No, BioShock Infinite's Ending Doesn't Suck

[Treaos Serrare]

as someone who unfortunately lives in the republican south i can attest that there ARE some people THAT fucking stupid as to make that connection and claim offense to it

I don't get the too violent argument, if the executions are the only thing that are making people question the use of violence than just don't do the executions. You don't have to do them, and in all actuality, you're pretty vulnerable when you go out of your way to do them.

It depends on the Booker-Build you go for there are outfits(to replace your tonics) that give you bonuses on the in your face stuff i hade two or three that gave me increased damage increased range and health absorption.

The ultimate point of them though was to showcase Booker as being Unhinged and barely sane in battle situations due to his Massive PTSD and guilt over Wounded Knee, it also helps that Elizabeth Freaks out a bit every time you Murder a dude with the executions but for the most part just takes them as Necessary evils to get away from the hell of the tower and what Comstock has planned for her. which is why she runs off as many times as she does to get away from you(Booker) and the situation at hand that may or may not have been caused by Booker or a decision Booker made that affected them both.

 

[Farther than stars]

The Lutece brother never racked up his debt! That was Booker's own gambling and drinking that brought him to that state!

Remember what the Lutece said. In exchange for PAYING OFF your debts you would give us the girl.

The Lutece was the one who paid of his debt in exchange for the girl. Now if you have to ask me who wants a young baby girl the answer is quite obvious. The guy Booker still owes the debt when the Lutece doesn't pay it off. You see we return to the point where Booker is STILL indebted nobody is there to pay it off for him now.

Well, basically you're just arguing semantics now (and the Luteces had something to say about that as well). Just because Comstock paid off the debt, doesn't mean it wasn't fabricated by the Luteces in the first place. By the way, I do like how you refer to the Luteces as being one person (although we differ semantically on that as well).

 

[maninahat]

Now Elizabeth can life happily ever after with her dad who thanks to how this multiverse apparently works retains no memory of his experiences in Columbia, meaning he is still a drunken gambler who will sell his daughter first chance he gets.

Yay for happy parenting ending!!!

Not so fast. Because he "died", there is no one to go buy the daughter off of him. Most people generally are not predisposed to buy people's babies. It isn't a happy life ahead (alcoholism, debts, guilt broken abusive family) but it's probably better than a racist super city that ends up either destroying everything, or getting blown to bits.

 

[1337mokro]

The Lutece brother never racked up his debt! That was Booker's own gambling and drinking that brought him to that state!

Remember what the Lutece said. In exchange for PAYING OFF your debts you would give us the girl.

The Lutece was the one who paid of his debt in exchange for the girl. Now if you have to ask me who wants a young baby girl the answer is quite obvious. The guy Booker still owes the debt when the Lutece doesn't pay it off. You see we return to the point where Booker is STILL indebted nobody is there to pay it off for him now.

Well, basically you're just arguing semantics now (and the Luteces had something to say about that as well). Just because Comstock paid off the debt, doesn't mean it wasn't fabricated by the Luteces in the first place. By the way, I do like how you refer to the Luteces as being one person (although we differ semantically on that as well).

You do know it was just the Brother that interacted with Booker right?

That is why I say The LUTECE. Because it's just one. Before the timey-wimey-essence-scattery accident with the rift machine the sister never interacted with Booker.

Also it's not really semantics as it is quite literally stated as being as such. The ONLY thing that has been absolutely confirmed is that they offered to relieve him of that debt. Now the debt has a symbolic meaning later on but that is besides the point.

Why do I think the Luteces didn't fabricate the debt? Because they could have just Kidnapped the girl never tipping off Booker. Why go back in time, make sure Booker is in debt, then offer to relieve him of that debt by selling his daughter? You know that makes no sense. Just open a rift in the office or wait until Booker goes to get milk for his kid, remember dead wife and I don't think Booker is the kind of man to start lactating, then snatch the kid.

It's convoluted hoop jumping for no reason besides an attempt to be deep and failing at it because the much easier solution is right there.

 

[maninahat]

Ending is fine although troubled by a couple of plot holes and inconsistencies. The only thing I find really disappointing is the fact that focus on Elizabeth basically prevented them from in-depth exploration of some of the issues they mention in the game (slavery, class conflicts, racism etc.).

