Not Greedy, Just Clueless

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Otaku World Order

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The more I think about it, the more this makes sense. I seriously doubt that EA was MWAHAHA-ing in some Bond villain lair, plotting to pull the rug out from under us with SimCity's launch. Why would they? They've had so many PR nightmares in the last year, I've lost count. It feels like some bean counters decided to take a chance and save money on servers rather then make sure they had plenty of extra server space, just in case.

Too much focus on quick results for the shareholders and not enough on building a loyal customer base.
 

Treblaine

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Bad Jim said:
Treblaine said:
Games generally cost less than movies to make, so WHY DO PUBLISHERS WANT TO CHARGE x15 AS MUCH!!?!?
It's about how the cost of production is covered by the consumer. Not only are there more people who enjoy movies, but it's possible to see a lot more of them. You can watch hundreds of movies a year, so they can make a lot of money at low prices. But games, even today, take more time to get through, so you can only really justify a couple of dozen purchases a year, so the games industry must charge more per purchase. Steam sales trick people into buying games they'll rarely/never play, but even then I doubt many people buy a game a day, while it's quite possible to see a movie every day.

Oooh, so you are saying games simply won't sell in higher numbers and they HAVE to go for $60... hmm. That's obviously wrong and I can't possibly see how you'd think that, or even if you really do think that but you are saying that just to fool others.


It's obvious this isn't the case looking at the "tie-ratio" for consoles and how pathetically low. Tie ratio is how many games are bought on average for each console. Guess how many? For Xbox 360... Ten. The Xbox 360 has been on sale for almost 8 years and on average each console owner has on average bought only 10 new games. TEN! In 8 years!

http://www.vgchartz.com/analysis/platform_totals/Tie-Ratio/Global/

There are 52 weeks in the year, all but the longest games can be played through in a week. The few that take longer are offset by those that can be completed on a Sunday afternoon. The average Xbox 360 user has not been limited to only 10 games by not having the time in the day to play more, they have been limited by the price.

One thing you VERY RARELY hear is:

"no I'm not going to get this awesome new game that I can easily afford, as I still am swamped from all the other $60 games I've bought".

Never heard that. What I hear over and over again is:

"Yeah it looks interesting and I'd play it, but I'm going to wait till it's cheaper, pre-owned or something. Or till I have some money."



I didn't make this, I found it.

You don't find memes complaining about how games are too long and they are limited from playing more games from how long each one is.

How many people do you know visit the cinema more often than they go home?

Their PC or games console is in their home and they can play it any time. Games may be longer but it's far more convenient to get through the hours in a game on a home console or PC than at the movies, and this is for new releases, new games you can play at home right away, cinema releases take many months to get a home release.

Steam sales trick people into buying games they'll rarely/never play
Trick?!?! I'm fed up of people posting such blatantly derailing nonsense, it should be a bannable offence.

There is not trickery at all, and you know that, everything is clear and there are no illusions and you know that full well and said it anyway.

For one, I will always have these games, I don't have to play them now. And I almost certainly won't play them if I have not yet finished prequels in the series. There is satisfaction alone in owning these games free to play them any time I want and that "voted with my wallet" on that game. That I will pay for it, but pay a fair price.
 

Therumancer

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I tend to disagree because what EA is doing is removing things from products, or using the products themselves as platforms to sell you things. The microtransaction system added into Dead Space for example wasn't the equivilent of just adding another charge, it was creating an entire game mechanic based around making the experience less ideal
unless you paid them additional money. If your a really good gamer, you might be able to get by without paying EA a dime, but for a lot of gamers they will wind up being undergeared or suffering from bad desicians in choosing what to make and upgrade, unless they exploit a glitch to "grind" money amounting to potentially hours of wasted busywork to progress, or pay EA to move on. The idea being that someone who already paid $60 is going to want to finish the game they already paid for (especially since they can't get a refund) and doesn't want to spend hours grinding, so they will pay money in order to progress in the game. EA's own people "slipped" recently in flat out saying that they intended to put these kinds of microtransactions into all of their games, to keep people paying for a product they already bought. EA backpedaled on this (not that anyone was buying it) but the damage was done, and we peaked behind the curtain.

