Obsidian Does it Again

[The Madman]

So you never played the Neverwinter Nights 2 expansion Mask of the Betrayer then? Pity, it was damned good. Probably the best piece of singleplayer content in the entire NWN franchise thus far, beating even Biowares efforts at the series I'd say.

Ah well, your loss.

As for Obsidian, they really do need to figure something out. Their games being so consistently buggy is not something that can be missed and it's really harming their reputation as a developer. That said I also love the studio, I really do. I'd take a buggy and flawed Obisidian game over the latest Bungie or Infinity Ward game anyday. Dunno why, but there's just something about Obsidian and the way they create games which appeals to me, bugs aside. They've also really got a knack for interesting story and, just as importantly, they seem to be one of the few studios out there capable of writing genuinely interesting dialogue. It's amazing how rare that seems to be in the games industry!

Troika were the same way for me. I love all the games Troika made right up till Vampire: Bloodlines, another notoriously buggy but brilliant piece of work. I just don't want Obsidian to end up facing the same fate Troika did, they deserve better! So Obsidian, please, get a better testing group or something!

 

[Fumbleumble]

The only Obsidian game I've played is KotoR 2, which I quite like despite the ending. (Thank god for that restoration mod. It still isn't perfect, but it at least makes a bit more sense thanks to that) And for KotoR 2's problems, I do indeed blame Lucasarts. Obsidian even offered to release a mass content patch to restore all the missing plotlines and dialogues, but Lucasarts wouldn't let them for some incomprehensible reason. Gwaaaaaaaah!

Ok, here's a supposition based on what another wrote about the unfinished nature of KotOR2 being the result of a redesign caused by inappropriate material for the franchise...

Instead of automatically jumping to the conclusion that Lucasarts are just a mean spirited bunch of mindless jerks (certainly not ruling it out.. but just suppose..).. is it possible that Ob's 'finished, content restoring patch' was more of the same inappropriate material that Lucasarts weren't willing to insert in to their franchise and as a result weren't willing to have it released for that reason?... either way, it would still seem that Ob wasted most of their dev time, screwing the pooch.

 

[Fumbleumble]

So you never played the Neverwinter Nights 2 expansion Mask of the Betrayer then? Pity, it was damned good. Probably the best piece of singleplayer content in the entire NWN franchise thus far, beating even Biowares efforts at the series I'd say.

Ah well, your loss.

Is it so unreasonable to accept that after the wallet raping mess of NWN2 that some people were unwillng to throw good money after bad in order to have the game experience they should have gotten with the first?

As far as I'm concerned the purchase of an expansion,a sequel or DLC, is to support the first product IF it was good... NOT an excuse to allow the devs to make good on the promises they made first time round.

 

[The Madman]

Is it so unreasonable to accept that after the wallet raping mess of NWN2 that some people were unwillng to throw good money after bad in order to have the game experience they should have gotten with the first?

As far as I'm concerned an the purchase of an expansion is to support the first product, IF it was good... NOT an excuse to allow the devs to make good on the promises they made first time round.

Never condemned anyone for not player Mask, like I said, it's your loss. Makes no big difference to me whether you play it or not! But if you're a fan of rpg and the Forgotten Realms setting, especially if you're also a sucker for Planescape style grim and crazed adventures, then I'm inclined to think you're missing out and thus why I said it was a pity Shamus hadn't played it.

Besides, the original NWN2 campaign wasn't bad by any means. True the ending was utter shit, no denial there, but I think people tend to gloss over just how bad the original NWN campaign was as well because NWN2's campaign is art by comparison. Of course saying that something is better 'in comparison' is never really a compliment either, but I enjoyed NWN2's campaign while it lasted. The introduction for the warlock, Ammo Jerro I believe his name was, was actually pretty damned cool as was the siege which takes place later on. That it's been years since I played the campaign and yet I still remember certain parts fondly is always a good sign! Meanwhile the bugs and engine flaws were largely fixed via a shit load of patches and post-release support from Obsidian, which was nice as well.

So while Obsidian might have its problems, certainly, I don't really think NWN2 was one of them. The game shipped flawed, no doubt there. But it was never anything so annoying I couldn't keep playing while the continued support from Obsidian helped to blossom a modding community which is still highly active today. Plus not to forget Mask of the Betrayer, which I thought was fantastic! And again; mods. There are some extremely good campaign out there for NWN2! So for what its worth I'd say I've more than gotten my moneys worth out of NWN2.

