No Right Answer: Is Game of Thrones Overrated?
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This was the greatest NRA episode ever (I've only seen a few). I never liked the incredibly annoying guy with the beard until now. Keep it up!
Alright brethren, have you your trusty flame shields? Have you your sharpened axes? We must bare the brunt of danger, you youthful sinewy races! Yeah, I didn't like Game of Thrones, and here's why:
1). Pacing- A great writer once said that brevity is the soul of whit. In other words, every word, of every sentence, of every paragraph, of every chapter has to earn its place. If you read Watchmen, every panel holds symbolic meaning, and ads to the narrative. Tolkien built all of Middle Earth in maybe two thousand pages. Martin can't even reach Winter. If you add anything to the perfect story, then it becomes too much. If you take anything away than it doesn't make sense. In Game of Thrones I was literally able to skip entire chapters, entire character arcs, and not miss anything important. Case in point, Brianne. She bored me, so I wondered if I could skip her chapters without missing anything. I went through the entire fourth book, then went back and reread her sections. I didn't miss a thing, the story made sense without her. One could argue that character arcs should converge at the end, but they never do in Martins work. They grow out of control, like a weed, and then he kills off the characters in order to sever the plot threads. He doesn't kill characters because he's cruel, he just doesn't know what to do with them anymore. The plot, such as it is, doesn't really go anywhere, and when it does it moves at a snails pace. I noted the major points in every book, such as Ned dying, and found that they were few and far between. The important material doesn't usually occur until the end. As a result only the first book had good pacing.
2). Narrative focus- There are two kinds of writers, gardeners and architects. Gardner's start with an idea, and let it grow. Architects plan everything before writing. Gardening can work, but it's difficult because the writer himself doesn't usually know where the plot is going. If you don't know where the plot is going, then it's difficult to build your story towards a reasonable conclusion, because there's no direction. If you write this way then you need to constantly go back and rewrite everything so that it all makes sense. Martin doesn't do this, and as a result his writing has become a bloated mess that he can't control. He gets off topic from the main plot constantly, and it doesn't work. What's the main plot? Is it the frost zombies who we barely see? Is it Danaerys, who is STILL stuck in another continent? Is it the warring factions of Westeros? Is it the rise of this mysterious Red God? All of this should have been resolved by now. Instead, not only has it not been resolved, but Martin has actually EXPANDED it with that nonsense in Dorne. So apparently we're ripe for another civil war after the one that took three books to resolve. If there isn't a civil war, then why was it there? Basically, he writes it as a t.v. series, which makes sense because that's his area of expertise. Every book is a season, and he makes up what happens when he reaches that book/season. Unfortunately you can't write great literature that way, and in this case it's an unorganized mess with no clear focus.
3). Theme- what is this series about? No, I'm not talking about the plot, I'm talking about the message. I get a vague nihilistic undertone to the work, but it's not organized into anything concrete. He seems to feel that the world, or at least the medieval world, is a dark and terrible place, but the only way he knows how to express this is by killing off characters, which is lazy. Berserk handles similar material, but in a sophisticated way, so that you clearly understand what the book is about, and what the writers stance is on the subject.
4). Sexuality- Yes, this gets its own topic. Blatant fan service with no relation to the plot. If it has no relation to the plot, it needs to be cut. When Guinevere had sex with Lancelot, it ruined her marriage and brought the Kingdom to a standstill. When Griffith had sex with Princess Charlotte it ruined his career, got him sent to prison, got his men killed and sent into exile, and changed the lives of every character in the story. Some of these scenes were very graphic, but they were all necessary to their respective stories. This is not true for Game of Thrones, where they often read like blatant pornography. They actively detract from the story, and sometimes make characters act in ways they wouldn't normally act in order to include fan service, which breaks immersion. The fourteen(?) year old Dani is the perfect example. She has sex with a handmaid just after her family was killed, and she was supposed to be in mourning. Some fans argue that children were married off at that age, which is true, but in this case it really is just pornography featuring a teenage girl. It was never suggested that she was bisexual before this. He could have explored this relationship more deeply, but instead the issue is never brought up again. It happens again with Cersei.
