On Dialogue Menus
- Thread starter Yahtzee Croshaw
- Start date
hahah, that made me chuckle every now and again.
I think that your idea is great, but it would have to be started out with a game that's purely dialogue-driven. My point is that Valve releases the great half life series, but the series have absolutely no interactive dialogue features, and even without valve having to spend manpower on npc interactivity, the half life episodes don't get released very often (and that's episodic gaming which should be released on a more regular basis than any other game). It's simply cost-inefficient and time consuming.
Also, along with the realism of everyday small-talk and awkward pausing comes the pace of the conversation which would turn the whole thing into a sort of Indigo Prophecy style of quicktime events. Nothing wrong with that, I guess.
I think that your idea is great, but it would have to be started out with a game that's purely dialogue-driven. My point is that Valve releases the great half life series, but the series have absolutely no interactive dialogue features, and even without valve having to spend manpower on npc interactivity, the half life episodes don't get released very often (and that's episodic gaming which should be released on a more regular basis than any other game). It's simply cost-inefficient and time consuming.
Also, along with the realism of everyday small-talk and awkward pausing comes the pace of the conversation which would turn the whole thing into a sort of Indigo Prophecy style of quicktime events. Nothing wrong with that, I guess.
I still think we need to develop super advanced AI that you can talk to using a microphone and will respond like a human... or an elf... or dwarf... anyway, this probably won't happen for years, which makes me sad. Just think though, imagine Oblivion if characters were not glued to the ground and traveled AROUND THE WORLD and conversed with each other, it would be like an MMORPG minus the MO, making it an MRPG!
Not a bad idea however I never really minded the whole convorsation thing. I think if there was more repercussions to being a dick or not it would add to it. The idea of a minigame for dialogue though I think would annoy me. On top of that I can just imagine you complaining that now there are too many generic things that are said. Like how mudcrabs are really annoying.
Its a good premise and like you said would need some hammering out. However minigames plus dialogue plus potentially fucking things up beyond repair seems not the best of ideas. In the end however this really isnt anything different its just the same thing but with a more interactive menu. I guess I just enjoy sitting there weighing my options and deciding what I want to to say.
Its a good premise and like you said would need some hammering out. However minigames plus dialogue plus potentially fucking things up beyond repair seems not the best of ideas. In the end however this really isnt anything different its just the same thing but with a more interactive menu. I guess I just enjoy sitting there weighing my options and deciding what I want to to say.
I love this idea, I remember my Dungeon Siege II days (really nice days mind you)... I could literally circle through all the dialog, make my way back to the start if it suited me so.
So like the system in Farenheit only more complex and deep?
I guess that would be intresting, but prehaps not worth the effort when dialog trees still have a nostalgia effect and the cost of the new system would be much larger than the trees.
I guess that would be intresting, but prehaps not worth the effort when dialog trees still have a nostalgia effect and the cost of the new system would be much larger than the trees.
Relaxation and fondness should be reflected by nonverbal and paraverbal cues (facial expression, posture, gesture, tone of voice, etc.). They should be joined by an "interest/boredom" scale, for sure.
Implementing a conversation system like this well would create a nice form of alternative action to combat-oriented gameplay, using many of the same twitch reflexes. Buttons could be used to cause your character to interrupt someone, to keep talking when interrupted, to make gestures and control other non/para-verbals, to stop yourself mid-sentence, etc.
It wouldn't be any more complex to script than an MMO combat engine - the only question is, would it be as lucrative? Developer persistence and interest level is directly proportional (overall, usually) to expected monetary gain. IMO, properly developed and marketed, this kind of game could be a huge draw to many people who don't currently play a lot of video games. Requiring you to moment-by-moment manage your emotional connections with other characters as opposed to your life versus your enemies', but with the same level of immersive and challenging game play, could be a significant draw to potential female players and potential older players - two demographic descriptors for whose groups the "casual" (mostly puzzle-oriented) games are currently the only offering.