See, with Valve it can be argued they are "Greedy" as well, but at the end of the day they are giving you complete products for less money than you would pay otherwise. Sure they are exploiting impulse buyers, but they aren't selling you a product that is simply a gateway to try and get you to pay more money for what should be basic functionality.

Also, the thing is with EA's "problems" is that they do not seem to be genuinely failing so much as not being able to meet their own self-imposed expectations for success. Like most big corperations they engage in layoffs and other behaviors rather than actually dealing with lower profits. What's more a lot of their failures are the direct result of some of their greedier plans backfiring on them, mismanaging their brands, or just flat out creating crappy products.

To be honest I think a lot of EA's problems are also that it just flat out upset too many of it's customers, especially the "core gamers" they were reliant on, whom they figured were so game obsessed they would tolerate anything they did in pursueing the casual audience and still be there as a safety net. It's just your seeing the effects of this over time as people drop away a few at a time and it adds up, rather than due to some great boycott happening all at once.

I'll also say that EA's problems have also been customer service related, EA simply treats people like crap at the best of times, and then wonders why people hate them. It's a big part of why when someone "slips" and makes an annoucement to the public that should have only been made to people in the industry, it's hammered even worse than usual, because not only does it reinforce the worst sentimnents about EA, but because they have genuinely POed people to want to jump on them for how they were treated.

Add to this EA's somewhat deceptive marketing techniques, and there are other issues as well. To give one example, I recently got talked into trying ToR again recently due to some of the things I said about it. I figured since they went FTP I'd pay to unlock the account features once with a big pile of cash and get the equivilent of a lifetime subscription (which I have for other games) and bounce in and out because I figure with the upcoming Star Wars movies and such the game isn't going to be going anywhere despite it's lukewarm reception. I spent a fairly generous sum of money, only to actually start playing the game and learn that what I set out to do isn't possible because of the things you simply can't pay to unlock, and that even after paying a decent chunk of change you basically run around and have the game periodically say "hahaha, you freeloader scumbag, we're not going to give you full exps, or let you select all the quest rewards because you don't pay a monthly fee" which is ironic because after what I paid there really aren't many benefits left to subscribing other than that.... but really that isn't the point, so much as the constant attempts to remind me that despite the money I sunk into the game they don't give a crap, they still demand moar money, and can't even have the courtasy to shut the hell up in reminding me that I'm not a subscriber. Other games might still try and sell you things, but really ToR is the only one I've personally played that literally intergrates reminders about how much you suck into their central game engine.

Not to mention in doing unlocks I wasted money because for some reason the option to do "global account wide unlock" didn't show up at first (honestly) sound I wound up paying for a single character, and then for an account-wide unlock at a higher price at least once. Error, or intentional, I have no idea. But I'll tell you EA's game is the only one I've ever had an issue like that with.

That said, I will say that they did clean up the game nicely since when I played after launch, it runs much better now and some of the little tweaks and additions do show.

... also as a side note for anyone still developing MMOs, I'm a big fan of lifetime subscriptions when availible. I get that $60 isn't enough to maintain a game infrastructure and additions for years on end. However I vastly prefer to drop one big allotment of money all at once and then not worry about it, to either a subscription model or a forced "piecemeal" microtransaction system. I'm just saying.
 

JEBWrench

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My God. I can't believe I'm actually typing this but.

I kinda agree with something Shamus Young wrote.

*shudder* I feel dirty.
 

thehorror2

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Dexter111 said:
I agree with your argument, it is definitely (also) about that.

But as always I have to take issue for comparing an entertainment industry product with comestible goods like food, because the two don't compare in many ways.
You should compare an entertainment industry product with other entertainment industry products like books, music or movies at least.

