Obsidian Hopes "Digital Distribution Stabs the Used Game Market in the Heart"

[AstylahAthrys]

The main reason I buy used games is because the developers themselves are not stocking the game on shelves anymore. I don't always get around to playing games right after they come out, so when I go to finally pick a copy up, all I can get is used. Also, it can't be that bad when game sales are skyrocketing and everything else is terrible. And at least, unlike piracy, the amount of copies sold=the amount of players owning the game. Yes, it's not the greatest system ever, but it's a capitalist market, so it can't be helped.

Also, can someone tell me exactly how other used products are okay to resell but not games? I see that argument everywhere and it doesn't make sense to me. Manufacturers work putting together cars, and a used car means they're not getting paid for a sale of a new car. A comic book artist had to put hard work into the comic, yet resale of comics aren't complained about. Maybe I'm completely missing the point. I dunno. I'm not an economist.

 

[RandV80]

That seems to be what the used game market amounts to these days, getting a big new release, playing through it, then immediately trading it in for credit on next months big release.

Some people do that. Other people, who don't have much money, will shop around for a pre-owned game they want to play that costs less than a box fresh version. How is this a problem? Isn't this the entire ethos of intelligent consumerism, to buy the exact same product at a lower price? You can't blame people for wanting to pay less money.

I'm just going to quote this part. Of course people can still save money by buying the game used. What I'm more getting at is unless things are different in different parts of the world, at the biggest & primary used retailer Game Stop, the used games are generally only $5 cheaper than the new release. That's hardly a saving. I could be wrong but it seems where most of the used game flow and gamer saving comes from is immediately trading in a newer game in order to get the next newest game. You may only save $5 now buying Skyrim used instead of new, but if you trade in Uncharted 3 they'll give you a solid $20-30 for it.

This is a great business model for Gamestop, but it's a poor consumer model and even worse for developers. Believe me while I've been shopping the used game stores for a long time now, back in the SNES/Genesis days when they were all small independent stores, and more recently from around 2000-2005 I was a frequent EB Games (Gamestop in Canada) used game buyer. If I look at the games today compared to 7+ years ago I got much better prices, today's prices look like a raw deal. Compare that again to the even better deals I get with digital distribution on Steam, it's just no contest.

Don't get me wrong I'm not touting the industry line that used games are the devil and becoming worse than piracy I'm just saying most people are getting a raw deal on them, based on past experience and alternative options.

(Edit: Unless you can manage like AstylahAthrys above does, but the publishers/developers never complained about used games when people were playing the used market like that.)

 

[Cecilthedarkknight_234]

-snip-

That's all as well as may be however a few things here that need be said. First the viability of their business model should not be something I, as a consumer, need worry about. Costs too high? Their problem, not mine. Not enough people buying new? Again their problem not mine. This is all things that are INTERNAL problems that should never, EVER, be blamed on the consumer. Those are self inflicted problems with their business model. If they can't balance income vs cost in the free market then maybe they need to fail.

The great thing about a free market is that at the end of the day the products that people want to buy are the products that will ultimately succeed. If their product isn't selling well then they need to ask what THEY are doing wrong not what the customers are doing wrong. The customers are there only to buy, or not buy, their product. By blaming used sales they are blaming the free market, and by extension consumers, for their own failings. .

Secondly to claim the gaming industry is hurting in any way shape or form is pure and utter garbage. The game industry has been posting RECORD SALES AND PROFITS in one of the worst economies in over a century. Gaming is one of the few industries that has not only not been hurt by the economy but has managed to grow despite of it.

Thirdly just because we see some companies going under this doesn't herald the end of the industry. It's just the natural progression of any industry. Some companies don't make it. Meanwhile, others thrive. It's just the way of things.

Finally I refuse to believe that over the multiple centuries that items have been bought and sold while every other single maker and seller of goods has managed to do just fine with their goods being bought and sold second hand that video games are somehow deserving of special treatment against the used market that no other maker and seller of goods has EVER enjoyed.

If they ever succeed in doing away with the used market they will be selling us literally worthless products. The games they sell us will have absolutely ZERO value once they have our money. Sure the publishers make out like bandits with that scenario but the consumers would be getting totally and utterly fucked over.

Except that console market will ultimately fail.