Regardless this is all also a matter of opinion. And if you read the post you're quoting you'll know I'm hardly glossing over the studios flaws as a company. Obsidian needs to shape up quickly or else risk sharing the same fate as Troika. I just also happen to be a fan of Obsidian regardless. I enjoy their games, I enjoy the story they write, the characters they create, and I'm willing to work past any flaws in order experience those things. Some people aren't however which is perfectly understandable, which is why Obsidian needs to shape up. They can't keep releasing their games in such a flawed state if they ever want to hit it big with a game which isn't just a continuation of another devs IP.

 

[acronix]

This seems like as good as place as any to ask...

Outside of bugginess, is New Vegas any good? Mainly the story? Or is it just as "good" as Fallout 3?

I wasn't a huge fan of Fallout 3, mainly because I thought the story was terrible, but I really liked the environments and some of the combat parts were OK, so I would be willing to give New Vegas a shot if the story was good.

Regarding story, it´s way better. Not earth-shaking, though, but much better. It has internal coherence, but won´t blow up your mind.

Combat is better, but tougher. VATS has been modified and isn´t a in-cheating system anymore. Companions are actually useful this time around (but like to wander away too often, even on passive, which means they get incapacitated/killed if not careful). They also changed how armor works, so you need to change ammunition types.

The real strenght of New Vegas is in dialogue and side-quests. Dialogue is just in another dimension: your character isn´t a blatant moron anymore. All side-quests I´ve done had at least two ways or three ways to be completed, and there´s quite a lot of them.

The setting isn´t as nice, if you ask me. Bethesda is just superb at making enviorements, and the Mojave Wasteland can´t be compared in that regard. However, buildings and settlements are much bigger, and therefore, realistic. Interiors, particulary.

 

[Fumbleumble]

Is it so unreasonable to accept that after the wallet raping mess of NWN2 that some people were unwillng to throw good money after bad in order to have the game experience they should have gotten with the first?

As far as I'm concerned an the purchase of an expansion is to support the first product, IF it was good... NOT an excuse to allow the devs to make good on the promises they made first time round.

Never condemned anyone for not player Mask, like I said, it's your loss. Makes no big difference to me whether you play it or not! But if you're a fan of rpg and the Forgotten Realms setting, especially if you're also a sucker for Planescape style grim and crazed adventures, then I'm inclined to think you're missing out and thus why I said it was a pity Shamus hadn't played it.

Besides, the original NWN2 campaign wasn't bad by any means. True the ending was utter shit, no denial there, but I think people tend to gloss over just how bad the original NWN campaign was as well because NWN2's campaign is art by comparison. Of course saying that something is better 'in comparison' is never really a compliment either, but I enjoyed NWN2's campaign while it lasted. The introduction for the warlock, Ammo Jerro I believe his name was, was actually pretty damned cool as was the siege which takes place later on. That it's been years since I played the campaign and yet I still remember certain parts fondly is always a good sign! Meanwhile the bugs and engine flaws were largely fixed via a shit load of patches and post-release support from Obsidian, which was nice as well.

So while Obsidian might have its problems, certainly, I don't really think NWN2 was one of them. The game shipped flawed, no doubt there. But it was never anything so annoying I couldn't keep playing while the continued support from Obsidian helped to blossom a modding community which is still highly active today. Plus not to forget Mask of the Betrayer, which I thought was fantastic! And again; mods. There are some extremely good campaign out there for NWN2! So for what its worth I'd say I've more than gotten my moneys worth out of NWN2.

Regardless this is all also a matter of opinion. And if you read the post you're quoting you'll know I'm hardly glossing over the studios flaws as a company. Obsidian needs to shape up quickly or else risk sharing the same fate as Troika. I just also happen to be a fan of Obsidian regardless. I enjoy their games, I enjoy the story they write, the characters they create, and I'm willing to work past any flaws in order experience those things. Some people aren't however which is perfectly understandable, which is why Obsidian needs to shape up. They can't keep releasing their games in such a flawed state if they ever want to hit it big with a game which isn't just a continuation of another devs IP.