The thing is, those issues are fairly simple and transparent in and of themselves. As an audience, we know that racism and slavery is bad, and that's really all there is to say on the subject. Oh, and that prolonged racism can produce violent extremists amongst its victims. This is different from Objectivism, which is more nuanced, complicated in concept, and actually holds some appeal for certain people.

I wish they went into quack science and supernaturalism more. The creepiest moment for me in the entire game is when you stumble across Elizabeth's menarche. I didn't even know what that word meant, but I knew immediately what I was looking at...shudder. I found it fairly plausible that turn of the century pseudo-science would resort to that kind of perverse, idiotic research. Hell, there could be this whole story about a leader who depends on exploiting people's fear of the supernatural, whilst there is an ongoing process to figure if it really exists - the effects and appeal of superstition, and the science of a real afterlife and magic.

 

[JagermanXcell]

Nice to know Yahtzee/Movie Bob and many others really liked this game's ending.
I personally loved the ending, haven't seen and ending this moving since Persona 4. Sure it was generic, filled with several plot holes, but it left me with this sense of awe. I was not only pleased but at the same time filled with emotion, which then ended with happiness in the post credits scene:

Spoiler

Bookers actions in killing himself then made it possible to have a universe where there is not only no Comstock to kidnap his daughter, but he may even get the chance to raise his daughter Anna.

And that got me thinking, this game could end in a huge number of other ways: Perhaps Booker took Elizabeth to Paris, got her that puppy she always wanted, danced with her at the beach when she asked, ect. ect.

Different universes, with different outcomes all satisfying everyone's and even the character's wants and desires, all because one man's choice and personal redemption in the very end.

The possibilities with this ballsy ending we got are ENDLESS. And that why I love this game's ending. And if you don't like it "To each their own" I say...
But you're wrong and I hate you.

OT: At least this game took the time to explain its ending, unlike... other... Bioware related endings... PLEASE GOD NO ONE REPLY TO THIS!

 

[1337mokro]

Now Elizabeth can life happily ever after with her dad who thanks to how this multiverse apparently works retains no memory of his experiences in Columbia, meaning he is still a drunken gambler who will sell his daughter first chance he gets.

Yay for happy parenting ending!!!

Not so fast. Because he "died", there is no one to go buy the daughter off of him. Most people generally are not predisposed to buy people's babies. It isn't a happy life ahead (alcoholism, debts, guilt broken abusive family) but it's probably better than a racist super city that ends up either destroying everything, or getting blown to bits.

You do know people sell babies all the time? Right?

I mean right now some baby somewhere is sold to someone. It is also questionable about what is best or better. I don't think you know exactly how bad an alcoholic gambling broke dad can be. Neither do I but you seem to be SERIOUSLY down playing it.

Sure she was stuck up in the city but she had everything she wanted. Essentially the Bird and the Cage argument here, but in my opinion she was better off in the Cage physically speaking and we don't KNOW if Comstock would have gone through with it in THAT dimension. Remember multiple universes? For all we know the universe she was in had a Comstock that would eventually mellow down, you see we don't actually know in which universe we are at the end. The Comstock we kill might not have been the first Comstock, after all the Comstock killing happens after I think about... 3-4 different universe changes?

Oh sure old Elizabeth sends you back to A universe where she was captured but you don't know if it was the same you started in.

So really all we know is that one of the Elizabeths in one of the Universes destroys the world for sure. The rest is up in the sky (ha pun!).

 

[Farther than stars]

You do know it was just the Brother that interacted with Booker right?

That is why I say The LUTECE. Because it's just one. Before the timey-wimey-essence-scattery accident with the rift machine the sister never interacted with Booker.

Also it's not really semantics as it is quite literally stated as being as such. The ONLY thing that has been absolutely confirmed is that they offered to relieve him of that debt. Now the debt has a symbolic meaning later on but that is besides the point.

Why do I think the Luteces didn't fabricate the debt? Because they could have just Kidnapped the girl never tipping off Booker. Why go back in time, make sure Booker is in debt, then offer to relieve him of that debt by selling his daughter? You know that makes no sense. Just open a rift in the office or wait until Booker goes to get milk for his kid, remember dead wife and I don't think Booker is the kind of man to start lactating, then snatch the kid.

