Oh hey, MovieBob got fired (Or let go)

[Seanchaidh]

he praised it because of its political agenda.

i don't know, i don't think "we need to turn the page on the Jedi Order" is really all that relevant to current politics unless you're reaaaally reaching.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

i don't know, i don't think "we need to turn the page on the Jedi Order" is really all that relevant to current politics unless you're reaaaally reaching.

We are talking about Moviebob here.

 

[Adam Jensen]

I may not like Moviebob, but he's allowed nor is he not wrong for liking the new SW films. I thought TLJ was a B and I still stand by that. I admit, the casino scene went nowhere and was pointless. If it was not for that, it would be a bit higher. Force Awakens is a B-, and Rise of Skywalker is just a C. After RoS, my interests in SW immediately deflated, but I was never super fan to begin with. More of a casual watcher. Besides, if I need any space and laser sword action, I got options for days.

It's not just about the dumb scenes. Most of the criticism I have is about the characters and how terribly they were written. Not just the new ones, like Finn who's character arc from the Force Awakens has been erased, or Rey who's become a full Mary Sue, or Poe who wasn't even allowed to be 10% of the guy that he was in The Force Awakens. I'm not even gonna get into Rose or Admiral Holdo. All I'm gonna say is What.The.Actual.Fuck? Structure of the story is an entirely separate topic that still gives me headaches. Needless to say, nobody's ever gonna think of TLJ as they do ROtJ, despite what MovieBob thinks.

Anyway, what truly killed that movie is the fundamental lack of understanding and lack of respect for the original trilogy characters. Luke's character was fuckin' massacred in the movie for no reason. The way that Luke was written should have been enough for any half-decent critic to tell Ryan Johnson and Kathleen Kennedy to go drown in a fuckin' lake. If you have to change an established character in order to fit him into your idea of a story, you are a shit writer and your story is shit.

The remarkable thing about the situation with TLJ is that the problems that I have with it fall under "writing 101", and Ryan Johnson is lightyears away from being a bad writer. I've seen his other films and I know that he knows what he's doing. So either somebody else tampered with the script and the direction of the movie, and Ryan Johnson didn't have the creative freedom that we were led to believe, or Ryan Johnson did it on purpose because he hates Star Wars.

 

[BrawlMan]

It's not just about the dumb scenes. Most of the criticism I have is about the characters and how terribly they were written. Not just the new ones, like Finn who's character arc from the Force Awakens has been erased, or Rey who's become a full Mary Sue, or Poe who wasn't even allowed to be 10% of the guy that he was in The Force Awakens. I'm not even gonna get into Rose or Admiral Holdo. All I'm gonna say is What.The.Actual.Fuck? Structure of the story is an entirely separate topic that still gives me headaches. Needless to say, nobody's ever gonna think of TLJ as they do ROtJ, despite what MovieBob thinks.

Anyway, what truly killed that movie is the fundamental lack of understanding and lack of respect for the original trilogy characters. Luke's character was fuckin' massacred in the movie for no reason. The way that Luke was written should have been enough for any half-decent critic to tell Ryan Johnson and Kathleen Kennedy to go drown in a fuckin' lake. If you have to change an established character in order to fit him into your idea of a story, you are a shit writer and your story is shit.

The remarkable thing about the situation with TLJ is that the problems that I have with it fall under "writing 101", and Ryan Johnson is lightyears away from being a bad writer. I've seen his other films and I know that he knows what he's doing. So either somebody else tampered with the script and the direction of the movie, and Ryan Johnson didn't have the creative freedom that we were led to believe, or Ryan Johnson did it on purpose because he hates Star Wars.

Okay then. Whatever works for you. I personally don't care whether some likes TLJ or not a long while back. As you long as you don't act like a condescending jack ass about it. Is all that matter to me. Too bad many content creators on YouTube, film critics did not take to heart, or hardcore fans did not take to heart.

