or great, is simply ridiculous.

I considered writing a full response to this, but I think Athinira covered it pretty well. Adding anything else would likely be redundant on my part. Let me know though if there is anything you would still like me to clarify that you feel Athinira did not discuss or that you feel pertains particularly to my comments.

 

[Jegsimmons]

Love FAQ: Nice Guys Suck

"Nice Guys Finish Last" isn't just a song by Green Day.

Read Full Article

people still listen to green day?
antway
Yeah, i cant stand Nice Guys(tm), i actually just hate manipulation of others for self gain all together.

 

[Zen Toombs]

Nice Guy(tm)

In all probability this has already been said, but I'll say it again: props for your word choice.

 

[KirbyKrackle]

Nice Guys tend to make it quite clear, sooner or later, usually in the context of "I was so nice to you, you owe me X" or "how can she refuse me after I was so nice". Or sometimes they'll just never mention their true intentions, instead becoming increasingly bitter while refusing to ever change their poor behaviour since it's far easier to blame women and other people for their problems than suck it up and act like an adult.

Part of the problem, though, is that they are ultimately deceptive and you DON'T know that that's why they're being nice until the above blow up, which is why it's a huge problem, and again why I said it's an attempt to create and maintain a dishonest, unhealthy relationship.

I just wanted to say thank you Kirby for this post, pretty much helped me get rid of those worrying fears that I might have been a Nice Guy(TM) and not just someone who needs help with fears of being in a social setting.

I remember now that when I had a girlfriend in highschool I actually somehow had the nerve to talk to her and eventaully had the nerve to actually ask her out without fear. I guess now I just try and get over my fears in a social setting and maybe I can meet someone at sometime in my life and not just be second place or anything like that.

Also remember getting this cheap little gift for a girl my age at work who had a kid and didn't expect anything in return since I was just getting her a gift and that's all. So that's a good sign of just being nice and not a Nice Guy(TM) right?

Well, thank you kindly for saying so! I'm certainly no relationship expert, so I can't really advise on the ins and outs of the situations you've presented. However, I guess my main point about Nice Guys is that they are fundamentally dishonest, which cannot lead to a healthy relationship, so since you're interested in being honest about your intentions when starting relationships you should probably be okay. I can also commiserate a bit because man, social settings are hard, as is working up the nerve to ask someone out (however, doing this, rather than being underhanded about it in a Nice Guy fashion, is beneficial as it demonstrates that you do possess "nerve", some confidence, and honesty). Also, much like, say, a job interview, it's okay to feel a bit nervous and, while disappointing, it's okay to get rejected; it's still an experience you can learn from.

Oh and I guess I'm rambling by now, but the interview analogy can apply to other things, like looking fairly well groomed and being polite and not acting desperate and having something to show how valuable you are beyond "well I guess I'm nice" and, of course, not lying. Not sure how far this analogy should be taken though.

Anyway, good luck to you!

 

[DefZeppelin]

Wow, definitely a hot subject. This is the first time a LoveFAQ article has hit triple-digits in comments.

So the gist of the article is that being nice has no value in dating? That a man can only enter a meaningful relationship if he has exceptional qualities to flaunt? That the only way for a man to get laid is to pretty much say from the very beginning "Hey, let's hang out so that I can try to bang you next month"? I'm calling total bullshit on that.

Some men are actually unlucky enough to have no special qualities, talents, or abilities. This could be because of a poor education, unlucky job history, unconventional upbringing, some kind of disability, whatever. How are these men supposed to show off to women? When a man truely has no outstanding skills above other men, then being "nice" IS the only thing they have going for them, since it is the only thing that distinguishes us nice guys from the hoards of womanizing jackasses that give men a bad reputation. Nice guys have more respect for themselves and the women they seek to enter a relationship with than that.

You tell us to "be a supernova". This is about the most unrealistic expectation you could possibly have of a nice, quiet, shy man. Some men don't want to stand out, but rather have a quiet uneventful life that they can share with a woman who equally desires a quiet uneventful life. And some men are so shy around new people (especially women) that it takes them months, sometimes years, before they warm up enough to them to engage them on a personal level. And unfortunately, by the time that happens, the poor guy has long been friend-zoned. Being a "supernova", doing something stupid to stand out, to make us attractive, directly contradicts the whole "be yourself" principle that most people give as dating advice. For many men, just approaching a woman to begin with is far out of their comfort zone, and should qualify as being a "supernova" compared to their normal routine of hiding in fear of rejection.

