No "Meaningless Stat Games" in Mass Effect 3

[Continuity]

RPG PLAYERS ARE VIRGINS WHO SIT IN THERE PARENTS BASEMENTS PLAYING WITH STATS ALL DAY BECAUSE THEY HAVE NO SKILLS AT ANY KIND OF SPORTS OR TWTICH SHOOTERS

OK, I think maybe you're not 100% serious with that comment given the context but even so... I'm and RPG fan and and FPS fan, the two things are not mutually exclusive. I love RPG because it creates a fantasy, and alternate reality where you can play the role of someone (or something) else and thats great, thats escapism in a nutshell. Shooters are great too, because they make for highly skilled and enjoyable competitive and cooperative games, plus guns are always cool (in fiction/games).

The "virgin in parents basement" thing is often a missile aimed at gamers in general, I don't think we really need to be firing it amongst ourselves too.

 

[bombadilillo]

ME1 was cumbersome but it didnt detract to the game imo. I just ignored a lot of the stuff and made it through fine. Like in DA1, never crafted a thing. But it was there if you wanted it. Why do you have to strip deeper layers to appeal to a wider base?

 

[uc.asc]

I was exaggerating slightly but there has been plenty of times that I've lined up the shot, fired and the bullet veers off. Unless I'm just terminally unlucky.

Hurm. We can probably get a definitive answer with a couple of minutes and a blank wall, so I'll see if I can replicate the effect next time I start a playthrough.

 

[PhoenixVanguard]

Everyone here IS aware that RPG stands for ROLE PLAYING GAME, right? And that invisible stats and digital dice roll in no way have anything to do with what defines that? Traditionally, RPGs had a myriad of stats, chance hits, and the like because they derive from tabletop Roleplaying games like Dungeons and Dragons. And Dungeons and Dragons only has those stats because if you didn't, everyone would sit around a table blocking, dodging, parrying, or just plain withstanding everything that came their way because people just don't like losing. So, in order to stop that, you come up with stats that assign them to everything a person can do, then roll to see how successful they are at it. It was a balancing mechanism that came from necessity.

Video games don't currently have that problem. You can now map all the attacking, dodging, ducking, and so on to a simple button press, or, if there are a number of commands, a quick access menu (It could even be radial, hrmn...). It can happen in real time and my success and failure is based on whether I, and this might blow your mind, successfully perform the intended action or fail to do so. Simple as that. The idea that being able to sit around and scroll through menus as being more strategic is at best misguided and at worst an excuse for people with piss poor decision making and reflexes. Having my perfect strategic plan foiled by a 5% or less chance to hit is a triumph for chaos and poor programming, not strategy and good game play.

Roleplaying is being put in a role and being able to make choices. And Bioware does that. Is the system limited? Yes. Perfect? Far from. But it's fun to play, and allows me to alter the dialogue, how individual scenarios play out, and the order in which I do things, even the ending is usually the same or very similar. I am in the role of Commander Shepard, and if THAT is less roleplaying to you than say...Final Fantasy XIII,which has stats based nonsense, but is linear, full of boring, static characters I barely control, and has a dull plot with no replayability, then I'm sorry, but you're just plain wrong. End of story.

 

[Njdevil1288]

RPG PLAYERS ARE VIRGINS WHO SIT IN THERE PARENTS BASEMENTS PLAYING WITH STATS ALL DAY BECAUSE THEY HAVE NO SKILLS AT ANY KIND OF SPORTS OR TWTICH SHOOTERS

OK, I think maybe you're not 100% serious with that comment given the context but even so... I'm and RPG fan and and FPS fan, the two things are not mutually exclusive. I love RPG because it creates a fantasy, and alternate reality where you can play the role of someone (or something) else and thats great, thats escapism in a nutshell. Shooters are great too, because they make for highly skilled and enjoyable competitive and cooperative games, plus guns are always cool (in fiction/games).

The "virgin in parents basement" thing is often a missile aimed at gamers in general, I don't think we really need to be firing it amongst ourselves too.

agreed i used that line to prove my point on how stupid it is to assume all FPS fans are dumb neanderthals. I often ask myself why is there so much hate in the gaming community its bad enough everyone else thinks were cooped up losers with no social lives now but we also gotta deal with the hate from other gaming genres.

