On Gaymers and Cons

[secretsantaone]

My rights do not end where your feelings begin. You being offended by me using the word ****** in a different context means absolutely nothing to me.

I am not disputing your right to say it. You have every right to say it. I'm saying that if you *do* say it the consequence is that you will be needlessly hurting people for no good reason. I am saying that while I have no ability to infringe on your rights to say whatever hateful and hurtful things you wish, and indeed I have no desire to infringe on your rights, I wish to influence your decisions. I have informed you multiple times now that to use that word is offensive and hurtful to many people. You can no longer claim ignorance of this fact if you do so. I now consider it a moral failing on your part if you do and judge you accordingly.

Notice how I didn't infringe on your rights there? Or before? I made an impassioned plea to your humanity instead to stop being needlessly hurtful. I'm not censoring you, I'm asking you to make the decision to censor yourself. You are of course, free to ignore that. Just as I am free to adjust my opinion of you accordingly. Freedom of speech does not mean freedom from people thinking you're a dick if you make *bad* speech.

People are offended by everything. There's plenty of people out there that are offended by gay people, mixed marriage, people who don't share the same religion etc. Should I avoid saying "black equality" to be respectful of them? When I say something that is interpreted in a way that I didn't mean I will apologise for being unclear, but not for causing offense. Nowhere have I condoned the use of word ****** as a slur against gay people and I still do not condone it, I'm merely saying that it means other things in different contexts and it's perfectly fine to use it in these contexts.

 

[Calibanbutcher]

You've taken all the justification and examples I gave and just said "no it's not". ****** does not just mean gay anymore, is it really that hard to understand? Louis CK does an entire skit about it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fcja4WFFzDw

I never said gays weren't marginalised, I said they were becoming less, thus meaning the word is gradually losing impact.

I also never said the word has stopped referring to homosexuals. I just said it can also be used as a general insult depending on the context. It's in a transitional period of gradually becoming the second meaning.

Really, you being offended doesn't mean that much to me because I know that I wasn't trying to be offensive. You can get offended about anything, it doesn't make you right.

If you can't deal with someone arguing an opposing viewpoint while backing it up with justifications and examples, without getting angry, then you're no better than an infant.

****** does mean gay. I'm sorry to have to contradict you again, but it does. I still get called ****** when I hold hands with a guy where other people can see. I still get called ****** by my cousin when he wants to tell me how disgusting he finds me for my attraction to men. I still get called ****** for being bi. The word has not changed meaning. I've now laid out 3 times for you the logical steps as to why ****** is an insult. You = ******, ****** = bad, therefore you = bad. That is what you're saying when you use ****** as an insult. You can't magically just skip that middle step just because you say you are. Getting insulted by the fact that you look at people calling me a ****** and me getting angry and decide it's the people levelling the homophobic slur that need defending isn't infantile. Getting angry because you are being insulting is not infantile. Disagreeing with you is not infantile.

And your intentions not to offend mean jack shit if you also don't look at what you're saying and if it causes needless hurt.

Does it hurt anyone for you to stop defending that word? No. Does it help anyone? IMMENSELY. I'm not angry at you because I think you're intending to be offensive. I'm angry at you because you can clearly see a situation where you can actually do some good in this world, you can make a measurable positive effect on the lives of those you come into contact with by DOING NOTHING, and instead you are choosing to expend time and energy... On what exactly? What do you gain by being able to throw "******" around willy nilly? What is the net benefit to you to keep hurting me and others like me like this? Why is this so fucking hard? Is your freedom to use whatever hateful slur you wish really worth alienating people like me like this?

Are we really worth so little in your eyes?

Because that's what you're saying. That's what we're offended by. Not that you're doing anything with the intent to offend, but that we appear to be worth SO FUCKING LITTLE to you that you can't even bring yourself to just do nothing here. To stop defending the slur.

It hurts us. It reminds us of every time we've been beaten and ostracised for our sexuality. ****** isn't changing it's meaning to us, because no matter how much YOU forget what we've been through and move on, we can't, because we're still living it.

I'm not being infantile. I'm being hurt.

You, specifically, by being as unthinking and uncaring as you are are hurting me.

I'm making an appeal to you on our common humanity, on our common love of gaming, on everything that makes us similar rather than everything that makes us different to just think on that for five seconds.