Nope.. I didn't gloss over anything, I read it, but only had something to say about the part I commented on... my feelings about the rest are quite clear...

The 'your loss' part sounded a bit high and mighty (not overly so.. just enough to prompt a comment)

As for what you say about NWN2.. the OC is bad enough (for me anyway) to regret the waste of money, but that's not really the issue.. and certainly not the main part of most people's disappointment, nay, anger at the product... it's the buggy broken mess it was out of the box... and the two expansions it took to fix the blasted thing, that's the real issue.

It's been agreed here that Ob are capable of good storytellling and original thought... but it's also agreed that they cannot, with any satisfaction, execute those high ideals.. and any attempts to do so are laughable from a quality point of view.

Kinda like me trying to read a very good book, but a few important the pages are missing and some of it's written in Chinese.... It's hard to enjoy the storytelling when you have to wade through a lot of crap just to get to it.

 

[Eclectic Dreck]

Personally, I have found the game no more buggy than Fallout 3, and only marginally less stable. I would certainly like the game to be better, but I'd have to be insane and stupid to expect such a thing. The base game was buggy and it was expanded upon by a company known to take a working product and make it buggier.

Don't say that! We have the right to ask for more for our hard earned money. Other companies produce games with significantly less bugs and sell them for $50 - $60. Bethesda/Obsidian expect you to pay the same for their game with bugs up the a*s. Why should we pay the same price for a worse product?

I can say that all I please. I bought the game knowing full well that the result would be riddled with technical problems and bugs. I bought it knowing that many of these would never be fixed. I bought it knowing that it is certainly possible that many of the bugs I would inevitably find could have been fixed.

My right as a consumer is this and only this. I can choose to buy a product or not. I was not forced to purchase New Vegas and I did it knowing that the resulting product would be, to put it politely, imperfect. I will not stand around and demand that they do better because I paid for the game. I knew that they wouldn't. The only party to blame for any disappointment I have in this case is myself, and truth be told I am not dissapointed in the least precisely because I made my decision based on the established pattern of Bethesda, Fallout 3, and Obsidian.

If I purchased the game thinking that, perhaps this time I would get a game that worked great out of the gate then I'd have to question my ability to reason. Bethesda's last several games have been riddled with bugs. Fallout 3 was worse than most. Obsidian, as a company, has never made a game without glaring problems. What in that pedigree would make you think you were going to get a well crafted product?

 

[ImSkeletor]

I have played the game for well over 20 hours and I havent encountered a single glitch and I played Fallout 3 for well over 100 hours and only had one small glitch. So I can't comprehend that it was THAT glitchy for Shamus and a lot of other people.

 

[Nurb]

If they'd add return of software that is found to be unsatisfactory or broken on release to the consumer rights laws, you'd see developers start finishing and polishing their games real quick.

Demanding your money back over extremely broken gameplay experiences is completely in the right, but policies of "no refunds for open software" are abused to rush games.

 

[LittleChone]

They're irrational. Let's put it that way.

 

[Fumbleumble]

Hmmm. To be honest I think we're riding Obsidian a bit too hard here. I actually think a big part of their issue is that they have had a horrendous string of luck in finding the right publishers and business partners.

As I understand the issue, their problem is very similar to what happened with "Troika" in that they tend to want to make games for a mature audience, and when they actually develop at an "M" level as opposed to a "T" level being presented as an "M" level, the people backing them tend to freak out. This leads to a lot of abandoned code, and in many cases with them going back to previous builds of a game shortly before release when people outside of their team who have a say, tell them to basically cut out integral parts of the content.

While it's primarily a story about Troika, there was a big issue with how Atari forced them to basically gut "Temple Of Elemental Evil" because of a lot of content that was based on quests out of a whorehouse. That whorehouse still exists in the code, along with most of the quest assets, and there have been patches to unlock it. Supposedly the infamous "gay pirate dentist" bit was a deliberate act of rebellion on their part right before their company went under.

Allegedly something very similar happened with "Neverwinter Nights 2" where several entire romance questlines were removed from the game, including a lot of material featuring a certain Tiefling thief. Not to mention the oft-commented on bit about how the Neverwinter festhall transformed into a dancehall in the second game.