5). Characters- Well written characters who never do anything. Dani is stuck in the wrong continent, where nothing is happening in relation to the main story. Brienne never does anything plot relevant. Everything house Stark did was rendered pointless after the Red Wedding. Jon is killed(?) because his brothers are loyal to their oaths, after his predecessor was killed because his brothers weren't loyal to their oaths. This is bad, since his arc was the only one going anywhere. Arya is a great character, but all she does through the first four books is get kidnapped, I counted, five times, and occasionally escape. Sansa has no character agency, and spends her time being kidnapped and having no relation to the plot. Everything Theon does is irrelevant after the Red Wedding, house Stark would fall regardless. The characters progress at a snails pace. In chapter one of Watchmen, just twenty pages, we meet every character, get introduced to the world, and have a clear understanding of what the plot is. In Game of Thrones it's still not clear, not because of excellent writing, but because of chaotic pacing.
Read berserk.
1). Pacing- A great writer once said that brevity is the soul of whit. In other words, every word, of every sentence, of every paragraph, of every chapter has to earn its place. If you read Watchmen, every panel holds symbolic meaning, and ads to the narrative. Tolkien built all of Middle Earth in maybe two thousand pages. Martin can't even reach Winter. If you add anything to the perfect story, then it becomes too much. If you take anything away than it doesn't make sense. In Game of Thrones I was literally able to skip entire chapters, entire character arcs, and not miss anything important. Case in point, Brianne. She bored me, so I wondered if I could skip her chapters without missing anything. I went through the entire fourth book, then went back and reread her sections. I didn't miss a thing, the story made sense without her. One could argue that character arcs should converge at the end, but they never do in Martins work. They grow out of control, like a weed, and then he kills off the characters in order to sever the plot threads. He doesn't kill characters because he's cruel, he just doesn't know what to do with them anymore. The plot, such as it is, doesn't really go anywhere, and when it does it moves at a snails pace. I noted the major points in every book, such as Ned dying, and found that they were few and far between. The important material doesn't usually occur until the end. As a result only the first book had good pacing.
2). Narrative focus- There are two kinds of writers, gardeners and architects. Gardner's start with an idea, and let it grow. Architects plan everything before writing. Gardening can work, but it's difficult because the writer himself doesn't usually know where the plot is going. If you don't know where the plot is going, then it's difficult to build your story towards a reasonable conclusion, because there's no direction. If you write this way then you need to constantly go back and rewrite everything so that it all makes sense. Martin doesn't do this, and as a result his writing has become a bloated mess that he can't control. He gets off topic from the main plot constantly, and it doesn't work. What's the main plot? Is it the frost zombies who we barely see? Is it Danaerys, who is STILL stuck in another continent? Is it the warring factions of Westeros? Is it the rise of this mysterious Red God? All of this should have been resolved by now. Instead, not only has it not been resolved, but Martin has actually EXPANDED it with that nonsense in Dorne. So apparently we're ripe for another civil war after the one that took three books to resolve. If there isn't a civil war, then why was it there? Basically, he writes it as a t.v. series, which makes sense because that's his area of expertise. Every book is a season, and he makes up what happens when he reaches that book/season. Unfortunately you can't write great literature that way, and in this case it's an unorganized mess with no clear focus.
3). Theme- what is this series about? No, I'm not talking about the plot, I'm talking about the message. I get a vague nihilistic undertone to the work, but it's not organized into anything concrete. He seems to feel that the world, or at least the medieval world, is a dark and terrible place, but the only way he knows how to express this is by killing off characters, which is lazy. Berserk handles similar material, but in a sophisticated way, so that you clearly understand what the book is about, and what the writers stance is on the subject.
4). Sexuality- Yes, this gets its own topic. Blatant fan service with no relation to the plot. If it has no relation to the plot, it needs to be cut. When Guinevere had sex with Lancelot, it ruined her marriage and brought the Kingdom to a standstill. When Griffith had sex with Princess Charlotte it ruined his career, got him sent to prison, got his men killed and sent into exile, and changed the lives of every character in the story. Some of these scenes were very graphic, but they were all necessary to their respective stories. This is not true for Game of Thrones, where they often read like blatant pornography. They actively detract from the story, and sometimes make characters act in ways they wouldn't normally act in order to include fan service, which breaks immersion. The fourteen(?) year old Dani is the perfect example. She has sex with a handmaid just after her family was killed, and she was supposed to be in mourning. Some fans argue that children were married off at that age, which is true, but in this case it really is just pornography featuring a teenage girl. It was never suggested that she was bisexual before this. He could have explored this relationship more deeply, but instead the issue is never brought up again. It happens again with Cersei.
