On Geek Privilege

[Elf Defiler Korgan]

Spoiler

Look, Bob. I was never bullied in high-school, I've always had friends and aside from moving into the world of 'adult friends' i.e. people you like to see but can only see occasionally because of work/relationships/home/obligations, I've never really felt that much of an outsider. In fact it's only in the last couple of years it's really really hit me there are people who DON'T share my admittedly middle class set of experiences.

I don't have that idea that i am some-how an outsider. I've always had like-minded people to talk to. These ideas of the "Shared Geek experience", "Persecution mindset" and "Nice guy culture" are pretty alien to me. To put it differently; nerds have always been accepted for a large sub-section of my generation. We didn't feel like nerds because it was never really brought up.

Maybe it's more of an extension of not having the same cultural touch-stones as the US does (or as horrible state school system). There is a very British tradition of eccentricity and the lording of the maverick that dates back to the Victorians. Maybe it's also a extension of the traditional class system where a good education and intelligence were seen as evidence of being of higher status or that technically minded people have been lauded as an extension of British greatness for decades.

Hell the 1980s saw a massive boom in the bedroom coder and cheap personal, programmable computers. Even at that time being 15 and coding a videogame was actually something pretty cool to do. British culture just isn't as afraid of intelligence as classic American culture was.

Yeah I certainly agree (Australian here) with what you are saying. I copped a bit of flak in my youth for my geekiness and I am in Bob's cohort, but it seems to me that things have really changed. Geek is mainstream, geek isn't always white male anymore. Geek and nerd culture is very Asian now and woman are heavily into it (perhaps as an escape from the banal cultures or subcultures). I tutor a range of high school students, and these kids are lucky, geekiness doesn't lead to much in the way of bullying, it is normalised. Kids play video games, gone are the days of weird kids play video games. I have been very happy with what I have been seeing across the geek countries (anime, dnd, board game, pc, ps) and it isn't just young white males playing anymore. The US, is in many ways messed up, and geeks copped a lot of grief there, for in a country supposedly committed to individualism, the individuals have always taken a thorough beating for being individualistic.

Other places are a geek paradise. I am in Melbourne, and it is a fantastic time to be a geek (wish I didn't have to work so much). My rpg group is mostly female, I game online and locally with people of many different races and now, with geeks of many different ages (some are getting into their 40s and 50s now, but a new wave of geek 15 year olds are also here contributing). The geek games then become about having fun and sharing interests. There isn't much time for early Geek American culture of dudes being dicks to everyone different.

Honestly, chatting to a group of young nerds (of quite varied racial backgrounds--one is from Nepal) about what they have been playing and making some suggestions they try the old classics or the less mainstream games of the latest indie boom, makes me tremendously happy. Things are looking up Bob, not down.

I think what Bob is confusing here is that there isn't just one "Unified Geek experience", he's always talking about the newly fractured nature of modern culture but most pundits are more behind the curve than they think, it's been this way for a good while. Culture has been fractured and geek hasn't really been an issue for an entire generation. I've seen this developing for over a decade.

So he needs to realize that not all 'Geeks' are bitter, male and heterosexual or self identify as 'Geeks' (i think the label has become a bit kitsch). I don't consider myself really part of nerd 'culture', i don't define myself as a 'gamer' and i especially don't buy into 'Gamer culture'. In fact the place i sometimes feel most an outsider is within places that embrace the concepts that Bob seems to think are universal.

As a community i think many of us would be VERY quick to distance ourselves from the more 'Euphoric' side of things if you know what i mean.

Yeah I agree. I know more that identify as gamers (and the many fragments of that identity) or roleplayers rather than geek. I hear you have a problem with that (and that is entirely fine on my end, I'm not one for reductive labels) Geek is so American many non Americans don't go for it.

Gamer culture has promise, so I hope you won't throw it away so quickly. The indie revival is a good time to be a gamer (and game widely).

Sorry Bob, but you are kind of behind the times and the great fracturing and neo-inclusiveness. Xbox live isn't all there is to nerdness, if nerd even works as a label anymore.

 

[Floppertje]

Hm.. what privilege have I gotten out of geekness...

Oh that's right NONE, I can't recall a single event in my entire life where being a geek equaled getting privilege.

Sorry Bob but sometimes its like you're from an alternate dimension.

