Obsidian accused of transmisogyny in Pillars of Eternity

[gmaverick019_v1legacy]

I would argue that by saying "the last woman turned out a man" they are putting some of it on her well. They're saying that she's not a woman, which disrespects her. Like I mentioned in response to the quote above yours, there's a simple fix that keeps the primary intention of the joke while cutting out the transphobic implication.

"he suddenly thought a man"? is this guy just higher than shit, why would he randomly choose to think someone was a man, and run off a cliff based off of some random thought that popped into his head?

and how is it homophobic? if a gay guy happened to be grinding on a very masculine chick, and she turned around and he thought "woah, whoops, no thanks." how would that be heterophobic?

 

[J Tyran]

So straight men who are uncomfortable with the idea have no rights? Not that I'm justifying abuse, violence, murder or anything because nothing justifies that so don't try and flip it around that way or strawman and just answer the question directly.

I have great sympthy for transexual people, it cannot be easy based on everything I have read and watched but when people are having a sexual encounter the rights and wishes of each person involved need to be respected. They should never be ridiculed but they need to have the same respect for anyone they sleep with and take their wishes into account, that respect is an important part of consent.

Can that lead to some awkward or difficult discussions? At times certainly, I doubt its always possible to sound the topic out in a roundabout way. In the best possible world it wouldn't be necessary as people wouldn't care we don't live in that world though, gender realignment, hormones and other treatments are all fairly new to society and it may take time for perceptions to change (if ever).

You have every right to be uncomfortable, and honestly it's probably a far more decent thing to not have sex with someone if you're uncomfortable with it as opposed to try and pretend you aren't for their sake. Maybe giving some thought as to why you feel uncomfortable might be a good idea though (using general you here). If you feel uncomfortable because you aren't able to find them attractive, then that's okay. You can't really help that. If you feel uncomfortable because you can't help thinking that they're really the opposite gender, then you probably have something that you should work out. In either case, you probably shouldn't sleep with them until you actually do feel comfortable.

I'd agree with you that it's certainly better to tell someone beforehand, and while I'm not a transsexual, I suspect it's what I'd do if I were in that position. I don't agree that it's something that you owe someone else though. Especially since if you go about telling someone on the outset they might just right you off when they might find they don't care once they get to know you better.

I also wonder why the focus is on Men and Male to Female transgendered people here as well, I bet there have been instances of verbal abuse, discrimination and/or of physical violence to some degree when other transgendered people have had sex with a gender/sexuality that are uncomfortable with the idea without prior knowledge.

I don't doubt it. The reason why I have been using man with a male to female transsexual is just because that's the scenario that was presented, and the scenario that gets chocked up for laughs in all of the comedies. It's also just simpler in terms of pronouns.

I have no problems and it doesn't make me uncomfortable at all[footnote]If you really must flipping know and it states my case better I'm somewhat bisexual (but generally prefer the female form) so its really not an issue for me[/footnote] but I can see that some people are extremely uncomfortable with it, lack of knowledge and education are certainly part of it. There are undoubtedly issues of understanding, people have problems understanding the common things about how our bodies, thought processes and desires and sexuality with something so far outside most people understanding it doesn't lend itself well to being understood.

Especially to the scientifically and medically ignorant or anyone with a view point limited and blinded to most things, which for some people isn't a choice either. They are simply wired up that way, they struggle to empathise and understand outside of their own experiences.

I should add that deceit is incredibly important when it comes to consent, no a transgendered person should't have to spew out their life history but they have an obligation to respect the wishes of potential partners which may mean no casual encounters.

then you probably have something that you should work out.

You probably have something you need to work out before making unsubstantiated and fallacious accusations.

 

[GundamSentinel]

Wait, wait, wait, wait.

So if I go to bed with someone who I think is a woman, but turns out to be a man, and I'm pissed about that, I'm transphobic?

The levels of stupidity one can encounter on social media are absolutely staggering.

So... where did anyone say that? I've seen people say you can't assault a trans person simply because they didn't tell you beforehand, which I'd hope most people would agree with but then again disparaging trans people is apparently cool now so who knows. And I've seen people say that calling a transwoman a man is offensive, which seems pretty reasonable.

The poem basically states: guy goes to bed with what he thinks is a woman, woman turns out to be a man (how and why unknown), guy runs off and gets himself killed.

Where did it say a trans person was assaulted? Oh yeah, nowhere. Also, where did it say a trans person was involved? Also nowhere, because dressing like the opposite gender does not automatically make you trans.

This is just people who failed at reading comprehension making assumptions.

 

[The Almighty Aardvark]

I don't mean to be that guy, but exactly how do you go about doing that?