5). Characters- Well written characters who never do anything. Dani is stuck in the wrong continent, where nothing is happening in relation to the main story. Brienne never does anything plot relevant. Everything house Stark did was rendered pointless after the Red Wedding. Jon is killed(?) because his brothers are loyal to their oaths, after his predecessor was killed because his brothers weren't loyal to their oaths. This is bad, since his arc was the only one going anywhere. Arya is a great character, but all she does through the first four books is get kidnapped, I counted, five times, and occasionally escape. Sansa has no character agency, and spends her time being kidnapped and having no relation to the plot. Everything Theon does is irrelevant after the Red Wedding, house Stark would fall regardless. The characters progress at a snails pace. In chapter one of Watchmen, just twenty pages, we meet every character, get introduced to the world, and have a clear understanding of what the plot is. In Game of Thrones it's still not clear, not because of excellent writing, but because of chaotic pacing.
Read berserk.
Internet, hold... Hold... HOLD... HOLD!!!!... NOW!!!
well I have to give you points for bravery, at least they guy from 'Raidohead's : Just' video tried to keep his hatred of GoT to himself.
Most of your argument seems to be GoT isn't simple, quick & easy. much of TV is dumbing down, so now you can normally miss episode & half watch without losing anything important & your problem is not all TV's like that. It's OK to not like things that are hard & not want to be challenged, but to HATE GoT, trigonometry, Shakespeare, ect just leads to the film Idiocracy. Just beware if you start to hate AND fear intelligence then you will have to register as a republican.
P.S. I call racism for your whole all white people look a like rant. Do you have any idea how hard it is to be white with the sunscreen, freckles & the fear of a joke been misunderstood as a racism. will the oppression never end or even begin.
well I have to give you points for bravery, at least they guy from 'Raidohead's : Just' video tried to keep his hatred of GoT to himself.
Most of your argument seems to be GoT isn't simple, quick & easy. much of TV is dumbing down, so now you can normally miss episode & half watch without losing anything important & your problem is not all TV's like that. It's OK to not like things that are hard & not want to be challenged, but to HATE GoT, trigonometry, Shakespeare, ect just leads to the film Idiocracy. Just beware if you start to hate AND fear intelligence then you will have to register as a republican.
P.S. I call racism for your whole all white people look a like rant. Do you have any idea how hard it is to be white with the sunscreen, freckles & the fear of a joke been misunderstood as a racism. will the oppression never end or even begin.
There seems to be more "Waa, you're wrong!" than actual rebuttals.
The series does have it's problems, but that comes from cramming 40 hours worth of material in to 10. If each series were 20 eps, it'd be fine.
The series does have it's problems, but that comes from cramming 40 hours worth of material in to 10. If each series were 20 eps, it'd be fine.
You mentioned Berserk a lot in your post in relation to things like theme and fanservice and I wanted to take a minute and address some of the things you mentioned.Fox12 said:
About theme:
Game of Thrones isn't even close to being finished yet and Berserk is pretty clearly getting towards it's final stretch. As it stands now asking what the theme is for GoT is like asking what the theme of Berserk is halfway through the Golden Age arc. We don't really know because it hasn't really gotten to that point yet.
So far the show is a pretty good deconstruction of common fantasy tropes. The world presented in Game of Thrones has little room for black or white and is filled with grey. There are also several subthemes about things like hubris and honor and loyalty to ones family, but those are all character moments rather than speaking to what the show and the books are actually about.
Even if the show doesn't tie it together with some kind of theme, that doesn't mean it's a bad show. There's something to be said about a good story told in an interesting or creative way.
On "Fan Service"(in quotation marks because fan service doesn't traditionally mean nudity for the sake of titillating it's audience, the term was co-opted by fans of anime and manga):
Berserk has tons of fanservice, some of it necessary and some of it isn't. Just like some of nudity and sexuality in Game of Thrones is necessary and some of it isn't. Berserk opens with completely unnecessary and out of character sex scene, there are numerous rape attempts on Caska after Golden Age that are completely unnecessary, in fact she's naked a lot in the manga. GoT has this too mind, but I feel like Martin (and by extension the show-runners) have toned this down considerably in the later books/seasons. I actually can't think of any unnecessary nudity or sex in the books in the last 2, or the last 2 seasons of the show.