 

[bombadilillo]

Everyone here IS aware that RPG stands for ROLE PLAYING GAME, right? And that invisible stats and digital dice roll in no way have anything to do with what defines that? Traditionally, RPGs had a myriad of stats, chance hits, and the like because they derive from tabletop Roleplaying games like Dungeons and Dragons. And Dungeons and Dragons only has those stats because if you didn't, everyone would sit around a table blocking, dodging, parrying, or just plain withstanding everything that came their way because people just don't like losing. So, in order to stop that, you come up with stats that assign them to everything a person can do, then roll to see how successful they are at it. It was a balancing mechanism that came from necessity.

Video games don't currently have that problem. You can now map all the attacking, dodging, ducking, and so on to a simple button press, or, if there are a number of commands, a quick access menu (It could even be radial, hrmn...). It can happen in real time and my success and failure is based on whether I, and this might blow your mind, successfully perform the intended action or fail to do so. Simple as that. The idea that being able to sit around and scroll through menus as being more strategic is at best misguided and at worst an excuse for people with piss poor decision making and reflexes. Having my perfect strategic plan foiled by a 5% or less chance to hit is a triumph for chaos and poor programming, not strategy and good game play.

Roleplaying is being put in a role and being able to make choices. And Bioware does that. Is the system limited? Yes. Perfect? Far from. But it's fun to play, and allows me to alter the dialogue, how individual scenarios play out, and the order in which I do things, even the ending is usually the same or very similar. I am in the role of Commander Shepard, and if THAT is less roleplaying to you than say...Final Fantasy XIII,which has stats based nonsense, but is linear, full of boring, static characters I barely control, and has a dull plot with no replayability, then I'm sorry, but you're just plain wrong. End of story.

I see your point and thats all well and good but you ahve to realize that ME started as a stat heavy more traditional RPG. So when it becomes COD with a dialog wheel people get pissed. Im sure plenty of people would want to play that but this is not what ME is about and fans are understandably pissed at it.

 

[Savber]

No "meaningless stat games" does not equate no stats. Just wanted to throw that out there.

 

[Shadesong]

snip

First of all, congratulations on your first post, sorry that it will probably be lost in the sea of this presumptuous bile.

Now, on to the main course. I'm sure it must be some form of elaborate suicide to read through these posts, because some of them truly make me feel like my brain is desperately trying to die from the sheer incomprehensible stupidity that some individuals are showing. Could someone, for the love of Christ, point out where they said they were removing all RPG elements and turning this into a GoW clone? I'm genuinely starting to doubt my ability to read now, because I didn't notice anywhere in this:

We don't want to have any meaningless behind-the-scenes stat games

Where it says that they're stripping away every RPG element in the game. The fact that some people are managing to infer so much information from this single, incredibly vague statement, is a testament to either their incredible psychic potential or their overwhelming idiocy.

They've said they want to remove 'meaningless stat games', this could mean any number of things, but to assume from that statement that Bioware have suddenly become the physical incarnation of the Shit God who sold his soul to the devil and must be burned at the stake as a heretic is a mighty far stretch. For all we know, Bioware are actually improving the stats so that everything plays a major part in the game. Do I know that they're actually improving the game in this way? No, and it would be stupid of me to claim that I do; equally stupid as some folk claiming that Bioware has become the Antichrist while screaming "HURR DURR! It's Gears of War IN SPACE!"

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheyChangedItNowItSucks
I'm just going to leave this here.

Edit:

No "meaningless stat games" does not equate no stats. Just wanted to throw that out there.

Thank you so much for being able to read, it seems that there are so very few people around here who actually can.

 

[Njdevil1288]

Everyone here IS aware that RPG stands for ROLE PLAYING GAME, right? And that invisible stats and digital dice roll in no way have anything to do with what defines that? Traditionally, RPGs had a myriad of stats, chance hits, and the like because they derive from tabletop Roleplaying games like Dungeons and Dragons. And Dungeons and Dragons only has those stats because if you didn't, everyone would sit around a table blocking, dodging, parrying, or just plain withstanding everything that came their way because people just don't like losing. So, in order to stop that, you come up with stats that assign them to everything a person can do, then roll to see how successful they are at it. It was a balancing mechanism that came from necessity.

