On Gaymers and Cons

[Bamkills]

I see this as I see many topics of this type, and its a very simple concept. If the only outcome is people being happy, why the hell not? Us in the straight population lose nothing, and there is zero harm in them having their own con.

Thats it. Live and let live. Can you dig it?

 

[tyriless]

So does this mean we can have our men only clubs back?

Last I checked, you could be totally be 100% hetero and still go to a gaymer con. . Straight men and women go with their friends to gay and lesbian bars all the time. Now the question is this, are you going to be comfortable with man on man PDA? Stuff like hugging and kissing? If not, the only thing that is stopping you from going is your own homophobia.

 

[Guestyman]

One ass shot doesn't a trend make, man.

Its not one ass shot mate, its actually pretty common place, for both genders. At any time in which someone enters a scene for the first time who is not just attractive, but is meant to be super attractive, the slow pan (which is the actual name of the technique) is used as cinematography short hand for; beware this character is being established as very attractive, just so you know.

but that its use is a way of illustrating easily one of the many ways in which Gaming culture is constructed with only straight men in mind.

yep, totally for men. Hey you know those games literally made for girls, those are made for men too. Hey, what about words with friends, oh yeah totally for men, only men know how to spell & have friends. Come off it mate, drop the hyperbolic bullshit. Neither gaming culture, nor the gaming industry is made specifically for men.

Gaming culture != every game ever made. Stop being disingenuous.

 

[Guestyman]

If you play a videogame with someone, they don't know your sexuality. Hell, if you don't use voice chat online they don't even know your gender.

However, if you play in such a competitive and immature environment such as XBL, people are going to call you bad words. It really doesn't matter what you are, they'll find some way to offend you and make it stick. The same way that people will say they slept with your mother last night, of course they fucking didn't, but people get defensive of their mothers and take offense. This person is trying to offend you, no matter what your sexuality. It just so happens "******" is a great way to cause offense.

SNIP

Take "bastard". Literally it means a child who's parents weren't married when they were conceived. This was bad back in the day when sex outside of marriage was considered a cardinal sin and the resulting bastards would be cursed. Nowadays, children outside of marriage are pretty commonplace, there's no longer the same social stigma attached to the concept. However "bastard" is still a general pejorative term and is still considered a pretty serious swear word. This is because people associate it now with offense rather than it's original meaning.

Same with "******", originally targeted towards gay people when homosexuality was not tolerated whatsoever, with the changing social climate and homosexuality becoming more and more accepted by society, it's losing it's impact as "gay = bad" and is instead being used because people associate it with offense.

****** is a great way to cause offence because it's *Offensive*! Jesus Christ is that really so hard to get? When you use ****** you are not using a synonym for "bad". You are using a synonym for homosexual. You are attacking something unchangeable about me in order to make me feel bad, or you are playing on the cultural bullshit attached to straight people in order to make them feel bad because you are implying that THEY ARE LIKE ME. What about that is unclear? "******" isn't a harmless generic insult, it is a targeted slur that is deliberately designed to make me and people like me feel bad SPECIFICALLY.

We don't live in a society where gay people aren't marginalised, and I find it laughable that you seem to think we do. The word hasn't lost its homosexual meaning and all your assertions to the contrary are just wrong. I'm sorry, but it's not an arguable point. It's a question of facts and you got the facts dead wrong

I won't even get into the history of the word, or that for most queer people it can be extremely triggering for them because they routinely might have heard it as they were getting *physically assaulted*. No, I won't get into any detail about that, because the bare facts that you are defending the use of a *highly* insulting word to insult people by saying they are like me and being like me is bad should be enough to make you feel deep shame. And you consistent lack of said shame says mountains about your character as a human being. Jesus Christ. You have gone beyond insulting, and beyond insensitive. I'm now actually angry with you and think less of you as a person.

What exactly is it that makes videogames to alienating to gays?

The slurs, the threats, and the utter lack of understanding or willingness to attempt it from people such as you. We don't want you to use that word. It is offensive. Your continued insistence that it is fine to use that word is one of the reasons why we've basically gone "Screw it, we'll have our own con."