Gonna take a minute and address some of your other points as well.
On Pacing:
I actually only think the later books suffer from any sort of pacing issues. I'm hoping the show helps to resolve this, because it's a major downside to book 4 and most of book 5. Martin wrote himself into a bit of a corner and he need time to get certain characters to places in the world. Generally I think your beefs with the pacing have more to do with the books than the show, for the most part the show cuts out the fat and leaves the better parts of the books.
On Narrative Focus:
I don't agree about the Gardener vs Architect bit here, because I think it oversimplifies the writing process and writers themselves into neat little categories, which people love to do.
In reality I think it's a lot harder to pull off the kind of focus found in Watchmen, and even then there are parts of that book that don't make a huge amount of narrative sense(I don't think the giant squid thing has ever worked, even when he did properly set it up). Even so, I think comparing a really good book and television series to quite possibly the greatest graphic novel ever written might be a little disingenuous.
I think Game of Thrones is getting there, and I think we'll start to see things coming together in the last two books. Right now though, what you're doing is like reading half of Watchmen and then wondering why it's taking them so long to just end the story.
On Sexuality:
I wanted to focus on the couple of examples you provided in your post. Namely this:
Dany has sex with her handmaid after Viserys was killed, her older brother who had been toturing her her entire life. Free from his dominating presence and influence she did what a lot of teenagers do; experimented. It is brought up later as well, it's states pretty clearly that she doesn't like women, mostly when she's pining for that Daario Naharis guy.
And for Cersei that's another important part of her character. Cersei wishes she was born a man, because she feels that her gender holds her back from achieving what she really wants. Her chapters spend a lot of time talking about how she wished she was born a boy, and extension of that is her affair with a woman. It's fairly short in the books, mostly because she doesn't like it that much, but it's totally a physical manifestation of Cersei's desire to have power over others.
The two months is because we film in batches. We just started a batch, so we have a lot of episodes to go through before we film again. Since Chris lives 4 hours away from Kyle and Dan, batch filming is a necessity.Kenjitsuka said:
Also, it gives people who choose to send video clips time to create them. Visit is hard! (Dan cries into his jack and coke)
I absoluteley agree with you and with Chris. I started watching GoT for Sean Bean, the dragons, zombies and magic and all I got was politics and sex and politics and sex and more politics and sex...flying_whimsy said:
Some people like political dramas but I'm not one of them. The sex scenes doesn't fill any function except for cheap porn (well, expensive HBO porn with high production values). And the writer seems to get off on all the fan tears by making a point of killing ALL the cool and likeable characters.
I can't watch GoT because I don't want to get invested and then have my favourite characters (and the promise of winter, zombies and dragons) killed in horrible ways so I think I made the right call to stop watching after half a season.
You made excellent points, some of which I agree with and some I don't. I will say, quickly, that I don't actually hate Game of Thrones. I do get frustrated with it, because I think it had a lot of squandered potential, and because I do, in fact, think it is overrated. It is not as bad as, say, Eragon or Sword of Truth, however, and it will hopefully force fantasy writers to think outside the box and improve upon some of the ideas that Martin brought up.daibakuha said:
First, I would argue that GoT is fairly close to the ending, as Martin claims there are only two books left. In fact, it may be closer to the end then Berserk. However, my main issue is the amount of time it has taken him to reach this point in the story. A lot of what he writes reads like unnecessary filler, and frankly the series should have been concluded after 3 or 4 books. This is unfortunate, as the first book really was a gem. The show may be better, I admit I haven't seen all of it, and so it is unfair to criticize it in the same way I critique the novels.
I will stick with my theme criticism, though, because that seems to be something that people actively talk about it. When people discuss the nihilistic, dark and gritty nature of the world, they are discussing a certain world view, and thus they are discussing thematic material. While the series isn't finished yet, the author has admitted that he isn't sure how he plans to reach the ending. If this is the case then I think it's fair to criticize the lack of clear theme, since the author himself doesn't know where it's all headed. I suppose my complain, then, is that a lot of what happens feels arbitrary and pointless.