Please.

You do realise words can have multiple meanings depending on context right? You do understand this principal?

I haven't called you a ******, because in the context of you being gay it would be taken as a slur against you for being homosexual.

If a guy starts bitching about his girlfriend I'd call him a ******, not meaning he's gay, just that he's being a little *****. Context.

My rights do not end where your feelings begin. You being offended by me using the word ****** in a different context means absolutely nothing to me.

Just one thing:
If you call your friend a "******" for being a "*****", wouldn't it be simpler just to, you know, call him a "*****"?


On a related note:
So there is a videogame con for gay gamers?
I did not know that before I read the comic and nothing has changed for me now that I know.
Good for them I guess and all that, but this does not affect me in any way whatsoever.

 

[Guestyman]

I'm merely saying that it means other things in different contexts and it's perfectly fine to use it in these contexts.

First off, I would like to apologise for insulting you earlier. I honestly had mistakenly come to the conclusion that you were arguing from a bad faith position which I now see you are not. But I'd like to attempt to explain why it's still a bad idea to use that word regardless of context.

I'd like to tell you a story that begins by being totally unrelated.

When I was in high school I had this friend called Tim. He was a fundamentally good person, and we hung out together a lot. He and his girlfriend Sarah were really important friends to me. Then, about 8 years ago last May, he died. Tim was a boarder from a town called Minlaton and he had gone home for the weekend to see his family. Driving back to school on Sunday afternoon he was hit by a reckless driver on a country road in a head on collision. He lingered for days before he eventually died. It was traumatic for me for many reasons that I won't get into here.

I went to his funeral in his home town of Minalton, and made the trip out again for the five year anniversary of his death.

What has this to do with anything, you ask?

I still to this day can't hear the word 'Minlaton' spoken, or see it written down without having a physical reaction. My sister read it out in the newspaper yesterday without knowing and I involuntarily jerked back as if physically struck. When I hear it, I don't just feel sad because I'm reminded of it, I instantly start re-living my sadness from the moment at my best friend's death. It's what psychologists call a trauma trigger. In me it's mild as fuck. It's a sadness at a friend's passing that I uncontrollably feel as if it were new, that I relive instead of remember when given the correct stimulus. It's horrible, but in the grand scheme of trauma triggers it's laughably mild.

For many people in the queer community, physical abuse is a thing they have to endure. I did. I was a victim of gay bashing. For some reason in my case, I wasn't overly affected by it psychologically. Many people aren't as lucky as me. For many people, the word ****** can be triggering. By using it in their presence you can cause them to re-live their abuse. This is, I hope you agree, not a desirous state of affairs.

For many people in the queer community depression and mental health issues as a result of isolation and bullying is a reality. Queer youth are 6 times as likely to have severe depression and 8 times more likely to attempt suicide. The use of "******" especially in gaming, where people turn to for their escapism from this crapsack of a world, reminds them of their isolation and ostracisation.

So I hope you realise that I'm not asking you to stop using the slur because I think you're being mean. I'm asking you to stop because it has the potential for real harm in someone's life, irrespective of potentially mitigating context. I'm asking you to stop because it's the right thing to do.

 

[HHammond]

Same reason people do anything: Ego.

Wow this is just... wow. You have pretty much just summed up everything that is wrong with gamers and the community.

Ego? Ego? Seriously? Are you actually serious? You think it's ego that LGBT people want their own con? Or any other minority for that matter? Look at the community we live in! The term "fag" and "*****" are part of the regular vocabulary, women are pretty much told "tits or GTFO" not only by ignorant gamers on the internet but also by the games they play through oversexualised women who are only there to be dominated by men. Men who, in most cases, are not sexualised? And I know you produced the bull shit argument "but they are! Kratos!" but no. Kratos is not sexualised to appeal to gay men and straight women, Kratos is sexualised to appeal to you, to perpetuate that power fantasy, to make you feel more like a man. Kratos is the developers idea of "the perfect man" (physically at least). What are there for LGBT gamers? Nothing. Name as many gay male characters, lesbian characters or even transexual characters as you can. Now compare that to white, straight, unshaven men. It's pretty scary.