 

[tyriless]

Now the question is this, are you going to be comfortable with man on man PDA? Stuff like hugging and kissing? If not, the only thing that is stopping you from going is your own homophobia.

Just FYI: Being uncomfortable seeing two guys making out is not homophobia, anymnore then being put off by seeing your parents suck face in public makes you bigoted against them.

Your right: being uncomfortable around same gender PDA is not homophobia. It's only homophobia when someone feels entitled to stop it when it is amoungst consensting adult.

 

[scw55]

I can't think what there is to discuss except for humans are very horrible people and are scared of other things that are not them.
There are the minority who aren't horrible and aren't scared of other things that are not them. Those people are called friends.

There does need to be one. The largest demographic for geek culture are white straight men. This means the panels discussed and the content will tend to appeal more to that demographic. Cons for other demographics are healthy because it means the panels can be different and can talk about different things. And don't worry. I highly doubt you'd be banned from the Con if you don't find the genitalia of your own gender aesthetically pleasing.

 

[tyriless]

Now the question is this, are you going to be comfortable with man on man PDA? Stuff like hugging and kissing? If not, the only thing that is stopping you from going is your own homophobia.

Just FYI: Being uncomfortable seeing two guys making out is not homophobia, anymnore then being put off by seeing your parents suck face in public makes you bigoted against them.

So does this mean we can have our men only clubs back?

Nope. Remember when Feminist said things like "we aren't going to take away your toys", right before taking away your toys? Yeah, they broke those toys, so you couldn't play with them anymore... Now there toys on the other hand, you aren't even allowed to look at.

I could see how you'd be mistaken in thinking that was some kind of double standard, but apparently thats because of patriarchy, or sexism, or some silly sound bite.

What toys are you talking about? Porn? Still in abundance. Men's enterainment ala strip clubs? Went to one a couple of years ago, and I bet they are still open. Mainstream entertainment? Spike TV is still on the air, last I checked. Is there stil mostly male protagonisst in every form of media? Yep, pretty much 90% (or more). Looks like you got yourself a strawman's arguement there.

Now here comes the part when you cite cherry-picked research or maybe an anecdote or two that will support your arguement abouts a well as inflatable raft could support the Titanic.

 

[bastardofmelbourne]

OT: I can understand why gay gamers would want to have their own convention, but a part of me really wishes it wasn't necessary.

Can't we all just get along?

 

[Andy of Comix Inc]

OT: I can understand why gay gamers would want to have their own convention, but a part of me really wishes it wasn't necessary.

Can't we all just get along?

I wanna reply to you and say this cos 1) you have hats in your avatar and 2) you seem like you'd understand more when I say:

This is not gay gamers having their own con. This is gay gamers having a gay-friendly con. A place where they can go a mingle and have fun without being mocked for what they say or do or wear. It is not exclusive for LGBT people, straight people can come join in too! It is about being more inclusive. Not less!

This isn't a situation so sexually charged that there's confusion when you mix people of different sexualities. This isn't a gay bar. This is just a convention, anyone can go wherever they want. It's just held under the pretenses that it's a little more all-inclusive (in particular to sexual preference minorities) than most gaming conventions. That's all. Really. I mean, in my town we have an LGBT-focused dance/club night sort of thing, but the ratio is still like 1:1 straight/gay people... it's an community thing to ensure that LGBT people who have felt uncomfortable elsewhere can come and feel much, much safer in their own skin. Y'see? It's not about setting up "you and me" barriers, it's about knocking down those barriers. If it wasn't, no-one'd show up!

This is the same nonsense we got when women complained that men were keeping them out of convention events, that it was some sort of boys club & then they turned around and created all female cliques like the Frag Dolls. So totally lame.

I wasn't going to try and change you mind. Meh. You, too - read what I wrote above and if you can come up against with an argument against that then I'll write you off. I'm sure you understand. This is not designed to cage out "the straights" any more than it is designed to cage in LGBT. Who the hell wants to be caged in? No-one. No-one but the perpetually horny would attend a gaming convention that is LGBT-only. What would be the bloody point in that? Especially when bisexuals are gonna show up. And transgenders. And lesbians (gay men looking to shag LOVE going to mingle in a convention hall filled with equally horny women, right?) ...no. That's not the kind of convention we're talking about. It is about being a safe place to be, not a No Straights Allowed pillow fort/treehouse.