You refuse to acknowledge that console gaming and PC gaming two different entities. Its only PC gaming and casual gaming that is growing. The console market has been shrinking for well over a decade.

Profits do not mean shit in terms of market health. You need to put those numbers in perspective. If a company makes 100 million dollars, but their games cost them 99 million, that's a low return. People may see a high number, but in perspective of the market its not that good. This is normal for a AAA game.

console gaming is run by a monopoly. Very few companies can even operate in the console market. That requires capital that cannot be gained easily. Once you're kicked out of the market, you cant get back in. Its getting smaller and smaller while PC gaming is getting bigger. This is why a company can post such high profits, there is literally little competition in terms of companies and games being released. This is also why a console developer or publisher struggling is a bad herald for the whole market. It should not be that hard to succeed in a market where few companies operate. You are the only game in town.

These are not their own failings. These are the problems of the console manufacturers. They delegate the cost to the developers, who delegate the cost to you. Its simple pricing, and trying to use second hand sales would only kill the market. In a world where people want to play console games but refuse to support it, this spells disaster not only for a consumer but for the economy at large.

The value of the game is technically irrelevant. PC gaming has been growing and no one cares for "game value." PC gaming WILL survive the fall of console gaming, but console gaming is on its death bed. Used game sales would only kill consoles much like the 1980s.

The console market might die in usa but it is still strong across the seas. Now maybe if states wasn't so prude about games like visual novels or other such content, consoles would not have to worry so much. The other factor is region locking, i don't care what reason there is this only hurts the market more, let people play a game on any system from any country this isn't the 90's anymore where being worried about objective content.

Now you say this just like the market crash back in the 80's but what your forgetting is that, there was an over saturation of low end software with little appeal "looking at wii american games with all the shovel ware, guitar hero every year for 4-5 years straight that cost over 130 dollars each etc" it's not pre-owned games that are hurting the market it's the amount of crap keeps coming out.

Now I am willing to admit if you are stupid enough to buy a pre-owned game for 55us dollars instead of brand new for 60 then the said developer does lose money but so does the pre-own shop. They have to give back x amount for game "around 30-40 dollars credit for new release game" then put the put the game in inventory, attach preowned stickers, and most of all pay some one to do this, so in the end they only make around 5-10 dollar profit if that off of used sale when it's all said/done but you forgot to take that into account. Nothing will stop me from buying used games if i can not find a new hard-copy or if went out of print with older systems, if companies want to combat this then use decent dlc like in fallout 3, new vegas etc so they will have a way to make extra profit...rant over

 

[Aeshi]

Finally I refuse to believe that over the multiple centuries that items have been bought and sold while every other single maker and seller of goods has managed to do just fine with their goods being bought and sold second hand that video games are somehow deserving of special treatment against the used market that no other maker and seller of goods has EVER enjoyed.

Believe it or not there is a difference between Software and Physical Products.

If you buy a used Car/Book/Whatever it's usually worse than a new one due to wear and tear caused by use by the previous owner.

If you buy a used game it's still just as good as a new copy.

The reason Used Games are such a problem is that they are an opponent who can literally offer everything the developers themselves can for cheaper (and unlike Pirates, legitimately.) at no cost to themselves.

 

[rofltehcat]

Well, one thing about digital distribution, obsidian:
If you want to have digital distribution, make your games cost less when they are downloaded.
It would really solve a lot of your problems. No more discs and boxes to produce, so give the lower prices to the customers. You get more cheapskate customers (like me) who never buy a game at full price. And you make used game sales of the retail copies a lot less appealing.

However, I am sure you'll take a stupid approach like making online registry of all copies mandatory and thus prevent their resale. I won't pay "full price" for such a copy. Though unless it is a very good game - and I'm very nitpicky about what I buy full price - you wouldn't get my sale either way. Yeah, I will maybe buy your game when it is down at least 50%. Or maybe I'll buy it from one of those shops that buy copies in less developed countries and send their customers the serial number.

But you won't get full price from me. The price discounts are why Steam is so popular. Just saying 'yo, we'll just make our own online platform' won't cut it. Cutting out retailers and box production costs with a much lower price? Jup, then your online portal will be used.

 

[Tiswas]

I understand the devs being annoyed. But I only recall one game from them.

New Vegas.