I feel the same. I have GOT nothing from being a nerd. Nothing at all! Its mindbogglingly how this "geek privilege" have become. Maybe it is because I'm from Europa and never get shit for being a guy who love geeky things. This is just stupid.

How about movies, videogames and tv bending over backwards to cater to your whims? Those are multi-billion dollar industries and they really desperately want YOU to like them. How is that not a privilege? You get your own conventions and stores where being a geek is a status symbol and you still think you get 'nothing'?
You're not helping reach a solution here, you are the problem.

 

[Eamar]

Snip

It's times like this when I wish there was an upvote system on the Escapist. Couldn't have put it better myself. I don't have experience of the race element, but you described my experience of being a teenage girl trying to get into geek culture perfectly.

This bit in particular needs to be repeated loudly and often:

So when I see people using the bulling they received for being a geek as an excuse I have no sympathy. None. It gives them no excuse to be bullies themselves. I'm not the girl who ignored you in school so why should I have to deal with the resentment?

 

[PuckFuppet]

Saying this again, I've said it a few times in these kinds of discussions. I don't see why either A: an individual should be grouped/feel they are grouped with a whole range of other individuals because they happen to share hobbies/interests and B: why the actions of any individuals within that group should then be attributed as the fault of that entire group, regardless of whether people seen in that group actually choose to associate themselves with that group.

@Eamar; Then while the people you were trying to hang around with were geeks, and may have identified as such, they were also bigoted and ignorant. Those people exist everywhere in life, they're actually the most common type of people.

 

[Simonism451]

Hm.. what privilege have I gotten out of geekness...

Oh that's right NONE, I can't recall a single event in my entire life where being a geek equaled getting privilege.

Sorry Bob but sometimes its like you're from an alternate dimension.

Maybe you could try reading the actual article, though I don't know whether that's usual behaviour in your home dimension (what other differences might there be? I'd wager that Ronald Reagan's face is on three-dollar bills and french fries are called Belgos). It's about how certain parts of Nerd-culture seem to be all too willing to give inexcusable behaviour a pass (or at least go to greater lengths than usual to put it into "perspective") as long as it is perpetrated by members of their own with the (by itself pretty disgusting) justification that they can't possibly be the perpetrators of discrimination, since they know what it feels like and therefore automatically know better than to discriminate.

Edit: Also, just because you personally haven't made use of a privilege, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

 

[Darmani]

The fact that the 'geek world' still almost collectively hyperventilates whenever any sort of female or feminist issues raised in relation to geek culture demonstrates why such an article is relevant and, frankly, needed. It's not just about the outright loonies harassing Anita Sarkeesian - it's about all the ones who spread the rumours, and went out of their way to discredit her in an ad hominem fashion; it's about the fact that for some reason there's a huge number of geeks who feel threatened when people want to take away or merely criticise their 'right' to ogle booth babes; it's the diseased and viral notions of the nice guy/friend zone that plague these communities and fora; it's the fact that women criticising geek culture for being male-centric are made out to desire nothing more than the complete reformation of geek culture into a Sex and the City knockoff where Samantha wears glasses; it's the peddling of sexist stereotypes as memes and punchlines unto themselves. And all of that is just a part of when dealing with geek culture's attitudes toward women. The culture's even more prohibitive towards the concerns of other minorities, primarily for the reason that they're not even able to get on the wider agenda most of the time.

No THIS is my problem. The Nice guy friend zone thing is a thing. SO is the criticism against it. You wanna get laid go get laid don't pine and resent some girl as an object you consider a friend who's turned you down. Find someone who shares your interests and aims doing otherwise is unproductive and creepy (note the exemplary ubernerd Urkel DID get a girlfriend... or two aside from Laura later)
And I get the backlash with women told/forced to settle and insulted for their badboy sex fantasies... except they ARE dumb same as the badgirl and the manic pixie dream girl and trust me that gets NO lack of criticism. And holy hell are they not without effects (Sephiroth, just Sephiroth, also fujoshi baiting in Shonen manga)

The assumption the women are here now (that in and of itself is a STUPID assessment) so time to change up so we accomodate what they want or we're just retrograde IS exposure to the bad old high school days and a sign this isn't equality this is takeover.
Feminists keep claiming amongst themselvestheir thing is about "opening dialogues to improve equality in relation to gender" Reactions like the above, Anita Sarkeesian, reporting harassment after the con to your followers from the buffer of a weblog as the fault of the con is NOT an opening to a discussion its a move to dominate one and gain social power to crobar your will.
Naturally this is apparent and male nerds hate it often due to the fact their manhood, morals, adulthood, and so on are questioned as a whole during the process. Plus that whole they are often not only not guilty of any wrongdoing but doing the right thing.
Don't want to be reacted to hostily? Don't be hostile.