You're right about Berserk, I'm sorry to say, as there are irritating instances of unnecessary sexuality (I won't say fanservice). On the whole, though, I think it's mostly well done, and most of the issues I have with Berserk don't occur until after the Blackswordsman arc. I'm still hoping the series picks up again, as it's clearly going somewhere. GoT is getting better concerning this, but I find it dishonest when the occasional fan praises it for its violence and sexuality, as if violence and sexuality made a series mature in and of themselves. I think this is what the video was trying to argue, and what I was trying to argue as well. It's fine to explore human sexuality in media, it's a part of life, and should be freely discussed and talked about. However, I don't think a work should be praised for for including this material if it serves no narrative purpose. This goes for all works, including Berserk, which I love, but which certainly has its occasional flaws.
You gave me some food for thought though, and made some interesting points.
I think just about every one of his criticisms can be remedied with one simple action; don't power-watch 3 seasons at the same time.
It isn't an exam, don't try to cram 3 years of show into a week and be surprised when you can't assimilate it all. You should try watching a series like a series and not like a 30-hour movie and then make up your mind. Seriously, there are valid criticisms to be made about Game of Thrones but none of them were in that video. I am truly disappoint.
Also; everyone looks the same because they're white? Seriously? So if I can't tell apart all the asians in Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon that means it's a bad movie, not that I'm lazy and possibly racist? Does this mean that Band of Brothers is even worse since they're all white too plus they also dress the same & have similar haircuts?
It isn't an exam, don't try to cram 3 years of show into a week and be surprised when you can't assimilate it all. You should try watching a series like a series and not like a 30-hour movie and then make up your mind. Seriously, there are valid criticisms to be made about Game of Thrones but none of them were in that video. I am truly disappoint.
Also; everyone looks the same because they're white? Seriously? So if I can't tell apart all the asians in Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon that means it's a bad movie, not that I'm lazy and possibly racist? Does this mean that Band of Brothers is even worse since they're all white too plus they also dress the same & have similar haircuts?
I'm with you - Game of Thrones books are not even good past a certain (pick any point in book 3 or onward) point. I couldn't stick with the show at all. I don't really get why it's this held-up thing overall, but hey - I'm not hating on people who like it myself either, but I'm not a fan and I don't see a compelling reason to convert to the "like it" group.
My problem reading the books was that the powerful device of killing a main character is just used so frequently and becomes almost formulaic that I couldn't care enough to keep investing myself in the story because I couldn't keep investing in the characters - and that's a shame, because I see the potential in the story and I see the writing has quality and the whole idea of the world is intriguing in its construction elements themselves.
Then again, I had the same disconnect with the Walking Dead graphic novels and series. It got ridiculous on itself at the end of the first compilation - specifically when they introduce the Governor - and as for the show, well I couldn't stop shouting "These people are too stupid to be survivors of the zombie apocalypse" after Lorie or whatever Rick's wife's name was - didn't act like a grown up and just tell her previously thought to be dead husband what had transpired while he was presumed dead. Like an adult. Like someone in a survival situation. Like an intelligent person really - it's not that hard to say: "Look hun, I love you I'm so glad you're alive, but this happened when the world turned upside-down and we should all three of us decide how to proceed from this point because things were what they were and all our lives depend on this group functioning so let's clear the air."
My problem reading the books was that the powerful device of killing a main character is just used so frequently and becomes almost formulaic that I couldn't care enough to keep investing myself in the story because I couldn't keep investing in the characters - and that's a shame, because I see the potential in the story and I see the writing has quality and the whole idea of the world is intriguing in its construction elements themselves.
Then again, I had the same disconnect with the Walking Dead graphic novels and series. It got ridiculous on itself at the end of the first compilation - specifically when they introduce the Governor - and as for the show, well I couldn't stop shouting "These people are too stupid to be survivors of the zombie apocalypse" after Lorie or whatever Rick's wife's name was - didn't act like a grown up and just tell her previously thought to be dead husband what had transpired while he was presumed dead. Like an adult. Like someone in a survival situation. Like an intelligent person really - it's not that hard to say: "Look hun, I love you I'm so glad you're alive, but this happened when the world turned upside-down and we should all three of us decide how to proceed from this point because things were what they were and all our lives depend on this group functioning so let's clear the air."