Bethesda is one of those companies that used to have something of a reputation for making fairly risque games and not being afraid to push the envelope. While the graphics weren't great, some might remember the "adult filters" present in "Arena" and "Daggerfall". If you had them turned off you'd run into NPCs (albiet unmoving stilled ones) in various compromised positions and the like as you moved through the game.

Bethesda on the other hand pretty much lost any guts they had, and started cow-towing to the ESRB and FCC not too long ago. There was this big thing about them absolutly freaking out over fan-made nude and sex patches because they got attention from "the authorities".

Given the kinds of things we've seen from the people making up Obsidian in the past, and the existance of things like "FISTO" it does make me wonder how much was cut from the game, and if they were again forced to go back to an earlier build in the 11th hour.

I think Obsidian's problem might be that it's simply difficult to be a developer of games for a Mature audience, in an industry currently infested with spinelessness. Something that is going to get worse if The Supreme Court winds up giving the goverment the abillity to violate our freedom of speech when it comes to video games.

Truthfully, I think we'll see better quality from Obsidian if they wind up ever being given total creative control over their own product, and no producers standing over their shoulder, getting all miffed when an "M" rated game actually winds up being well... Mature.

Sorry mate.. I'm really not looking to flame you... but this is utter ROT :/

MAYBE.. I would have accepted this as an excuse (and that's really all your post amounts too :/) one or two games back... but for them to royally screw up every game they've ever been involved with is just simply too much of a coincidence..... it's their work ethic that is wrong here.. nothing else... after so much, as you put it, 'bad luck' /) you really have to start calling a spade a fucking shovel...

..and as for 'Freedom of Speech'... that CERTAINLY doesn't cover retail outlets selling 'mature' material to those NOT of an age to buy it.. (which is what the legislation is all about...if parents are too ignortant and lazy to monitor what material their kids are exposed to then someone has to do it..full stop.. nothing even resembling a first amendment issue there)

When we come to the subject of control over their projects.. they get no less than most other companies of their size and they still have the worst rep and poorest workable quality around... so that doesn't cut it as an excuse either.

As for the 'too difficult to produce mature material' argument..KotOR2 certainly wasn't mature.. and neither was NWN2.. and they were a bloody mess...Anyway, why would it be so 'difficult' for them to make a mature game when The Witcher's CD Pojekt Red can handle it acceptable well, and Ob have orders of magnitude more experience in game making than them?.. is it possible they would be trying to make a 'mature' game for a market in which it is inappropriate (see the KotOR2 post).. That boils down to being their own fault too.

The fact is.. Ob just can't cut it in the modern gamemaking environment.. and because of that they are very deserving of becoming extinct added to their existing irrelevence.

Nicely worded post though.. just not very indicative of the realities of the situation... a bit too much wishful thinking and willingness to pass the buck.

oh its obsidian's work ethic is it? how about its bethesda's fault in choosing a shitty fucking engine? obsidian only deals what with its got. obsidian has an excuse while BETHESDA DOES NOT. bethesda can PAY for the cutting edge in engines yet they still rely on havoc, the POS engine that is FAR more archiac than the source engine.

everyone rips on obsidian, yet when bethesda does the same FUCKING SHIT in the most lazy way possible they get praised? talk about hypocritical bullshit. obsidian put more meat in fallout new vegas than bethesda put into oblivion and fallout 3 COMBINED. bethesda is nothing more than a group of posers who are riding on the rep from the past team pre-reformation. they put NO effort into their games, they have NO concern for story, they have NO concern for quality because it sells like shit cakes away. bethesda is the one that should be defunct, not obsidian.

Hello Mister Kneejerk....first let me set something straight..I'm not trolling... RTFT

Now to what I can only assume pass for 'points' to you....

'Osbidian only works with what they have'... are you being SERIOUS???...is this supposed to excuse them for EVERY PRODUCT THEY HAVE EVER ATTEMPTED.. and btw.. didn't it ever DAWN on you that if they are only using what the are given... then HOW IN HELL with the support from the original creator of the engine can they CONSTANTLY AND PERSISTANTLY COCK THINGS UP SO BADLY (am I doing this right.. is this a suitable tone to be taking in reply to your own?)