And NONE of these industries have as egregious practices as the gaming industry does. None of them could even measure up to the level of DRM and possible inconvenience that even the beloved Steam offers, less so other more hated services like Origin and Always-Online DRM. The music industry tried going against the consumer with all their might, but they lost big and are now dependent on the tech industry for sales and offer their music without DRM.
You don't see books (even Online books) selling separate chapters trying to argue something entirely daft like "this chapter wasn't part of the main story, it's extra, honest!" and movies do have Director's Cuts and Extras, but those usually come out a lot later on DVD/Blu-Ray and the Theatrical release is mostly the same everywhere you can go and watch a movie.
The problem with comparing the game industry to literally ANY other entertainment industry is that games are (or have the potential to be) completely nonlinear. Of course we don't see people releasing DLC for books, books are a linear medium! Shoving a random chapter into A Game of Thrones where Ned Stark goes off to fight the Targaryens can't work because each chapter of a book builds on the previous in a way that games often do, but don't have to. Games can be expanded upon, even when the game has a definite ending (See also: the Mass Effect 3 DLC. That game sure as hell ends, but there's still room to explore the universe the dev team crafted before it does.)
 

irishda

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Treblaine said:
Amaror said:
I actually really like the new season pass model.
But then it's painfully obvious that the whole game is going to cost you $120 ($60 + $60) and the last half is for the smallest little things.

Games generally cost less than movies to make, so WHY DO PUBLISHERS WANT TO CHARGE x15 AS MUCH!!?!?

It's like a person who sells water from a well trying to convince ten-in-a-thousand to pay $100 for a measly glass of water while another 1000 go thirsty, rather than just charging $1 each to the 1100.

It's madness when Publishers have an infinite supply of product, they can make as many copies of their game as they like.

$60 base price may not have increased much over the years. But when you got a $60 game it was expected to be a major purchase, now single-player games are usually so short with little to no replay value. Very few have any multiplayer that will hold the critical number of people to have a sustainable community. Once the number of players dips below a certain level, then those who are still playing find it harder and harder to get a match... so less play it... making it harder to get a match.

The price is wrong. Steam sale prices, those are right. Gog's multibuy deals, those are right.
Guess which ones have a larger fan base, take longer to produce, which ones last longer, and which ones require more work from the producer's end even after a release; movies or games?

As for the $60, I never found games to be exceptionally major in terms of longevity, unless you cut yourself off from new ones, beyond a month or so; maybe more if it has good multi-player. I never did mind the price though, if only because I rarely bought NEW games. I mostly went through the older, cheaper sections as a kid. Even today, $60 seems fair for an unparalleled interactive experience that no other medium of entertainment can reproduce.
 

hickwarrior

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Atmos Duality said:
and a snip it is!
I see. That does make a lot of sense of why we see these practices. I would never play always-online games, unless they are free to play.

The best example of that is dota 2. And yes, I do purchase things for it, but that's because I'm an idiot when it comes to playing dress up.

However, it's also why I don't only use steam, but gamersgate and good old games as well. Just to make sure I don't have every PC game under the sun on steam.

Like TB said, it's a good thing that steam has competition somewhere.
 

Amaror

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Treblaine said:
Amaror said:
I actually really like the new season pass model.
But then it's painfully obvious that the whole game is going to cost you $120 ($60 + $60) and the last half is for the smallest little things.

Games generally cost less than movies to make, so WHY DO PUBLISHERS WANT TO CHARGE x15 AS MUCH!!?!?

It's like a person who sells water from a well trying to convince ten-in-a-thousand to pay $100 for a measly glass of water while another 1000 go thirsty, rather than just charging $1 each to the 1100.

It's madness when Publishers have an infinite supply of product, they can make as many copies of their game as they like.

$60 base price may not have increased much over the years. But when you got a $60 game it was expected to be a major purchase, now single-player games are usually so short with little to no replay value. Very few have any multiplayer that will hold the critical number of people to have a sustainable community. Once the number of players dips below a certain level, then those who are still playing find it harder and harder to get a match... so less play it... making it harder to get a match.

The price is wrong. Steam sale prices, those are right. Gog's multibuy deals, those are right.
ok, i meant more the kind of season pass that costs 10 to 15 dollars.
Then again i never buy AAA on launch date anymore, so for me it's usually 20 + 10 dollars.
 

rayen020

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albino boo said:
rembrandtqeinstein said:
A huge difference is that Valve is a private company and EA is public.