 

[Xanex]

There's a list of the panels. That's what's different.

And none of those panels could be included in regular cons because of what? And yes I took a look at them. If you are looking for developers of give more thought to the "gaymer" as you state. Then wouldn't those panels better serve your cause at a established con where the industry already focuses?

 

[secretsantaone]

If you play a videogame with someone, they don't know your sexuality. Hell, if you don't use voice chat online they don't even know your gender.

However, if you play in such a competitive and immature environment such as XBL, people are going to call you bad words. It really doesn't matter what you are, they'll find some way to offend you and make it stick. The same way that people will say they slept with your mother last night, of course they fucking didn't, but people get defensive of their mothers and take offense. This person is trying to offend you, no matter what your sexuality. It just so happens "******" is a great way to cause offense.

SNIP

Take "bastard". Literally it means a child who's parents weren't married when they were conceived. This was bad back in the day when sex outside of marriage was considered a cardinal sin and the resulting bastards would be cursed. Nowadays, children outside of marriage are pretty commonplace, there's no longer the same social stigma attached to the concept. However "bastard" is still a general pejorative term and is still considered a pretty serious swear word. This is because people associate it now with offense rather than it's original meaning.

Same with "******", originally targeted towards gay people when homosexuality was not tolerated whatsoever, with the changing social climate and homosexuality becoming more and more accepted by society, it's losing it's impact as "gay = bad" and is instead being used because people associate it with offense.

****** is a great way to cause offence because it's *Offensive*! Jesus Christ is that really so hard to get? When you use ****** you are not using a synonym for "bad". You are using a synonym for homosexual. You are attacking something unchangeable about me in order to make me feel bad, or you are playing on the cultural bullshit attached to straight people in order to make them feel bad because you are implying that THEY ARE LIKE ME. What about that is unclear? "******" isn't a harmless generic insult, it is a targeted slur that is deliberately designed to make me and people like me feel bad SPECIFICALLY.

We don't live in a society where gay people aren't marginalised, and I find it laughable that you seem to think we do. The word hasn't lost its homosexual meaning and all your assertions to the contrary are just wrong. I'm sorry, but it's not an arguable point. It's a question of facts and you got the facts dead wrong

I won't even get into the history of the word, or that for most queer people it can be extremely triggering for them because they routinely might have heard it as they were getting *physically assaulted*. No, I won't get into any detail about that, because the bare facts that you are defending the use of a *highly* insulting word to insult people by saying they are like me and being like me is bad should be enough to make you feel deep shame. And you consistent lack of said shame says mountains about your character as a human being. Jesus Christ. You have gone beyond insulting, and beyond insensitive. I'm now actually angry with you and think less of you as a person.

What exactly is it that makes videogames to alienating to gays?

The slurs, the threats, and the utter lack of understanding or willingness to attempt it from people such as you. We don't want you to use that word. It is offensive. Your continued insistence that it is fine to use that word is one of the reasons why we've basically gone "Screw it, we'll have our own con."

You've taken all the justification and examples I gave and just said "no it's not". ****** does not just mean gay anymore, is it really that hard to understand? Louis CK does an entire skit about it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fcja4WFFzDw

I never said gays weren't marginalised, I said they were becoming less, thus meaning the word is gradually losing impact.

I also never said the word has stopped referring to homosexuals. I just said it can also be used as a general insult depending on the context. It's in a transitional period of gradually becoming the second meaning.

Really, you being offended doesn't mean that much to me because I know that I wasn't trying to be offensive. You can get offended about anything, it doesn't make you right.

If you can't deal with someone arguing an opposing viewpoint while backing it up with justifications and examples, without getting angry, then you're no better than an infant.

 

[SecondPrize]

Lot of replies along the lines of "It's not bigoted to just ask the question."
The question is only genuine if the person asking it is actually curious about why Gaymers would want this convention. Most of the time you see it it's just being used as an attempt to dismiss the idea of the thing.

 

[Xanex]

There's a list of the panels. That's what's different.

And none of those panels could be included in regular cons because of what? And yes I took a look at them. If you are looking for developers of give more thought to the "gaymer" as you state. Then wouldn't those panels better serve your cause at a established con where the industry already focuses?

