Nice Guys Suck

[Cephei Mordred]

snip

Tell me something.

Were you born lacking empathy, or did you learn to be that way?

You are quite entitled to your opinions, but they all seemed to be predicated on the simple principle of "I'm awesome, if you aren't you deserve to die forever alone, lol sucks to be you!"

If you really feel that way, fine, but please have the intellectual honesty to know that's what it is.

 

[DracoSuave]

snip

Far from it.

I believe everyone has the capacity to be awesome, but when people aren't awesome, it's because they don't see what they do or what they are to be of value. Being awesome is about embracing yourself, and who you really are.

Thing is, being awesome is SO subjective, and has such a broad definition that the only way people can fail to fill it is by choice. Choosing not to be awesome is a problem of self-worth, and I'm not going to lie to them and say 'Hey, look guy, don't worry if you're not awesome, someone will find you.' Sometimes, empathy means telling the hard truth when the problem is a failure to face the truth.

Fact is, nature's not fair. It doesn't matter one bit if I am empathetic or not; natural selection is going to take place. Mates are going to select mates. People will judge each other before they let their genitals touch. This is how the universe IS. Bitching and moaning about what's right and what's fair will NEVER change these fundamental truths.

You have to earn good things, one way or another. Instead of bitching that you have to work for love, why don't you, instead, realize there's an endless number of ways TO earn love, and that one of those ways is effective and perfect for you, and then go do that?

 

[WingedIncubus]

Just had to come back and add another opinion, that is to say - we need another term for what we're all calling a Nice Guy. It's a bit of a misnomer and it can lead to confusion in people that aren't reading hard enough.

There's already a word for that in English: a wimp. "Symp" is also good, and it's already in use colloqually.

Oh, and this article is 100% WingedIncubus approved, except that this time it's a woman speaking the truth. It's harsh, but it's a reality check.

Of course, saying to a bunch of nerds, geeks, and otherwise shy people hiding behind the "social anxiety" tag here that "nice guys suck" is like promoting atheism to a bunch of fundies inside their own church, or going around a Occupy Wall Street rally dressed in power suit to yell at them with a microphone to get washed and find a job. It won't win her a lot of friends.

In the end of the day, "being yourself" is being yourself at your best. It's showing that you see yourself as worthy, and that you project the best qualities in you. Nice isn't one of them, it's the bare mininum for social decency, everyone's nice with someone. However, dating is a marketing's game, you have to be able to find your market, sell your goods, and find buyers.

Everyone's got some good points to sell for someone. Even the dweebiest, most shy of nerds has a girl attracted to him within his close range of people he encounters, even though chances are she won't be a ten or a swimsuit model. But she might be cute, she might be attractive in her own right. But if all you see in your dating radar it's the hawt ones and you can't compete with those hotshots who have a better shot at her than you do, then it's your expectations that are too high.

 

[J-meMalone]

You know what this is making me think of?
The problem here is you're lumping together "Nice Guys?" with genuine nice guys who have got the impression that being nice means a girl will want to be with you. Many aren't trying to manipulate girls into sex, they want the validation that's brought on by being in a relationship with someone, having someone return their feelings.

Yes, SOME are manipulative people (not very good ones, there are better ways I'm sure), but most are just people with some serious issues with confidence and want this validation, but the only way they know how to get it is to "be there for her" etc. and unload their problems because that's what they feel they need.

As you may be able to tell, I've been there, not as a "Nice Guy?", I try not to manipulate people to such a degree, but as a genuine nice guy with low confidence. While it may come across as pressuring people into a relationship/sex, what I really wanted was help and I tended to feel close and trusting towards those I liked.

Now, while I still suffer from low confidence, I now have to social skills to prevent these tendencies and embarrassing myself.

One thing I will agree with, saying "He was nice" IS damning someone with faint praise, it happens to me a lot sadly, I don't have many talents or much to make me stick out. So I just keep going, even if I don't see worth in myself, someone else could and I;d give the same advice to any genuine nice guy with low confidence.

 

[Combustion Kevin]

You know what this is making me think of?
The problem here is you're lumping together "Nice Guys?" with genuine nice guys who have got the impression that being nice means a girl will want to be with you. Many aren't trying to manipulate girls into sex, they want the validation that's brought on by being in a relationship with someone, having someone return their feelings.