Public companies only care about major shareholders, employees and customers are far down the list of concern. In an ideal world decisions that harm customers and employees would punish the shareholders by decreasing the stock price. In reality stock price is mostly coupled to quarterly earning reports so anything that increases the number on the reports is fair game regardless of the long term consequences.

With a private company usually the founder is in charge and it is "his baby". Until the dollar signs take over his brain he actually has some integrity about his decisions and cares about his reputation.

About the only "good" public company I can think of is Costco but that will probably change now that the founder retired from CEO. Hopefully he will keep tabs on his successor and has influence over policy decisions.
Really, lets examine this closely. TF2 has microtransactions and did so before it went F2P. Even after TF2 went F2P valve does not provide servers, what do you think their margins are on those microtransactions? Valve is just as ruthless but less transparent.
Really, lets examine this more closely. name another Valve game that has microtransactions. Microtransactions in TF2 are completely optional, I can buy a weapon/hat/accessory, or i can craft it. For Valve it's a spice, for EA they just announced it's their new favorite plate. Also since when does valve not provide servers? what are all those Valve servers i play on?
 

Albino Boo

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rayen020 said:
albino boo said:
rembrandtqeinstein said:
A huge difference is that Valve is a private company and EA is public.

Public companies only care about major shareholders, employees and customers are far down the list of concern. In an ideal world decisions that harm customers and employees would punish the shareholders by decreasing the stock price. In reality stock price is mostly coupled to quarterly earning reports so anything that increases the number on the reports is fair game regardless of the long term consequences.

With a private company usually the founder is in charge and it is "his baby". Until the dollar signs take over his brain he actually has some integrity about his decisions and cares about his reputation.

About the only "good" public company I can think of is Costco but that will probably change now that the founder retired from CEO. Hopefully he will keep tabs on his successor and has influence over policy decisions.
Really, lets examine this closely. TF2 has microtransactions and did so before it went F2P. Even after TF2 went F2P valve does not provide servers, what do you think their margins are on those microtransactions? Valve is just as ruthless but less transparent.
Really, lets examine this more closely. name another Valve game that has microtransactions. Microtransactions in TF2 are completely optional, I can buy a weapon/hat/accessory, or i can craft it. For Valve it's a spice, for EA they just announced it's their new favorite plate. Also since when does valve not provide servers? what are all those Valve servers i play on?
Small but rather important point, is optional in Deadspace too. You can spend the time collecting resources and crafting the items just like TF2. Also the only game that Valve has porduced since TF2 microtransactions also has microtransactions.
 

Kargathia

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albino boo said:
rembrandtqeinstein said:
A huge difference is that Valve is a private company and EA is public.

Public companies only care about major shareholders, employees and customers are far down the list of concern. In an ideal world decisions that harm customers and employees would punish the shareholders by decreasing the stock price. In reality stock price is mostly coupled to quarterly earning reports so anything that increases the number on the reports is fair game regardless of the long term consequences.

With a private company usually the founder is in charge and it is "his baby". Until the dollar signs take over his brain he actually has some integrity about his decisions and cares about his reputation.

About the only "good" public company I can think of is Costco but that will probably change now that the founder retired from CEO. Hopefully he will keep tabs on his successor and has influence over policy decisions.
Really, lets examine this closely. TF2 has microtransactions and did so before it went F2P. Even after TF2 went F2P valve does not provide servers, what do you think their margins are on those microtransactions? Valve is just as ruthless but less transparent.
Caring about your reputation does not impede making mad, mad money. In this case it means nothing more than that Valve is better at being greedy than EA - TF2 hats are a perfect example of this. They've managed to create microtransactions for items that people love to buy, nobody feels left out on when not paying, and have zero influence on game balance. Win-win-win.

He also is certainly right in that Valve being a private company is probably the single largest difference between them and EA - it enables them to plan long-term, and prioritise customer experience above quarterly earnings.
EA would never have been able to decide that the first iteration of Half-Life wasn't up to scratch, and completely re-do the entire game pre-launch. It would have tanked their stock prices.

Valve caring about their reputation and integrity has nothing to do with the goodness of their heart - they merely know that these things are crucial for getting your customers to throw buckets of money at you, and thank you for it afterwards.
 

Doug

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rembrandtqeinstein said:
A huge difference is that Valve is a private company and EA is public.