It's not meant for normal people, or even people of above average intelligence. Or even for geniuses. You don't have to be smart to follow the characters in the show or in the books. I'd actually say it's actually meant for people who don't particularly care one way or another about Fantasy, Epic or otherwise; it's meant for people who are political junkies and history junkies. For Archaeologists and Sociologists. For Psychologists and Police Detectives. For would-be Novelists and Writers.Tiamat666 said:
Essentially? It's meant for people who put puzzles together without having the picture to go by. For people who like to grab a box of random LEGO's then make something up for themselves. For people who don't look at overall plots but look at individual plots, seeing how they come together to create the narrative of an age.
It very well might be. Or it might end up in the "Started great... ended terribly." with shows like LOST, book series like the Sword of Truth and games series like Mass Effect. LOST became extremely complex and interwoven, with each character being connected to each other character in some way going back years. The Island was full of mysteries that were added week after week, making it at least as complex as every other character. Wheel of Time added layers of complexity to the world over the first four or five books at a pace that had most readers hungry for more. SoT didn't last quite as long as WoT, but the first two or three books were good at adding complexity as well. Mass Effect created so much complexity it wrote itself into a tiny corner by the end of the series.Tiamat666 said:
At this point I would be very happy if it ended up in the "Started great... went nowhere for a very long time, then ended in a meh way." like WoT. (Minus GRR Martin dying before the series is over, naturally. I do want to see him end it himself... but damnitall, I want him to finally end the damn books already.) I'd much prefer that it went out with a bang and ended up being a legitimately Great series of books. My fear is that it's going to end up being like LOST, where the high promise of the early parts couldn't be lived up to at the end, and people will go "ASOFAI." as short hand for "Book series that started great but ended terribly - not worth the time and effort."
Personally I don't think it belongs in the same category as Lord of the Rings or other "Epic Fantasy" series because I don't believe ASOFAI is similar enough to the regular Epic Fantasy. Epic Fantasy - and nearly all Fiction - follow similar structures. Protagonist. Antagonist. Conflict. Resolution. Continue to next book with new Antagonist, new Conflict. Resolution. Continue until series is done. That's the general structure for Fiction of all genres, not just Fantasy or Epic Fantasy. And quite obviously ASOFIA doesn't follow that structure.
That isn't to say it's a bad series, or that it isn't a potentially great series - it very well might end up being both. But it's something different than the Epic Fantasy we've been dealing with for thousands of years (to stir up even more of a hornets nest, just look at the stories in the Bible and Mythology for other examples of Epic Fantasy) so it's unfair to ASOFAI as well as other works of conventional Fantasy to lump them into the same category because there are some minor shared features (magic, fantastical creatures) which are barely a part of ASOFAI (and could be removed without destroying the overall story to date; try changing all of the characters in LoTR to Humans and the story falls apart.).
ASOFAI should be in an entirely new category - Period Fiction (Fantasy/Sci-Fi), which is a description of events set in a particular period of time. It is not expected to be a "Story" in the same way that reading about the Peloponnesian War isn't a "Story". It is not expected to have Antagonists and Protagonists, merely Major and Minor Actors. There is no "Plot" to advance in the traditional sense of "Plot Advancement", merely actions which influence other actions. And because it is Fantasy/Sci-Fi, Magic and Advanced Technology are accepted - but are not a focus for the story, merely accessories.
Whilst I don't consider myself a "fan" of the show. I like discussions like these so I will bite.
I'm not sure how the setting of the show is confusing. They establish the White Walkers as being legendary, so legendary that people don't think they will ever come back. Same with the dragons. The show's scarce use of fantasy is used to show how rare fantasy is in the world.
On what the show is about, it's like you're saying, it's about many things. It's about politics, relationships, battles, etc. The show does not need to be about one thing. Whether it does it effectively is of course subjective.
On the names, I will have to give you a point here. Some of the characters aren't well established and it becomes a bit hectic (Jorr, Varus, Renly, Barristan, for example). But the point on the characters looking similar? Come on man, unless you have prosopagnosia this would be an issue for every single tv show and/or movie in existence. In the case that you DO have prosopagnosia, I hope that I haven't offended you.
On the Red Wedding, it's only going to be shocking to you if you're invested. Rob's been fighting a war and Caitlyn's been trying to rescue her daughter. They have been doing things that matter to them, but you're only going to care if you care about them, so it'd understandable if it wasn't effective.
