Okay.... Star Trek:TNG is racist and sexist....

[latiasracer]

Come to think of it, Star Trek is pretty racist. All of the leaders, officers and academics are white, who in turn are served by the token black muscle brute in Worf, Space Stevie Wonder in Engineering (oh, just because he's blind means he has to be black too) and Whoopi Goldberg, who is cast as an alien, but is basically a subservient house servant, getting drinks for all the white masters and being at their beck and call.
You can make anything racist if you try hard enough, but you're probably right, we should ban this sick filth.

"y u forget me?"

Back on topic, I think this is looking a little to far into it. I've seen this episode several times on my many watches of TNG, And i've never thought "ERMAHGERD RACIST" (Although i did forget about the poor neck-snapped bloke!)

 

[seditary]

Come to think of it, Star Trek is pretty racist. All of the leaders, officers and academics are white, who in turn are served by the token black muscle brute in Worf, Space Stevie Wonder in Engineering (oh, just because he's blind means he has to be black too) and Whoopi Goldberg, who is cast as an alien, but is basically a subservient house servant, getting drinks for all the white masters and being at their beck and call.
You can make anything racist if you try hard enough, but you're probably right, we should ban this sick filth.

"y u forget me?"

Back on topic, I think this is looking a little to far into it. I've seen this episode several times on my many watches of TNG, And i've never thought "ERMAHGERD RACIST" (Although i did forget about the poor neck-snapped bloke!)

Never forget the Sisko.

But he does punch of a lot of people. Someone could very easily twist his character to be racist if they tried.

 

[Not G. Ivingname]

I'm sorry, and someone probably can prove me wrong, but I'm sitting here watching "Genesis" from Season 7

all of the crew have basically de-evolved back to their primal states.... and of course that means it's made Worf into an animalistic brute intent on raping Troi.

Now look, yeah Worf is a klingon but for fucks sakes, I'd be a moron to not see the racial subtext there either intentionally or unintentionally. (Though a thought occurs, since everyone on the enterprise was basically an animal with no sentience... can an animal rape another animal?)

Worst of all? At the end of the episode where things magically go back to normal... What's Troi's response? After all its made pretty clear she was already raped presumably once by Worf... Apathy and joke that she should clear her calender for a while. Credits.

I'm sorry what?!?! Okay fine, maybe she doesn't remember being raped by worf, but clearly Crusher/Picard/Data must've told her what the fuck happened to her and she doesn't feel the least bit violated?

1. It was one episode. One really, REALLY stupid episode. "Yes, we are devolving into creatures we only share a common ancestor for that lived HUNDREDS of MILLIONS years ago." Do not take this episode to judge the whole series.

2. All the talk of honor, the Klingon's are more about just plain VIOLENCE. We see this time and again. To quote DS9, "Nothing is more honorable than victory". So evolving from an animalistic Brute isn't that much of a stretch. Two also had some established chemistry before the episode, so it seems more of "how Worf feels without self control." Maybe, again, the writing in this episode was beyond brain dead.

3. Troi already was already just a piece of eye candy, look at her uniform before season 6. Also, for both a therapist and an empath, she couldn't spot anything besides the extremely obvious.

"SURRENDER YOUR SHIP AND PREPARED TO BE PILLAGED!
"I sense great anger from their captain..."

4. You want to see a REALLY racist episode? Look up "Code of Honor." The leader of a species of black people (who all dressed in cougar skin pants) suddenly falls madly in love with Natasha Yar ("Where da white women at?") and tries to claim her. At one FanExpo ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4w0Zj_EdT4 ), Riker's actor called the episode a "Racist piece of shit."

 

[Snotnarok]

The entire show is racist based on a single view on a strange complex event in a sci-fi show with a time limit to communicate a story in a self contained episode?
Things wrap up neatly but who's to say how much time has passed and how much they remember and just how much they've been affected. I mean we're talking brains are altered, screw the one view on how things CAN be viewed, how does anyone remember anything when their brains have been altered? I mean Riker it was stated his skull size was increased and you can see his brain functionality diminishing in the episiode. How is he functioning at all? Do they have advanced brain replication and replacement that includes previous memories? See that's just scientifically impossible there that's what's really offensive, there's no two ways to look at that sorta thing.

In all seriousness: the first line sums it up, there's many ways to view it and the show has to wrap up in a 45min time limit and 2-parters are a rarity in that time period for reasons so not everything can be explicitly dwelled on. I mean think about it, in the 90's the only 2 ways to really know when a show was on was a paper TV guide and the TV telling you to tune in next week, so shows were usually designed to have a self contained story per episode so viewers can tune in without being alienated.