Implementing a conversation system like this well would create a nice form of alternative action to combat-oriented gameplay, using many of the same twitch reflexes. Buttons could be used to cause your character to interrupt someone, to keep talking when interrupted, to make gestures and control other non/para-verbals, to stop yourself mid-sentence, etc.
It wouldn't be any more complex to script than an MMO combat engine - the only question is, would it be as lucrative? Developer persistence and interest level is directly proportional (overall, usually) to expected monetary gain. IMO, properly developed and marketed, this kind of game could be a huge draw to many people who don't currently play a lot of video games. Requiring you to moment-by-moment manage your emotional connections with other characters as opposed to your life versus your enemies', but with the same level of immersive and challenging game play, could be a significant draw to potential female players and potential older players - two demographic descriptors for whose groups the "casual" (mostly puzzle-oriented) games are currently the only offering.
The major flaw I see inherent in a system wherein dialog attempts to be more flowing (I.E, Yahtzee's system, mass effect, Fahrenheit) is that you start getting the IDMTSTGDI.
What is IDMTSTGDI? Simple, its when you chose "I can't let you do that" and end up with Shepard shooting someone in the face.
I DIDN'T MEAN TO SAY THAT GODDAMN IT!
That's one thing I love about Dragon Age: When you say something, you're actually SAYING it and the characters respond.
I think that rather than trying to build a new kind of car that uses square wheels and runs on farts, lets try and make a car that uses circular wheels and runs on gasoline...but lets make it a very spiffy, well done car.
Dragon Age: Origins is a step in the right direction by having the dialog options varied and the responses witty. My suggestion as to where to go? Broaden the interconnections in each conversation option. Program it so that, say, a shift between totally pissed off and completely mellow can't happen.
I'm not really sure how to actually do this, but I think that just improving the writing and coding is a good way to go.
As for the standing around, looking at one another? We're moving away from that, I think...Mass Effect has very lively conversations, and Dragon Age had more than just standing around. That's just a technological problem, not a writing problem. And frankly, technology always gets better.
Writing? Now writing, I'm not so sure about.
What is IDMTSTGDI? Simple, its when you chose "I can't let you do that" and end up with Shepard shooting someone in the face.
I DIDN'T MEAN TO SAY THAT GODDAMN IT!
That's one thing I love about Dragon Age: When you say something, you're actually SAYING it and the characters respond.
I think that rather than trying to build a new kind of car that uses square wheels and runs on farts, lets try and make a car that uses circular wheels and runs on gasoline...but lets make it a very spiffy, well done car.
Dragon Age: Origins is a step in the right direction by having the dialog options varied and the responses witty. My suggestion as to where to go? Broaden the interconnections in each conversation option. Program it so that, say, a shift between totally pissed off and completely mellow can't happen.
I'm not really sure how to actually do this, but I think that just improving the writing and coding is a good way to go.
As for the standing around, looking at one another? We're moving away from that, I think...Mass Effect has very lively conversations, and Dragon Age had more than just standing around. That's just a technological problem, not a writing problem. And frankly, technology always gets better.
Writing? Now writing, I'm not so sure about.
Who in holy hell wants to carefully wade through a sea of subtle options in order to massage the faux sensibilities of some ugly, fucking rock-stupid stat-bundle of a simulacrum? Particularly when the end result is you either get the bauble/info/quest the plot requires of you, or you don't? Aren't games enough of an autism simulator already? I suppose Realdolls could be similarly improved by adding a "romance" meter, requiring the sad misfit user to buy gifts, give foot rubs and listen sympathetically to procedurally generated small talk before lube application commences.
Until NPCs have some agency and goals beyond standing around as boolean vending machines for the game script, elaborations of conversation mechanics are a waste of time. Asking the player to treat these mannequins as true partners in conversation is doomed to failure, because their only reason for existence -is- the player. They have no impact or life in the world whatsoever outside of their relation to the player--their purpose is either giving something to the player or dying to the player, who is the -sole force of significant change in the world-.