On the sex. Yes, sometimes it's there for the sake of sex, other times it's there to add more flavor to the setting. When you're building a world, you want to show that the characters actually have a life outside their lives as characters. Sex is one of the ways you can show that.
I'm not sure how the setting of the show is confusing. They establish the White Walkers as being legendary, so legendary that people don't think they will ever come back. Same with the dragons. The show's scarce use of fantasy is used to show how rare fantasy is in the world.
On what the show is about, it's like you're saying, it's about many things. It's about politics, relationships, battles, etc. The show does not need to be about one thing. Whether it does it effectively is of course subjective.
On the names, I will have to give you a point here. Some of the characters aren't well established and it becomes a bit hectic (Jorr, Varus, Renly, Barristan, for example). But the point on the characters looking similar? Come on man, unless you have prosopagnosia this would be an issue for every single tv show and/or movie in existence. In the case that you DO have prosopagnosia, I hope that I haven't offended you.
On the Red Wedding, it's only going to be shocking to you if you're invested. Rob's been fighting a war and Caitlyn's been trying to rescue her daughter. They have been doing things that matter to them, but you're only going to care if you care about them, so it'd understandable if it wasn't effective.
On the sex. Yes, sometimes it's there for the sake of sex, other times it's there to add more flavor to the setting. When you're building a world, you want to show that the characters actually have a life outside their lives as characters. Sex is one of the ways you can show that.
i understand the points you make chris, they're very valid. however, i still like this show despite those flaws.
first off, yes the sex scenes are stupid and unnescesarry.
second, about the names and big cast of characters that's hard to follow. i've never experienced it as that confusing. (i haven't read a song of ice and fire so it's not from having a headstart) maybe it's because of a lack of experience with big epic fantasy series, but for me it was always very clear. however, i don't know if that's the experience for the majority of the viewers.
thirdly, yes, the series is a bit to slow and shifts around a bit too much. like your example that someone does something significant and then we only see that character 9 episodes later. this is one of the things that has bothered me often. this is probably a consequence of te source material. it's just so much that it's hard to condense to a 'short' tv format. despite this flaw, i'm still very interested in the characters and look forward to what is going to happen every next episode. it might even be a good point of the series in a way to constantly supply us with cliffhangers. the only thing that drives me crazy is WHEN ARE THOSE DRAGONS FINALLY GOING TO MELT A WHOLE CITY OR ARMY??
the big thing that's special about this series and what makes it such a 'thing' is that it's quite unique. we haven't seen that much gigantic fantasy tv shows with such big production values, such a great story and such grand scope. it's like watching a small lord of the rings movie every week. the shifting focus of the series also attracts a lot of people. because we get a tiny bit of every facet, there is something for everyone. like mystery? there's a buttload of that. like fantasy? well, it's a (for the moment low)-fantasy world. like political drama and backstabbing? welcome to kings landing! like bewbs? go ahead, the tissues are right there
. like battle scenes? we get one every now and then. and so forth
edit: on the red wedding. i didn't find it that exciting either. i was even partially glad that bigheaded rob was killed... i only felt bad about his little wolfie
first off, yes the sex scenes are stupid and unnescesarry.
second, about the names and big cast of characters that's hard to follow. i've never experienced it as that confusing. (i haven't read a song of ice and fire so it's not from having a headstart) maybe it's because of a lack of experience with big epic fantasy series, but for me it was always very clear. however, i don't know if that's the experience for the majority of the viewers.
thirdly, yes, the series is a bit to slow and shifts around a bit too much. like your example that someone does something significant and then we only see that character 9 episodes later. this is one of the things that has bothered me often. this is probably a consequence of te source material. it's just so much that it's hard to condense to a 'short' tv format. despite this flaw, i'm still very interested in the characters and look forward to what is going to happen every next episode. it might even be a good point of the series in a way to constantly supply us with cliffhangers. the only thing that drives me crazy is WHEN ARE THOSE DRAGONS FINALLY GOING TO MELT A WHOLE CITY OR ARMY??