And then you have the audacity to claim that it's ego? You sir have no idea. Being gay and young is fucking terrifying. You turn on the internet and are greeted with homophobia and abuse just because you happen to prefer one sex to the "normal" one. Being a gay gamer is terrifying. I can't tell you how many people I've seen terrified over their sexuality because of the abuse they would get over it. We live in a society that teaches that you have to be straight to be right and that is horrifying. To see that no, you're not alone, and that there are people like you in this avalanche of hatred is so affirming it cannot be explained. The truth is, the stupid, obvious truth you can't grasp, is that minorities in the video game industry are abused, ignored and abandoned, and then people like you try to hush it up and claim there is no problem when there is! This con isn't about exclusivity! It's about the problem. It is showing there is a problem in our community that NEEDS to be addressed and if the rest of the community will refuse to address it then they will find somewhere safe to express themselves.

You're here on the internet, you're on a forum, a (mostly) safe way to express yourself. You are exercising that same right by using a video game forum! Other people have mentioned that but by using a video game forum, by your logic, you have cut video games off from the rest of society! I don't think you need to be a genius to point out how little sense that makes.

And I know you've said "oh but the sexy women appeal to lesbians to!" Oh good GOD I do not have enough time or space to go into how wrong that is so I'll make is simple. Lesbians do find women attractive, yes that's sort of how it works, but they do not necessarily enjoy sexuality in the same way straight men do. Women in video games are mostly built up on male fantasies, objects to be conquered by domineering men, which obviously isn't always true (so please don't produce a list of female characters where this isn't true because that is not an argument, I can produce a longer list where this is true). Straight men do not equal gay women. Likewise gay men do not equal straight women. They have different sensibilities.

Just think, think before you say crap like this because your arguments just reek of ignorance and lack of understanding. Things are not as black and white and you seem to think.

 

[need4snacks]

If it was publicly acceptable to use racial slurs directed at my race, I'd kinda feel hated and left out too. I'm going to be honest though, I think it has a lot more to do with who is saying it than what is being said. If my friends used insults specifically targeting me in anyway, I'd know they were kidding and it wouldn't bother me at all. But some stranger at a convention (much less, pretty much everyone at the convention) using such insults - yeah, it'd have that effect. Same thing applies to a person using an insult that could also apply to them; rarely do they mean it, and you'll take it as a joke.

Lets not pretend that words themselves offend us (if they do - you're way to sensitive, bro.), but lets also not pretend that complex social structures, which sometimes drive a person to feeling shameful when they shouldn't; don't exist.

 

[lord.jeff]

Hey do any of you guys know of videogames that feature openly (i.e. not implied ala Marcus/Dom shipping) gay protagonists?

I honestly cant think of one Ive played and it bothers me

The main character from Fear Effect was lesbian, and Kanji from Persona 4 is gay.

 

[secretsantaone]

Just one thing:
If you call your friend a "******" for being a "*****", wouldn't it be simpler just to, you know, call him a "*****"?

Welcome to synonyms.

 

[secretsantaone]

I'm merely saying that it means other things in different contexts and it's perfectly fine to use it in these contexts.

First off, I would like to apologise for insulting you earlier. I honestly had mistakenly come to the conclusion that you were arguing from a bad faith position which I now see you are not. But I'd like to attempt to explain why it's still a bad idea to use that word regardless of context.

I'd like to tell you a story that begins by being totally unrelated.

When I was in high school I had this friend called Tim. He was a fundamentally good person, and we hung out together a lot. He and his girlfriend Sarah were really important friends to me. Then, about 8 years ago last May, he died. Tim was a boarder from a town called Minlaton and he had gone home for the weekend to see his family. Driving back to school on Sunday afternoon he was hit by a reckless driver on a country road in a head on collision. He lingered for days before he eventually died. It was traumatic for me for many reasons that I won't get into here.

I went to his funeral in his home town of Minalton, and made the trip out again for the five year anniversary of his death.

What has this to do with anything, you ask?

I still to this day can't hear the word 'Minlaton' spoken, or see it written down without having a physical reaction. My sister read it out in the newspaper yesterday without knowing and I involuntarily jerked back as if physically struck. When I hear it, I don't just feel sad because I'm reminded of it, I instantly start re-living my sadness from the moment at my best friend's death. It's what psychologists call a trauma trigger. In me it's mild as fuck. It's a sadness at a friend's passing that I uncontrollably feel as if it were new, that I relive instead of remember when given the correct stimulus. It's horrible, but in the grand scheme of trauma triggers it's laughably mild.

