On Dialogue Menus

[Harrie]

Dialog in games has different functions. Getting info, getting people to do things and giving the player the opportunity to say things that are in character.

I completely agree that for just getting information that you need anyway, a conversation is useless. I just don't think that solely for this purpose, a mini-game is useful. Just give the information and get on with the fun stuff is also an option.

For the purpose of manipulating people and being in character, conversation is just fun sometimes. I don't see how you can make a game out of being in character, I think thats just the fun part of saying things your way.

Getting people to do things is a place where a game could be fun however. Finding out their soft spots, winning their trust and manipulating them seems like a fun game element to me. Obviously, getting information about them (maybe from others) could be part of the game here.

It seems to me that conversation is a matter of intelligence and social skill, and making it into a game of manual dexterity is not the solution. I do think that we should think about other conversation possibilities. It could really improve the current situation.

How about the following mini game as a possible solution:
As you talk to someone you can start working towards some conversation goal like boosting your reputation, getting some item or getting the NPC to perform some task. Smalltalk or talk with others can provide you with conversation options to reach your goal (option +1 for each success). Saying the wrong things can decrease your options or success (-1 per mistake). In easy conversations you only need a few successes and in harder ones you need a lot.

Other option:
Reaching some conversation goal requires adequate responses, as you give more adequate responses a meter fills up until finally you reach your goal. Different conversation choices could have different amounts of progress towards or from the goal.

The thing is that failing to get someone to do something that you absolutely need and that no one else can fix for you, effectively stops the game in its tracks. So you have to wonder if you want to make that into a game you can loose.

 

[BonsaiK]

Gosh, he could have just said the truth, that he really has no decent ideas for a better system, instead of inventing some silly, impractical bollocks. No-one's going to implement a system like that. The LSL "sperm" idea is way better than what Yahtzee came up with.

 

[sketchesofpayne]

If you don't like navigating dialog trees and just want exposition then play a JRPG.

Bioware RPGs are basically just a dialog forest interspersed with combat sections.

 

[SirMax]

Damn, I was just getting interested at the end.

In all seriousness, the dual stick idea sounds like it has merit. I'm reminded somewhat of the conversation scheme from Mass Effect - while you still had hard-scripted responses, the conversations seemed to flow more naturally because you chose a general attitude rather than the response itself. It felt more like a real conversation and less like the Gandalf-Saurman back-and-forth that I thought of when the puppets got involved.

I'd say Mass Effect was trying to do that, but failed. Sure, attitudes were colour coded and put top or bottom or middle, but it was still a phrase, and half the time he wouldn't even use that specific phrase. The option would be "Yes, that's great" and he'd say "Yes, that's wonderful". That broke immersion for me terribly. I admit I thought of Mass Effect too, but that was more a step in the right direction than the solution. Fahrenheit/Indigo Prophecy did it a bit better, I think, since it was just options like "Divorce" "Weather" "How things have been going" etc. Both of them failed to stop the standing still while talking problem, though.

 

[Dhatz]

fi there's one thing that makes dialogues at least a bit better it is temporal memory, and yopu know the only game with such thing is Grand Theft Auto and that it's nto perfect because it doesn't remember subtitles bfore yout turn tem on. but wouldn't it be awesome if you could ask them to repeat the last sentence because you overherd it/didn't pay attentnion or to tell them to shut up. Even more awesome would be telling them you were totally ignoring the conversation because it was gibberish and making them make their point.

Edit:
what Sketchesofpayne said doesn't apply only to JRPGs. Borderlands is the same non-dialogish game.

 

[Odoylerules360]

Prototype that!

Just have 2 characters talking on a ZP background using that conversation scheme while one of them examines the other's DVD collection.

Do it!

 

[ZZoMBiE13]

Wait... the internet has decency protocols?

 

[Talo_AML]

I cant believe Yahtzee just wailed on the U.S Armed Forces. That's a low blow.

Even for him.

 

[yonderTheGreat]

The Bard's Tale game for the xbox (original) a few years back had a lite version of that idea and, thanks to superb writing, it turned out great. The game was a bland over-head hack-n-slash but was a blast to play. One of the very few successes in videogame comedy.