 

[nacthenud]

The only thing racist here is the OP that invalidates the storyline simply because the actor is black. Worf is not black. He's Klingon. Klingons evolving from more violent creatures than humans makes every kind of sense. Making this anything to do with the race of the actors is offensive.

 

[blackrave]

To be a human, is to be capable if horrible actions
And if we portrait black character as just a human being, that means that potential of doing horrible things must be present (and sometimes shown)
But showing black character doing horrible things is somehow unacceptable
But that implies that black characters aren't humans, because to be a human, is to be capable if horrible actions
But if we portrait black character as just a human being, that means that potential of doing horrible things must be present (and sometimes shown)
But showing black character doing horrible things is somehow unacceptable
But that implies that black characters aren't humans, because to be a human, is to be capable if horrible actions
But if we portrait black character as just a human being, that means that potential of doing horrible things must be present (and sometimes shown)
But showing black character doing horrible things is somehow unacceptable
But that implies that black characters aren't humans, because to be a human, is to be capable if horrible actions
But if we portrait black character as just a human being, that means that potential of doing horrible things must be present (and sometimes shown)
But showing black character doing horrible things is somehow unacceptable
But that implies that black characters aren't humans, because to be a human, is to be capable if horrible actions
But if we portrait black character as just a human being, that means that potential of doing horrible things must be present (and sometimes shown)
But showing black character doing horrible things is somehow unacceptable
But that implies that black characters aren't humans, because to be a human, is to be capable if horrible actions
But if we portrait black character as just a human being, that means that potential of doing horrible things must be present (and sometimes shown)
But showing black character doing horrible things is somehow unacceptable
But that implies that black characters aren't humans, because to be a human, is to be capable if horrible actions
But if we portrait black character as just a human being, that means that potential of doing horrible things must be present (and sometimes shown)
But showing black character doing horrible things is somehow unacceptable
But that implies that black characters aren't humans, because to be a human, is to be capable if horrible actions
But if we portrait black character as just a human being, that means that potential of doing horrible things must be present (and sometimes shown)
But showing black character doing horrible things is somehow unacceptable
.
.
.
Well fuck, you just broke my positronic brain
Now all I'll have to rely on is my stupid organic brain.
THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!!

P.S. And as many people stated before me, character in question wasn't african, he was Klingon (who was just portrayed by black person).

 

[JazzJack2]

Jesus christ this is beyond satire, it just goes to show you that people really will find any reason to call something offensive.

 

[Lieju]

Unless... had they hooked up before this episode took place, at which point my whole argument would become mute, kinda.

Weren't they a couple? Or weren't they a couple yet at that point?
They did date in the series.

TNG has racism and sexism (like the whole episode of the African savage planet), but I don't think Genesis was the biggest offender.

I was more offended at their idea of evolution in that episode, to be honest...

You can make anything racist if you try hard enough, but you're probably right, we should ban this sick filth.

Where did he say he wanted it banned? Can't we criticise anything anymore?

 

[Kinitawowi]

Also in an early TNG Tasha Yar was...inebriated somehow, banged Data and it was never brought up again.

I think that one actually did come up again. In the episode (or pair of episodes) when they were doing the Data-is-a-being/Data-is-equipment trial he pulls out an image of her and talks about keeping it because they were "intimate". I think it might have come up another time or two as well, but as I said upthread, it's been ages since I watched the series so that's the only time I remember.

The other instance that comes to mind is Tasha's funeral, where her message went something like "Data... it did happen". It being obvious to the crew from context.

hardly suprising worf was like that.. hell any time they go into klingon mating on the show there are lots of bruises and biting. hell klingons headbutt as a greeting

And they roar. And claw...

 

[DudeistBelieve]

Wouldn't it be more racist to specifically avoid such a storyline because the actor playing Worf is black?

Also, if Star Trek is racist, then wouldn't that mean Saints Row is racist too? Michael Dorn played Maero in that series, who wasn't just an a strong brute, but also a criminal.

What would have happened if Michael Dorn got turned down for the part of Maero because he's black?

Mass Effect 2 was probably racist too, as they typecast Michael Dorn as Gatatog Uvenk, another warlike brute who no doubt would have been raping all the women given half a chance.

What about Stargate? That series cast both Christopher Judge and Isaac Hayes as big strong warlike brutes. Was were the writers of Stargate being racist because you could draw parallels between the black Jaffa and the stereotypes of the 'Savage Zulu' and 'Enslaved Negro'. Should they have just made all of the Jaffa white to avoid being racist?

It seems to me that specifically denying actors employment and certain roles in works of fantasy and science fiction, based on their skin colour, is pretty wrong.