It's convoluted hoop jumping for no reason besides an attempt to be deep and failing at it because the much easier solution is right there.

Well, if you actually only meant the one, physical, male Lucete, you can't call him "the Lutece" without qualifying his name some how, i.e. twin, brother, twin-brother, male or something like that.
Anyway, the fact that they could have just opened a tear in Anna's bedroom also applies if they didn't rack up the debt. All the arguments for why they wouldn't do that, such as convenience, morality, etc., only strengthen the argument for why they would want to create the debt in the first place.

P.S. Actually, hang on, I just thought of something. The multiple-worlds interpretation means that we're both right, because both eventualities happen in two different universes. That way I get my symbolic interpretation of events and you get your hard-line, empirical interpretation.

 

[maninahat]

Now Elizabeth can life happily ever after with her dad who thanks to how this multiverse apparently works retains no memory of his experiences in Columbia, meaning he is still a drunken gambler who will sell his daughter first chance he gets.

Yay for happy parenting ending!!!

Not so fast. Because he "died", there is no one to go buy the daughter off of him. Most people generally are not predisposed to buy people's babies. It isn't a happy life ahead (alcoholism, debts, guilt broken abusive family) but it's probably better than a racist super city that ends up either destroying everything, or getting blown to bits.

You do know people sell babies all the time? Right?

I mean right now some baby somewhere is sold to someone. It is also questionable about what is best or better. I don't think you know exactly how bad an alcoholic gambling broke dad can be. Neither do I but you seem to be SERIOUSLY down playing it.

Sure she was stuck up in the city but she had everything she wanted. Essentially the Bird and the Cage argument here, but in my opinion she was better off in the Cage physically speaking and we don't KNOW if Comstock would have gone through with it in THAT dimension. Remember multiple universes? For all we know the universe she was in had a Comstock that would eventually mellow down, you see we don't actually know in which universe we are at the end. The Comstock we kill might not have been the first Comstock, after all the Comstock killing happens after I think about... 3-4 different universe changes?

Oh sure old Elizabeth sends you back to A universe where she was captured but you don't know if it was the same you started in.

So really all we know is that one of the Elizabeths in one of the Universes destroys the world for sure. The rest is up in the sky (ha pun!).

So wait, you accept the possibility that there is a universe where Comstock will see the error of his ways and not blow the living daylights out of the world below (despite building the entire apparatus and trapping Lizzy to do so), but we're not going to consider the possibility that Booker won't sell his baby, now that no one is going to come straight to his door, asking to buy his baby? Hell, he was reluctant enough the first time round, when someone put the idea to him in the first place.

 

[maninahat]

I don't mean to brag and all, but I figured she was Booker's daughter almost straight away. Someone calls her Annabel (the name Booker keeps saying), and Booker makes a specific point of saying he totally did not have a baby. Yes, this thing was going Old Boy on our ass. I wonder how many people didn't see it coming, and ended up getting pissed off when it became clear that Elizabeth was a no go (only an hour after her revealing, re-dressing scene).

 

[Sniper Team 4]

People have said that Infinite's ending was the worst ending ever? Really? Okay, I miss my happy ending that I got from BioShock and BioShock 2, but I thought Infinite's ending was fine. It took me a second to wrap my head around, but I got it--once I started viewing it through a comic-book-reality pair of lenses. Like the multiverse that's always showing up in DC.

I'm glad Yahtzee pointed out the fact that no one else was using Vigors. I found that strange. What I found even stranger was the upgrade for the Possession vigor. After you posses a human, they kill themselves after a short time. Who...who thought that was a good idea? Think about that for a moment: You are walking down the street, someone hits you with a green mist, and a few moments later you are compelled to kill yourself. And it's not like this was a secret version of Possession. This upgrade was available at any Viny-Vigor machine. That's insane, because Possession now serves no purpose beyond murdering someone.