A: That game was a mess. People sold it due to it being so buggy and it was reduced because word got around about how bad the bugs were. (I'm assuming this is why Skyrim is now 20.00 everywhere too.)
B: Others waited for the inevitible GOTY package with all the DLC

 

[Raddra]

How is the industry helped at all by used sales? [/quote]

1, You answered this yourself: They support the store they are sold to. High street presence = the games are there to be bought by shoppers.

This helps everyone in the industry stay alive and encourages more sales of all games. Millions of people ever year go 'oh look at this game' *swipe and sale* on a game they never intended to buy before they walked into that store bored, purely because that small store was there and caught their eye.

2, A sold game = store credit to buy a new game.

This is simplicity itself: most game stores give store credit when you trade in an old game. This is how my biggest gamer friend purchases all his new games.

3, The more players the better

By opening up retail sales to a larger segment of the market, used game sales mean that more people are playing games than would be in a world without them. Beyond the obvious advantages of bigger community sizes and word-of-mouth sales, a larger player base can benefit game developers who are ready to earn secondary income from their games. In-game ads are one source of this additional revenue, but the best scenario is downloadable content.

4, The used games market increases the perceived value of new games

Many factors come into play when a shopper decides if a specific game purchase is worth the money, and one of those factors is the perceived value from selling it back as a used game. In other words, people will pay more for a new game because they know they can get some of that money back when they trade it in.

 

[Bishop99999999]

My problem with the "It's my property!" argument lies in the vast gap between how much it costs to produce a game, and how much you actually pay for it.

A game console will only cost you a little bit more than what it cost the manufacturer to produce. If you buy it, then re-sell it, the manufacturer doesn't care: They got their investment back (and then some). They made a profit, thereby sustaining their industry to continue producing more. A similar argument can be made for re-selling your iPod, or your car, or other similar physical goods. The manufacturer gets their value back with each unit initially sold.

But video games don't quite work like that. Like a movie or music, you are producing an experience, an intangible period of enjoyment that cost money to produce, but does not have an actual definable physical component. The DVD itself isn't the game; it's just how the product is transported. So since they can't recoup the cost of producing the game with each copy sold. they need as many people giving them money for the work they created as possible. So if you are enjoying the product of their work, without paying them for it, it's easy to understand that they feel you are stealing from them.

If I pay for a game, I like to think that I'm supporting the developers instead of GameStop.

 

[SenseOfTumour]

Here's my viewpoint:

No, the games companies shouldn't be able to make used games sales illegal, however I'm all for them making it more well known that by buying used, you're not supporting the people who create the games you love.

A positive promotional campaign, done right, would probably have a hundred times more effect on gamers, who I think as a group are more likely to get behind things they like than the average guy in the street, that the other option, which is continually drip feeding us press releases about how evil their own customers are for buying used, and how they're going to restrict us in various stupid ways.

I also kind of support project ten dollar, so long as it's only used to support the multiplayer angle, as servers cost money. That's if they can't in some way offer the player the ability to host, which SHOULD be there. (As ever, "wah wah, we can't control everything", seemed to stop that option coming up over the past couple of years.)

I do think a vast amount of this is down to how the companies are perceived, and if they'd only try appealing to their customers instead of blaming them, they may find they get better results.

As for the idea of splitting used and new games, so one store can't stock both.

I see a future with Gamestops having a small MDF partition in the corner, dimly lit, storing the new games section, and the other 80% or so of the store packed to the ceililng with used stuff. Hell, that's probably already happening without that.

 

[Xanthious]

Finally I refuse to believe that over the multiple centuries that items have been bought and sold while every other single maker and seller of goods has managed to do just fine with their goods being bought and sold second hand that video games are somehow deserving of special treatment against the used market that no other maker and seller of goods has EVER enjoyed.

Believe it or not there is a difference between Software and Physical Products.

If you buy a used Car/Book/Whatever it's usually worse than a new one due to wear and tear caused by use by the previous owner.

If you buy a used game it's still just as good as a new copy.

The reason Used Games are such a problem is that they are an opponent who can literally offer everything the developers themselves can for cheaper (and unlike Pirates, legitimately.) at no cost to themselves.