Anyway, going back to that episode of Star Trek TNG. Why are you solely focusing on the racism against Michael Dorn and black people. What about the fact that Patrick Stewart, who played a Frenchman, devolved into a cowardly monkey? It was just one step away from having \him each cheese and wave a white flag.

Come to think of it, Star Trek is pretty racist. All of the leaders, officers and academics are white, who in turn are served by the token black muscle brute in Worf, Space Stevie Wonder in Engineering (oh, just because he's blind means he has to be black too) and Whoopi Goldberg, who is cast as an alien, but is basically a subservient house servant, getting drinks for all the white masters and being at their beck and call.

You can make anything racist if you try hard enough, but you're probably right, we should ban this sick filth.

I already brought up the problem up thread.

In WWWE theres no fundamental difference between what Mark Henry does and what Brock Lesnar does. Just that one is black (Mark) and the other white (Lesnar), but because Henry is black it does give his character racial subtext. This isn't the problem of the performer, the problem is that we as a society created a shit ton sterotypes, and we keep repeating them.

And ya know what? It doesn't mean the episode should be banned or that Mark Henry shouldn't be allowed to wrestle. But what does matter is us spotting the subtext when we see it.

The only thing racist here is the OP that invalidates the storyline simply because the actor is black. Worf is not black. He's Klingon. Klingons evolving from more violent creatures than humans makes every kind of sense. Making this anything to do with the race of the actors is offensive.

I didn't invalidate the storyline. I said it had racial subtext. and for fucks sake, I got a name sir.

I'm sorry, and someone probably can prove me wrong, but I'm sitting here watching "Genesis" from Season 7

all of the crew have basically de-evolved back to their primal states.... and of course that means it's made Worf into an animalistic brute intent on raping Troi.

Now look, yeah Worf is a klingon but for fucks sakes, I'd be a moron to not see the racial subtext there either intentionally or unintentionally. (Though a thought occurs, since everyone on the enterprise was basically an animal with no sentience... can an animal rape another animal?)

Worst of all? At the end of the episode where things magically go back to normal... What's Troi's response? After all its made pretty clear she was already raped presumably once by Worf... Apathy and joke that she should clear her calender for a while. Credits.

I'm sorry what?!?! Okay fine, maybe she doesn't remember being raped by worf, but clearly Crusher/Picard/Data must've told her what the fuck happened to her and she doesn't feel the least bit violated?

1. It was one episode. One really, REALLY stupid episode. "Yes, we are devolving into creatures we only share a common ancestor for that lived HUNDREDS of MILLIONS years ago." Do not take this episode to judge the whole series.

2. All the talk of honor, the Klingon's are more about just plain VIOLENCE. We see this time and again. To quote DS9, "Nothing is more honorable than victory". So evolving from an animalistic Brute isn't that much of a stretch. Two also had some established chemistry before the episode, so it seems more of "how Worf feels without self control." Maybe, again, the writing in this episode was beyond brain dead.

3. Troi already was already just a piece of eye candy, look at her uniform before season 6. Also, for both a therapist and an empath, she couldn't spot anything besides the extremely obvious.

"SURRENDER YOUR SHIP AND PREPARED TO BE PILLAGED!
"I sense great anger from their captain..."

4. You want to see a REALLY racist episode? Look up "Code of Honor." The leader of a species of black people (who all dressed in cougar skin pants) suddenly falls madly in love with Natasha Yar ("Where da white women at?") and tries to claim her. At one FanExpo ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4w0Zj_EdT4 ), Riker's actor called the episode a "Racist piece of shit."

Yes I'm familiar with the code of honor episode, but I bring it up because I keep seeing the subtext over and over. Mind you I've stopped watch season by season, I'm just watching whatever BBC America airs.

I've seen an a intoxicated Tasha get raped by Data (Debatable, since Data can be a little niave), and she's also suppose to be this kick-butt female yet I've only ever see her get kidnapped or her ass handed to her (and I some point she dies, I haven't seen it)

and yeah it makes since that Worf acts that way in the context of the show's lore... It still doesn't change the fact it has a racial subtext... and that subtext makes me feel uncomfortable (jesus, I've become so liberal haven't I?)

I'm not writing off the whole series, I quite enjoy watching but man oh man... You know the sexism and what not routed in geek culture, and here I am seeing perpetrated in Star Trek of all things. Just wanted to make sure I'm not the only one seeing this shit.

 

[Jamash]

Come to think of it, Star Trek is pretty racist. All of the leaders, officers and academics are white, who in turn are served by the token black muscle brute in Worf, Space Stevie Wonder in Engineering (oh, just because he's blind means he has to be black too) and Whoopi Goldberg, who is cast as an alien, but is basically a subservient house servant, getting drinks for all the white masters and being at their beck and call.
You can make anything racist if you try hard enough, but you're probably right, we should ban this sick filth.