Oh wait its 20xx and anger is the new social justice stance? Great, see where that gets you when there is NO relationship investment and you seek dominance and not parity. And stop it with the accusation just being in nerd presence is like rape risk while walking around in lingerie, selling spanking paddles, and wearing "glomp me" signs. Stop acting like cosplay is this amazing thing inherent to your right as a woman and any foul comments to it sexism. Report assholes to security and move the fuck on with your life. Stop assuming the world is yours to command by default as you feel you are attractive and offended. Or at least accept that such female people being seen to for their well being, needs, and satisfaction is not some rare alien part of the culture, mainstream or geek, but rather integrated and that's why the "raging" social justice warrior schtick is even tolerated from the "oppressed" women who suffer in nerd spaces.
We are TRAINED to run to the defence of woman who cries and ostracize the offender. Especially if that offender is already unattractive or disliked or you include the implicit moral approval or further association as reward for compliance.

But no in the feminist criticism of the world Scotsboro doesn't happen as part of a nasty trend because then rape apologists, amirite. All sexual harassment is so critical it must be stamped out (like overhearing a dongle joke in a private conversation). That all violence even tangential to women equal domestic abuse (Xbox One demo of Killer Instinct look LOOK at the assault of that controller on the female gamer's hands. And that man trash talking her as she kinda wishes this embarassing performance was over. It LOOKS like they are a man and a woman playing a game one winning the other losing... badly but he's really just totally sexually assaulting her. Oh she's winning the next round ... whatevs) Men who don't have parity with others and denied male privilege over women (often considered to be equal or only able to support them by said woman's own judgement, funny that) until career success or otherwise in their twenties (meaning they had to prove themselves to be respected as thought default, just as a part of growing up YES and so not that same as actual inherent prejudice and discrimination of women, homosexuals, and other-you-don't-graduate-college-or-turn-26-and-suddenly-this-is-not-a-distinguishable-trait-anymore-groups but it is comparable use that as an in) are in on The Patriarchy. Yep we just met this morning across from the Gay Agenda, atop -naturally - the Feminist Hive Mind, and are planning a meeting with all the termforBlackMenwhoembodythedifferentpartsofculture to trade for more rap songs that make women degrade themselves (Operation Princess no longer working thanks to the oh-so-original Merida with her frizzy hair and freckles who is defying her betrothal at the last minute) in turn for Assualting the TerroristIslam but we're afraid our ZionistOverlords will object. Patriarchy is like center of gravity in truth, a gross simplification not fit for engineering work and like opening with "White People" at a racial tolerance mixer. Your vagina has been an advantage as much as a target and men as a whole are not out to just get you or have plotted your downfall. Women at least joined in. So if I NEVER hear the word brought up outside of Gender Studies it will be too soon.

The conversation isn't going to happen because it isn't one Its a demand to fulfill a request from women with the inherent confidence the only negotiation that has to happen is they requested it and they are right to do so. So YES, anyone is going to exercise their right to shut it down as not only does it not affect them but they are, get this, acting entitled with their Female Privilege, know this will say this in their space and lie about it when confronted.


All that said. There ARE ways to open a discussion but holy hell it doesn't involve reacting to things as if actually harmful. OR morally condemning those you want to see to your needs (never works with anyone I want things from why does SJWs expect different? Their inherent moral superiority they lose it even if it were true)

One way is the article linked to. I don't know if gay culture as a whole is like this or just the specific slice the man interacted with. but he shared his reflections, specific experiences, noted it as a trend, pointed out its causes, and asked the right questions. I'm more inclined to consider how women are treated around me AND how to handle harassment I see happening in my vicinity and to what degree by his article than the escapist ones.

 

[Darmani]

When I first started to interact with other geeks on the internet back in middle school things were a lot different. It didn't take long for me to find out that I shouldn't mention my gender or race at all. So long as people on mainstream sites thought that I was a dude I wouldn't get random racist or sexist comments sent my way. Things have gotten a lot better since then, but back then I just didn't feel like dealing with it. I already had to deal with being an outsider because of my hobbies in real life. I wasn't "Black" enough because I liked geeky things. I was too "Black" because I have a darker skin tone. And since my current figure hadn't developed yet I wasn't "feminine" enough. So when I see people using the bulling they received for being a geek as an excuse I have no sympathy. None. It gives them no excuse to be bullies themselves. I'm not the girl who ignored you in school so why should I have to deal with the resentment?