For many people in the queer community, physical abuse is a thing they have to endure. I did. I was a victim of gay bashing. For some reason in my case, I wasn't overly affected by it psychologically. Many people aren't as lucky as me. For many people, the word ****** can be triggering. By using it in their presence you can cause them to re-live their abuse. This is, I hope you agree, not a desirous state of affairs.

For many people in the queer community depression and mental health issues as a result of isolation and bullying is a reality. Queer youth are 6 times as likely to have severe depression and 8 times more likely to attempt suicide. The use of "******" especially in gaming, where people turn to for their escapism from this crapsack of a world, reminds them of their isolation and ostracisation.

So I hope you realise that I'm not asking you to stop using the slur because I think you're being mean. I'm asking you to stop because it has the potential for real harm in someone's life, irrespective of potentially mitigating context. I'm asking you to stop because it's the right thing to do.

As sad as that is, any word could be a trigger. If someone explicitly asks me not to use it then sure, but I'm not going to stop saying it just because there's an off chance someone around me might remember bad memories.

 

[Killclaw Kilrathi]

What is so bad about having a con where LGBT issues in gaming is the main focus?

Nothing.

But the problem comes in is the premises and excuses people are using to justify it's existence. Just on this thread alone there have been arguments like "becaue we are discriminated against in gaming community" or "because we can't have LGBT issuses brought up in normal cons". The holier than thou are, you will never understand us or suffer like us because you are not LGBT and finnaly "just because your a bigot" arguments do nothing to help and infact can start the rifts between the "gayers" and the rest of the community.

Yeah, thats what i was talking about before when i was talking about going to a womens comic convention & we ended up leaving early because the female friend i was with was deeply offended by the open bigotry & gender hatred being spoken. It was her who amusingly pointed out that "that wasn't a womens comic convention safe space, that was just a man hating convention for comic book fans."

It really was quite an eye opening experience.

I suppose I have to ask, is that really a big deal? That definitely doesn't sound like my kind of con, but I'm certainly not going to denounce them. If they've got the backers and the money to run a convention, I'd say good on em.

If you ask me, if there's a call for something and someone is willing to raise the money and organize it, let it run. Gaymercon got well over three times the funding they needed through Kickstarter, so clearly there's a call for it and people can choose to go if they want. It's not like this will draw LGBT people away from regular gaming cons, anyway.

 

[lord.jeff]

Now i know you wanted the opinion of someone gay, but unfortnately the view of many minorities is one of self imposed victimhood... An the primary triat of self imposed victims is how hyperbolic they are about there victimhood. I'm not saying that was likely to happen here, but its better off that someone fairly objective makes a statement.

It is laughable that, considering what you've posted so far, you consider yourself in any way objective.

Except i'm posting BECAUSE i'm objective. This is happening in a different country, on a different continent, on the other side of the world from me. I literally have no horse in this race. I also hold no animosity towards gay people, but am aware of minority persecution complexes. As such i can put forward a view based only on what is, not on emotionalised logic. Makes me the perfect objective speaker.

Something you your self cannot say given you just attempted to make an appeal to motive.

You've had several posts about how special interest groups are taking away your toys, changing gaming/convetions to suit them and not you, this entire forum is filled with you trying to play the victim of these groups it sounds very biased to me.

 

[alphamalet]

This comic is so messed up.

The intent is good: Everyone should be treated equally no matter what their sexual orientation. Something I, and a lot of other people agree with.

The problem: They say that you are either ignorant, naive, or a bigot if question the subject matter of their comic.

Even very open-minded people like me, and a lot of others in this thread, are able to level fair-minded scrutiny at what is being proposed in the comic. To suggest that there is no plausible justification for questioning the comic beyond being a bigot or ignorant is just wrong. The comic fails because it is too smug for its own good, and muddles up an overall good message.

 

[Legion]

*snip*

An excellent way of putting it.

It is unfortunate that it is necessary or seen to be, but the reasoning is perfectly sound.

This comic is so messed up.

