@Notch and the 'F-bomb'

[Duskflamer]

I notice a lot of people saying things to the effect of "Yogscast curse all the time, why care now?"

There's a difference between cursing in a youtube video that a parent could watch ahead of time and decide that their kid should or should not watch it, and cursing to insult people at a live performance in a setting where people who may never have heard of you before will be in the audience.

That said I'm curious, did Mojong ever specifically ask the Yogscast guys to keep it child-friendly? If they did, then Yogscast has no defense and I am 100% behind Notch's decision. If they weren't asked, then it becomes a bit more grey, but they still should have been able to notice that there were plenty of kids attending.

 

[Treblaine]

notch and simon and lewis are the quintessential man-child,

Notch, who without any major publisher backing made the hugely successful game Minecraft, making all the code from scratch... is somehow a man child. He is 32 year old, what will YOU have achieved by that age?

PS: before you go off believing the OP, check the source and realise that the OP doesn't know the difference between "general use of cuss words" and "being insulting".

Notch's issue is with them directly insulting people, not general cuss words.

https://twitter.com/#!/NOTCH

"Yogscast repeatedly insulted people, talked behind their backs, refused to cooperate, and acted like total spoiled divas nonstop."

"They called us "a bunch of nerds who don't know how to run a company", demanded that we pay them to come here (nobody else got paid)."

"I'm very sorry about the behavior of the people (clarified as yogscast) we won't work with any more. Celebrity or not, you don't f-bomb kids."

Difference between swearing within earshot of children and swearing AT them! And of course, were they called out on this and asked to apologise, did they still refuse? OP is telling a very warped version of events.

Treblaine, before you go off on another arrogant, patronising rant, check your facts. At the time of posting, all I'd seen was a tweet by Notch saying that someone had dropped the 'F-bomb'. I decided to use this as a lead to MY questions over the use of language in the gaming community. I am very aware of the difference between "directly insulting people, not general cuss words". I notice that your condescending tone isn't appreciated elsewhere, maybe you should address that? *puts emphasis on own condescending tone*

I don't know, are you going to edit your original post to clarify the situation with Notch?

A bit about Ricky Gervais isn't particularly relevant.

Yes, I suppose I have been rather condescending and patronising, People tend to be that way with people who are so misleading and stirring so many inaccurate rumours and half-truths. What else do you want? A pat on the back for an excellent piece of journalism? Do you expect me to yell and rant at you? The best you can expect is condescension.

"Notch saying that someone had dropped the 'F-bomb'"

You can't even get that right, the tweet actually said "you don't f-bomb kids" which is very distinct from merely casually using the f-word. Directing the F-word at someone is inflammatory. Forum rules often state you can swear, but not swear AT other users. You can see that in the patterns of warnings and suspension.

 

[TorqueConverter]

It's fairly clear there have been some tension between the Yogscast and Notch at minecon. I wasn't there, but you can see the tension in the interview videos with remarks centered around money and internet fame. I'm going to go out on a limb and and say the f-bomb is mostly likely the straw that broke the camel's back. I really don't care about their little hissy-fit, however I did expect, at least Notch, as the Yogscast has not yet spoken on the topic, to behave more professional. Tweeting to followers on twitter about such things is hardly professional.

 

[BGH122]

I'm sure the people in the community who are female, disabled or gay don't enjoy it.

And there's your problem. Don't presume to know what offends other people. (for a more erudite comment, look up Stephen Fry bits on youtube.)

Also: In British English swearwords are much more common, deal with it.

This.

It disgusts me when people say "well what of ['minority' here]'s feelings?"

A: They're feelings - no-one died because you said something that made them upset. Seriously, grow a thicker skin and stop being such a whiny little so and so. People say mean things. People say ignorant things. Being a historical minority doesn't give you the right to never be upset by anyone - that's for children; do you seriously want society to treat you like a child, and have people censor their normal speech around you?

B: The person making these ridiculous comments almost always falls into the following three categories:
1) Not from that social group and has barely even interacted with something even vaguely representing a cross-section of that social group (usually making their faux-intellectual statements about 'equality' to seem important, or agreeably 'liberal')
2) Someone with a giant chip on their shoulder, who really needs to accept that his/her issues stem from a deeper place than what they're actually arguing about
3) Someone who stands to make money by whining

C: Steve Hughes on the concept:


So, OP, I think the take-home lesson is this: different things offend different people. I'm offended by obnoxiously middle class statements about the various things that offend a minority. I'm offended by arguments which are obviously made with all the deficits of understanding of non-upper-middle class society that private education brings. Does that mean that populist New-Left ideology should be banned, because it might upset me? Obviously not.