Yes, SOME are manipulative people (not very good ones, there are better ways I'm sure), but most are just people with some serious issues with confidence and want this validation, but the only way they know how to get it is to "be there for her" etc. and unload their problems because that's what they feel they need.

As you may be able to tell, I've been there, not as a "Nice Guy?", I try not to manipulate people to such a degree, but as a genuine nice guy with low confidence. While it may come across as pressuring people into a relationship/sex, what I really wanted was help and I tended to feel close and trusting towards those I liked.

Now, while I still suffer from low confidence, I now have to social skills to prevent these tendencies and embarrassing myself.

One thing I will agree with, saying "He was nice" IS damning someone with faint praise, it happens to me a lot sadly, I don't have many talents or much to make me stick out. So I just keep going, even if I don't see worth in myself, someone else could and I;d give the same advice to any genuine nice guy with low confidence.

I propose we end this thread with these words, seeing how it all just ends up in perpetual flamewar.

 

[WingedIncubus]

The problem here is you're lumping together "Nice Guys?" with genuine nice guys who have got the impression that being nice means a girl will want to be with you. Many aren't trying to manipulate girls into sex, they want the validation that's brought on by being in a relationship with someone, having someone return their feelings.

Nice guy is a nice guy is a nice guy is a nice guy. When the main qualitative of a guy by other girls that he is "nice", it means he has no spark that drives women attracted. Even something like "this guy is an asshole" or "he can be such a brat sometimes" is better than "being nice". At least she's qualifying you with something.

People who brag about being nice, is like ice cream bragging about being plain vanilla. It's the bare minimum, but it's plain nonetheless.

It's simple, really. Within seconds girls and women KNOW whether they'd be opening the door to date you or not, and next to nothing will change that unless she's put you in the maybe category and you say something or show a glimpse of something that attracts her.

 

[AquaAscension]

Where did this "be a supernova" thing come from?

A lot of posts here were saying how bitchy girls are to blame for Nice Guy? insecurities, how women can be introverted but a guy has to change otherwise he is a bastard and other nonsense like that.
There is a common belief that Nice Guys? are just insecure and are doing their best because of it... Well, you want to get ride of your insecurities? Become a Supernova.

I know it sounds stupid and ridicules and over the top and irrelevant. It isn't...
We are all bashful gamers but while some of us hide behind our insecurities some of us fight them. "Nice" isn't a trait to flaunt, nice should be the norm and you should have enough personality traits and life experience to be more than just nice, and if you aren't than you should start now.

You didn't answer my question. You answered the question you thought I asked.

I AM a Supernova. Poet, martial artist, musician, writer, and, yes, pretty cool/nice guy. My personality isn't defined by my niceness, it's refined by it. It's the icing on top of my six pack. It's chocolate sauce on the Sunday of my fingertips as they blaze across the fret board. It's the mother f***in' cherry on top of the shake that is my poetry.

What I asked is "what the hell is a supernova?" As a poet, as a writer, as a person, Supernova means nothing to me because I literally do not know what it means. Hold on, let me check wikipedia and see if I can come up with an answer.

*Checks wikipedia*

Supernovae are extremely luminous and cause a burst of radiation that often briefly outshines an entire galaxy, before fading from view over several weeks or months. During this short interval a supernova can radiate as much energy as the Sun is expected to emit over its entire life span.

Ahhh okay, so saying, "Be a supernova" is a little akin to Katy Perry's Firework song? "Come on let your colors burst"? Shine bright, show who you are. I do that. But I fucking hate that analogy. In my opinion, it's asking people to burst brightly but violently. Oh, and once you do that, you can't go back to shining. It's trading beauty for evanescence. But I guess the truth of telling people to simply be themselves, shine with their own light without the implication of burning out afterward is simply not poetic. Enough. Why must our light be ephemeral?

However, on thinking... our light has to be ephemeral because we were born. Because we are alive. Sometimes I get angry (or I would were I a character in a play) at my mother. I get angry because the reason I'll die is that I was born. And we can't go back into darkness. As much as there may be comfort in that idea, this life was not given for us to not live in it.