 

[Gordon_4]

It's not just about the dumb scenes. Most of the criticism I have is about the characters and how terribly they were written. Not just the new ones, like Finn who's character arc from the Force Awakens has been erased, or Rey who's become a full Mary Sue, or Poe who wasn't even allowed to be 10% of the guy that he was in The Force Awakens. I'm not even gonna get into Rose or Admiral Holdo. All I'm gonna say is What.The.Actual.Fuck? Structure of the story is an entirely separate topic that still gives me headaches. Needless to say, nobody's ever gonna think of TLJ as they do ROtJ, despite what MovieBob thinks.

Anyway, what truly killed that movie is the fundamental lack of understanding and lack of respect for the original trilogy characters. Luke's character was fuckin' massacred in the movie for no reason. The way that Luke was written should have been enough for any half-decent critic to tell Ryan Johnson and Kathleen Kennedy to go drown in a fuckin' lake. If you have to change an established character in order to fit him into your idea of a story, you are a shit writer and your story is shit.

The remarkable thing about the situation with TLJ is that the problems that I have with it fall under "writing 101", and Ryan Johnson is lightyears away from being a bad writer. I've seen his other films and I know that he knows what he's doing. So either somebody else tampered with the script and the direction of the movie, and Ryan Johnson didn't have the creative freedom that we were led to believe, or Ryan Johnson did it on purpose because he hates Star Wars.

Luke didn’t seem terribly much out of character to me. The decision making process he went through seems consistent with the Skywalker family making decisions in the heat of the moment that have terrible consequences for thousands of millions of people. Luke was never trained fully as a Jedi; he spent a few hours with Obi-Wan on the Falcon and charitably, what, maybe a week on Dagonah with Yoda? He has more experience and time in country as an insurgent soldier and pilot than he does a warrior monk. He fucked up and coped poorly; big deal.

 

[Bedinsis]

Anyway, what truly killed that movie is the fundamental lack of understanding and lack of respect for the original trilogy characters. Luke's character was fuckin' massacred in the movie for no reason. The way that Luke was written should have been enough for any half-decent critic to tell Ryan Johnson and Kathleen Kennedy to go drown in a fuckin' lake. If you have to change an established character in order to fit him into your idea of a story, you are a shit writer and your story is shit.

What change to Luke would that be?

 

[Dalisclock]

What change to Luke would that be?

Becoming old and cynical/bitter and going into self imposed exile in the ass end of nowhere after a crushing failure?

Which ironically isn't that different from Yoda and Obi-wan.

 

[Buyetyen]

Anyway, what truly killed that movie is the fundamental lack of understanding and lack of respect for the original trilogy characters. Luke's character was fuckin' massacred in the movie for no reason. The way that Luke was written should have been enough for any half-decent critic to tell Ryan Johnson and Kathleen Kennedy to go drown in a fuckin' lake. If you have to change an established character in order to fit him into your idea of a story, you are a shit writer and your story is shit.

Okay, I take it back. Arrogant teenage me never actually wished literal death upon people who made movies I didn't like.

 

[Bedinsis]

Becoming old and cynical/bitter and going into self imposed exile in the ass end of nowhere after a crushing failure?

Which ironically isn't that different from Yoda and Obi-wan.

I know that plenty of people found that disappointing and that it fits the pattern of ex-Jedis.

I still want to know what Adam Jensen has to say.

 

[Breakdown]

Becoming old and cynical/bitter and going into self imposed exile in the ass end of nowhere after a crushing failure?

Which ironically isn't that different from Yoda and Obi-wan.

Luke's situation is fundamentally different.

Kenobi was on Tatooine to keep an eye on Luke, protect him if necessary, and eventually train him. Kenobi also responded to Leia's request for help immediately. Yoda wasn't actively doing much on Dagobah, but he did seem at peace with himself.

Luke by contrast was a broken, bitter failure.

 

[Adam Jensen]

Okay, I take it back. Arrogant teenage me never actually wished literal death upon people who made movies I didn't like.

Lighten up. It wasn't a death wish.

Becoming old and cynical/bitter and going into self imposed exile in the ass end of nowhere after a crushing failure?

Which ironically isn't that different from Yoda and Obi-wan.

But Luke is different from Yoda and Obi-wan. You can't compare character choices based on their profession. You compare them based on who they are as characters.