"y u forget me?"

I didn't forget Sisko... he's the most lazy racist representation of the lot.

He's obviously a stereotypical uppity Negro and Uncle Tom character, a jumped up houseboy of the Prophets (who are undoubtedly White, Heterosexual and Prophetstant).

What about that episode when Sisko gets transported back to 1920's Earth and faces racial prejudice? Kirk went back in time to 1920's Earth and never got racially abused, but as soon a black man starts time travelling, he gets shit for being black.

The mere fact that the first black Star Trek Captain is the only Captain to be picked on because of his skin colour is racist.

Doesn't Sisko also play Jazz Piano in his spare time... how typical. It wouldn't surprise me if he had a broken family life too... he's got a son, but where's his baby mama?

While were on the subject of Deep Spacist 9, doesn't that also feature Worf. But where's Troi? Where's K'Ehleyr, Worf's baby mama? They're nowhere to be seen because Work is just embodying the racist stereotype of the unfaithful black man, who's got bored with his baby mama, got bored with Troi and is now at it with Dax.

Of course I'm only making these points in jest, but I wouldn't be surprise if somewhere on the Internet, there's an angry blog that's making these points for real.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

Come to think of it, Star Trek is pretty racist. All of the leaders, officers and academics are white, who in turn are served by the token black muscle brute in Worf, Space Stevie Wonder in Engineering (oh, just because he's blind means he has to be black too) and Whoopi Goldberg, who is cast as an alien, but is basically a subservient house servant, getting drinks for all the white masters and being at their beck and call.
You can make anything racist if you try hard enough, but you're probably right, we should ban this sick filth.

"y u forget me?"

I didn't forget Sisko... he's the most lazy racist representation of the lot.

He's obviously a stereotypical uppity Negro and Uncle Tom character, a jumped up houseboy of the Prophets (who are undoubtedly White, Heterosexual and Prophestant).

What about that episode when Sisko gets transported back to 1920's Earth and faces racial prejudice? Kirk went back in time to 1920's Earth and never got racially abused, but as soon a black man starts time travelling, he gets shit for being black.

The mere fact that the first black Star Trek Captain is the only Captain to be picked on because of his skin colour is racist.

Doesn't Sisko also play Jazz Piano in his spare time... how typical. It wouldn't surprise me if he had a broken family life too... he's got a son, but where's his baby mama?

While were on the subject of Deep Spacist 9, doesn't that also feature Worf. But where's Troi? Where's K'Ehleyr, Worf's baby mama? They're nowhere to be seen because Work is just embodying the racist stereotype of the unfaithful black man, who's got bored with his baby mama, got bored with Troi and is now at it with Dax.

Of course I'm only making these points in jest, but I wouldn't be surprise if somewhere on the Internet, there's an angry blog that's making these points for real.

Ill admit, the one about Worf abandoning his Baby Mama's made me laugh...

 

[senordesol]

Yes I'm familiar with the code of honor episode, but I bring it up because I keep seeing the subtext over and over. Mind you I've stopped watch season by season, I'm just watching whatever BBC America airs.

I've seen an a intoxicated Tasha get raped by Data (Debatable, since Data can be a little niave), and she's also suppose to be this kick-butt female yet I've only ever see her get kidnapped or her ass handed to her (and I some point she dies, I haven't seen it)

and yeah it makes since that Worf acts that way in the context of the show's lore... It still doesn't change the fact it has a racial subtext... and that subtext makes me feel uncomfortable (jesus, I've become so liberal haven't I?)

I'm not writing off the whole series, I quite enjoy watching but man oh man... You know the sexism and what not routed in geek culture, and here I am seeing perpetrated in Star Trek of all things. Just wanted to make sure I'm not the only one seeing this shit.

My kneejerk response to that would be referencing the clip from robot chicken wherein a character says 'What? Every black man on TV gots to be a positive role model?'

But you've clearly put some thought into this and you deserve a more measured response. For me, when I want to determine if something is 'racist', I usually ask myself the following question. Is this occurring while a character *happens* to be 'x'? Or is this happening *because* a character is 'x'? In this fashion, I do not hold that the repetition of a particular trope to equal the perpetuation of a particular stereotype.

If Worf was a one-episode character who's only defining character trait was a sexual assault; I think you might have some ground to stand on here, but he's not and it isn't. Worf is as well-defined and rounded as any of the other cast of TNG; and a character whose motivations, internal conflicts, history, and personality are deeply explored does not really bear out as a 'racist caricature' even if, at some point, he does something *once* that may be in line with a particular stereotype. You'd have more traction with portraying Worf as the deadbeat dad stereotype than the 'animal rapist' stereotype.