Video games don't currently have that problem. You can now map all the attacking, dodging, ducking, and so on to a simple button press, or, if there are a number of commands, a quick access menu (It could even be radial, hrmn...). It can happen in real time and my success and failure is based on whether I, and this might blow your mind, successfully perform the intended action or fail to do so. Simple as that. The idea that being able to sit around and scroll through menus as being more strategic is at best misguided and at worst an excuse for people with piss poor decision making and reflexes. Having my perfect strategic plan foiled by a 5% or less chance to hit is a triumph for chaos and poor programming, not strategy and good game play.

Roleplaying is being put in a role and being able to make choices. And Bioware does that. Is the system limited? Yes. Perfect? Far from. But it's fun to play, and allows me to alter the dialogue, how individual scenarios play out, and the order in which I do things, even the ending is usually the same or very similar. I am in the role of Commander Shepard, and if THAT is less roleplaying to you than say...Final Fantasy XIII,which has stats based nonsense, but is linear, full of boring, static characters I barely control, and has a dull plot with no replayability, then I'm sorry, but you're just plain wrong. End of story.

I see your point and thats all well and good but you ahve to realize that ME started as a stat heavy more traditional RPG. So when it becomes COD with a dialog wheel people get pissed. Im sure plenty of people would want to play that but this is not what ME is about and fans are understandably pissed at it.

I'm asking with respect and it would be nice to get a respectdful answer back........Have you played any of the COD games (Im referring to the single player this time) please point out how mass effect 2 is similar to it.

 

[PhoenixVanguard]

I see your point and thats all well and good but you ahve to realize that ME started as a stat heavy more traditional RPG. So when it becomes COD with a dialog wheel people get pissed. Im sure plenty of people would want to play that but this is not what ME is about and fans are understandably pissed at it.

Some fans, yeah. But I've been a fan since ME1 as well. Hell, I've loved Bioware since Baldur's Gate. And I don't feel pissed in the least. When was the last time any of you played ME1? Or another popular RPG-Shooter...Deus Ex? Because I played both earlier this year, and you know what was frustrating? Having perfect aim, firing in bursts, taking my time...making every logical step to make a shot, and have a fight devolve into drawn-out bullet fests because everything I'm doing means dick if the game decides I'm going to miss no matter where I place my reticle. In blending two genres, you have to take what's best about both and make them into one coherent product, not a game that feels like there are two engines in conflict with one another. Even with ME1 and Deus Ex, by the time you get to the end, all of your guns are pinpoint accurate and they're INFINITELY more fun to play. Why should you have to grind through half a game to get to that? How is a random element shaped by stats a more valid, strategic, or fun approach than actually being placed in the situation in real time?

 

[Njdevil1288]

snip

First of all, congratulations on your first post, sorry that it will probably be lost in the sea of this presumptuous bile.

Now, on to the main course. I'm sure it must be some form of elaborate suicide to read through these posts, because some of them truly make me feel like my brain is desperately trying to die from the sheer incomprehensible stupidity that some individuals are showing. Could someone, for the love of Christ, point out where they said they were removing all RPG elements and turning this into a GoW clone? I'm genuinely starting to doubt my ability to read now, because I didn't notice anywhere in this:

We don't want to have any meaningless behind-the-scenes stat games

Where it says that they're stripping away every RPG element in the game. The fact that some people are managing to infer so much information from this single, incredibly vague statement, is a testament to either their incredible psychic potential or their overwhelming idiocy.

They've said they want to remove 'meaningless stat games', this could mean any number of things, but to assume from that statement that Bioware have suddenly become the physical incarnation of the Shit God who sold his soul to the devil and must be burned at the stake as a heretic is a mighty far stretch. For all we know, Bioware are actually improving the stats so that everything plays a major part in the game. Do I know that they're actually improving the game in this way? No, and it would be stupid of me to claim that I do; equally stupid as some folk claiming that Bioware has become the Antichrist while screaming "HURR DURR! It's Gears of War IN SPACE!"