Y'see, I'm actually a liberal (of the genuine form of liberalism, which New-Left has done its best to destroy with its endless false flagging), and I believe in the cornerstone of liberalism: the Harm Principle (the logical justifications of which, detailed in On Liberty, New-Left managed to entirely misunderstand in order to create the 'offense principle' to which you appear to ascribe). Why? Because humans are fallible, so permitting people to censor free opinion could be censoring the next Galileo.

To rebut the painfully obvious (and moronic) inevitable reply - "I durnt thenk racests r similur t glileo, kthx" - you aren't infallible, neither am I. We aren't able to tell what arguments or opinions, regardless of whether they offend, will eventually lead to, or themselves contain, truth or the echo of truth. Censoring things because we don't like them has the potential to lead to shutting down arguments that could have benefited humanity as a whole, with the upside that someone might not get upset; not censoring arguments that might offend has as its sole downside that someone might get a bit weepy (in which case, they need to fucking toughen up - sticks and fucking stones...), with the upside that it could lead to free and open intellectualism, and untold advances for humanity.

Real liberalism is awesome. This New-Left bullshit version of it is just socialism usurping the name of less despised political philosophy.

 

[Duskflamer]

It's fairly clear there have been some tension between the Yogscast and Notch at minecon. I wasn't there, but you can see the tension in the interview videos with remarks centered around money and internet fame. I'm going to go out on a limb and and say the f-bomb is mostly likely the straw that broke the camel's back. I really don't care about their little hissy-fit, however I did expect, at least Notch, as the Yogscast has not yet spoken on the topic, to behave more professional. Tweeting to followers on twitter about such things is hardly professional.

For what it's worth, Notch was originally not commenting on it at all, but his tweets about Minecon were getting flooded with angry and rude responses from Yogscast fans so he decided to tweet about it for the benefit of those who didn't know what they were getting angry at him about.

 

[slipknot4]

It's Yogscast. From Yogs, Ye Olde Goone Squade. He has former Yogs-members at his convent.
Let me show you: This was taken from my application earlier this year.

Just a few things to point out before hand:-

* Goons are very hateful people, all of whom will gladly insult you, your boyfriend, your posting abilities, and yes even your dead grandmother at every possible opportunity. You're going to need a very thick skin if you're to stand any chance of lasting with us.

* On farm bosses, we'll try to rotate raiders around, so don?t start bitching if you're asked to sit out for some bosses.

* Finally, if you're regularly playing shit, either by doing piss poor DPS or dying to every fiery mechanic imaginable, then we won't hesitate to kick you. We strongly suggest that you keep thoroughly up-to-date with all of the best and current hunter theorycrafting websites and utility spreadsheets availble, so as to stay at the top of your game along with our resident hunters.

So, if you're fine with the above, feel free to whisper someone important (not me) for an invite and we'll kill some shit together.

If Notch didn't know that before he had them there then. He might as well not say a word about it, and this think about the children argument is stupid. It's not like a f-bomb is going to hurt them what-so-ever.

 

[Ickorus]

Reading Notch's post it seems more likely to me that the Yogscast made a couple of sarcastic jokes (as they often do) and someone told Notch about them without the context of a joke.

We'll find out soon enough though when the Yogscast actually put out a response.

 

[ExodusFlame]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPd9oci4ers

this is how they acted during the show they even minded they're own language if there is any accusations about that then no they didn't swear during they're show if its backstage and people meeting them however then unfortunately that is not on camera.

 

[silversnake4133]

Let's face it, people are going to be dicks to each other no matter what you do. The internet only helps people to be dicks to each other because you can't express emotions through plain text on white backgrounds, nor can you essentially put a name to some people who do these things. Plus political correctness kind of comes into play here as well, and with how many words people find "offensive" anymore, you can't even say adjectives about a person for fear that they might be "offended" by it.

If anything we should just stop being so damn offended by everything and just laugh. Notch is more or less up to his infamous trolling ways so there's probably not much to worry about. However, misinterpretations can always make something get out of hand, intentional or not.

 

[Mr.SunShine]

What do i think about it? Keeping children from experiencing things retards their development.

Sheltering Kids doesn't help them. Innocence will be lost no matter what you do, so you might as well get them used to it.

Yogscast (as far as I know) wasn't asked to keep the language "clean", nor were they (as far as I know) any more or less "inappropiate" than they usually are.

I can't say too much on the matter because I don't watch them, and I've also known that Notch is still basically a kid with a metric shit-ton of money.