I found majority female spaces on the internet and was able to enjoy my hobbies without having to hide who I am. I stuck to places like Livejournal and Fanfiction.net. A lot of the girls I met had similar experiences as mine and didn't feel that it was worth bothering with mainstream spaces. It's probably why geeky spaces are still self segregated now. Being older has helped me navigate male dominated spaces better, and overall a lot of the overt sexism and racism has been weeded out. But back then I simply needed escapism, a space where I wouldn't be judged for superficial shit. And mainstream geekdom was, and in some ways still, not that space.

Hmm Ya know I never here this part. I guess I was wrong about the demands of women "just" showing up. I still feel put out that it seems all social justice begins and ends with a cry of offense and then expected obedience to the offended princess.
If it means anything I don't resent most gamer girls or girl geeks I meet. I have been known to mistreat them but mainly because I seem unable to tune "I am asking a request" as being something they are actually asking or truly demanding.
Also the social scene in geek spaces increases with female participation but that just means there is more social dynamics, add in the apprehension/fear you get ... well secrets and drama. Surely you noted *that* on fanfiction,net and livejournal

AS I said about, mixing the new crowd with the old guard was going to be rough, but we took the wrong path to make it happen. Instead of building bridges and trying to mend some very broken people, things ran very quickly to vilification, which has confused the crap out of me because I don't see how making someone the bad guy is going to make them more friendly to you. Hell, the attitude of "your wants, your feelings, your concerns: all are worthless in the name of my wants and feelings" is very dehumanizing, only entrenching the anger already there. I've reached the point where, I can say it isn't vengeance for childhood. I'm legitimately mad at people that act like my emotions are there to please them, and am now starting to wonder if this is all still about the bullies versus the bullied, but people just expecting certain behaviors, attitudes and values from people (regardless of how they actually act) on one side, and people that resent having such things dictated to them (with no consideration to themselves) on the other.

As others has said "We" didn't win we got picked up and a lot of us are worried when we're going to be dropped. Moreover anyone feeling a little backstabbed by the webartists that practically build cults, hit some level of actually success and then their output becomes "why you suck so very much my fans" I think it happens more than with 90s bands and the accusation of sellout.
Still kinda wish I'd said this.

 

[Darmani]

[When has a video game industry told you you are not allowed to buy a game, or has refused to try and make games that cater to all sorts of individuals?

oooh.... bad example the current dominance of the angry older daddy (who is TOTALLY not an empty vessel for the aging developer and consumer) with dark hair and past (man all that bittorrent I did, and failed marriage...) is a valid complaint. As are the struggles for more PoCs with actual character and exploration of ethnicity. And frankly I feel vaguely off for Muslim gamers and I

hold on

(gets his thicker rim glasses and adjusts them)

"Hated Islam before 9/11 made it profitable"

I mean c'mon the only time someone kinda sort looking like you and practicing your faith is as background for bullets. I got ticked asa christian for the prevelance of the Evil Church versus the four pure nature spirits with no institutional history or dark past. And that was naaloguous in fantasy! We just shoot Middle easterners as terrorists and soldiers and don't even allow them to be masterminds and exercise all the complex history involved.

Then there is Remember Me ('Love interest what are you gay?')

Bioshock Infinite

Now there seems to be pendulum swing the other way and MARKETTING to women has been better in the AAA industry. But in terms of homogenity I'm not going to knock complaints there, much. ITs not like, with all of its MANY options, Alpha Protocol lets you play as a woman.

 

[Floppertje]

Hm.. what privilege have I gotten out of geekness...

Oh that's right NONE, I can't recall a single event in my entire life where being a geek equaled getting privilege.

Sorry Bob but sometimes its like you're from an alternate dimension.

I feel the same. I have GOT nothing from being a nerd. Nothing at all! Its mindbogglingly how this "geek privilege" have become. Maybe it is because I'm from Europa and never get shit for being a guy who love geeky things. This is just stupid.