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheyChangedItNowItSucks
I'm just going to leave this here.

Edit:

No "meaningless stat games" does not equate no stats. Just wanted to throw that out there.

Thank you so much for being able to read, it seems that there are so very few people around here who actually can.

thank you the amount of cohesive feedback is making me reconsider my first statement, Like i said i have faith that Bioware will release a kick ass game that will make my head explode from all the awesomeness I'm in it for the story I have 8 sheps 4 female 4 males and I will be there day 1 to wrap up this story, and if some things are stripped down i will be of course pissed but if the story is still great I'm in it to win it.

 

[Nimcha]

[cut]
Basically Bioware is being a bunch of self-righteous punks who are stabbing their fans in the back, and either denying it or acting like it doesn't matter.

No. Just, no. Let me try to make this as clear as I can.

BioWare makes games. You buy them if you like them. It's that simple, Bioware doesn't owe you anything. The self-righteous prick here is you, thinking that you are actually entitled to anything just because you bought a product. Buying that gives you that product and nothing more. Bioware doesn't care about you and there's no reason they should. They care about their game, and how much money it makes.

Now, to end on a friendly note, you might want to tone down the wall of texts a little, it's not a good way of getting your point across.

 

[bombadilillo]

I see your point and thats all well and good but you ahve to realize that ME started as a stat heavy more traditional RPG. So when it becomes COD with a dialog wheel people get pissed. Im sure plenty of people would want to play that but this is not what ME is about and fans are understandably pissed at it.

Some fans, yeah. But I've been a fan since ME1 as well. Hell, I've loved Bioware since Baldur's Gate. And I don't feel pissed in the least. When was the last time any of you played ME1? Or another popular RPG-Shooter...Deus Ex? Because I played both earlier this year, and you know what was frustrating? Having perfect aim, firing in bursts, taking my time...making every logical step to make a shot, and have a fight devolve into drawn-out bullet fests because everything I'm doing means dick if the game decides I'm going to miss no matter where I place my reticle. In blending two genres, you have to take what's best about both and make them into one coherent product, not a game that feels like there are two engines in conflict with one another. Even with ME1 and Deus Ex, by the time you get to the end, all of your guns are pinpoint accurate and they're INFINITELY more fun to play. Why should you have to grind through half a game to get to that? How is a random element shaped by stats a more valid, strategic, or fun approach than actually being placed in the situation in real time?

Yes well I think that accuracy is something that shouldnt be determined by stats so I agree with you there. I have had trouble getting into Stalker because on this. I think weapon sway and things like that can be stat affected, recoil as well.

 

[The.Bard]

He has a very good point. You have to draw the line somewhere. ME2 was not a RPG. The only reason it got labeled as such was the dev behind it, Bioware. Explain to me what made it a RPG. Not trying to be mean, I'm just trying to spark discussion.

Nah, dude, it's totally cool. I love intelligent discussion. Unfortunately, I've had this chat a few times more than I probably should, so I apologize if I'm blasting through any of my points briskly. I'm just getting weary of trying to use logic on the immovable brick wall that is the interwebz. I know, I know... the definition of insanity, right?

There are so many definitions one could go out and find, but to make this easy, let's go with wikipedia:

A role-playing game (RPG) is a game in which players assume the roles of characters in a fictional setting. Players take responsibility for acting out these roles within a narrative, either through literal acting, or through a process of structured decision-making or character development. Actions taken within the game succeed or fail according to a formal system of rules and guidelines.

So my take is this:

- You are taking on the ROLE of Commander Shepard. To a greater degree than most RPG's out there, you BECOME him. You choose what he looks like. You choose what he says and what he does. You are not forced into being an angtsy spikey-haired teeny bopper with mommy issues, like some whiny blonde jerkwad in a certain other RPG series...

- You also develop Shepard statistically... leveling up, getting squad loyalty, research, character class, etc.

- Your mission's success or failure is completely dependent on the CHOICES you make in that role of Commander Shepard. Missing loyalties, failed research, poor decision making... this leads to complete failure or overwhelming success.

