On Dialogue Menus

[geldonyetich]

I can see Yahtzee's point here.

Sure, the player would be less capable of directing the conversation by nature of having it play out and simply hinting a direction he would like it go, but it would at least seem more realistic.

Comparatively, our Dragon Age style conversation trees are more like prodding a database which has an agenda of trying to be entertaining so it'll hold the really good information behind the right combinations (assuming such really good information exists.)

Plus, when push comes to shove, aren't we just trying to get the NPCs to unload any and all useful information they have? Might as well just have them start talking and "uh huh" our way through until they're done dumping. It might even be a whole lot quicker than having to read the responses and select them.

Here's an idea for a conversation model: instead of having the buttons correspond to attitude and I want to leave, have the buttons correspond to openings and I want to leave. When you're talking with the NPC, if you're paying attention the NPC will mention something and you can choose to prod them that thing they just mentioned in real time. It's like:

NPC: "Oh, life here at Cotsberry was all well and good, except that time a dragon ate my wife, and the other week-"
PC: "About that dragon..."
NPC: "Oh, right the dragon was a terrible firebreathing monster, ate not only my wife but half the town guard before retreating to its lair, it reminds me of a story-"
PC:" About the dragon's lair..."

And so on. Of course, you realize what we're talking about here is conversation quick time events, but hey, you did want it to seem natural.

 

[Negatempest]

LOL, that's funny dududf. Currently ALOT of gameplay is already being reduced just to make the people look pretty. Why not reduce the 3 years it takes just to show a wrinkle on a players face and maybe put it in creating a better dialogue, story, or even longer game play. Heaven forbid gamers from having a game that lasts longer than 10 hours....

 

[ark123]

Realism in in-game dialog would fuck up ANY game beyond repair. It would mean having to stay glued to the screen trying to remember really hard whether Grey Wardens are supposed to pray for Andraste or Thor in the five seconds it takes for the NPC to ask you who you worship. Thor? Quick Load. Odin? Quick load. It would mean you'd have to remember all those 9 novels worth of content off the top of your head and know it so well you'd be able to come up with answers in real time, or your F9 (quick load, for you non DA players) key would need to be exchanged after every couple hours of gameplay.
What does piss me off is that they can't get their heads out of their asses on the Generic Character Means You Identify With Protagonist principle. We know you guys can get decent actors to perform the dialog, why the fuck can't I get a british guy saying the dialog option I just chose? I would be ten times more likely to choose the often available "How about I kill you instead?" option.

 

[happysock]

I heard this mentioned by you before a while back. Although it sounds possible and would certainly make conversations more interesting, however you would probably end up having the same conversations with different people, or on another play through just have the exact conversation, but in a different order. Interesting, but definitely not all there yet.

O another thing I noticed is you said about having none static conversations, how is that possible if both analogue sticks are used up, by topic and attitude? I suppose the buttons could be used for say Press A to rummage through underwear draw, Press B to fart, press X for sarcasm etc.

 

[Odjin]

Great minds think alike. I had the very same idea as you Ben some time ago and am still preparing a system to put it to use. It's though a very difficult undertaking since dynamic dialogues sounds easier than it actually is. But nothing is impossible. I am too longing for a game where conversation is more than just pressing buttons. Something which might help and that I had in mind is to sort of "pause" the conversation. For example if you suddenly have a flash of what you want to ask you could pause the conversation to find the right topic to talk about and then continue. This would only be enabled if you need to quickly pull the topic around and otherwise you can use the real-time responses. When I get once a prototype done please be my guest for discussing it and especially improving it. Unless you are first of course

 

[ark123]

Great minds think alike. I had the very same idea as you Ben some time ago and am still preparing a system to put it to use. It's though a very difficult undertaking since dynamic dialogues sounds easier than it actually is. But nothing is impossible. I am too longing for a game where conversation is more than just pressing buttons. Something which might help and that I had in mind is to sort of "pause" the conversation. For example if you suddenly have a flash of what you want to ask you could pause the conversation to find the right topic to talk about and then continue. This would only be enabled if you need to quickly pull the topic around and otherwise you can use the real-time responses. When I get once a prototype done please be my guest for discussing it and especially improving it. Unless you are first of course

You sound incredibly lonely

 

[obliterate]

So what's tommorow's review ?