 

[Zakarath]

I Despised infinite's ending.
Point one: You're drowned by Elizabeths who wouldn't have been around to drown you if you didn't become Comstock. Paradox.
Two: Silly M. Night. Shyamalan Plot Twists: The bad guy is evil you from another dimension; Elizabeth is your daughter. Really, guys? Is this really the best you can do?
Three: All that I saw throughout the game disagrees with the hypothesis that Elizabeth is the sort of person to resolutely murder Brooker by drowning him.
Four: The best part of the game was, to me, watching Elizabeth grow as a character. She's one of my favorite characters in a good while, and you've fought your way through Columbia, and both of you have faced your demons and grown as characters from it. And the ending throws all your work and trials away, consigns both of those characters to the void, and retcons both you and her into boring normal people I don't give a damn about. So what if you're doing it to stop Comstock? COMSTOCK DOESN'T FUCKING MATTER. He's the sad little king of his sad little city, and if he really does get around to sending those silly airships against the world in the 1980s as the vision showed, I'd like to watch those airships getting introduced to fighter jets and Surface-to-Air missiles. Hell, back in the Cold War mentality of those times, Columbia would probably just take a nuke to the face.

 

[1337mokro]

You do know it was just the Brother that interacted with Booker right?

That is why I say The LUTECE. Because it's just one. Before the timey-wimey-essence-scattery accident with the rift machine the sister never interacted with Booker.

Also it's not really semantics as it is quite literally stated as being as such. The ONLY thing that has been absolutely confirmed is that they offered to relieve him of that debt. Now the debt has a symbolic meaning later on but that is besides the point.

Why do I think the Luteces didn't fabricate the debt? Because they could have just Kidnapped the girl never tipping off Booker. Why go back in time, make sure Booker is in debt, then offer to relieve him of that debt by selling his daughter? You know that makes no sense. Just open a rift in the office or wait until Booker goes to get milk for his kid, remember dead wife and I don't think Booker is the kind of man to start lactating, then snatch the kid.

It's convoluted hoop jumping for no reason besides an attempt to be deep and failing at it because the much easier solution is right there.

Well, if you actually only meant the one, physical, male Lucete, you can't call him "the Lutece" without qualifying his name some how, i.e. twin, brother, twin-brother, male or something like that.
Anyway, the fact that they could have just opened a tear in Anna's bedroom also applies if they didn't rack up the debt. All the arguments for why they wouldn't do that, such as convenience, morality, etc., only strengthen the argument for why they would want to create the debt in the first place.

P.S. Actually, hang on, I just thought of something. The multiple-worlds interpretation means that we're both right, because both eventualities happen in two different universes. That way I get my symbolic interpretation of events and you get your hard-line, empirical interpretation.

You finally figured out the real story of Bioshock Infinite.

Nothing matters because everything has happened!

Welcome brother. To the realm of insignificance through omni-existence.

Though why would convenience be an argument AGAINST just kidnapping the kid? It is the most convenient one? Or are you saying they deliberately did not pick the most convenient of all solutions?

So wait, you accept the possibility that there is a universe where Comstock will see the error of his ways and not blow the living daylights out of the world below (despite building the entire apparatus and trapping Lizzy to do so), but we're not going to consider the possibility that Booker won't sell his baby, now that no one is going to come straight to his door, asking to buy his baby? Hell, he was reluctant enough the first time round, when someone put the idea to him in the first place.

Oh of course there is one. But there is also one where he WILL do it. In fact there WAS already a universe where Booker didn't become Comstock and also didn't sell his daughter, cleaned up his act and became a good father...

So the entire story is just pointless because of the multiverse.

You see when you really think about it in the grand scheme of things Booker accepting his mistakes really isn't that important because an alternate reality Booker already did.

Also the first time around? This is an all new Booker right? Or is it the same Booker with the memories from Columbia? How would that work when Columbia literally never existed? Stop scratching at the paint mate, you're untangling the story

PS

Please continue picking at the logistics of the multiverse. I can't wait till it all unravels.

 

[1337mokro]

double post.

 

[Trivial Punk]