I mean, you're not sleeping with them because they had an overly floppy piece of nerves and skin between their legs, so how do you go about it, because essentially it's:

"dude, you were a dude and I don't like dudes in that dudely way. I mean, I like them in a dudely fashion when we're just all dudes, but dude you were a dude and I was looking for a dudette, not a dudedutteish, for this."

No matter how you say it, it is going to hurt because the reason is because they're trans.

Okay, this is something I don't get. I can understand if you simply don't find a penis attractive when you're attracted to women, or you don't find someone attractive while or after they've transitioned using hormone therapy, but why does it matter to so many people what gender someone was born?

If they're mentally a woman, you're attracted to women, and you find them physically attractive, why do you care what gender they were born?

There's conditions where someone is born with an XY gene but has the physical sexual characteristics of a woman, as well as conditions where you're born intersex and assigned a gender by the doctor (which often results in transsexuality). Those people could have been born as biologically a man but lived their entire life looking, acting, and being treated like a woman, why the hell does that matter to people?

As for the rest of your point, I never said that you can let someone down and not have it hurt, it's going to do that regardless. Just as long as you don't twist the knife in the wound I think you're being decent.

Wouldn't they be able to see that shit before they start fucking and whatnot? It would be more akin to having an STD and not informing your partner before you do the deed.

I was working on the assumption that this was someone who was transitioning or hasn't started, and it is visibly noticeable. If you can't tell the difference and find them attractive anyways... see above, why do you care?

Once again though, STD's are something that are actually harmful, and I don't think that's a fair comparison.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

People reaaaaally overreacted if that bit of poetry got on their nerves.

 

[Fdzzaigl]

Progressives have been tweeting to Obsidian all day about this, to the point where John Sawyer had to directly respond to one of them. So I'd say a lot of people are trying to have it removed, if not the vast majority.

Wrong, random irrational people on twitter have been tweeting about this all day.

There's nothing progressive about this.

 

[J Tyran]

Once again though, STD's are something that are actually harmful, and I don't think that's a fair comparison.

Psychological trauma isn't harmful? For some people its obviously traumatic and a violation thats almost akin to being raped (from their perspective).

 

[Littaly]

OT: Mildly offensive joke that a backer wanted included in the game. I would say that Obsidian probably should've said no to it, but its their game, their choice if they want to edit it or not. I'll be getting the game eventually regardless because Obsidian is one of my favourite developers.

Probably the most reasonable thing that has been said here (or at least the tow first pages, couldn't be bothered to read further, sorry ^^).

It's a little bit unclear on who's expense the joke is (as noted, it might as well be interpreted as being at the expense of "Firedorn"), but on the whole I can see why you would maybe find it mildly offensive if you were a trans person. Worthy of an outrage? Maybe not, but there is nothing wrong in pointing things like these out.

I'm not in a position to judge what is and isn't offensive to a social minority. But I really see no harm in pointing it out to Obsidian, and leaving it up to them to decide how to act on it.

 

[Def25]

Troll acount made to attack dev and create controversy using a NON word and people are giving this attention.

Do you hear that? It is the PC police coming to take away your ability to joke. A backer made a joke on a NON EXISTANT fictional chracter? UPROAR RAGE ARGGGGG.

There has to be a bigger meaning to everything, everything must matter, everyone must be welcomed and everything around you is triggering, your existance is triggering those people, you should erase yourself from existance.

Or you can stop giving attention to the outrage culture and focus on gaming instead.

 

[ZiggyE]

Holy fucking shit, how the hell does this keep happening?!?!?! Are artists so limp wristed nowadays that they flake at the smallest indication of controversy? I hope to god Sawyer is just trying to marginally placate the rabid masses with that "we're looking into it" comment rather than seriously consider removing such a innocuous joke. I mean fuck, they didn't even say the person this fictitious person slept with was transgender for Christ's sake! But no, how dare they even leave the possibility of transmisogynyistism! I swear, people need to grow a fucking backbone these days...

Be glad it's a backer contribution, otherwise it'd probably be gone already.

Progressives have been tweeting to Obsidian all day about this, to the point where John Sawyer had to directly respond to one of them. So I'd say a lot of people are trying to have it removed, if not the vast majority.

Wrong, random irrational people on twitter have been tweeting about this all day.

There's nothing progressive about this.

As a former progressive, I really wish I could share your outlook.

 

[Pr0]

So... where did anyone say that? I've seen people say you can't assault a trans person simply because they didn't tell you beforehand, which I'd hope most people would agree with but then again disparaging trans people is apparently cool now so who knows. And I've seen people say that calling a transwoman a man is offensive, which seems pretty reasonable.

The poem basically states: guy goes to bed with what he thinks is a woman, woman turns out to be a man (how and why unknown), guy runs off and gets himself killed.