Wrong. Every argument you just made for used software I could make for a used book a used DVD/Blu Ray or used CD. A used book/movie/CD is essentially identical to a new one in every way that matters. Hell used books have existed for centuries and books have managed to persevere just fine. Just imagine if the book industry was filled with as many whiny cunts as the game industry they'd have been crying foul for centuries.

Furthermore, your claim used games are "identical" to new copies is a false one as well. Ya ever buy a used game? Ya ever look at the disc and notice scratches? Yeah that's wear and tear. Ya ever get a used game without the original case and book? Again another example of a used copy being inferior to a new copy. Can you find used copies that are as good as new? Of course but you can do that for anything ranging from furniture to books.

The bottom line is that games are NOT special. They don't deserve special treatment when it comes to the used market. The cunts in the gaming industry can go get fucked with their beliefs otherwise. Everyone else out there making and selling things manages to do just find in spite of used sales. The gaming industry need to pull the stick from their ass and move on.

 

[iLikeHippos]

Discs will inevitably become out-dated, and digital distribution will rule the market. Simply because it's exceedingly easier, cheaper and more convenient, not to mention never being ruled out from the business equator of used games and the environmental-friendly attitude.


His lamentations are pointless, as far as I am concerned. Things will change within the coming years, and there's little to be done against it.
He might as well invest in a fine bottle of chardonnay or champagne to celebrate with, once the day do cometh.

 

[Bishop99999999]

Wrong. Every argument you just made for used software I could make for a used book a used DVD/Blu Ray or used CD. A used book/movie/CD is essentially identical to a new one in every way that matters. Hell used books have existed for centuries and books have managed to persevere just fine. Just imagine if the book industry was filled with as many whiny cunts as the game industry they'd have been crying foul for centuries.

Furthermore, your claim used games are "identical" to new copies is a false one as well. Ya ever buy a used game? Ya ever look at the disc and notice scratches? Yeah that's wear and tear. Ya ever get a used game without the original case and book? Again another example of a used copy being inferior to a new copy. Can you find used copies that are as good as new? Of course but you can do that for anything ranging from furniture to books.

The bottom line is that games are NOT special. They don't deserve special treatment when it comes to the used market. The cunts in the gaming industry can go get fucked with their beliefs otherwise. Everyone else out there making and selling things manages to do just find in spite of used sales. The gaming industry need to pull the stick from their ass and move on.

A furniture manufacturer recoups their losses with every piece of furniture sold. Reselling the furniture doesn't harm them since they've maintained their business with that first sale. A game developer, in contrast, needs as many people buying their experience as possible to effectively recoup their costs and make a decent profit. Look at the games industry today: any major title that doesn't make umpteen-million dollars is scrapped. Games become less daring, and we end up with nothing but CoD clones because the margin of error is so small that no one wants to take risks.

Scratches on the DVD? Don't be silly. Game companies aren't selling DVDs, they are selling gaming experiences. You experience is unchanged no matter how dirty the DVD looks. As long as it plays, you are enjoying the product of a team of hard-working developers without actually providing them any sort of compensation.

And please stop using the word "****" to describe the people who are working their asses off to sustain our favorite form of entertainment.

 

[Raddra]

And lastly, the used games industry has existed as long as the games industry has and yet its grown into one of the biggest industries in the world in spite of this, with pure profits totaling in the billions.

I'm starting to wonder if some of the people arguing against it are being paid to post on forums to try and sway opinion. After all they're arguing against their own rights to sell property they paid for.

Yes, that does happen.

 

[Xanthious]

Wrong. Every argument you just made for used software I could make for a used book a used DVD/Blu Ray or used CD. A used book/movie/CD is essentially identical to a new one in every way that matters. Hell used books have existed for centuries and books have managed to persevere just fine. Just imagine if the book industry was filled with as many whiny cunts as the game industry they'd have been crying foul for centuries.

Furthermore, your claim used games are "identical" to new copies is a false one as well. Ya ever buy a used game? Ya ever look at the disc and notice scratches? Yeah that's wear and tear. Ya ever get a used game without the original case and book? Again another example of a used copy being inferior to a new copy. Can you find used copies that are as good as new? Of course but you can do that for anything ranging from furniture to books.

The bottom line is that games are NOT special. They don't deserve special treatment when it comes to the used market. The cunts in the gaming industry can go get fucked with their beliefs otherwise. Everyone else out there making and selling things manages to do just find in spite of used sales. The gaming industry need to pull the stick from their ass and move on.