Then, of course, you've got the other black characters in the canon: Uhura, LaForge, Tuvok, Sisko; all as nuanced, heroic, and vulnerable to the whimsy of whatever interstellar phenomena/starbeast they happen to run across. Hell, Star Trek even goes out of its way to portray nuances in members of the same species. On Voyager, two vulcans undergo the Pon Farr (sp?); one -the white one- basically becomes an attempted rapist, while Tuvok just locks himself in the holodeck with a recreation of his wife and...you get the picture.

To say something is 'racist', I think, is to imply or suggest that the creators of the content clearly believe that one race is inferior to another by simple virtue of that person being *of* that race, regardless of personal accomplishment or esteem. That does not bear out at all in the Star Trek canon. They present a culture that might have some stereotypical parallels; but the more time they spend on a particular race or culture: the more nuanced and rounded it becomes.

 

[TheLiham]

So if any of the white crew and Worf were swapped and they raped Troi, would it still be racist?

 

[Lopende Paddo]

Worf devolved into a reptilian ancestor of a Klingon (Their form of dinosaur?), That's hardly 'Racist'. Assuming we still have some rough trace of DNA from that era (Even just back to cave-man era) We'd probably be pretty intent on spreading our seed and generally being violent.

I'm not sure i follow on how this is Racist or Sexist though...

You've got the animalistic black man raping a white woman. In the context of a zillion other depictions of blak men as animalistic rapists preying on white women, there's an issue.

Mind you, the ending was pretty funny. Crusher endangered the lives of everyone onboard, people could have been killed and she's just like "whoops lol"

People were, there was the guy on the bridge with his neck snapped.

And yeah, the Barclay spider was scary.

I'm black and i don't find it racist, its about a black Klingon (not man) and not even that but a predecessor of the Klingon race who are well established as a territorial and aggressive race. It all fits in the context of the universe it plays out in. although the whole backwards evolution thing is crappy.

 

[theNater]

Just to refresh my memory, I've skimmed a synopsis of the episode, and there are two things that jump out at me. First is a lack of any indications that Worf got further than the bite. Is there something there that I just don't remember?

Second is that while we don't actually see Geordi's transformation, the early indications are that he's not becoming more aggressive; the synopsis uses the word "lethargic". Isn't that also relevant context?

 

[Wraith]

I don't watch TNG or any actual Star Trek, shows, but from what I know of Klingons due to picking up information over the years, I can say that I never once assumed that they were the representation of black people. Like others pointed out, they were portrayed by white actors (mostly) as the on again-off again villains from a tough environment. Just because their skin is dark doesn't mean they represent POC.

Off-Topic: I am really getting tired of people being offended for me.

 

[Gorrath]

Interesting discussion that shows how different points of view can weave a really tangled web when it comes to racial politics. It becomes quite hard to determine what does and does not have racial subtext because the subtext matters to the observer and each observer will have their own take. Just in this thread we've got several complete conundrums really well illustrated.

For example: We have a race of dark skinned aliens who are violent and brutish. Now we have several choices regarding the casting for these parts.

A) We Cast only black actors for the roles. Problem? This carries really bad racial subtext, making it seem as if the dark-skinned, violent aliens are meant to be a representation of black people. So that's a non-starter.

B) We cast black and white actors to play the parts. Problem? Blackface, and you still have a subtext problem when you do have a black actor playing the role of the violent warrior/rapist/whatever.

C) We cast only white actors for the roles in order to avoid any racial subtext in regards to the actors. Problem? Blackface again, and this time you also have a problem with denying a role to someone based on their race.

D) Change the dark-skinned aliens to light-skinned aliens. Problem? White washing.

So, what's the answer to this round-about of someone taking issue no matter what you do? I don't know that there is one. I will say that sometimes these issues do seem akin to someone seeing the face of Jesus in an oil spot, or a piece of toast. If you squint really hard and cock your head to the side, you can almost see what they're talking about.

Since its inception, Star Trek has been a juggernaut of progressive ideas, from a crew that included quite a mix (for its time) of interracial characters and the first ever interracial on-screen kiss, to male crew members in miniskirts, to black and female commanders who are centrally focused, heroic and admirable while shirking stereotypes. Star Trek is not racist or sexist when taken as a whole, even if there are unfortunate episodes now and again. And how could there not be, given that you can show how any decision will lead to someone criticizing your decision as racially insensitive no matter what you choose to do?