The intent is good: Everyone should be treated equally no matter what their sexual orientation. Something I, and a lot of other people agree with.

The problem: They say that you are either ignorant, naive, or a bigot if question the subject matter of their comic.

Even very open-minded people like me, and a lot of others in this thread, are able to level fair-minded scrutiny at what is being proposed in the comic. To suggest that there is no plausible justification for questioning the comic beyond being a bigot or ignorant is just wrong. The comic fails because it is too smug for its own good, and muddles up an overall good message.

It is like that when it comes down to most controversial subjects. Just look at the ones in regards to sexism.

That said, it is supposed to be satire, so it's not really supposed to be taken entirely seriously.

 

[HHammond]

No, i just summed up what is wrong with people.

Now i've ignored the rest of your post because frankly once i read through half a dozen lines of you using yourself as a stand in for every game man ever & once you then used that to insinuate your own self inflicted victimhood five or six times i kind of got bored.

Maybe I have strong feelings on this. It's true, I do. Although it isn't really my "victimhood" because I decided to stop taking people like you seriously a long time ago but I've seen what homophobic and ignorant comments like yours have done to people. Don't believe me? Turn on the news. Have a look at how many LGBT suicides there are every year.

And the irony of you complaining about someone else using victimhood after your ridiculous comments about "feminists oppressing men" despite white, straight men being the most powerful and least oppressed group of people in the history of ever whilst women where told they could only be housewives and babymakers, owned by men, black people where enslaved and gay people where executed. Oh but no, poor patriarchy! Woe is you.

Firstly, stop over using fear words. The above prospect does not scare you... Now, me chasing you around with a chainsaw screaming "The eggs, the eggs are hatching," as i try to remove your head with a chainsaw, backed up by a posse of clown faced spiders, thats actually scary.

This... I do not know what to do with this. Yes, that would be scary, but fear is not limited to basic, primal stuff, it can be extended to anxiety concerning society. This is fairly obvious. You don't see me having a go at you for some of your grammatical inaccuracies, stop trying to nitpick, it just looks like you're running out of points and it seems like you are.

Secondly absense does not denote exlcusion. There are plenty of games with gay, lesbian or bisexual characters, some are even protagonists. The fact that we can name more that aren't those minorities is not suprising... You do get that a "minority" means you are not in the majority. In fact in America members of the LGBT actually makes up less then 5% of the entire population mass (something i only found out yesterday, as it was a fun census fact).

To which I respond: so? 5% is a lot of people. That's 15 and a half MILLION people. Just in a America. That's a hell of a lot of people and that's not even taking into account that the actual number is estimated to be much higher than that because people are too scared to speak out because of societal pressures.

Just because your personal niche isn't being heavily pandered to, it doesn't mean you are being exlcuded.

Did we ask to be pandered to? No. We asked to be represented. That's not exactly a big ask.

Of course none of that changes the fact that the gaymer con is about ego, as are almost all human endeavours. Had they been legitmately interested in civil discourse they would have been better off having it as part of a "normal" convention.

Okay, while I think this is bollocks, assuming we went with the assumption that it is about ego, as well as all "human endeavours", then surely there is no problem? Because if a regular con is about "ego" then it's sub-categories are also about ego just as much so it doesn't even matter?

Your arguments are senseless and ignorant. You seem to lack the ability to comprehend that not everyone is exactly the same and therefore sometimes it's nice to just be part of something that accepts you. Luckily for you, I'm guessing you happen to be my quite a majority stand point so you get accepted a lot, but other people don't. Think about other people for a second.

 

[alphamalet]

It is like that when it comes down to most controversial subjects. Just look at the ones in regards to sexism.

That said, it is supposed to be satire, so it's not really supposed to be taken entirely seriously.

The comic is definitely satirical. The notes accompanied by the comic are not.

Captcha: Underpants
Oddly Appropriate

 

[lord.jeff]

You've had several posts about how special interest groups are taking away your toys, changing gaming/convetions to suit them and not you, this entire forum is filled with you trying to play the victim of these groups it sounds very biased to me.

Yes. But you see thats the difference between PLAYING the victim & actually being a victim. For instance if i were to come upto you & punch you in the face, you are now a victim of violence. Now if i stand on the other side of a room & think about punching you in the face, but don't punch you in the face, the fact that i could punch you in the face makes you not a victim. Standing around telling people how you are victim because i could have punched you in the face is PLAYING victim.