How about movies, videogames and tv bending over backwards to cater to your whims? Those are multi-billion dollar industries and they really desperately want YOU to like them. How is that not a privilege? You get your own conventions and stores where being a geek is a status symbol and you still think you get 'nothing'?
You're not helping reach a solution here, you are the problem.

I'm sorry, when is the last time you have seen someone denied a movie ticket into a geeky movie? When has a video game industry told you you are not allowed to buy a game, or has refused to try and make games that cater to all sorts of individuals? When has a store or convention ever denied someone entry for not being geek enough?

There's a little problem with you insanely trollish post, and your logic. We don't own these places, we simply go to them, and everyone else in the world, has had the exact same right.

There isn't some magic entry into the geek culture, it just requires you walk in.

Just like women aren't barred from gay bars, but apparently they're looked down on (if the author of that article is right).
No, people aren't being actively forbidden from taking part, but if it wasn't for us, those things would not get made.
It's not about anyone's right to partake or not, it's about how they get treated when they do.

Edit: and as for your 'when has a video game industry refused to try to make games that cater to all sorts of individuals?'... are you serious? how about 'always'? when was the last time a AAA game was made to appeal to muslims or african americans? when was the last time the Russians were undeniably the good guys? When did you last see a depiction of Africa where it wasn't a war-torn hellhole? Games are made for middle class white dudes because they're the ones with the disposable income.

 

[Gorrath]

Bob witres;

"To put it bluntly, for however much the very real problems of schoolyard bullying and social stigmatization have been part of the "geek experience" over the years, the temptation for self-identified geeks, nerds etc to claim an exaggerated sympathy for the same (whereby the archetypal 'bullied nerd' is afforded the privilege of presumed innate goodness) too often prevailed; particularly when abated by a popular culture that so loves it's 'underdogs.' "

And if you tried this claim with any other marginalized group, you'd get called any number of things in response; racist, bigot and misogynist come to mind. See, if the first thing we do is pitch the real problem of bullying out the window, the rest of your points are fine. But that would be the case if you tossed the grievances of any group out the window, wouldn't it?

In order for this tactic to be valid, you'd have to show that, somehow, a nerd getting his ribs kicked in by a dozen people after school hurts less than if it happens to a black kid because he's black. You have to show that the deafening silence from the authorities, or sometimes even encouragement from them (principals, teachers, parents, police) is somehow less damaging to the individual being beaten than if it was happening because of his race.

We can sit and argue degrees here, (I was never in danger of being hanged from a tree for being a geek, but then at that time neither was anyone of color either where I lived), but that is a pointless exercise. Not all abuse of people is equal, but when you have a level of harassment so bad that people within the group feel that the best way out is suicide, or worse, filling their school full of bullets, you don't get to pretend the abuses aren't worthy of whatever arbitrary measuring stick we come up with.

Much as you went through the article you read and replaced every instance of "Gay" ect, with something nerdy, go through and replace every instance of "nerd/geek" in this article with "black/minority/woman" and see how you feel about it. Just try replacing "nerd" and "exaggerated sympathy" in the above section with "Black" and "race card" and see how many people applaud what you're saying.

While I agree that the abuses of self identified nerds do not in any way excuse the same bullying behavior by them against others, how often do we see bullying by other groups with "real" grievances be completely overlooked or even defended because of "historical context"? The whole "Nerd=victim=good guy" is pervasive in every single marginalized group, and yet, if you use the term "professional victim" when referring to a female who is also using her minority status for leverage and bullying, the people who call her out on it get painted as misogynists.

All in all, I could largely agree with the article. I totally get behind the idea that being bullied isn't a good reason to be a bully. I absolutely agree that groups need to help police themselves, even if that simply comes in the form of calling out bullies when we see them. I'm behind you 100% when you say that being part of a marginalized group gives a certain set of privileges (some of which were even codified in law in places), and that people who belong to "victim groups" need to be aware of their own privilege. But every single one of these points falls dead flat the moment you try and make up an excuse why all of these points should apply to geeks/nerds, and yet somehow every other "victim group" gets a pass.

 

[Floppertje]

snip

Your line is quite hilarious for a few reasons. In part because Russians do play games where Russians are the bad guys. Specifically Pandering to a group one way or another is not exclusion, it is lacking portrayal.

Since when are all games portraying Africa.

What you are requesting is specific Pandering. You do not need to specifically pander to any group or groups to make something that appeals to all groups. Quick tell me what Legos cater to? Which specific group are Lego's catering to? Go on, give me an answer.