They could but they wouldn't be the focus of the con and they probably couldn't get all of them at a regular con and if they did there'd probably just be outrage that they're taking over the con. What is so bad about having a con where LGBT issues in gaming is the main focus?

What is so bad about having a con where LGBT issues in gaming is the main focus?

Nothing.

But the problem comes in is the premises and excuses people are using to justify it's existence. Just on this thread alone there have been arguments like "becaue we are discriminated against in gaming community" or "because we can't have LGBT issuses brought up in normal cons". The holier than thou are, you will never understand us or suffer like us because you are not LGBT and finnaly "just because your a bigot" arguments do nothing to help and infact can start the rifts between the "gaymers" and the rest of the community.

 

[Guestyman]

You've taken all the justification and examples I gave and just said "no it's not". ****** does not just mean gay anymore, is it really that hard to understand? Louis CK does an entire skit about it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fcja4WFFzDw

I never said gays weren't marginalised, I said they were becoming less, thus meaning the word is gradually losing impact.

I also never said the word has stopped referring to homosexuals. I just said it can also be used as a general insult depending on the context. It's in a transitional period of gradually becoming the second meaning.

Really, you being offended doesn't mean that much to me because I know that I wasn't trying to be offensive. You can get offended about anything, it doesn't make you right.

If you can't deal with someone arguing an opposing viewpoint while backing it up with justifications and examples, without getting angry, then you're no better than an infant.

****** does mean gay. I'm sorry to have to contradict you again, but it does. I still get called ****** when I hold hands with a guy where other people can see. I still get called ****** by my cousin when he wants to tell me how disgusting he finds me for my attraction to men. I still get called ****** for being bi. The word has not changed meaning. I've now laid out 3 times for you the logical steps as to why ****** is an insult. You = ******, ****** = bad, therefore you = bad. That is what you're saying when you use ****** as an insult. You can't magically just skip that middle step just because you say you are. Getting insulted by the fact that you look at people calling me a ****** and me getting angry and decide it's the people levelling the homophobic slur that need defending isn't infantile. Getting angry because you are being insulting is not infantile. Disagreeing with you is not infantile.

And your intentions not to offend mean jack shit if you also don't look at what you're saying and if it causes needless hurt.

Does it hurt anyone for you to stop defending that word? No. Does it help anyone? IMMENSELY. I'm not angry at you because I think you're intending to be offensive. I'm angry at you because you can clearly see a situation where you can actually do some good in this world, you can make a measurable positive effect on the lives of those you come into contact with by DOING NOTHING, and instead you are choosing to expend time and energy... On what exactly? What do you gain by being able to throw "******" around willy nilly? What is the net benefit to you to keep hurting me and others like me like this? Why is this so fucking hard? Is your freedom to use whatever hateful slur you wish really worth alienating people like me like this?

Are we really worth so little in your eyes?

Because that's what you're saying. That's what we're offended by. Not that you're doing anything with the intent to offend, but that we appear to be worth SO FUCKING LITTLE to you that you can't even bring yourself to just do nothing here. To stop defending the slur.

It hurts us. It reminds us of every time we've been beaten and ostracised for our sexuality. ****** isn't changing it's meaning to us, because no matter how much YOU forget what we've been through and move on, we can't, because we're still living it.

I'm not being infantile. I'm being hurt.

You, specifically, by being as unthinking and uncaring as you are are hurting me.

I'm making an appeal to you on our common humanity, on our common love of gaming, on everything that makes us similar rather than everything that makes us different to just think on that for five seconds.

Please.

 

[Milanezi]

I will keep asking the question, and I think that both first and third panel have NOTHING to do with "monks and temples".

Point is: it's self-prejudice, I can't care less is a fellow gamer or whatever is gay, chinese, alien or whatnot. They're all the same, there's good people, and there's bad people, some people are just great to spend time with, others a royal pain in the ass. Those people come in all genders, sexual preferences, religious beliefs etc. I UNDERSTAND if the prejudice is still big enough that gays are compelled to have their own convention, that's neat, heck that's a stand and a beginning. But I fear that this "stand" becomes permanent, I ACKNOWLEDGE IGNORANCE on the subject of "homophobia in gaming 'community'", but at least here in Brazil, with my own buddies, I never felt anything like it, we only keep out of the game the "pain in the ass people", so, no reason for a segregate group. Though to be honest, no harm done, but I think that it only serves for further segregation (unless, as stated, there is a strong community against gays).