The reason behind what happened to Luke is bullshit. There's no reason to make Luke cynical other than the fact that the dumb story needed him to be cynical. Luke has never been the kind of character who would ever ponder murdering a child in his sleep, for fuck sake. I honestly fail to see how anyone could not see a problem with this. Luke Skywalker has always been the beacon of idealism. He is the character that perseveres and ultimately chooses the right thing. His character arc was complete when he chose not to kill Vader and not to turn to the dark side. He was willing to die to save his friends and his evil father. The idea that he would go through a similar struggle in his old age, and for such a contrived reason, defies the entirety of his character arc from the original trilogy and disrespects his character on a fundamental level. And for what?

Even if we could believe that he'd be capable of pondering to kill Kylo Ren for no real reason, who would believe that his failure would lead him to become a cynical, old shut-in, instead of being the guy leading the resistance and trying desperately to turn Kylo Ren back to the light? Because that's who he is as a character. Or at least, who he's supposed to be. I could buy into the idea of him leaving, if the reason behind it made sense. If, for example, he chose to go the first Jedi temple to actually read the original Jedi texts in the hope of finding a way to save Kylo Ren from falling further to the dark side. This still doesn't fix the fact that he'd never ponder murdering him, though.

Apparently, being a goody-two-shoes and smart is no longer a viable characteristic for a guy like Luke. Besides, there's no room for two idealistic characters, and we wouldn't want an old character such as Luke to overshadow our new hero, would we?

And that's most likely the reason why they massacred our boy. Disney didn't want the old characters to overshadow the new ones, but they still needed them for the nostalgia factor. So instead of finding a smart way to use them in the new trilogy, they chose the cheaper path that didn't require a lot of brain cells rubbing together to actually create something resembling coherent and consistent character development.

 

[Buyetyen]

Lighten up. It wasn't a death wish.

It's juvenile. You're trying way too hard.

 

[Gordon_4]

Lighten up. It wasn't a death wish.


But Luke is different from Yoda and Obi-wan. You can't compare character choices based on their profession. You compare them based on who they are as characters.

The reason behind what happened to Luke is bullshit. There's no reason to make Luke cynical other than the fact that the dumb story needed him to be cynical. Luke has never been the kind of character who would ever ponder murdering a child in his sleep, for fuck sake. I honestly fail to see how anyone could not see a problem with this. Luke Skywalker has always been the beacon of idealism. He is the character that perseveres and ultimately chooses the right thing. His character arc was complete when he chose not to kill Vader and not to turn to the dark side. He was willing to die to save his friends and his evil father. The idea that he would go through a similar struggle in his old age, and for such a contrived reason, defies the entirety of his character arc from the original trilogy and disrespects his character on a fundamental level. And for what?

Even if we could believe that he'd be capable of pondering to kill Kylo Ren for no real reason, who would believe that his failure would lead him to become a cynical, old shut-in, instead of being the guy leading the resistance and trying desperately to turn Kylo Ren back to the light? Because that's who he is as a character. Or at least, who he's supposed to be. I could buy into the idea of him leaving, if the reason behind it made sense. If, for example, he chose to go the first Jedi temple to actually read the original Jedi texts in the hope of finding a way to save Kylo Ren from falling further to the dark side. This still doesn't fix the fact that he'd never ponder murdering him, though.

Apparently, being a goody-two-shoes and smart is no longer a viable characteristic for a guy like Luke. Besides, there's no room for two idealistic characters, and we wouldn't want an old character such as Luke to overshadow our new hero, would we?

And that's most likely the reason why they massacred our boy. Disney didn't want the old characters to overshadow the new ones, but they still needed them for the nostalgia factor. So instead of finding a smart way to use them in the new trilogy, they chose the cheaper path that didn't require a lot of brain cells rubbing together to actually create something resembling coherent and consistent character development.

Luke developed as a character; he just developed in a way you didn’t like.

 

[Adam Jensen]

Luke developed as a character; he just developed in a way you didn’t like.