I would have liked the metaphor more if there were a more powerful reason to "be a Supernova." See, what she should have said, what she should have implored us to do was find what gives us the energy to shine. For me, it is music, teaching, poetry, thinking, speaking, slam, so... many things that I adore doing. And since she didn't, I'll now at least implore myself to continue following what I love to do, use that love and passion as fuel for my eventual transformation into a Supernova state, and here's why:

Furthermore, the expanding shock waves from supernova explosions can trigger the formation of new stars.

Because being the being of light that I am, though I was born into darkness and ignorance I want to leave this world brighter. I want to trigger someone else to shine simply because they want to emulate the energy that I am made of. I don't want to be a supernova simply to get a girl because relationships break, entropy is our mistress; I want to be a supernova to add my energy to something, to give back, to create more light.

Make sense?

 

[J-meMalone]

The problem here is you're lumping together "Nice Guys?" with genuine nice guys who have got the impression that being nice means a girl will want to be with you. Many aren't trying to manipulate girls into sex, they want the validation that's brought on by being in a relationship with someone, having someone return their feelings.

Nice guy is a nice guy is a nice guy is a nice guy. When the main qualitative of a guy by other girls that he is "nice", it means he has no spark that drives women attracted. Even something like "this guy is an asshole" or "he can be such a brat sometimes" is better than "being nice". At least she's qualifying you with something.

People who brag about being nice, is like ice cream bragging about being plain vanilla. It's the bare minimum, but it's plain nonetheless.

It's simple, really. Within seconds girls and women KNOW whether they'd be opening the door to date you or not, and next to nothing will change that unless she's put you in the maybe category and you say something or show a glimpse of something that attracts her.

I actually agree with you here, nice is NOT a good thing on it's on, hence why I later mentioned agreeing that it's damning with faint praise. However no one person sees the world and people the same way. What's "just nice" to one girl may be amazing to another. There is no perfect man or woman because perfect means different things to different people.

Basically what I'm trying to say is what qualifies someone as "just nice" is different to different people and while the nice guy may come across boring to many, the probability is he will still meet many who see him more that "just nice."

 

[Methe]

I suspect that everyone agreeing that nice guys finish last (without any caveats) are still teenagers. No offence to anyone who isn't.

...That's kind of the point. Nice guys don't 'win' (Not that women are a prize to be won) until mid-life when women start looking to settle down. Which, yes, means that they finish last. It's the assholes who attract all of the girls/women at the earlier stages of life.

Oh, that's what it was referring to. I always thought "nice guys finish last, assholes finish first" was about premature ejaculation.

(Although in all seriousness, I don't really buy that dickishness is attractive to young people, and friendliness is only attractive to older people.)

Yeah, it's definitely not. People are people, and people are different.

PS I'm not mid-life, I'm just not a teenager

 

[KirbyKrackle]

Now to drop the analogy before it snaps from being overused and overstretched.

Too late.

"It doesn't matter how many women you ask out (hundreds, thousands) if you they are, in fact, too good for you. "

Right around here is where it shattered.

You give employers a resume listing all your qualifications. How often do you tell someone everything about yourself before asking them out?

That part of my analogy is intended to be more comparable to judging how qualified you are for the job/date before applying/asking the person out. For the job, if you, the nice guy with zilch going for him beyond "not a total asshole" decides "Yeah, this job that requires loads more experience, education, and skills that I possess is something I'm totally qualified for" and applies for the same type of position a thousand times, well, it's not those companies' fault the nice guy has an inflated sense of his own self worth, and they do not owe him and his resume more than a passing glance. Likewise, if a nice guy approaches a 1000 women who are out of his league, well, not the women's fault he has an inflated sense of his own self worth, and they do not owe him more than a passing glance. Hope that clears things up!

Also, pretty sure that if you do online dating you do have an opportunity to provide a profile that would be comparable to a resume, don't you?

 

[KirbyKrackle]

So getting a job and getting a date have some similarities, turns out.

Just a simple thumbs up for this response

Thanks!

Just had to come back and add another opinion, that is to say - we need another term for what we're all calling a Nice Guy. It's a bit of a misnomer and it can lead to confusion in people that aren't reading hard enough.