 

[plstcflsh]

what could be interesting in a game is a d40 style ruleset for making up individual NPC personalities. You could use those stats to generate a dynamic conversation. some attributes could be patience, tolerance, biases, wit, sense of humor, responsibility. this could be used to convince npc's to let you through doors, give you items or permission for other activity; and could lend itself to a very dynamic replayable gossip and drama oriented game. It would be interesting to see how this would effect a group conversation, or even a multiplayer dialog game.

 

[Miral]

As some others have already mentioned, this reminds me a lot of both Fahrenheit (aka Indigo Prophecy) and Façade [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fa%C3%A7ade_%28interactive_story%29] (the former of which I enjoyed [mostly], but enjoyment of the story suffered because too much concentration was required on the gameplay -- and of course because the story just went weird towards the end; the latter was interesting but I didn't really like it). The trouble with taking this to the extreme that Yahtzee is proposing is that (a) nobody would be willing to record that amount of dialogue and (b) that's the sort of conversations which I play games to get away from.

So no. Just no. Besides, I think the dialogue system in Dragon Age is the best part of the game. (I loves me a good story.)

I do agree with another earlier post though: I wish that developers would get over the idea that "anonymous/mute protagonist == good". It's not, especially in a game with dialogue trees. Especially not in a game with dialogue trees and choice of voices in the character creator. The game damn well knows what I want the character to sound like, and exactly what they're saying, so why the hell isn't it voiced?

 

[mishagale]

OK, there's no way I can be arsed to read the preceding 110 comments, so I'll just post my idea. Feel free not to read it either and skip straight ahead to posting your own totally rad idea.

Anyway, I'd suggest a sort of refinement of the dialog menus, rather than trying to turn it into a whole minigame. See the nice thing about RPGs is that they give you time to roll a cigarette or make the tea while J. Random-Sidequest-NPC exposits. It's only a shame you keep having to come back to the keyboard to decide whether or not to tell the guy you like his hat.

So what if you made all these decisions once, during character creation. Like in a pen'n'paper rpg, you decide what kind of character you want to play by picking an alignment, a backstory, quirks, predjudices &c, then when you converse, the game picks your responses to most of the questions for you. You sit back and watch it like a cutscene. It only prompts you for decisions which actually matter. The game updates it's model of what kind of person you are based on the choices you make, and tailors future conversations accordingly.

While we're on the subject, another idea I had was for a sort of "press X to not be a gullible prat" quicktime event. You know when you're talking to an NPC and they are obviously planning to betray you, but there's no conversation option that let's you not trust them. On the other hand, having an "are you a vampire?" option would kinda give the game away. So a "there's something not right here" button that opened up additional options would be pretty handy. Since players would otherwise just spam the button every conversation, you'd have to limit it's use to so many times per level or something.

Peace out, bedtime

 

[TitsMcGee1804]

I dont think there is anything wrong with dialogue trees, most of the time, the fact that im actually in a dialogue tree means i care enough about the character or the situation to merit seeking more information

 

[TitsMcGee1804]

Conversation should flow like a river, not like a big clunky lever...

The conversation flows like a lever? That similie doesn't work, Yahtzee!

....errr....yes it does

the conversation should FLOW like a RIVER, not like a clunky LEVER

read it again

 

[The Cake Is Annoying]

Personally I think if the DS can have a DS level of input response and Ikea's website can have an ASK ANNA breadth of response to the weirdest of questions its about time that voice recognition caught up. All consoles have microphones for them already.

Even if all ingame dialogue responses sounded like Stephen Hawking.

HELL, stick Steven Hawking in the next Guitar Hero game. I hear he's fantastic at keyboard.

 

[Jared]

I actually quite like the idea of this, it would add a whole new level of interaction. Yes, granted would take ALOT to set up, but, if done right it would make dialogue oh so more natural.

 

[ace_of_something]

I remember in the 'Blade Runner' adventure game. You could select your character's general attitude at any time by pausing the game I believe they were: intense, friendly, surly, normal and erratic (which was random) other than that the dialog worked the same.

 

[aarontg]

I agree that it dousen't sound very solid but it might work in execution if its done properly.

 

[ElArabDeMagnifico]

Totally off topic and most likely the wrong place to ask this, but, is PC gamer still really too important to mention the escapist?