Now tell me who Resident Evil Caters to? Go on give me a definitive answer.

Your examples are we are excluding people because we are not specifically pandering. Now what if every game had say... Phantasy Star Level Character customization? For every game? Would I then be pandering to everyone?

Basically, for games to be all inclusive, a character customization engine, on par or better then the Phantasy Stars Usual engines has to be in every single game. A story written assuming your ethnicity, gender, and sexual preference in every game as well as potentially the color of your skin, otherwise it is not inclusive enough.

Saying games must pander to specific audiences otherwise certain audiences are being excluded is false. I guarantee you African Americans play video games, I assure you Muslims play Video Games, I guarantee you Russians play Video Games, in fact I guarantee you any group you can come up with has members playing video games. Video game companies make games that cater to all sorts of people, not just one group.

Catering to all sorts of people, does not mean pandering to an individual group, nor does not pandering to an individual group, mean you are excluding others.

Tell me when is the last video game you played through, shouted hateful messages about any specific group, and I mean hateful hateful messages, not just, they are the enemy because we are at war messages, truly hateful messages towards any group or ethnicity.

As for companies denying those products to minors or minorities. You are wrong. Companies would sell to anyone and everyone. Government, and individual retailers deny products to others. Companies only comply with laws, they are not themselves excluding those people.

Did you not read my post at all? Alright, I'll repeat myself.

It's not about anybody being BARRED from partaking, it is about how they get treated when they do.

You couldn't have missed the point more if you were sitting blindfolded on a mechanical bull.
Just because something is made to appeal to US doesn't mean nobody else will play it. Of course every group has people in it who play games and of course they play games where their group is portrayed as the bad guys, what other choice do they have? It's either play what you can get or don't play at all.
I'm not saying all games should try to please everyone, that's impossible. I'm saying that almost every games tries to please the same demographic group. Most games are made to appeal to middle class straight white guys.
as for your other questions: Lego caters to boys aged 6-12. That doesn't mean nobody else buys it, but that's who it's chiefly made for.
Resident evil is made for the same people other games are made for: middle class white guys. You spent the fifth game shooting up Africans as a muscular all-american stereotype, do you really think they sat around and said 'okay, let's think about how we can make this game more attractive to African Americans'?

I don't shout hateful messages at specific groups because I'm not hateful and because it would be rather pointless to shout at a screen. You seem to be under the assumption that 'not made for' equals 'demonizes'.

Also, I never claimed companies are refusing to sell products to minorities, stop putting words in my mouth.

 

[Techno Squidgy]

Why are people so bad at being decent human beings? I don't get it. Is it really so hard to smile, be pleasant, not fuck people over for your own gain?

We have the technology, the creativity, the ingenuity, the methods and the means to ensure everyone on this planet has the things they need to live comfortably and well. However, the resource distribution is just a teeny-weeny, itsy-bitsy, tiny bit absolutely-and-completely-fucking-fucked. I've got to say, I really like the ideas of pure communism and Anarchism, but at the same time, until everyone stops being a dick, that's just not going to work, so we're stuck in this stupid system.

 

[Gorrath]

Why are people so bad at being decent human beings? I don't get it. Is it really so hard to smile, be pleasant, not fuck people over for your own gain?

We have the technology, the creativity, the ingenuity, the methods and the means to ensure everyone on this planet has the things they need to live comfortably and well. However, the resource distribution is just a teeny-weeny, itsy-bitsy, tiny bit absolutely-and-completely-fucking-fucked. I've got to say, I really like the ideas of pure communism and Anarchism, but at the same time, until everyone stops being a dick, that's just not going to work, so we're stuck in this stupid system.

We evolved to be tribalistic, giving us some very conflicting urges when it comes to helping/hurting others. ON the one hand we are genetically predisposed to work together in groups for the good of all in the group. On the other hand we are genetically predisposed to fear/hate other tribes because they might try to take our stuff, and because we really like the stuff they have. This conflict between two natures means that the best way to attack the problem is through education, showing how every man and woman is part of one big tribe. This will only work until we discover alien life though. /shakes fist at the stars

 

[Moth_Monk]

Geek culture and geek community. The whole idea amuses me because the "culture" is basically founded on milking kids' money in exchange for trinkets.

 

[Gorrath]

Geek culture and geek community. The whole idea amuses me because the "culture" is basically founded on milking kids' money in exchange for trinkets.