It is a bit confusing, it seems, but the reason they're called Nice Guys is because they call themselves nice guys (usually while grumbling some variation of the "nice guys finish last" bullshit to justify how their shitty, cowardly behaviour fails to be a hit with the object of choice (and do they ever fail to consider the other person an object?)). You could call them "Guys Who Call Themselves Nice But Are Actually Dishonest, Cowardly, Entitled Jackasses" for clarity, but it doesn't exactly roll off the tongue.

snip

Tell me something.

Were you born lacking empathy, or did you learn to be that way?

You are quite entitled to your opinions, but they all seemed to be predicated on the simple principle of "I'm awesome, if you aren't you deserve to die forever alone, lol sucks to be you!"

If you really feel that way, fine, but please have the intellectual honesty to know that's what it is.

Funny how you think it's mean and unfair for other people to judge you in any way but you feel you're free to judge other people as harshly as you like. You're doing a swell job of demonstrating how entitled you aren't!

Also, I love this: "After all, if love must be earned, what else must be earned in life?" Holy shit! There are things in life that must be earned! You aren't entitled to a free ride through life! I dunno, something about your shock at all this is just kind of adorable.

 

[Cephei Mordred]

You know my real feelings, Kirby. I stated them to you in PM yet you still persist in treating me like I'm the stupidest ************ on the planet.

In any case, I might someday decide to give in and make something of my life, but you, you'll always be a Libertarian. May the day never come when I sink so low.

So, put the Ayn Rand down for a moment and quit using the law of the jungle as an excuse to spit on those you consider beneath you, eh?

 

[gallaetha_matt]

Just had to come back and add another opinion, that is to say - we need another term for what we're all calling a Nice Guy. It's a bit of a misnomer and it can lead to confusion in people that aren't reading hard enough.

It is a bit confusing, it seems, but the reason they're called Nice Guys is because they call themselves nice guys (usually while grumbling some variation of the "nice guys finish last" bullshit to justify how their shitty, cowardly behaviour fails to be a hit with the object of choice (and do they ever fail to consider the other person an object?)). You could call them "Guys Who Call Themselves Nice But Are Actually Dishonest, Cowardly, Entitled Jackasses" for clarity, but it doesn't exactly roll off the tongue.

We could always abbreviate GWCTNBAADCEJ, but I don't think our puny earth tongues are ready to navigate so many consonants in a row. Not until I finish the research anyway. But by that point I'll have better uses for my prehensile tongue, like stealing crisps from unsuspecting subway passengers and cunnilingus (also performed on the subway, no one will know what the fuck.)

I kind of let that one get away from me there. Sorry.

It's always going to be a mouthful because you always have to differentiate between a Nice Guy and a nice guy before you say anything. Otherwise people will start misreading, hence why we've had this enormous 10 page internet slap fight.

I hope that makes sense. I'm having a hard time focussing my thoughts tonight (see my first paragraph.)

 

[KirbyKrackle]

You know my real feelings, Kirby. I stated them to you in PM yet you still persist in treating me like I'm the stupidest ************ on the planet.

In any case, I might someday decide to give in and make something of my life, but you, you'll always be a Libertarian. May the day never come when I sink so low.

So, put the Ayn Rand down for a moment and quit using the law of the jungle as an excuse to spit on those you consider beneath you, eh?

Yeah, it's almost like knowing your "real feelings" is related to how I treat you.

Rand thought she was entitled to go for any guy she wanted without having judgement cast on her, but was a complete hypocrite who went apeshit when a guy did the same thing to her and felt free to get very judgey indeed. Hmm, entitlement and hypocrisy reminds me of someone...can't quite put my finger on who though.

 

[Cephei Mordred]

You know my real feelings, Kirby. I stated them to you in PM yet you still persist in treating me like I'm the stupidest ************ on the planet.

In any case, I might someday decide to give in and make something of my life, but you, you'll always be a Libertarian. May the day never come when I sink so low.

So, put the Ayn Rand down for a moment and quit using the law of the jungle as an excuse to spit on those you consider beneath you, eh?

Yeah, it's almost like knowing your "real feelings" is related to how I treat you.

Were you born this smarmy or did you learn it?