Overreaction? I think so, yes. Justified? Maybe not, we'll have to wait for the Yogs to respond.

 

[TitanAtlas]

But the reason isn't just because they saied the F Bomb... it's mainly because they offended people and staff, and acted like little divas saying things like minecraft would never be this big if it weren't for them and more...

And this has been also rumbled through Tumblr with staff that saied the same thing has Notch, and people who felt really offended by some things the Yogcast did.

Try to get all the facts right first.

 

[violinist1129]

Show me a kid who doesn't know the words Fuck, *****, slut, ****, whore or asshole.

Go ahead, I'll wait.

Probably just him trying to save face with his company in case some "Oh god my sensibilities I must sue!" idiots come along or making sure they'll be able to comeback for MineCon next year.

My younger brother (8) only knows ***** and Asshole out of that list, and even then he doesn't know what ***** means. Heck, I went to high school with people who didn't know ****

 

[ServebotFrank]

I love how the OP didn't even posts Notch's twitter feeds. Here's what Notch says happened regarding the f-bomb. Now there were various other reasons Notch was mad at Yogscast but I'll focus on the f-bomb.

"A kid had given them something that I had signed and they said they wanted to scratch it out and write 'fuck you' instead."

That's what he had a problem with.

 

[Some_weirdGuy]

What's unreasonable is the whole 'dirty laundry on Twitter' thing.

Totalbiscuit made some very good points on his Reddit post:
Notch accused the Yogscast of demanding payment and telling Notch that Mojang was 'a bunch of nerds who don't know how to run a company'. Well, if he thought that two commentators whose full time job is their Youtube videos to stump up the thousands of pounds for accommodation, transatlantic flights and the like, whilst being away from their main source of revenue out of the goodness of their hearts, then yes, he has no idea how to run a professional convention.

I'm sorry, but if you expect people to have any respect for you, then you don't start acting like some bitchy pre-teen on Twitter when you have a disagreement with someone.

If what he said the Yogscast did is true, then yes, he had grounds for not working with them again (although the claims sound dubious at best), but either way, he is not improving the situation by instigating a witch-hunt on Twitter. That is what I find unreasonable.

(paragraphed for readability^)

Did you even read what I said or did you just leap straight at 'whats so unreasonable about that' and then use that as a bouncing board for a separate post on your own opinions on the event? >.>

He wasn't saying anything on it, he was happy to keep it on the down low, but after being flooded with bile and hatemail from yogscast fans (who didn't even know what the hell had happened, since he'd respectfully kept quite about it) he said 'screw that for a joke' and told them all exactly why he made his decision not to work with yogsacast again at another minecon.
That's not instigating a witch hunt, if anything that's retaliating against the witch hunt that ignorant yogscast fans had instigated against him. Hatemail is annoying, but ignorant hatemail is worse.


Calling them 'divas' and saying they were acting like total dicks might not be the corporate professional response you'd expect from a developers lawyers firm in a public statement on the matter, but everyone seems to be forgetting:

This is his personal twitter account.

Do you really expect cold robotic responses along side such things as:

Oh, that's YOU!!! Hi!

some homo. A bit.

they were! raur

Good morning! 6:30 am, and I feel somewhat refreshed. Should breakfast soon. That's a verb.

No, cause its twitter. You know, that site for posting up your opinions and how you're going and what you're eating for breakfast and all that stuff people like me don't give a damn about.

As it is people are blowing both sides out of proportion.
Big woop, Yogscast were rude to a bunch of people and said they would cross out a kids signed T-Shirt and write Fuck You instead.
Big woop, Notch decides thats unacceptable and decides he won't be inviting them to another convention and eventually tells people about it over twitter.

Who really cares? Why does anyone really care? Why are so many people getting riled up over it? >.>
What does it matter in the slightest to anyone except for the yogscasters and notch?

 

[Yetipumper]

Hey, OP. "Disablism" is not a word. And if it was, it'd mean the opposite of that.

Disablism

Disablism is the "discriminatory, oppressive or abusive behaviour arising from the belief that disabled people are inferior to others". This definition has been used by Scope since 2004.

If they say it's a word, I'm happy to use it as a word.

Yeah, see, the problem is that "sexism" involves believing that your own gender is superior, and "racism" involves believing that your own race is superior. That's why "constructivist" is a person that believes that constructivism is right, not a person that discriminates against constructivists.