Also, have you ever considered WHY some Nice Guys(tm) are the way they are? Well, when a man goes for years or decades without having a single successful date while all his friends around him have gotten laid thousands of times over, then he starts to get delusional and fanatic about the few women who do show him some sliver of attention. It is ***NOT*** because he is naturally a bad person! It is ***NOT*** because he is manipulative or deceptive for his own personal gain! It is because he is getting desperate to find a mate because he is so far behind his friends. A man whose been rejected hundreds or thousands of times consistently over the course of many years will obviously have self-esteem issues, and is going to become a little stalkerish! And every time a woman rejects him, it only makes things worse. He grows to hate women because he feels that women hate him, and feels that showering them with attention and buying them things will remedy that mutual hate. You see that as creepy. The man sees it as trying to mend a broken relationship.

A hint to ALL women: If a nice guy approches you, just freaking go on a couple dates with him! If you don't like him, be honest and respectful. If he gets clingy and stalkerish, help him out by introducing him to some of your friends you think he might like.

 

[duchaked]

And I used to be such a nice guy...

lol myself aside (no really, I'm more of a cynical jerk nowadays), something people should also learn to differentiate: bad boy versus Bad Boy?

 

[KaiusCormere]

It must be nice for introverted women to not have to be told to change their entire personality or die alone.

 

[gallaetha_matt]

And by the way, there's a reason these men are so timid. Young women, when they reject someone, are vicious. It's socially empowering for a women to publicly humiliate a male. Negative reinforcement is a powerful motivator. Women created these sissies.

Sorry boys and girls, there's a wall o'text comin' your way.

I don't agree with the rest of your post, you give off the impression that all women are implicit in some diabolical scheme to poison the world's supply of men. Either you're wrong and maybe a bit misogynistic, or you're right and you've just alerted the conspiracy to your presence - they could be coming for you next!

Joking aside though, you make a good point in the bit I've quoted here. I read a while ago that a young man either becomes a nice guy or a Nice Guy(tm) (to borrow Lara's term) based on the first time you ask someone out.

If the girl lets the guy down easy or says yes, then chances are he'll grow up with a healthy attitude towards romance. If the girl recoils like a rape victim, shriekingly digs up and exposes every one of the guy's flaws in front of an audience of laughing classmates, then that guy is gonna have some scars and maybe turn out to be a Nice Guy(tm) as he's described in this column.

This isn't a black and white issue, I think it's cynical and a bit dangerous to assume it is. Not all Nice Guys(tm) are living that way as a conniving attempt to get girls to sleep with him, some have to be just insecure and inexperienced with no way of properly dealing with their feelings. Kicking these poor bastards when they're down is only going to make things worse.

Plus, if these guys were really the master manipulators that Lara seems to imply they are, then they have to be a bit stupid in the bargain. I mean, if you're trying to trick a girl into sleeping with you - why use the Nice Guy(tm) method? It's almost always guaranteed to fail 95% of the time because it simply isn't attractive to most women.

But then there are the clear examples of Nice Guys(tm) that are just exploiting their friendships for sex. These guys are douchenozzles of the highest order and deserve your derision. Plus, like I said above - they're a bit stupid too.

I'm speaking as a reformed Nice Guy(tm) myself. It definately wasn't a calculated scheme on my part. I didn't feel like I was entitled to love or affection or anything, I just really wanted it and I didn't know any other way to get it. Plus I was the recipient of two of those shrieking, soul crushing rejections that I described earlier on and I was too terrified of putting myself out there all the way.

It took years of therapy and support and counselling just to get me to break the cycle. People kept telling me to 'be more confident' but gave me no clue as to how to do that. It's not about just being a 'supernova' and putting yourself out there, rejection be damned (although that's a good place to start). It's harder than that. You have to shift some things around inside yourself, find a way to constantly remind yourself of your good qualities and start off with small risks (i.e; talking to bus drivers and shop assistants) and build up to the harders ones (i.e; wearing a silly hat in public and asking a girl out).

Lara's article here, while entertaining, does the complete opposite. Same with the initial e-mail from the last article that provoked the discussion. Instead of trying to reform Nice Guys(tm) she's trying to punish them, essentially becoming just another peal of shrieking laughter. It's satisfying to strike people down if you think they deserve it, but it won't help them improve themselves. They'll be like Joe Pesci in Casino , they'll just keep getting back up.

I've rambled on more than I intended do (and I didn't think I'd be so sympathetic to the Nice Guys(tm) in my response), but I'll end by saying that I thought this article was entertaining. But if I'd have read it ten years ago at the height of my Nice Guyness, then it would've made me twice as bad. And that would be no help to anyone.

 

[Ophenix]

I dated a few Nice Guys? and it never went to a second date. One of them I even screwed before I dumped, the rest got a firm handshake and a glimpse of me walking away

The Nice Guys? I met tended to be little momma's boys who were constantly upset that they got rejected. You have more hair on your back than on your chest, you haven't seen the inside of a gym (excluding in specialty porn) and you whine about how all the hot muscular guys don't give you a second look... sigh.