You could make a similar argument about "hip hop" culture, but I'm not sure what's really wrong with that. You wrote that it amuses you, but without a greater context I'm not sure if that's meant to be derisive or not. If people find common ground and grow friendships and whole communities out of a shared love for trinkets, so what? If you didn't intend that to be derisive and you are just amused by the idea, please excuse me contesting you on this.

 

[Floppertje]

snip

I didn't miss your point but you have seemingly missed mine. To exclude someone from being there means to exclude someone from being there. Yes it is about how you treat people, let me ask again, has any video game you played, actually displayed anything that remotely looks like it is treating a specific group, or gender, or non geek in a way deemed wrong and or exclusionary.

But more to what you are missing, is that the "geek culture" does not consist of only straight white men, contrary to some of what was written in that article and encompasses a huge number of diversified individuals. Meaning the "Geek club" is not an "No Girls allowed Club" Nor are geeks chastising anyone who goes to a place considered "geek" in nature who does not look geek enough. These people are not being treated differently, and that's the faulty premise of this entire article.

Because it's happened, we as a "geek culture" are permitting it, or even defending it. Except we don't.

Just because a female character with strong portrayal is not a game does not mean that the game is not trying to treat people equally. You can't and often shouldn't make a character for everyone. That does not mean that the female player, or Russian Player, or hell let's say German Player since Nazi's are a common enemy, are being treated badly once they get there, they in fact are not.

Here let me give you a classic example. Nintendo makes kids games. Nintendo is for kids! Pokemon is kiddie! Heard any of these before? This is hot geek on geek debate right there. Happens all the time.

But is Nintendo treating it's older audience poorly just because they primarily aim their games at kids? Does the Nintendo game playing community keep older players out of "Their culture" because they are older, and it's meant for kids primarily?

No.

If the argument is about how people are treated in the geek culture when they are an "outsider" then there is no argument. There might have been one back in the day, but these days, you walk through the doors of Sakuracon, and you are a geek. You walk into a video game store, and you are a geek. You are greeted, you are helped if you need it, and they will help you find the things you want regardless of what you may or may not look like.

Because Geeks can be, and are anyone, Geeks don't try and outcast people.

The example of the Gay bar was the premise of the start of Bob's topic. Please, enlighten me, where have you ever gone, where any specific person was actually treated they was described in the Gay bar example in the "geek scene".

If truly we Geeks are treating people like outcasts, you could site some recent example where that happened on a scale that felt exclusionary.

Geeks may have at one time tried to exclude people from their culture, but I bet you people would be hard pressed to find that we are actually that exclusionary these days if at all.

So you didn't miss my point but you're being intentionally obtuse?
YES! Military shooters use muslims as bullet spunges, women are mostly used for titilation (mass effect, a game praised for it's characterization can't stop zooming in on miranda's ass), Call of Juarez: the Cartel has a mission where you shoot black gang members and you get an achievement for doing so. I call that wrong.

Yes, geek culture DOES consist mainly of straight white men. Do you think the whole 'fake geek girl' thing exists because girls really are faking their geekyness so they can get in your pants or maybe guys are just a little insecure about losing their popularity throne in the geek kingdom?

You claim that we aren't permitting or defending it, but in the same post you deny the problem exists! that's the definition of permitting it.

No, you shouldn't make a character for everyone, but yes, women, russians and germans ARE treated badly. you must not spend a lot of time on the internet. Are you honestly telling me you never heard anyone call a german player a nazi just because they're german? never heard a racial slur on xbox live?

As for your question on where people are treated badly, how about conventions? How about the internet? women are supposed to be either pretty and therefor eyecandy for the guys, or they're supposed to not be there, and god forbid someone cosplays as someone more attractive than them...
And how about those female writers who get insulted and threatened because they're women who wrote something for a videogame?

You are trying to deny a problem that very definitely DOES exist, which brings me back to my original point: you are certainly part of the problem.