Rand thought she was entitled to go for any guy she wanted without having judgement cast on her, but was a complete hypocrite who went apeshit when a guy did the same thing to her and felt free to get very judgey indeed. Hmm, entitlement and hypocrisy reminds me of someone...can't quite put my finger on who though.

Touche.

Still, given how many of her followers use her philosophy to rationalize their heartless "I got mine, everyone else can starve and die like dogs in the street" mentality, I'm sure you could get behind that much.

In any case, I don't believe we're entitled to whoever we desire, I just disagree with the "you deserve to die forever alone if you're lazy" mentality.

 

[Ophenix]

It's the icing on top of my six pack. It's chocolate sauce on the Sunday of my fingertips as they blaze across the fret board. It's the mother f***in' cherry on top of the shake that is my poetry.

Now I have a troubling image of milkshakes being licked off your icing coated six-pack...

 

[Canyoureadmydeadpan]

Use a skinner box model with women. Reenforce positive behavior in random intervals. It is the most effective method in having women act the way you wish them to, since they will constantly act in a manner to gain that "reward" at random.

Like wise, negatively reenforce bad behavior. Too strong of punishment can be counter productive so be sure to understand the level you will take punishment as a consequence and when to use it.

As sad as it is, women are like animals. They are easily manipulated, easy to train, and no matter how "intelligent" they believe they are they are incapable of seeing when you are playing with their head. Use it to your advantage.

 

[Kopikatsu]

Use a skinner box model with women. Reenforce positive behavior in random intervals. It is the most effective method in having women act the way you wish them to, since they will constantly act in a manner to gain that "reward" at random.

Like wise, negatively reenforce bad behavior. Too strong of punishment can be counter productive so be sure to understand the level you will take punishment as a consequence and when to use it.

As sad as it is, women are like animals. They are easily manipulated, easy to train, and no matter how "intelligent" they believe they are they are incapable of seeing when you are playing with their head. Use it to your advantage.

To be fair, all humans are like that. Not just women.

Actually, I would imagine women are better at manipulation than men are. CONSIDERING IT'S ALL THEY DO.

/shot

 

[AquaAscension]

It's the icing on top of my six pack. It's chocolate sauce on the Sunday of my fingertips as they blaze across the fret board. It's the mother f***in' cherry on top of the shake that is my poetry.

Now I have a troubling image of milkshakes being licked off your icing coated six-pack...

How do you know that wasn't the intention?

Anyhow, this exchange of words gave me an idea for a really egocentric slam piece, so it wasn't all for naught. Actually 2 different ideas came of that post you quoted, but the second is much more nebulous than the first, but that makes sense since it's about supernovae which is not technically quoted there but rather part of the original post.

 

[Paragon Fury]

And so Lara, what happens to all those men whose only real selling point is that they are "nice"?

If a person has *no* selling point besides they are nice? They have no hobbies, no interests, no conversational skills, no smarts, no brawn, no skills, no style, no nothing? They won't be very successful in getting dates.

Why? Because who wants to date a lump? Nobody.

And often, a person who says, "I have no selling point but I'm nice" -- is also saying "my niceness is a component of insecurity and codependency"--which makes the niceness not actually nice but a symptom of unhealthiness. Most people don't want to date a servant with self-esteem issues. And those few people who do? Are also messed up people who will abuse that Nice Person.

So, if you think of yourself as a person who has no real selling point besides being nice? I recommend:
1) therapy to work through self-esteem issues.
2) begin a process of self improvement and growth, not for other people but for yourself.

At the end of the process you should have other selling points besides being "nice"
Having other selling points will help your self-esteem.
Having self esteem makes you less likely to be targeted by messed up people and more likely to get into a good relationship.
Healthy people will find you attractive if you have self-esteem and have points of interest.

So work on that. You don't have to be alpha or extroverted. But you have to have self-esteem and have interests. Having interests make you interesting, being interesting makes people want to be around you.

When all of that is done, then if you see someone you are interested in, Ask them Out for coffee. If you don't ask, you won't get a "sure." It is possible that some person may ask you out instead...but not if you are uninteresting with no self-esteem.

Or better yet, what if if a guy does have interests/hobbies, but they are not the kind that women tend to like or find attractive?

Do they still have to change themselves then, or is it someone else's burden then?