For me the deal breaker was always the complaining, the feeling of being used, they would spend the date talking about the latest guy who hurt them and how they did everything for him:
"And then he photocopied my psych-evaluation and spread it around campus with my picture on it! He was such an asshole... I broke up with him two months after that."
"I payed for his Taxi to my place and he wouldn't even sleep with me! Too tired, liar." (Actual Quotes)

If I wanted something fuzzy, chubby and with a pathetic charm to it I'd take a puppy.

It must be nice for introverted women to not have to be told to change their entire personality or die alone.

There are female Nice Guys? you know...
I had one in the office next to me. She would go on and on about how X isn't being nice to her but he is being nice to Y. And X only likes her cos she is blonde and has big boobs. She is actually dumb and she didn't understand why a smart Nice Girl? like her isn't getting any attention.
I (out of pure malice) would flirt with her all the time but never actually hit on her and I would pretend to be ignorant when she'd flirt with me. I told myself that the second she'd muster up the guts to hit on me I'd tell her I'm gay.
Two years later I gave up and told her I had a boyfriend.

Did I mention I hate Nice Guys?? Cos I do.

 

[ProfMike789]

It's nice that everyone is showering you with praises, Lara. Unfortunately, it's completely unwarranted.

...

Women take. That's what they do. If a man doesn't demand some give AND take up front, then a woman will suck him dry.

Amen, brother.

 

[Twinmill5000]

It must be nice for introverted women to not have to be told to change their entire personality or die alone.

This forum needs an upvote function, because I wouldn't be able to upvote your post enough right now.

 

[Uncompetative]

FYI you are not nice.

 

[DracoSuave]

It must be nice for introverted women to not have to be told to change their entire personality or die alone.

There's a world of difference between 'introvert' and 'passive-agressive douchebag.'

The former isn't really going out of their way to meet new people, but that's okay because they're an introvert.

A passive-agressive douchebag expects people to go out of their way to meet them, and read their intentions, because they're pussies.

 

[mad825]

The term "Nice guys finish last" is an out-of-date term, ever since the work from R.Dawkins, the selfish gene. It is "Nice guys finish first".

 

[Hiroshi Mishima]

oddly the clarification doesn't feel any less insulting and still amounts to : girls don't want nice guys, you're better off being a jerk than being yourself.

You misread it. Gals do want nice guys who are themselves...and those selves are interesting (which might be introverted or extroverted). What they don't want is jerks. Many of the so-called Nice Guys (TM) are not actually nice guys, but jerks...which is why women don't like them.

I don't think he missed anything. I got the same feeling by the time I finished reading page 2. I THOUGHT she was saying that too on page 1, but by page 2 it felt like the same insulting "nice guys are losers" stuff all over again.

I've always been described as a nice guy cause I can empathize with people's problems, I'm usually fun to be around/good at making people laugh (whether I'm trying to or not), and am one of the few guys most girls know who will actually discuss female problems and not cringe or cower. I've never gotten the impression that women don't like me for those traits and have in fact had some good friendships with girls in and out of relationships; a couple of married ladies in college liked talking to me, for instance. Hell, my ex-girlfriend and I first started getting interested in one another when she was in another relationship and realized that compared to me, her boyfriend treated her like a trophy or some to feel superior to.

Now, I've not read all the comments cause I don't really have the time so maybe some of this has already been said.. but in the past whenever I see or hear a girl remark on how she wants a "Bad Boy" I feel as though she's never actually had a guy who respected her before. Why in the hell would you want someone who didn't care about you and just wanted you for your body? Why would you be interested in someone who is a complete jerk to you? I could understand if they were just playing the part but were secretly compassionate, a facade to hide their true self.. but how often do I ever encounter guys like that? None that I know of.

 

[Ophenix]

Why in the hell would you want someone who didn't care about you and just wanted you for your body? Why would you be interested in someone who is a complete jerk to you? I could understand if they were just playing the part but were secretly compassionate, a facade to hide their true self. but how often do I ever encounter guys like that? None that I know of.

Bad Boy =/= disrespectful misogynist.
If you want a misogynist you can look in the previous pages and see quite a few of the "nice guys" here think of women as enemies who are hiding something from or will 'suck you dry' if you act too nice to them.

Bad boys often are confident and open minded which are the traits a lot of women (and men) find attractive.

Like Lara said, you can be an insignificant wimp who complains about women loving guys who disrespect them on online forums or you can get out of the house, meet new people, take the chance of getting hurt and be a happier person for it.

 

[Towels]

Life is hard for everyone, people.

Only you are in control of your actions. Bitchy women creating Nice Guys(TM) is just an excuse, and its really inconsequential. If nice fellas want a healthy relationship, they have to overcome their environment. Some have it harder than others, and they have my sympathy, but not my pity.

"If you can't understand something, try just accepting it." -Jecht