 

[ButtonedDownParadox]

That's...a pretty good idea.

Although if I may: Needs more sperm.

But seriously. You can tell that Bioware is still making additions to the Mass Effect dialogue system. Perhaps there will be something approaching that by the time we get to Mass Effect 3?

 

[AfterAscon]

I would love to know how NPCs will react to a character whose attitude switches between bored and enthusiastic every second, perhaps drawing out unique, yet scripted, character events.

As I was reading I thought you were going to go down the line of that recent Silent Hill quiz at the beginning of the game, where you fill out all the relevant stats and questions. Then throughout the Game the character automatically has the conversions in accordance with your results, removing the noticeable options of pressing 'up' to be benevolent or 'down' for committing genocide. At least with the quiz it potentially creates a seamless experience throughout.

 

[Kilo24]

The main problem with this approach is asking specific questions, like "Where is the bathroom?" You could deal with that by creating a hybrid system, though.
It also runs the hazard of forcing words into your character's mouth that you don't think they'd say (something you can prevent to at least a degree in a dialogue tree by seeing responses before you select them.)
I would say, though, that the biggest problem with dialogue trees is not the system itself, but rather the quality of the dialogue. It's something you'd run into with your system as well. You'd still need somebody writing and voicing each individual line. I doubt that the payoff would be worth it, unless you had a lot more lines of dialogue to choose from than dialogue trees typically have which would increase development costs significantly.

Dialogue is one place where games really need to learn from the Pen and Paper world. Take my favorite Pen and Paper RPG of the moment, Burning Wheel. Burning Wheel presents a very interesting way to handle tense conversations, arguments and persuasion attempts called a "Duel of Wits" where you essentially verbally spar with your opponent, making feints, attacks and defenses with your words and pieces of your arguments, losing standing for things like repetition and granting bonuses for things like presenting evidence, making promises and even threatening your opponents. It has opened up a brand new method of handling social dynamics in Pen and Paper Roleplaying and a similar more electronically focused method could do just as well in the electronic world.

Heh. It's not quite the response I expected in this thread. It is an interesting idea, but I personally dislike the whole system for P&P and even moreso for digital gaming. It lets you use relevant statistics in social encounters (which has been a huge problem in pretty much any implementation of social skills) but forces the dialogue to fit the rolls and approaches. It makes realistic conversation more difficult by making it more complex, IMO.
But, it is a new approach, and second only to dialogue trees IMO. It certainly beats the hell out of Bethesda's attempts.

 

[LTK_70]

So what's tommorow's review ?

Modern Warfare 2. Really? No.

Okay, joking aside, I would like to hear what he has to say about Assassin's Creed 2.

Back on topic: A more fluid dialogue system like Yahtzee is describing might be too hard to implement at once, so maybe it's a better idea to do it in small steps. Nowadays, most dialogue gives the impression of a police interrogation. Usually you just don't walk up to people and start asking them questions out of the blue. This could be improved by giving you conversation opportunities or starters. When someone is in conversation with another NPC, you can usually barge right in as a PC and they'll act like they didn't have anything better to do than talk to you anyway. In reality it would be a better idea to wait for a particular subject to come up, or for the other person to leave. Something you could invest skill points in is approaching, where you get more skilled at attracting someone's attention, conversation starters, stuff like that.

Mass Effect 2 has got a few new dialogue options, I'm curious as to how they work that in. You can see the interrupting mechanic in this video: http://www.gametrailers.com/video/exclusive-scientist-mass-effect/58986

 

[Chipperz]

Realism in in-game dialog would fuck up ANY game beyond repair. It would mean having to stay glued to the screen trying to remember really hard whether Grey Wardens are supposed to pray for Andraste or Thor in the five seconds it takes for the NPC to ask you who you worship. Thor? Quick Load. Odin? Quick load. It would mean you'd have to remember all those 9 novels worth of content off the top of your head and know it so well you'd be able to come up with answers in real time, or your F9 (quick load, for you non DA players) key would need to be exchanged after every couple hours of gameplay.
What does piss me off is that they can't get their heads out of their asses on the Generic Character Means You Identify With Protagonist principle. We know you guys can get decent actors to perform the dialog, why the fuck can't I get a british guy saying the dialog option I just chose? I would be ten times more likely to choose the often available "How about I kill you instead?" option.