So why not give NPC's agency beyond handing the player shit or dying by the player's frenzied clicking? Because to give them more purpose would be to subvert the entire Mary-Sue fantasy of which game plots are made, wherein everything and everyone stands around waiting for the player to throw various logic switches to advance the script. The fundamental premise is shot if you give NPCs agency, since if the player need only waltz in and kill rats for an hour before destroying the foozle, then fucking -anyone- could have done it at any time.
What might Yahtzeetron look like in a standard RPG? Let's see:
"Oh no! Looks like I've stressed out King Fargle with my impetuous greeting inflection! Game ON! Oh wait, nothing's going to happen. He's just going to stand there until I get him to reveal the location of Princess Brylcreem's ****-wiper, and so am I, because there's fuck-all else to do until I get that for her." (stops playing games forever)
Yeah, current systems are a shameful disguise for a lack of interactivity, but the root of the problem goes much deeper. And solutions should -not- involve adding a fancy hat to the disguise.
Until NPCs have some agency and goals beyond standing around as boolean vending machines for the game script, elaborations of conversation mechanics are a waste of time. Asking the player to treat these mannequins as true partners in conversation is doomed to failure, because their only reason for existence -is- the player. They have no impact or life in the world whatsoever outside of their relation to the player--their purpose is either giving something to the player or dying to the player, who is the -sole force of significant change in the world-.
So why not give NPC's agency beyond handing the player shit or dying by the player's frenzied clicking? Because to give them more purpose would be to subvert the entire Mary-Sue fantasy of which game plots are made, wherein everything and everyone stands around waiting for the player to throw various logic switches to advance the script. The fundamental premise is shot if you give NPCs agency, since if the player need only waltz in and kill rats for an hour before destroying the foozle, then fucking -anyone- could have done it at any time.
What might Yahtzeetron look like in a standard RPG? Let's see:
"Oh no! Looks like I've stressed out King Fargle with my impetuous greeting inflection! Game ON! Oh wait, nothing's going to happen. He's just going to stand there until I get him to reveal the location of Princess Brylcreem's ****-wiper, and so am I, because there's fuck-all else to do until I get that for her." (stops playing games forever)
Yeah, current systems are a shameful disguise for a lack of interactivity, but the root of the problem goes much deeper. And solutions should -not- involve adding a fancy hat to the disguise.
neat. however since the thumbs are already in use for the conversation you only have the shoulder buttons to rely on for physical movement so you may have trouble trying to physically maneuver into a corner the NPC with intimidation. and there are only really four options (two of them with varying degrees). i can imagine one shoulder button for interruption, another for physical intimidation (ie. twirling the pistol around like a cowboy while smiling creepily), and another for murder all being mandatory. i suppose this could vary depending on class selection and evilness and invisible NPC stats. the fourth button could vary with situation ranging from quicktime event blocking of enemy attacks should he or she decide to quickly murder you to seduction (aka the george costanza button) to giving a great big bear hug to the NPC. the fourth option could queue things like handshakes (which make the murder button more likely to work and possibly more stealthy). This sounds like it could turn into a wooden puppet conversation without any time to think about the response if executed poorly.
"Remember the Ockham's Razor".
I always liked solution presented in good, old "Sam & Max hit the road". No pregenerated questions, just icons like exclamation or question mark. I am pretty tired with all those D&D (Ad&d) based games where my protagonist is 22th lev mage with 21 points both in charisma and intelligence (sophisticated here one could say), and i still have to choose correct answers for him/her in each and every dialogue.
I would like to present my little puppet with a hint of what style he should use in conversation and leave rest to his abilities. "Be reasonable", "be humble", "unleash fury" - something Mass Effect is close to (but not close enough).