So, unless "disablists" think that their own disability is so much cooler than anybody else's, Scope should start hiring linguISTS and etymologISTS to invent new words for them instead of giving the task to some moron from the marketing department that will only screw up and make them come across as pretentious douches that don't know their shit.

So, while I fully support treating disabled people equally (better, in fact, as they face challenges that society should help them overcome), I also believe that we have a beautiful word to describe assholes that don't agree: bigot. And we have another great word for the act of irrationally avoiding hiring a disabled person for a job they can perform: discrimination.

Yeah, maybe I should have just used bigot. I disagree that they'll be seen as "pretentious douches" though. Surely that'll be saved for the linguists

 

[Yetipumper]

I'm sure the people in the community who are female, disabled or gay don't enjoy it.

And there's your problem. Don't presume to know what offends other people. (for a more erudite comment, look up Stephen Fry bits on youtube.)

Also: In British English swearwords are much more common, deal with it.

This.

It disgusts me when people say "well what of ['minority' here]'s feelings?"

A: They're feelings - no-one died because you said something that made them upset. Seriously, grow a thicker skin and stop being such a whiny little so and so. People say mean things. People say ignorant things. Being a historical minority doesn't give you the right to never be upset by anyone - that's for children; do you seriously want society to treat you like a child, and have people censor their normal speech around you?

B: The person making these ridiculous comments almost always falls into the following three categories:
1) Not from that social group and has barely even interacted with something even vaguely representing a cross-section of that social group (usually making their faux-intellectual statements about 'equality' to seem important, or agreeably 'liberal')
2) Someone with a giant chip on their shoulder, who really needs to accept that his/her issues stem from a deeper place than what they're actually arguing about
3) Someone who stands to make money by whining

C: Steve Hughes on the concept:


So, OP, I think the take-home lesson is this: different things offend different people. I'm offended by obnoxiously middle class statements about the various things that offend a minority. I'm offended by arguments which are obviously made with all the deficits of understanding of non-upper-middle class society that private education brings. Does that mean that populist New-Left ideology should be banned, because it might upset me? Obviously not.

Y'see, I'm actually a liberal (of the genuine form of liberalism, which New-Left has done its best to destroy with its endless false flagging), and I believe in the cornerstone of liberalism: the Harm Principle (the logical justifications of which, detailed in On Liberty, New-Left managed to entirely misunderstand in order to create the 'offense principle' to which you appear to ascribe). Why? Because humans are fallible, so permitting people to censor free opinion could be censoring the next Galileo.

To rebut the painfully obvious (and moronic) inevitable reply - "I durnt thenk racests r similur t glileo, kthx" - you aren't infallible, neither am I. We aren't able to tell what arguments or opinions, regardless of whether they offend, will eventually lead to, or themselves contain, truth or the echo of truth. Censoring things because we don't like them has the potential to lead to shutting down arguments that could have benefited humanity as a whole, with the upside that someone might not get upset; not censoring arguments that might offend has as its sole downside that someone might get a bit weepy (in which case, they need to fucking toughen up - sticks and fucking stones...), with the upside that it could lead to free and open intellectualism, and untold advances for humanity.

Real liberalism is awesome. This New-Left bullshit version of it is just socialism usurping the name of less despised political philosophy.

There's a certain irony about this self-righteousness but fair enough. I would argue though that it is those who come up with arguments against discriminatory language are more likely to know someone who is discriminated against (as in my case). Do you think that those who use discriminatory language and defend their use of it would be happy do so in front of someone that this language references? Disability, sex, race, are not things that are chosen. To belittle someone for any of these is ridiculous. People who are offended by swear words have little argument-THEY are just words, not CONDITIONS. I believe in self-censorship. Censorship of others is a not good. I do think that people should be aware that things they say do have a negative effect on people which is unnecessary. You see this as a 'middleclass' arguement, well, I am a 25yr old joiner/carpenter paying my way through University. I would say that your argument would be that of the middle classes. Your support of liberalism confirms this.

 

[mb16]

how about this: Notch doesnt like Yogscast, but yet he had to invite them as they are considered a "central part of the community" and people would complain if they weren't there. So when they started acting up he snapped.

notch not liking the yogscast would also explain why he gives the job/opportunity of making trailers to Hatventures
(these people)

 

[ExodusFlame]

Im pretty sure this explains a fair amount on the matter:
http://www.reddit.com/r/Minecraft/comments/mnau9/yogscast_response_to_notchs_twitterings/

Or maybe he gives the trailers to hatventures because they are not full time game commentators with a quite a large amount of things to do on a daily basis at least 2 videos from the yogscast go up a day also i assume hatventures are pro at trailer making.