Where did it say a trans person was assaulted? Oh yeah, nowhere. Also, where did it say a trans person was involved? Also nowhere, because dressing like the opposite gender does not automatically make you trans.

This is just people who failed at reading comprehension making assumptions.

And this is why you should read the entire thread before commenting upon what people have said in the thread. You see the latter part of my post, where it says calling a transwoman a man is offensive?

Only if you assume, by reading the poem, that the individual that Firedorn bedded was a transsexual at all.

Could be Firedorn was just really drunk and actually slept with a man because he was so drunk Its not like that never happens. That, as well, is an assumption because nothing about the poem indicates that Firedorn was a drunkard, but again, nothing indicates that the man he slept with was actually transgendered other than the inferred line which says "last woman he bedded turned out to be a man". Which again, maybe Firedorn was just blind drunk and thought a man was a woman.

So again the entire "offense" of the poem itself is inferred, its one histronic "icequeen" deciding to assume that the other individual in the poem was transgendered and then taking offense for it on behalf of every transgendered individual on the planet and demand Obsidian apologize for what is being assumed.

So...it is, in every sense of the word, manipulative stupidity in high form.

 

[The Almighty Aardvark]

I have no problems and it doesn't make me uncomfortable at all[footnote]If you really must flipping know and it states my case better I'm somewhat bisexual (but generally prefer the female form) so its really not an issue for me[/footnote] but I can see that some people are extremely uncomfortable with it, lack of knowledge and education are certainly part of it. There are undoubtedly issues of understanding, people have problems understanding the common things about how our bodies, thought processes and desires and sexuality with something so far outside most people understanding it doesn't lend itself well to being understood.

Especially to the scientifically and medically ignorant or anyone with a view point limited and blinded to most things, which for some people isn't a choice either. They are simply wired up that way, they struggle to empathise and understand outside of their own experiences.

I should add that deceit is incredibly important when it comes to consent, no a transgendered person should't have to spew out their life history but they have an obligation to respect the wishes of potential partners which may mean no casual encounters.

I think this is a trickier subject than you make it out to be, because there are still very negative implications to outing yourself as transsexual. It opens you up to a lot of abuse, and can have people who previously accepted you as a woman refusing to acknowledge you as one in the future. Should a bisexual person also have to out themselves in case someone is uncomfortable having sex with a guy who's had sex with other men? I imagine there are a fair few people, particularly decades ago, who would find the idea repulsive.

While I don't think that this was your intention, labeling it as "deceit" comes with a lot of negative connotations, including the one that people get hung up on the most often, being "They lied to me in telling me that they were a man/woman".

then you probably have something that you should work out.

You probably have something you need to work out before making unsubstantiated and fallacious accusations.

I'm sorry if it sounded like I was directing this at you specifically, I was using a general "you" throughout this post and probably should have made that clear.

That being said, I stand by my belief that someone who can't accept a transsexual person as anything beyond the physical characteristics they were born with has something to work out. The evidence points strongly towards transsexuals having brains that work like their preferred gender, and if you find someone attractive and can't get past the idea of "Eww, they were a man", then that's an issue. You might not be able to change it, but I don't consider it something you should be comfortable with thinking.

Once again... general you

 

[GundamSentinel]

And this is why you should read the entire thread before commenting upon what people have said in the thread. You see the latter part of my post, where it says calling a transwoman a man is offensive? That was referring to the poem, because that's pretty much what it's doing. The assault of trans people came in as part of the discussion where people brought up how the scenario described in the joke has a habit of resulting in the transwoman being assaulted, not in the man killing himself in shame.

I comment on what I read in OP (and just in OP, mind you). You reply to me. I am to read up non-related discussions in the rest of the thread before replying back. Fuck logic. :S

Question about the avatar where does it come from?

It's from Gundam Unicorn. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_Suit_Gundam_Unicorn]

 

[Bocaj2000]

1) This actually anti-transphobic and plays on absurdist humor.
2) A prejudiced character does not equal a prejudiced author.
3) An oppressive atmosphere needs oppression.
3a) A dark atmosphere needs darkness.

 

[Tsun Tzu]

I'm starting to approach things like this with a sort of... weary resignation. In much the same way that I had to just get used to the far right peddling their particular brand of insanity, I'm having to accept that this group of censorious, puritanical fucks just so happens to be on my side of the political spectrum.

But, hey, the first responses are kind of reasonable.

OT: Mildly offensive joke that a backer wanted included in the game. I would say that Obsidian probably should've said no to it, but its their game, their choice if they want to edit it or not. I'll be getting the game eventually regardless because Obsidian is one of my favourite developers.