- You also direct your squadmates, with the ability to tell them where to stand, what power to use, and can also pause the game at any time to strategically survey what's happening and change your tactics accordingly.

As for being called an RPG solely because of Bioware's track record, that's silly. The ESRB has requirements of how long they play a game for these days. They played it and said "This is an Action RPG." I'm also pretty sure Gamestop, Steam, and other retailers are going to want to make sure it's labeled in accordance with their guidelines in order to maximize their profits. Nobody is going to just say "Oh, Bioware said it's an RPG, so whatev. Slap on the RPG tag, George."

Compare the above to Gears of War, a game I enjoy, but shares nothing in common with Mass Effect outside of the cover mechanic. Shoot your way through a level. If you die, start from scratch. Rinse and repeat 10x, then watch the ending. Outside of "left" or "right", you make 0 narrative choices. You don't upgrade any weapons, you don't engage in long and meaningful dialogue with people, and nothing changes over the course of multiple playthroughs except your underwear.

So is Mass Effect an "RPG"? No. It isn't. The term is becoming worthless in today's evolving age. Is it an Action RPG, an RPG Shooter, or any sort of combination involving the word "RPG" in it? Yes. Yes it is.

 

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

snip

Then we agree. I say shooter with RPG elements and "Action RPG" isn't exactly far off from that.

 

[loremazd]

I'm so glad that my love of leveling, looting, and tactics is now relegated to "meaningless stat games".

Actually no, stat games are more the like of elemental resistences and dice rolls for critical hits. I'm not really sure what goes on under the hood of Mass effect though, seems fairly straightforward.

If anything, this just seems like an eloquent way of saying that the stat changes when you level up skills will have a more noticible effect.

Of course, you can feel free to insert your own reality to it.

 

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

I'm so glad that my love of leveling, looting, and tactics is now relegated to "meaningless stat games".

Actually no, stat games are more the like of elemental resistences and dice rolls for critical hits. I'm not really sure what goes on under the hood of Mass effect though, seems fairly straightforward.

If anything, this just seems like an eloquent way of saying that the stat changes when you level up skills will have a more noticible effect.

Of course, you can feel free to insert your own reality to it.

That is always a viable option.

 

[Soviet Heavy]

Bioware is getting senile. The king going mad in their later years before being dethrowned.

Are you going to pick him up and throw him off his throne? Heh, DeThrowned.

I know you are a nice person, so I wont be mean, but I get really irked when people mock me for typing something wrong, usually something stupid that is rarely seen written out.

Sorry, I thought you were being intentional. I apologize if this annoyed you.

 

[BeauNiddle]

Everyone here IS aware that RPG stands for ROLE PLAYING GAME, right?

#snip#

Video games don't currently have that problem. You can now map all the attacking, dodging, ducking, and so on to a simple button press, or, if there are a number of commands, a quick access menu (It could even be radial, hrmn...). It can happen in real time and my success and failure is based on whether I, and this might blow your mind, successfully perform the intended action or fail to do so. Simple as that.

#snip#

But thats our point - it's not a roleplaying game if it's purely based on the players personal skill.

In the old Hitman games I could choose multiple routes, I could choose who to leave alive or who dies but everything I did I did using my skill as a player - never the skills of the character.

In the thief games it's the same - I had a lot of choices, I had a lot of player agency but every skill was based on my skill as a player NOT as a character.

In Deus Ex, in ME, in Alpha protocol the chances of success were affected by the player actions but the main success comes from the characters skill. As the characters skill increases the target reticule becomes more accurate and more stable allowing the player to better guide the character but it's the character that matters.

Without Stats the character is never seperate to the player it's just the player in a different set of clothes possibly speaking with a different accent.

To me a role playing game is about the strategy of preparing the character to survive the danger, not on the twitch ability of myself being capable of handling the danger directly.

[This may not be relevant to ME3 since they never said they were removing stats, just unnoticable changes to stats, but I just wanted to point out that your definition of role playing is not the only viable definition]

 

[Drago-Morph]

Oh god, incoming rage. Prepare thyselves, Bioware. Hell hath no fury like an entitled gamer scorned.

hahaha. True. This still seems like Gears of War with a better story...in SPACE!

Better buy a telescope!