the big thing that's special about this series and what makes it such a 'thing' is that it's quite unique. we haven't seen that much gigantic fantasy tv shows with such big production values, such a great story and such grand scope. it's like watching a small lord of the rings movie every week. the shifting focus of the series also attracts a lot of people. because we get a tiny bit of every facet, there is something for everyone. like mystery? there's a buttload of that. like fantasy? well, it's a (for the moment low)-fantasy world. like political drama and backstabbing? welcome to kings landing! like bewbs? go ahead, the tissues are right there
. like battle scenes? we get one every now and then. and so forth edit: on the red wedding. i didn't find it that exciting either. i was even partially glad that bigheaded rob was killed... i only felt bad about his little wolfie
Yes. Yes it does.Vigormortis said:
I generally assume it's the same way people forget not everyone shares their interests, so they don't immediately notice when everyone else in the room is clearly bored by the way they've been going on about X hobby for the last hour since, if it interests the speaker, it must be interesting to everyone they're talking to, right? Right, guys? Right??
>.>
(shrugs) I never got into it myself and I don't really plan to. Whatever its virtues or flaws, no-one's really managed to actually articulate to me why it's good and I should watch it.
I do generally like Game of Thrones episodes on first watch. But after watching them at flatmate's houses while knowing all the story beats (and only really being at most half invested)the show's delivery takes on this weird stage aspect where I find myself quite obviously aware that there's artificial fakery involved.
Maybe I'm not articulating my point quite how I'd like to but take for instance a scene with Tyrion and Varys, there they are riffing off each other with their trademark senses of humour. The sound cues provide the audience with not so subtle clues into who has the upper hand in a conversation, one person gains the upper hand before the other stumps them with some broody witticism that leaves one of the two looking off into the distance while in close focus while the other is in a mid shot with a passive view at some other section of the screen. The moody music reaches it's endpoint while the screen fades to black.
This to me is an all too common cycle in GoT and one that I tire of.
The show obviously has great production values but for a world that's supposed to be so gritty the actual portrayal of it is often too smooth for me.
I'm sure other scenes do things differently which does break up the monotony yet I do think that the show structures certain scenes with an all too similar format that's a little too polished/a little too neat . Like Chris' example of 'jazzing up' political broody scenes with a bit of T&A.
Eh I'll still be watching 4th season, I might even rewatch the others. But the show does have too many flaws for me to be anywhere near something like Agents of Shield, Breaking Bad, The Wire, or even Arrow.
Maybe I'm not articulating my point quite how I'd like to but take for instance a scene with Tyrion and Varys, there they are riffing off each other with their trademark senses of humour. The sound cues provide the audience with not so subtle clues into who has the upper hand in a conversation, one person gains the upper hand before the other stumps them with some broody witticism that leaves one of the two looking off into the distance while in close focus while the other is in a mid shot with a passive view at some other section of the screen. The moody music reaches it's endpoint while the screen fades to black.
This to me is an all too common cycle in GoT and one that I tire of.
The show obviously has great production values but for a world that's supposed to be so gritty the actual portrayal of it is often too smooth for me.
I'm sure other scenes do things differently which does break up the monotony yet I do think that the show structures certain scenes with an all too similar format that's a little too polished/a little too neat . Like Chris' example of 'jazzing up' political broody scenes with a bit of T&A.
Eh I'll still be watching 4th season, I might even rewatch the others. But the show does have too many flaws for me to be anywhere near something like Agents of Shield, Breaking Bad, The Wire, or even Arrow.
It feels so good hearing these things voiced out loud on a popular channel ^_^
I've fallen asleep in front on most of the episodes of this show. I wanted to stop after season 2 but then the whole buzz about s3e9 was so strong I had to see it because no one would tell me what it was about... I expected real crazy stuff : time travel ? Flying saucers ? Finally winter ??? But nooooooo, just more killing, like it wasn't clear already that the show was about "no one cannot die" after season 1... The worst is I sit through all the lazy tortureporn in season 3 when I should've skipped through to ep9 just to be done with it. NO SEASON 4 FOR ME ! Hashtag this, tweeter !
I've fallen asleep in front on most of the episodes of this show. I wanted to stop after season 2 but then the whole buzz about s3e9 was so strong I had to see it because no one would tell me what it was about... I expected real crazy stuff : time travel ? Flying saucers ? Finally winter ??? But nooooooo, just more killing, like it wasn't clear already that the show was about "no one cannot die" after season 1... The worst is I sit through all the lazy tortureporn in season 3 when I should've skipped through to ep9 just to be done with it. NO SEASON 4 FOR ME ! Hashtag this, tweeter !