Did you get jumped and beaten down by a group of homosexuals?

 

[peruvianskys]

But to be fair mate, the term is used because people know its going to get a rise out of you. Be the bigger person, if you are indeed gay, then how is that an insult? you know how you fight that kind of thing? Turn around and really gay it up: "Oh baby want to come over here & make it a threesome... you can be the meat in this sandwhich." Because nothing removes the power of a term like taking it for your own... You giant Geek.

You know, I'm sure it's really easy for people who are not constantly verbally harassed, threatened, and abused to decide what they would do in such a situation. The fact is, unless the word has been hurled at you hundreds of times a year, for a decade or so, occasionally while being PHYSICALLY ASSAULTED, you don't get to decide the proper reaction to it. LGBT people have the right to complain when people go out of their way to hurt them with a term specifically designed for offense; your faux-enlightened "take the power away from them by not reacting" is essentially victim-blaming.

When a homophobic asshole verbally harasses a gay man, 100% of the fault lies with the person doing the attacking, and the victim has the right to react with anger and frustration. I tend to think that those who disagree are people who never really have to endure such behavior. If you were attacked on a daily basis because of an essential part of who you are, with words designed specifically to highlight that elemental facet of your humanity as negative, debased, and shitty, then I think you'd be a little less quick to provide LGBT people with condescending strategies for "getting over it."

 

[HHammond]

Hahahahahahahaha, no.

Wow, you are either a poe, or an a complete idiot: i'll let you decide which one.

An with that i move on. Things to do that are actually useful... Study, sleep & get back to work mostly. Educating you to the point where we can have a real discussion about the actual issues i'm afraid is just not on the cards.

Don't worry, the irony of this statement is not lost on me.

 

[Killclaw Kilrathi]

Oh kickstarter... ick.

No offense but Kickstarter is kind of the leaking anus of the internet (taking over the role previously held by 4/chan). Just because something gets kickstarter funding, doesn't mean it should... I think we all learnt that lesson with the feminist frequency scam... Hey Anita, where are those videos that were due out at the end of last year? Whats that, you spent the money on a new prius for yourself instead? Awkward.

But at the end of the day i wish them the best of luck with there convention... I just personally don't see any other reason other then ego for it to exist, but to each there own i suppose.

I'm in agreement, there is plenty of stuff on Kickstarter that's crap. But it's still a part of the free market, in fact it's a pretty glaring example of it. Someone offers something and if there's enough demand it's produced. I'm sure if the Gaymercon heads of staff run off with the money that will make the media too, and we'll be having that discussion if and when it happens. For now the fact remains that it was successfully funded.

To be fair, I really do see where you're coming from with a lot of this. I used to be a part of the whole left wing activism thing before I realized it was just a bunch of people who liked to get angry about things and saw any kind of workable compromise as surrender. And yeah, I can definitely see a con like this devolving into little more than preaching to the choir. I just think that they should be allowed to have it, and if it becomes a magnet for extremist segregationists at least they'll end up snubbing the other cons and leaving the more reasonable LGBT people behind.

 

[lord.jeff]

Did you get jumped and beaten down by a group of homosexuals?

Immaterial to this conversation. There is a difference between an actual victim & self imposed victimhood of an American.

you want to know what being a victim is here [link]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_violence_against_LGBT_people_in_the_United_States[/link]

I'll admit that argument is playing on emotions but there are real gay victims and you shouldn't ignore them just because it doesn't help prove your case. Discrimination is still strong in America, maybe not as strong as a lot would like you to believe but it's still there in stronger force then it should be nor should you ignore ligament claims of discrimination. These people just want a weekend to get away from that while doing something they love, games/con going and nothing is wrong with that.

 

[bastardofmelbourne]

I wanna reply to you and say this cos 1) you have hats in your avatar and 2) you seem like you'd understand more when I say:

This is not gay gamers having their own con. This is gay gamers having a gay-friendly con. A place where they can go a mingle and have fun without being mocked for what they say or do or wear. It is not exclusive for LGBT people, straight people can come join in too! It is about being more inclusive. Not less!

Shit. That'll teach me to post in threads without doing my research.

Herp a derp