Public companies only care about major shareholders, employees and customers are far down the list of concern. In an ideal world decisions that harm customers and employees would punish the shareholders by decreasing the stock price. In reality stock price is mostly coupled to quarterly earning reports so anything that increases the number on the reports is fair game regardless of the long term consequences.

With a private company usually the founder is in charge and it is "his baby". Until the dollar signs take over his brain he actually has some integrity about his decisions and cares about his reputation.

About the only "good" public company I can think of is Costco but that will probably change now that the founder retired from CEO. Hopefully he will keep tabs on his successor and has influence over policy decisions.
But if the business model is poor and sales are hurt (i.e. because the customers have been driven off by awful business practices) then the shareholders won't be happy either - Valve encourages customers, EA is pushing them away.

Again, its not about greed, its about smart business and stupid, self-destructive business.
 

Zeckt

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You know what? it was like you were speaking directly to me when you said valve makes you feel like a winner as opposed to being hassled. I never thought about it that way and appreciate the insight. I buy very compulsively from both steam and GoG with no regrets and actually feel like I come out on top. It definitely works on me as evidence by my massive steam library I cannot possibly play in one lifetime!
 

Treblaine

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irishda said:
Treblaine said:
Games generally cost less than movies to make, so WHY DO PUBLISHERS WANT TO CHARGE x15 AS MUCH!!?!?
Guess which ones have a larger fan base, take longer to produce, which ones last longer, and which ones require more work from the producer's end even after a release; movies or games?

IS that genuinely facetious or are you pointing out how similar they are.

Movies cost a lot considering the long pre-production time and extensive editing and test-marketing period. Just because the filming is only a few months doesn't mean it's quicker than for games.

The longer time games take to complete cannot account for the 8 to 15 fold price difference and much MUCH smaller game sales.

As for the $60, I never found games to be exceptionally major in terms of longevity, unless you cut yourself off from new ones, beyond a month or so; maybe more if it has good multi-player. I never did mind the price though, if only because I rarely bought NEW games. I mostly went through the older, cheaper sections as a kid. Even today, $60 seems fair for an unparalleled interactive experience that no other medium of entertainment can reproduce.
"I never did mind the price though, if only because I rarely bought NEW games."

This is the problem, you are depending on a system of so many people selling their games they bought new, this is jsut turning the idea of permanent ownership of the physical copy on its head by how it has to be resold. But that's a zero sum development, for you to get a new game you depend on someone buying your game used so they won't buy it new.

Re-sale is supposed to be a safety valve, not a fundamental component. It seems to really affecting the number of sales consoles could make.

The tie ratio for Xbox 360 is only ten, that means for every xbox 360 sold, only 10 new games have been sold. Over almost 8 years, that should be way higher, the average Xbox 360 gamer has only

We've seen in almost every other area that when games are sold for half their price from $60 to $40, they would sell in more than twice the numbers. That's the company earning more money and more people are happy getting the game. Win-win situation but the companies are too stupid, it's a kind of "greed" as they want to get as much out of each game as possibly they end up earning less.

"fair for an unparalleled interactive experience"

Games have gone from 20 hour epics to 5 hour corridor-runs. Graphics have gotten better but the gameplay has gone backwards.

And $60 is the price you get with CONSOLES.

That's not the deal you get with PC gaming, I haven't given up on all gaming for the console practices. I have given up on console gaming for the practices on consoles. I get better quality games on PC for a lower price.
 

Treblaine

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Amaror said:
ok, i meant more the kind of season pass that costs 10 to 15 dollars.
Then again i never buy AAA on launch date anymore, so for me it's usually 20 + 10 dollars.
But most season passes are $50 to $60, as for Battlefield 3, COD, etc.

10 to 15 dollars is more like the price of a single piece of DLC. Like for a map pack that used to be released for free and you want to know why the first map packs were released for free?

With free map-pack it meant all those who bought the game could play in the same maps and they weren't segregated by which particular map pack the happened to have bough. Also they recognised that the map packs were pretty damn simple to make, they couldn't deny how their fans were making maps of equal quality on their own in their spare time... often with brilliant innovation ins layout and style.