 

[rbstewart7263]

OT: I can understand why gay gamers would want to have their own convention, but a part of me really wishes it wasn't necessary.

Can't we all just get along?

I wanna reply to you and say this cos 1) you have hats in your avatar and 2) you seem like you'd understand more when I say:

This is not gay gamers having their own con. This is gay gamers having a gay-friendly con. A place where they can go a mingle and have fun without being mocked for what they say or do or wear. It is not exclusive for LGBT people, straight people can come join in too! It is about being more inclusive. Not less!

This isn't a situation so sexually charged that there's confusion when you mix people of different sexualities. This isn't a gay bar. This is just a convention, anyone can go wherever they want. It's just held under the pretenses that it's a little more all-inclusive (in particular to sexual preference minorities) than most gaming conventions. That's all. Really. I mean, in my town we have an LGBT-focused dance/club night sort of thing, but the ratio is still like 1:1 straight/gay people... it's an community thing to ensure that LGBT people who have felt uncomfortable elsewhere can come and feel much, much safer in their own skin. Y'see? It's not about setting up "you and me" barriers, it's about knocking down those barriers. If it wasn't, no-one'd show up!

This is the same nonsense we got when women complained that men were keeping them out of convention events, that it was some sort of boys club & then they turned around and created all female cliques like the Frag Dolls. So totally lame.

I wasn't going to try and change you mind. Meh. You, too - read what I wrote above and if you can come up against with an argument against that then I'll write you off. I'm sure you understand. This is not designed to cage out "the straights" any more than it is designed to cage in LGBT. Who the hell wants to be caged in? No-one. No-one but the perpetually horny would attend a gaming convention that is LGBT-only. What would be the bloody point in that? Especially when bisexuals are gonna show up. And transgenders. And lesbians (gay men looking to shag LOVE going to mingle in a convention hall filled with equally horny women, right?) ...no. That's not the kind of convention we're talking about. It is about being a safe place to be, not a No Straights Allowed pillow fort/treehouse.

gay friendly con does seem less hypocritical than" We need our own con because we dont want to be different." I accept this.


K legit question time from a straight guy and Id prefer my answer from a gay guy. How much homophobia is there at cons?

Im sorry but I dont buy that gay people are just being heckled left and right at nerd conventions. Im still a believer that its only a very small minority of codblops players that have given the greatly inclusive majority of us gamers and nerds a bad name. And that there is no deep seated epidemic.


But with enough stories of this or that happening I can be proven wrong.

 

[SNCommand]

Don't fully understand it, but hey, if people want to visit such an event I won't object

People can't complain now though if the mainstream gaming conventions loses what little sexual diversity it have

 

[secretsantaone]

You've taken all the justification and examples I gave and just said "no it's not". ****** does not just mean gay anymore, is it really that hard to understand? Louis CK does an entire skit about it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fcja4WFFzDw

I never said gays weren't marginalised, I said they were becoming less, thus meaning the word is gradually losing impact.

I also never said the word has stopped referring to homosexuals. I just said it can also be used as a general insult depending on the context. It's in a transitional period of gradually becoming the second meaning.

Really, you being offended doesn't mean that much to me because I know that I wasn't trying to be offensive. You can get offended about anything, it doesn't make you right.

If you can't deal with someone arguing an opposing viewpoint while backing it up with justifications and examples, without getting angry, then you're no better than an infant.

****** does mean gay. I'm sorry to have to contradict you again, but it does. I still get called ****** when I hold hands with a guy where other people can see. I still get called ****** by my cousin when he wants to tell me how disgusting he finds me for my attraction to men. I still get called ****** for being bi. The word has not changed meaning. I've now laid out 3 times for you the logical steps as to why ****** is an insult. You = ******, ****** = bad, therefore you = bad. That is what you're saying when you use ****** as an insult. You can't magically just skip that middle step just because you say you are. Getting insulted by the fact that you look at people calling me a ****** and me getting angry and decide it's the people levelling the homophobic slur that need defending isn't infantile. Getting angry because you are being insulting is not infantile. Disagreeing with you is not infantile.