Oh, pardon me. I didn't realize that he just developed in a way I didn't like. Using this logic, you could do with any character whatever you wanted and no one could criticize your writing because you could always shrug it off with "[insert character] developed in a way you didn't like". I can't even call this intellectually dishonest, because I'd be making a mistake of implying that you were using intelligence to concoct this excuse.

Believe it or not, there are rules when it comes to writing characters. There is a good way of doing it and a bad way of doing it. This also means that there is such a thing as objectively good and objectively bad writing. There are many problems that I have with TLJ that are almost entirely personal. None of what I mentioned about the movie so far falls into that category. Least of all the problems with Luke's character.

And by the way, I am in no way some kind of disappointed Star Wars fan. I recognize the cinematic importance of the original trilogy, but aside from thinking that lightsabers are the coolest weapons ever invented, I don't give two shits about the franchise as a whole. But I care about good characters and good writing.

 

[Gordon_4]

Oh, pardon me. I didn't realize that he just developed in a way I didn't like. Using this logic, you could do with any character whatever you wanted and no one could criticize your writing because you could always shrug it off with "[insert character] developed in a way you didn't like". I can't even call this intellectually dishonest, because I'd be making a mistake of implying that you were using intelligence to concoct this excuse.

Believe it or not, there are rules when it comes to writing characters. There is a good way of doing it and a bad way of doing it. This also means that there is such a thing as objectively good and objectively bad writing. There are many problems that I have with TLJ that are almost entirely personal. None of what I mentioned about the movie so far falls into that category. Least of all the problems with Luke's character.

And by the way, I am in no way some kind of disappointed Star Wars fan. I recognize the cinematic importance of the original trilogy, but aside from thinking that lightsabers are the coolest weapons ever invented, I don't give two shits about the franchise as a whole. But I care about good characters and good writing.

For a not disappointed fan this appears to be causing you a lot of angst.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Yeah, not seeing any reason why Luke couldn't change in the decades we didn't see him.

The way he was depicted was very bad, yes, but having him be a broken old man wasn't inherently a terrible idea, IMHO.

 

[Dalisclock]

And that's most likely the reason why they massacred our boy. Disney didn't want the old characters to overshadow the new ones, but they still needed them for the nostalgia factor. So instead of finding a smart way to use them in the new trilogy, they chose the cheaper path that didn't require a lot of brain cells rubbing together to actually create something resembling coherent and consistent character development.

I'm not really a fan of Disney's trilogy and honestly that not that big a fan of Bitter/Crabby Luke, but considering the entire Premise of the New Trilogy is that everything went to shit between ROTJ and TFA because the New Republic is not only complacent, but also incredibly stupid and the First Order somehow has access to UNLIMITED RESOURCES and ALSO PALPATINE SOMEHOW SURVIVED FALLING DOWN THE SHAFT ON THE EXPLODING DEATH STAR, Old Bitter Luke feels appropriate to that crapsack, stupid universe.

I'd honestly have preferred they took a different tack to the whole thing and not make it stupid all the way down, but of all the ways the new trilogy done fucked up, Old Bitter Luke feels like a minor sin compared to the FIrst Order pulling new tech and giant space fleets out of their ass every 5 seconds(and everything else).

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

I grew up being told that you shouldn't post anything on the internet you wouldn't be comfortable with your employer seeing. It seems along the way that bit of advice has been lost. Lol.

Definitely some really good advice. I've seen more than a couple of people lose out on job opportunities due to their prospective employer finding their twitter or facebook posts.

 

[CM156]

Definitely some really good advice. I've seen more than a couple of people lose out on job opportunities due to their prospective employer finding their twitter or facebook posts.

That's the advice I got from my employer, too.
Along with "Don't send anything in an email that would make us look bad if it ended up on Wikileaks"
So I try to make my emails as bland as possible.

 

[Dalisclock]

That's the advice I got from my employer, too.
Along with "Don't send anything in an email that would make us look bad if it ended up on Wikileaks"
So I try to make my emails as bland as possible.

From a work or personal account?

Still good advice regardless. If it's at work and it's in any way recorded, keep it professional and assumed everything is being archived.