Part of the reason everything was so cartoonishly shiny was to juxtapose the buck-toothed, saw-bladed psychotic violence with it. In fact, I felt that it was right at home. Creepy horror has been done a hundred times before, but it's not often that you get to appreciate how at home this level of violence can be amongst the shiny lights of a big city. It makes it more unnerving in my mind. I remember you mentioning in your Dead Space 2 review that you had never seen a ripped-apart space station that looked like it had ever been a nice place to live. Well, this is the sort of thing we get when we mash the two up. And, before you paint the cultists as cartoonish, religious zealots, remember that we have those people in our world. They're real people without the real sort of power the characters had in the game. I agree with you about the ending, and even the Vigors, to a degree, but I would say that Comstock could go to an alternate reality where he had succeeded, but then he wouldn't be there to get there in the first place, so that reality wouldn't have had him getting there. He probably has done that in a lot of other places. Also, remember that this rift technology hasn't fully proliferated and seemed to be in the hands of the upper class and the scientists that used it. Lastly, yes, there are unnecessary things in the game, but I'd hate to complain about that. It sends the wrong message to the industry. Technically, games like this are unnecessary, because we could churn out the same washed-out shooters over and over without a thought to story and they'd still sell. Mario has been making the same game for. Ever. Besides, would you have wanted a BioShock game without vigors? I liked the way it tied the worlds together/apart. Sort of fit, really, especially considering the meta-narrative bits about sequels. This game exists on several levels and I'd hate to say that we need one, but that the other was silly.

 

[Farther than stars]

You do know it was just the Brother that interacted with Booker right?

That is why I say The LUTECE. Because it's just one. Before the timey-wimey-essence-scattery accident with the rift machine the sister never interacted with Booker.

Also it's not really semantics as it is quite literally stated as being as such. The ONLY thing that has been absolutely confirmed is that they offered to relieve him of that debt. Now the debt has a symbolic meaning later on but that is besides the point.

Why do I think the Luteces didn't fabricate the debt? Because they could have just Kidnapped the girl never tipping off Booker. Why go back in time, make sure Booker is in debt, then offer to relieve him of that debt by selling his daughter? You know that makes no sense. Just open a rift in the office or wait until Booker goes to get milk for his kid, remember dead wife and I don't think Booker is the kind of man to start lactating, then snatch the kid.

It's convoluted hoop jumping for no reason besides an attempt to be deep and failing at it because the much easier solution is right there.

Well, if you actually only meant the one, physical, male Lucete, you can't call him "the Lutece" without qualifying his name some how, i.e. twin, brother, twin-brother, male or something like that.
Anyway, the fact that they could have just opened a tear in Anna's bedroom also applies if they didn't rack up the debt. All the arguments for why they wouldn't do that, such as convenience, morality, etc., only strengthen the argument for why they would want to create the debt in the first place.

P.S. Actually, hang on, I just thought of something. The multiple-worlds interpretation means that we're both right, because both eventualities happen in two different universes. That way I get my symbolic interpretation of events and you get your hard-line, empirical interpretation.

You finally figured out the real story of Bioshock Infinite.

Nothing matters because everything has happened!

Welcome brother. To the realm of insignificance through omni-existence.

Though why would convenience be an argument AGAINST just kidnapping the kid? It is the most convenient one? Or are you saying they deliberately did not pick the most convenient of all solutions?

Booker could rush in and wrestle her out of their hands.* It's simply easier for the Luteces to get their hands on her if Booker agrees to it, but it also puts their minds at rest that Booker did this voluntarily.
As a matter of fact, even if they didn't actively influence every card Booker drew, they still picked a universe in which he lost, as opposed to winning big and becoming a millionaire. Cumulatively speaking, that's the same thing, because they could also kidnap her from the rich-Booker universe. But I don't think the Lutece twins would have a problem with influencing every single card either. After all, they were willing to sacrifice Booker 122(+) times in order to set things right. They certainly do have patience.

*And yes, Booker would always try to wrestle the girl away from them, because you never, ever leave a baby alone. Just... remember that, OK?

 

[1337mokro]

SNIP

Booker could rush in and wrestle her out of their hands.* It's simply easier for the Luteces to get their hands on her if Booker agrees to it, but it also puts their minds at rest that Booker did this voluntarily.
As a matter of fact, even if they didn't actively influence every card Booker drew, they still picked a universe in which he lost, as opposed to winning big and becoming a millionaire. Cumulatively speaking, that's the same thing, because they could also kidnap her from the rich-Booker universe. But I don't think the Lutece twins would have a problem with influencing every single card either. After all, they were willing to sacrifice Booker 122(+) times in order to set things right. They certainly do have patience.

*And yes, Booker would always try to wrestle the girl away from them, because you never, ever leave a baby alone. Just... remember that, OK?