'Everyone rips on Obsidian'... DAMN TOOTIN'.. and they deserve it EVERY BLASTED TIME... do you know why Bethesda and Bioware don't get royally pillared for the same bugs...because we can at least recognise their effort...wrap your head round this... they CREATE the thing in the first place.. to create it from scratch then put everything else into it takes a hell of a lot more effort than being given a finished product and only having to clean it up and insert story... and that's all Ob have EVER done (minus the cleaning up bit, of course), I mean MY GOD MAN!!! Bio gave them the engine for Fallout, PS:T, Icewind Dale, KotOR AND NWN2, the engine for AP came from EPIC and now they are getting Bethesda's hand-me-downs... GOOD GRIEF.. and they still make a dog's dinner of their projects.

So before you return with an easily exploitable arguement and an equally undesireable chip on your shoulder.. think next time before you relentlessly (and pointlessly I may say :/) bang you fingers on the keyboard.

Buh-Bye now.

 

[Tdc2182]

....Especially for the tech retarded people like me who immediately think "My game must be scratched, darn." and end up spending 60 dollars on more random bullshit.

Im glad I didn't get to into Fallout 3.

 

[The Madman]

Nope.. I didn't gloss over anything, I read it, but only had something to say about the part I commented on... my feelings about the rest are quite clear...

The 'your loss' part sounded a bit high and mighty (not overly so.. just enough to prompt a comment)

As for what you say about NWN2.. the OC is bad enough (for me anyway) to regret the waste of money, but that's not really the issue.. and certainly not the main part of most people's disappointment, nay, anger at the product... it's the buggy broken mess it was out of the box... and the two expansions it took to fix the blasted thing, that's the real issue.

It's been agreed here that Ob are capable of good storytellling and original thought... but it's also agreed that they cannot, with any satisfaction, execute those high ideals.. and any attempts to do so are laughable from a quality point of view.

Kinda like me trying to read a very good book, but a few important the pages are missing and some of it's written in Chinese.... It's hard to enjoy the storytelling when you have to wade through a lot of crap just to get to it.

You make it sound like NWN2 was completely unplayable when it was released and that it's widely hated, yet the game received agreeable reviews (82% on metacritic for example) and sold well enough to warrant two expansions and boast a thriving mod community. Personally while I found the game buggy to be certain, there was nothing game-breaking which I experienced and I rather enjoyed the campaign. True it wasn't fantastic and I wont pretend otherwise, but it was also far from the abomination you seem to be portraying NWN2 as.

So while I'm not trying to sound high and mighty... well, it IS your loss that you allowed an unfavorable first impression to color your thoughts on the entire franchise from that point forward. I really enjoyed Mask of the Betrayer and consider it to be the high-point of the entire NWN series in terms of singleplayer, and the mod community for NWN2 is fantastic. While there's not as large a library of mods for NWN2 as there are for NWN, many that have been released are of amazing quality and easily stand as miniature expansions in their own rights. Misery Stone for example is probably one of the highest quality and best fan-made campaigns for *any* rpg I've ever seen.

And again, as I stated in my initial post, I think it's a pity that both Shamus and yourself have never gotten to experience that. I really don't understand why you're up in arms over that statement! I've had a lot of fun with NWN2 since its release, both through expansions and fan content. Is it wrong I wish others could enjoy the game as much as I have?

 

[cystemic]

ive done about 13 hours on my copy on ps3, it hasnt crashed yet but i still save every time i walk 3 steps in case it does . awesome game so far

 

[JourneyThroughHell]

Yeah, I don't mind Obsidian as a developer, but I've just this second remembered that New Vegas, a game that's being hauled as the most buggy thing ever, is their work.

Sorry about that slot machine, Shamus.

Also, Alpha Protocol shouldn't even be in the same sentence with "polished", so they're 4 for 4.

 

[Abedeus]

Excuse me, one correction about NwN 2 - people didn't blame Atari. They blamed Obsidian. Atari was with Neverwinter Nights when it belonged to Bioware and that didn't affect the game - it was pure gold with chocolate sprinkles on it.

Obsidian simply doesn't know how to make sequels.

 

[Fumbleumble]

Nope.. I didn't gloss over anything, I read it, but only had something to say about the part I commented on... my feelings about the rest are quite clear...