And your intentions not to offend mean jack shit if you also don't look at what you're saying and if it causes needless hurt.

Does it hurt anyone for you to stop defending that word? No. Does it help anyone? IMMENSELY. I'm not angry at you because I think you're intending to be offensive. I'm angry at you because you can clearly see a situation where you can actually do some good in this world, you can make a measurable positive effect on the lives of those you come into contact with by DOING NOTHING, and instead you are choosing to expend time and energy... On what exactly? What do you gain by being able to throw "******" around willy nilly? What is the net benefit to you to keep hurting me and others like me like this? Why is this so fucking hard? Is your freedom to use whatever hateful slur you wish really worth alienating people like me like this?

Are we really worth so little in your eyes?

Because that's what you're saying. That's what we're offended by. Not that you're doing anything with the intent to offend, but that we appear to be worth SO FUCKING LITTLE to you that you can't even bring yourself to just do nothing here. To stop defending the slur.

It hurts us. It reminds us of every time we've been beaten and ostracised for our sexuality. ****** isn't changing it's meaning to us, because no matter how much YOU forget what we've been through and move on, we can't, because we're still living it.

I'm not being infantile. I'm being hurt.

You, specifically, by being as unthinking and uncaring as you are are hurting me.

I'm making an appeal to you on our common humanity, on our common love of gaming, on everything that makes us similar rather than everything that makes us different to just think on that for five seconds.

Please.

You do realise words can have multiple meanings depending on context right? You do understand this principal?

I haven't called you a ******, because in the context of you being gay it would be taken as a slur against you for being homosexual.

If a guy starts bitching about his girlfriend I'd call him a ******, not meaning he's gay, just that he's being a little *****. Context.

My rights do not end where your feelings begin. You being offended by me using the word ****** in a different context means absolutely nothing to me.

 

[Guestyman]

Now i know you wanted the opinion of someone gay, but unfortnately the view of many minorities is one of self imposed victimhood... An the primary triat of self imposed victims is how hyperbolic they are about there victimhood. I'm not saying that was likely to happen here, but its better off that someone fairly objective makes a statement.

It is laughable that, considering what you've posted so far, you consider yourself in any way objective.

K legit question time from a straight guy and Id prefer my answer from a gay guy. How much homophobia is there at cons?

More than enough. If I'm in a relationship with a guy I make a point of not taking him to cons with me nowadays. It can range from stares and whispers, to outright being called a fag to my face. I even once got yelled at for sitting with my boyfriend at the in-con cafe with my boyfriend and having my arm around his shoulders in an obviously affectionate way. This woman didn't like me doing that where her children could see it, you see.

My rights do not end where your feelings begin. You being offended by me using the word ****** in a different context means absolutely nothing to me.

I am not disputing your right to say it. You have every right to say it. I'm saying that if you *do* say it the consequence is that you will be needlessly hurting people for no good reason. I am saying that while I have no ability to infringe on your rights to say whatever hateful and hurtful things you wish, and indeed I have no desire to infringe on your rights, I wish to influence your decisions. I have informed you multiple times now that to use that word is offensive and hurtful to many people. You can no longer claim ignorance of this fact if you do so. I now consider it a moral failing on your part if you do and judge you accordingly.

Notice how I didn't infringe on your rights there? Or before? I made an impassioned plea to your humanity instead to stop being needlessly hurtful. I'm not censoring you, I'm asking you to make the decision to censor yourself. You are of course, free to ignore that. Just as I am free to adjust my opinion of you accordingly. Freedom of speech does not mean freedom from people thinking you're a dick if you make *bad* speech.

 

[itsthesheppy]

The fact that a comic that basically says "Don't be a homophobic dick" spawned 17 pages of people struggling with their own latent bigotry only goes to show how much further we have to go before we really can claim to be an enlightened society. It's a little depressing, but at least the zeitgeist is shifting in the right direction. More and more, the poor sods who just don't get it are being left behind.