I always liked solution presented in good, old "Sam & Max hit the road". No pregenerated questions, just icons like exclamation or question mark. I am pretty tired with all those D&D (Ad&d) based games where my protagonist is 22th lev mage with 21 points both in charisma and intelligence (sophisticated here one could say), and i still have to choose correct answers for him/her in each and every dialogue.
I would like to present my little puppet with a hint of what style he should use in conversation and leave rest to his abilities. "Be reasonable", "be humble", "unleash fury" - something Mass Effect is close to (but not close enough).
Not a bad idea at all. However I would love to see it taken to an even greater extreme. I believe this has been used to a certain extent in really old-school stuff such as text adventures (I dont have any examples as I would have played them many moons ago). The dialogue for the npcs is scripted (preferrably loads, and small talk as suggested by yahtzee). The dialogue for the player character is all supplied by the player. I.e. actually typed in. The NPC is then able to respond to certain words/phrases included, as well as grammar (or lack of it) and politeness. Party npcs could also offer advice to the player during conversation (why dont you ask about the dragon?, try being a bit more polite etc).
Now I know there would be tons of problems with this but hey, I'd love it and it would cement the 'Role Playing' back into Role Playing Game.
As an aside about voice acting, I have no problem with the player character remaining unvoiced. I am that character and I don't want a voice that sounds nothing like mine. It wasn't a problem in Baldur's Gate and it isn't a problem in Dragon Age.
Now I know there would be tons of problems with this but hey, I'd love it and it would cement the 'Role Playing' back into Role Playing Game.
As an aside about voice acting, I have no problem with the player character remaining unvoiced. I am that character and I don't want a voice that sounds nothing like mine. It wasn't a problem in Baldur's Gate and it isn't a problem in Dragon Age.
So what happened to the last part? "internet decency protocols!??" There are none! It's the god damned internet! 90% porn! I want to read the rest!
And I like the conversation mechanic idea. Even if it's not good for immersion or fun at all (but if done right it WILL be those things) it will encourage the introvert gamers to learn at least a skeleton structure of human interaction instead of letting them get lost completely to their fantasy world. Of course they will probably do that anyway and just find a different game if they sense anything trying to coax them out of their box. But hey, its a step in the right direction instead of continuing to pander to, and enable a debilitating gaming addiction.
And I like the conversation mechanic idea. Even if it's not good for immersion or fun at all (but if done right it WILL be those things) it will encourage the introvert gamers to learn at least a skeleton structure of human interaction instead of letting them get lost completely to their fantasy world. Of course they will probably do that anyway and just find a different game if they sense anything trying to coax them out of their box. But hey, its a step in the right direction instead of continuing to pander to, and enable a debilitating gaming addiction.
will the right and left trigger buttons be for feet and hands during your sex game? I guess trigger sensitivity could be for how rough you are with the boobies
Hah, as I was reading this, I kept thinking "Oblivion....Oblivion....Oblivion", and what get's a mention at the end of the article? Oblivion. I will forever be haunted by the four or five voice actors employed to help further the monotony of conversation within that game.
I always like yahtzee's game mechanic ideas, shame so few if any will ever take form in a decent game any time soon.
Here's hoping Bioware will innovate their own system even further post ME2, that game already looks like its doing a far better job than Mass Effect 1 or Dragon Age, characters express more, move around more and can be interrupted.
Here's hoping Bioware will innovate their own system even further post ME2, that game already looks like its doing a far better job than Mass Effect 1 or Dragon Age, characters express more, move around more and can be interrupted.
having to play a mini-game every time you talk to an npc would be tiresome and more of a chore than a brief moment of rest.
I'm sorry, but I don't see this working in the least. Every human has a different communication style; granted, most of us abide by social norms, and in doing so are the same. However, there are still nuances which you could never replicate in a video game (well, I'm talking near-future). I feel like there would be far too many instances of the player being punished by the game for not knowing the correct response, even if the correct one is unknowable; at least, with scripted conversation, you have at least one obvious answer if you get confounded by the others.