The 'your loss' part sounded a bit high and mighty (not overly so.. just enough to prompt a comment)

As for what you say about NWN2.. the OC is bad enough (for me anyway) to regret the waste of money, but that's not really the issue.. and certainly not the main part of most people's disappointment, nay, anger at the product... it's the buggy broken mess it was out of the box... and the two expansions it took to fix the blasted thing, that's the real issue.

It's been agreed here that Ob are capable of good storytellling and original thought... but it's also agreed that they cannot, with any satisfaction, execute those high ideals.. and any attempts to do so are laughable from a quality point of view.

Kinda like me trying to read a very good book, but a few important the pages are missing and some of it's written in Chinese.... It's hard to enjoy the storytelling when you have to wade through a lot of crap just to get to it.

You make it sound like NWN2 was completely unplayable when it was released and that it's widely hated, yet the game received agreeable reviews (82% on metacritic for example) and sold well enough to warrant two expansions and boast a thriving mod community. Personally while I found the game buggy to be certain, there was nothing game-breaking which I experienced and I rather enjoyed the campaign. True it wasn't fantastic and I wont pretend otherwise, but it was also far from the abomination you seem to be portraying NWN2 as.

So while I'm not trying to sound high and mighty... well, it IS your loss that you allowed an unfavorable first impression to color your thoughts on the entire franchise from that point forward. I really enjoyed Mask of the Betrayer and consider it to be the high-point of the entire NWN series in terms of singleplayer, and the mod community for NWN2 is fantastic. While there's not as large a library of mods for NWN2 as there are for NWN, many that have been released are of amazing quality and easily stand as miniature expansions in their own rights. Misery Stone for example is probably one of the highest quality and best fan-made campaigns for *any* rpg I've ever seen.

And again, as I stated in my initial post, I think it's a pity that both Shamus and yourself have never gotten to experience that. I really don't understand why you're up in arms over that statement! I've had a lot of fun with NWN2 since its release, both through expansions and fan content. Is it wrong I wish others could enjoy the game as much as I have?

NWN2 WAS pretty much completely unplayable out of the box.. the engine issues were absolutely horrendous, the system requirements for the game (the REAL ones, not the BS Ob fed us) were UTTERLY unreasonable for the actual state of the graphics and the less we say about broken ruleset the better (did they ever get around to fixing the high dex build for Warlock? I know it wasn't fixed for the first expansion).. and amongst fans of the first, which was a pretty big fan base.. it WAS universally derided and hated..there was a very vocal minority who were willing to accept the game for the mess that it was.. but most were absolutely disgusted by it and at the time stayed with NWN1... and as for ANY critic website... they are a mixture of wildly inaccurate, sometime spot on, but wholly unreliable.. even so far as players site go (and it's all just opinion anyway).. lovers will love.. but haters tend to move on to something else.. not always, but it can be accepted as a rule of thumb.... you thought it was acceptable, I thought it was a hideous unplayable mess.. I guess we can both find someone who will agree with our mutually exclusive points of view.

As for any expansions.. from MY personal point of view, they could have been the best thing since sliced bread.. but Ob don't deserve penny one, from further expanded sales because of the aborted mess of the first one I shelled out for and was only fixed by shelling out more... no stand alone updated content patches for this product.. unlike those I can get got the original NWN... and as long as you raise the issue... Obsidian don't deserve an iota of credit for their community.. not one jot.... in fact if anything, the community deserves the credit for giving the game the shelflife that it had.

Well I CERTAINLY don't speak for Shamus.. but from my own point of view.. it all comes down to bang for my buck.. and allowing myself to be duped a couple of times by Obsidian's quite unworthy effort.. I believed in them enough to fork out for two of their (Obsidians) products (I learn quickly) and watched the explosions over the rest.. and nothing has ever dissuaded me from the opinion that Ob's products simply aren't worthy of their hype or the money... and believe me.. I've put the money that I WOULD have spent (had they been a developer of any worth, because I like the sound of their games, just not the piss poor quality) to far better use on something that I have enjoyed.. so on balance.. no enjoyment lost.

( I really have to sleep now, and that's a pity because I'm really enjoying this thread.. I'll be back later.... night night, or morning, morning rather :/)