It's really not that hard to retain information about the plot. Are you really going to tell me that you can't remember that the Chantry worships the Maker, Dwarves worship the Ancestors and the Paragons and the Dalish worship the "Gods"? If someone asks you who you worship, it's going to either be The Maker, noone, or a racial choice, and none of them would penalise you.

I know that you were just using an example, but I can't think of any dialogue option I had to think about for more than five seconds. Enforcing it would add to immersion, especially if there was another line of dialogue from you saying nothing at all, even if it's just them getting more and more pissed off that you aren't saying anything.

Also, noone would be voiced by "a British guy". Everyone in Feralden has an American accent, which I'm surprisingly happy at - I'd ratherwe get American accents than awful British ones.

 

[jonnosferatu]

This actually sounds quite good.

 

[IAmWright777]

And the shoulder buttons control your fingers.

Ah, I just want you to know that you just made me laugh.

OT: Hey, I think that a change in the way characters interact wouldn't be a bad thing. Would take some getting used to, I think.

 

[Booze Zombie]

Perhaps instead a system where you select from a mass of sentences and then further from tone, in the style of a thought bubble with summaries of sentences in it and the tone represented as grammatical symbols such as exclamation and question marks.

Like you could say "what the fuck!?" or "what the fuck?", in this system.

 

[snowman6251]

Yahtzee basically took those dialogue trees and put them in real time. I guess it'd be interesting to see if only for a technical experiment and it might even turn out to be good but it just seems a little bizarre.

 

[DeathWyrmNexus]

It was lookin' good.

Then Yahtzee gave us his idea.

I cannot see this ever working in a game. Ever. It has a high potential for rage.

Dialog trees are fine if you ask me, they just need a bit of refinement, and bit of fleshing out.

Oh good, I'm not alone. I am trying to imagine trying to do a conversation mini game every time I just want some information before I wander off to stab things. Now imagine messing that minigame up as the minigames will get more challenging.

I don't think this system would work well in a game like Dragon Age, I do think it needs to be done in a game that is more conversation based. It is probably why it was in LSL, you don't do much beyond babble and try to get laid with odd mini games.

 

[Doug]

I honestly don't think this'll improve anything or be more interesting. Because...

1) You'd have to concentrate on your controls rather than the dialog, and whilst it wouldn't be as taxing as choosing between focusing on the icons or backgrounds in "Beatles Rockband", its still the same problem of either focusing on the game or focusing on whats been said.

2) Instead of semi-interesting dialog, you'd get generic 'meh' dialog in response, because no-one outside of Valve will donate years of there time to recording the vast number of possible unique dialog options for that system.

3) It doesn't really sound like it'd do much to improve anything; in fact, the idea of another semi-mini-game isn't something I'm looking forward too.

 

[Truly-A-Lie]

This looks like a reason why the face buttons are kept context only in Heavy Rain, you get to move around as you usually would while having a conversation and select topics with the face buttons.

 

[ccesarano]

The idea would be useful for a limited amount of conversations, but not all of them. That flowchart and scripting you were discussing? Imagine that in EVERY CONVERSATION of Dragon Age. It would be completely nuts.

Plus, I also played that Leisure Suit Larry game, and if you didn't want to have to do the mini-game repeatedly you had to actually try and do it right. As such, my attention went to the mini-game instead of what was being said. While in Leisure Suit Larry that doesn't really mean much, in a game like Dragon Age you'll miss a lot of things. Like "wait, why am I going to save that twerp child that got lost in what is literally the Highway to Hell beneath the dwarven kingdom?"

Used sparingly, it could be a pretty decent tactic. However, there needs to be a few other systems in place as well. Otherwise players would likely get sick of the concept.