A furniture manufacturer recoups their losses with every piece of furniture sold. Reselling the furniture doesn't harm them since they've maintained their business with that first sale. A game developer, in contrast, needs as many people buying their experience as possible to effectively recoup their costs and make a decent profit. Look at the games industry today: any major title that doesn't make umpteen-million dollars is scrapped. Games become less daring, and we end up with nothing but CoD clones because the margin of error is so small that no one wants to take risks.

Scratches on the DVD? Don't be silly. Game companies aren't selling DVDs, they are selling gaming experiences. You experience is unchanged no matter how dirty the DVD looks. As long as it plays, you are enjoying the product of a team of hard-working developers without actually providing them any sort of compensation.

And please stop using the word "****" to describe the people who are working their asses off to sustain our favorite form of entertainment.

First, I see no reason that just because the gaming industry is incapable of managing their expenses they should be given special protection from used sales. That's their problem and shouldn't swell over to the consumer. If they are spending too much making games to make an acceptable profit then they need to fucking spend less. It's not hard to figure out.

Second, just because the wear and tear doesn't degrade the gaming experience doesn't mean it is nonexistent. I know people who buy new because they want a pristine case and manual. To those people having a scuffed case and a ripped manual means the product is inferior to a new copy. The fact that the gaming experience is unchanged has fuck all to do with there being no wear and tear on the physical product. Used media suffers from wear and tear the same as anything else.

As for the people making it being compensated. Well they were compensated when the original purchaser bought it. They don't deserve to be paid multiple times over for the same product. Once they sell a game to someone it is no longer theirs. The fact that they aren't recouping enough of the costs with new sales is meaningless to the consumer. Their flawed business model means shit to me.

Finally I will absolutely keep calling the whiny little cunts in the gaming industry just that as the amount of absolute and total disdain I have for the industry is fucking immeasurable. If there was a button I could push to magically throw every last one of them on the street fighting over scraps of discarded food like stray fucking animals I would press it like I was on Jeopardy and knew all the answers.

The gaming industry is filled with the most whiny and entitled lot of ass clowns I have ever seen. Every fucking day they find something new that's "killing the industry" and using it as an excuse to fuck over the paying customer that much more all while posting record sales and profits. Fuck every last one of em top to bottom.

 

[Gunner 51]

Given that the high asking price is justified by the abillity to recoup part of that expense through trade ins,

It fucking is not! The so caled high asking price is the one that hasn't been affected by inflation since videogames were first sold in the mid fucking eighties. If it were a fair price, it would be adjust for inflation to $121, without any ability to resell.

...what planet do you live on?

I'll first say I'm English, so can only speak for the prices here

but in the past 10 years, I have seen games rise from £30. To £35. Then £40. They stayed there for a while. Then £45. Now the average RRP is £50, with some titles asking for £55 (I'm looking at you MW3). Last I checked, rising by 66% in a decade is not staying the same price for 3.

I remember those halcyon days, sir. Back then Developers didn't moan about second hand sales at all.

The main guilty party in all this is the publishers, they want massive returns on their investments and screw the developers out of money they should have been getting and or are entitled to. Trying to recoup their losses, the devs screw us by releasing bad quality or buggy games or games with chunks missing.

As far as I'm concerned, when I buy something - it becomes my own personal property. If I decide to sell it on for whatever reason, I am well within my rights to do so. It is and would be completely immoral for the publishers or developers to come over demanding a cut of the proceeds, the only companies that do this are organised crime syndicates such as the Mafia.

All this is avoidable if the publishers simply stopped screwing the developer. If this happened, the developers would make full and complete games, they wouldn't be so buggy and would be a lot more fun to play - and as such, will be more likely to be kept around.

 

[searanox]

"Obsidian" "hates" the used games market? Sensationalist reporting much?

This is the individual opinion of a single person at Obsidian, not Obsidian's official line on piracy. But hey, I guess you get more hits of you bend the truth and completely distort the context and veracity of the statement, right? Why the hell even cite sources if you are basically just going to make shit up?

G A M E S J O U R N A L I S M

And you wonder why the videogames industry is spat upon by most others. Well done, Escapist.