You actually have to leave a baby alone quite often. For example when you put it in the crib. It's in a separate room. He leaves her alone in a room most of the day. They could literally have Comstock knock on the door, then have the brother Lutece rift into the crib room and steal the baby whilst Booker is distracted

If they scowered universes for the poor Booker.... why not scower the universe for the drunk passed out Booker? Then go in to steal the baby. You see when you give us an infinite amount of universes, with time over space time then there really is no reason WHY they HAD to lure him into a debt

I'm sure you want your explanation to be correct, I'm not saying it isn't. I'm saying it is stupid. It is needlessly complex to find a universe where Booker lost, lost big and was willing to sell his daughter rather than doing a simple distraction.

 

[maninahat]

You finally figured out the real story of Bioshock Infinite.

Nothing matters because everything has happened!

Welcome brother. To the realm of insignificance through omni-existence.

Though why would convenience be an argument AGAINST just kidnapping the kid? It is the most convenient one? Or are you saying they deliberately did not pick the most convenient of all solutions?

...Oh of course there is one. But there is also one where he WILL do it. In fact there WAS already a universe where Booker didn't become Comstock and also didn't sell his daughter, cleaned up his act and became a good father...

So the entire story is just pointless because of the multiverse.

Actually, I think it was explicitly stated by Elizabeth that in every universe where it comes up, Booker sells the baby, but only in some universes does he accept the baptism to become Comstock. It is these Comstock's that are ruining it for everyone, because they go into the other universes and (with apparently 100% success) convince the non-baptised Booker's to hand over their babies.

To break this inevitable cycle, Booker needs to take a third route and die, before he can become either a non-baptised or baptised Booker in later life. If he lives, he'll become either one guy in the process. By being dead, he can't become a Comstock, and convince a corresponding Booker to hand over the baby. Doing this leaves an odd Booker (coz I guess there are an even number of infinite dimensions). In this case, there is now a situation where one Booker does not get asked to hand over his baby, Columbia goes uncreated, and nothing bad happens.

 

[Farther than stars]

I'm sure you want your explanation to be correct, I'm not saying it isn't. I'm saying it is stupid. It is needlessly complex to find a universe where Booker lost, lost big and was willing to sell his daughter rather than doing a simple distraction.

But then that is what happened in the context of the game. Are you saying it's a plot hole? Because then I definitely agree. Although I can still buy the argument that the Luteces simply wanted Booker to be at peace with losing his child (at least in this universe; in the other one they don't care).
But I just watched The Big Picture take on events and if I thought the nihilistic interpretation of the multiple-worlds theory made this argument insignificant, MovieBob's symbolic interpretation really makes this argument insignificant. It's funny actually, how MovieBob's interpretation ultimately means that the game promotes baptism, when on the surface it criticizes organised religion.
There's no two ways about it. Bioshock Infinite has the deepest story ever set in a video game. And I challenge anyone to prove me wrong.
Also, you never leave a baby to go out and get milk, is what I meant. You don't leave it in the car, etc.

 

[abort_user]

I Despised infinite's ending.
Point one: You're drowned by Elizabeths who wouldn't have been around to drown you if you didn't become Comstock. Paradox.
Two: Silly M. Night. Shyamalan Plot Twists: The bad guy is evil you from another dimension; Elizabeth is your daughter. Really, guys? Is this really the best you can do?
Three: All that I saw throughout the game disagrees with the hypothesis that Elizabeth is the sort of person to resolutely murder Brooker by drowning him.
Four: The best part of the game was, to me, watching Elizabeth grow as a character. She's one of my favorite characters in a good while, and you've fought your way through Columbia, and both of you have faced your demons and grown as characters from it. And the ending throws all your work and trials away, consigns both of those characters to the void, and retcons both you and her into boring normal people I don't give a damn about. So what if you're doing it to stop Comstock? COMSTOCK DOESN'T FUCKING MATTER. He's the sad little king of his sad little city, and if he really does get around to sending those silly airships against the world in the 1980s as the vision showed, I'd like to watch those airships getting introduced to fighter jets and Surface-to-Air missiles. Hell, back in the Cold War mentality of those times, Columbia would probably just take a nuke to the face.

not to mention the evil you from another universe has been done several times before. it was even done in video games in Infamous.

i also wrote in another topic on this that the ending ignores its own use a multiverse. the drowning of Booker cant do anything (since time splinters at every choice), thus is insignificant.