But the likes of COD and BF3 have shat on the idea of map=packs so badly that developers who coined the term avoid it, they are bundled in with updates and avoid the negative term.
 

Amaror

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Treblaine said:
Amaror said:
ok, i meant more the kind of season pass that costs 10 to 15 dollars.
Then again i never buy AAA on launch date anymore, so for me it's usually 20 + 10 dollars.
But most season passes are $50 to $60, as for Battlefield 3, COD, etc.

10 to 15 dollars is more like the price of a single piece of DLC. Like for a map pack that used to be released for free and you want to know why the first map packs were released for free?

With free map-pack it meant all those who bought the game could play in the same maps and they weren't segregated by which particular map pack the happened to have bough. Also they recognised that the map packs were pretty damn simple to make, they couldn't deny how their fans were making maps of equal quality on their own in their spare time... often with brilliant innovation ins layout and style.

But the likes of COD and BF3 have shat on the idea of map=packs so badly that developers who coined the term avoid it, they are bundled in with updates and avoid the negative term.
Maybe but i don't play COD or Battlefield 3, so i don't really care. I did say that i like the mere Concept of Season Passes more than the feeling of never having a complete game, i didn't said that Publisher's price it right. With Season Passes, Dlcs and Microtransactions it'S painfully obvious that most Publisher's have no clue whatsoever what a virtual item is worth to people (Hint: It's not so much).
 

geizr

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Yes, I definitely agree with this. It's not the product or the price that makes the difference; it's the quality of the experience around the product that makes the difference.

Also, I'm usually in agreement with the idea that companies exist to make money. However, this article got me to rethink the statement to something that I think is more sensible: companies need to earn money to continue existing. This is very different from the preexisting notion that companies exist to make money. This statement does not set making money as the primary goal, as the preexisting notion does; instead, it only sets making money as a requirement that the company has to meet to continue operation, only. It has to somehow earn money, sufficient money, to cover all its expenses and supply its growth and expansion within the market. In contrast, the preexisting notion that companies existing to make money imposes intrinsic greed into a company's behavior, whereas this new notion does not. Instead, the new statement allows for more reasonable behavior from companies, rather than forcing near sociopathic behavior as we have come to expect from companies. It allows the company to seek alternative business models and practices that are kinder and gentler while satisfying its requirement to continue existence. Further, it allows the company to have an actual goal that is explicitly beneficial to society and not so singularly self-centered and pathological. Of course, there is nothing preventing corruption of the idea and devolving back into greedy practices; after all, such practices also may satisfy the constraint, at least until customers finally get fed up with the mistreatment. However, the key is that the notion that companies need to earn money to continue existing does not automatically imply, by necessity, greedy behavior on the part of these companies.
 

Flight

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This is a very well-written article, and it managed to hit the nail right on the head. I couldn't entirely put my finger on why so many microtransactions bothered me before (besides thinking of them as "greedy"), but this definitely helped.
 

Infernal Lawyer

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Sgt. Sykes said:
All true, but you just wait when you wake up from the Valve dream.

Like I did.

I didn't buy anything from Steam in 2 years or so with the exception of Trine 2 which I couldn't resist.

Now, any time I want to play something which I have on steam I have to start that ANNOYING, BLOATED piece of adware. You know what it is? HASSLE. And if it's a game I forgot to disable updates for, and I have to be online for some reason... Oh the joy of waiting half an hour or half a day until the 'servers are buys' error disappears.

Yeah, Apple, Valve and co. train their users really well, but that makes them even worse. Companies aren't friends of consumers. By principle. The company wants to earn as much as possible, while the consumer wants to spend as little as possible. By believing the company is your friend, you risk handing over your money and getting nothing in return.
May I remind you of a few things?

1. If you were talking about the 'news' function that pops up every time steam gets turned on, fret not! It can be turned off in the settings menu. Quick and painless.

2. There is a thing called 'offline mode'. If you don't mind ticking the 'save my password' and 'log in automatically' functions in the settings, you can quickly set up steam to work offline, so screw DRM and screw those servers. It doesn't take long at all.

Just wanted to say there's no point whining over problems that can very easily be fixed.