So I guess there's nothing for it, really. What's the use in getting annoyed or upset by it. I mean, it's not like this petulant bitching is actually having an affect on the indu-

https://twitter.com/jesawyer/status/582200461127634945

...I don't want to live on this planet anymore.

capcha: roll over. indeed, capcha.

-stry... Ugh!

Ok, fine, at least it can't get any more ridicu-

"Cisplaining"

Ya know what? Nevermind.

The implication that trans women are gay men trying to trick straight men into having sex with them? Yes, it has. In fact, earlier this year, its what caused a trans woman to be set on fire.

1. I didn't get that implication from the poem. At all. It sucks if you did. It's almost as if these things are subjective.

2. #NotAllTrans, but an individual? Why the fuck not? Some people are assholes. You know this.

3. Violence being perpetuated against individuals in the past or present is irrelevant to the joke/poem, as the 'trans' (which they're likely not, given the setting) person was not killed or otherwise harmed. Further, the joke/poem's content does not incite violence/aggression against the 'trans' individual in any way, shape, or form.


And... fuck me, man. It's the SAME people (myself included) in here, on either side, spouting the same shit.

How many people are actually using these forums? It sincerely seems like there's maybe 100 or so, tops, who fill up all these pages with circular 'debate.'

Okay, this is something I don't get. I can understand if you simply don't find a penis attractive when you're attracted to women, or you don't find someone attractive while or after they've transitioned using hormone therapy, but why does it matter to so many people what gender someone was born?

Ya know...it really doesn't matter whether or not you understand it. If someone is just uncomfortable sleeping with a transexual, that's their prerogative.

Also,

Once again though, STD's are something that are actually harmful, and I don't think that's a fair comparison.

Psychological trauma isn't harmful? For some people its obviously traumatic and a violation thats almost akin to being raped (from their perspective).

This.

 

[Knight Captain Kerr]

Based on what I know about Obsidian and Josh Sawyer this may well have been an oversight and something they otherwise wouldn't have included. Of course the possibility that the developers actually want to remove something and aren't being forced or otherwise coerced into doing it is probably something a lot of people won't even think of.

I haven't played Pillars yet but I'm looking forward to seeing how gender is seen by different cultures in the setting, especially a setting where reincarnation is something that happens and everyone knows it. Everyone in the world almost certainly has/will be a different sex than they are now.

 

[ClockworkAngel]

In terms of things that are really harming the trans community, this poem is pretty benign. Nobody is going to remember this poem when the dust settles, so it strikes me as funny that people are getting so worked up over it, and in a lot of places are veering way off-subject.

This poem reminds me of a lot of television I remember, when cross-dressers and trans people were the low-hanging fruit of comedy. "Hurr durr it turns out she was a man"-type stuff. Maybe it's still like that, I don't know. I don't watch a lot of new shows these days. It's not entirely harmless in that it (possibly) quietly reinforces the idea that transvestites and trans people are ripe for comedy and things to be laughed at, but not devastating enough to make a big stink over. The poem is entirely forgettable.

 

[Shinkicker444]

This is why we can't have nice things.

The Pillar's world is a dark place, or did you miss all the baby and mother murdering?

 

[Redryhno]

snip

Ok...so you don't have an answer and only made the last response as a catch-22? People aren't allowed to be uncomfortable with someone that spent a substantial part of their life as one gender wishing to be another and the rest as the gender they want wanting to bone them and having second thoughts about the boning on account of personal reasons? You said to let them down easy, and I asked how with something that was supposed to be taken as a funny and you then go and say that it shouldn't matter? Which is it buddy?

As for your question, I don't know exactly. I think there's a number of men in the world that are handsome, doesn't mean I want to bump uglies with them, and I certainly don't want to go to bed with a woman to find out she's got the same floppy bit of nerves and skin that I do. And even without floppy appendage, being told is going to have an effect because one of the things that's always gonna be in the back of your mind is that you're technically having sex with a guy at some point(forget the physical characteristics, and even rarer conditions you went to the trouble of making a big deal out of), you're sleeping with somebody that has a genetic makeup even more similar to you than normal, and I just find the idea unsettling, for the same reason I find sex with a gay guy unsettling, I'm not going to complain about them liking it, but I don't find the idea appealing in the slightest.

People can be fine with it and enjoy it, that's fine, but I don't really care for it. Especially if I wasn't told beforehand.

 

[dragonswarrior]

This is why we can't have nice things.

The Pillar's world is a dark place, or did you miss all the baby and mother murdering?

This isn't there to set up a dark atmosphere. This is there as a joke. It's there to make people laugh, and it ties into a culture and a set of conceptions that leads to a depressingly high number of violent murders and suicides every year.