 

[Robert Marrs]

I am so sick of hearing about privilege this and privilege that. What is the point of this? Why can't people just enjoy what they do and have a good time without someone trying to label and categorize them? I play video games and I work with computers but that does not make me a part of any culture. I am just an individual enjoying hobbies and I can't remember the last time somebody gave me shit for it. I just don't see the purpose of this article. I understand what the writer wanted the purpose to be I just don't see why the writer cares about something as stupid as this.


edit: I also feel like this needs to be said. Freedom is biased towards true equality. When I say true equality I mean in the sense that the privilege and oppression obsessed mean it. Everyone is treated the same, has the same (or no) privileges, and everyone has equal outcomes which stifles the freedom of others to achieve more and enjoy life more when they do. Pseudo-marxist freedom seems to be what these people want. Real freedom does mean that some people end up getting treated differently, end up making different salaries and yes even have certain privileges that other people don't get. Some of them you will get just because of your skin color or gender but its important to remember just about everyone has some form of privilege AND THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT!

 

[Floppertje]

Resident evil is made for the same people other games are made for: middle class white guys. You spent the fifth game shooting up Africans as a muscular all-american stereotype, do you really think they sat around and said 'okay, let's think about how we can make this game more attractive to African Americans'?

Yeaaahh no... Resident Evil is made in Japan, by Japanese company Capcom to be enjoyed mostly by the Japanese (though they know it as the generic "Biohazard"). If it were made for the Western market it wouldn't still have the retarded tanky controls or such a wildly racist depiction of black people (you are totally right there).

I know capcom is japanese, but I think they're too international to conclude that they automatically make games for japanese audiences. Or are the Japanese more interested in American stereotypes than in Japanese characters? That's not rethorical, I'm genuinely wondering.
Perhaps it's a perception thing; most games are about white people, that's what sells so that's what they keep making.

 

[Gorrath]

I am so sick of hearing about privilege this and privilege that. What is the point of this? Why can't people just enjoy what they do and have a good time without someone trying to label and categorize them? I play video games and I work with computers but that does not make me a part of any culture. I am just an individual enjoying hobbies and I can't remember the last time somebody gave me shit for it. I just don't see the purpose of this article. I understand what the writer wanted the purpose to be I just don't see why the writer cares about something as stupid as this.


edit: I also feel like this needs to be said. Freedom is biased towards true equality. When I say true equality I mean in the sense that the privilege and oppression obsessed mean it. Everyone is treated the same, has the same (or no) privileges, and everyone has equal outcomes which stifles the freedom of others to achieve more and enjoy life more when they do. Pseudo-marxist freedom seems to be what these people want. Real freedom does mean that some people end up getting treated differently, end up making different salaries and yes even have certain privileges that other people don't get. Some of them you will get just because of your skin color or gender but its important to remember just about everyone has some form of privilege AND THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT!

Privilege is an important concept that has been misused, misappropriated and beaten into the ground. We should still talk about it and analyze it even if some people are totally ignorant of its proper application (like the Bechtel Test) or who misappropriate the idea to excuse their own hatred and bigotry.

On your edit, equality and freedom are on opposite sides. The more free we are to oppress, the more likely oppression will occur. On the other hand equality through government mandate has its own issues, most often with a minority of people becoming a hell of a lot more equal than others. The best idea, I think, is to try to maximize freedom and equality by protecting everyone equally under the law while allowing people to make their own choices. Equality under the law buoyed by education and human sympathy. Freedom under the law for everyone.

 

[Floppertje]

snip

I didn't miss your point but you have seemingly missed mine. To exclude someone from being there means to exclude someone from being there. Yes it is about how you treat people, let me ask again, has any video game you played, actually displayed anything that remotely looks like it is treating a specific group, or gender, or non geek in a way deemed wrong and or exclusionary.

But more to what you are missing, is that the "geek culture" does not consist of only straight white men, contrary to some of what was written in that article and encompasses a huge number of diversified individuals. Meaning the "Geek club" is not an "No Girls allowed Club" Nor are geeks chastising anyone who goes to a place considered "geek" in nature who does not look geek enough. These people are not being treated differently, and that's the faulty premise of this entire article.

Because it's happened, we as a "geek culture" are permitting it, or even defending it. Except we don't.

Just because a female character with strong portrayal is not a game does not mean that the game is not trying to treat people equally. You can't and often shouldn't make a character for everyone. That does not mean that the female player, or Russian Player, or hell let's say German Player since Nazi's are a common enemy, are being treated badly once they get there, they in fact are not.

Here let me give you a classic example. Nintendo makes kids games. Nintendo is for kids! Pokemon is kiddie! Heard any of these before? This is hot geek on geek debate right there. Happens all the time.

But is Nintendo treating it's older audience poorly just because they primarily aim their games at kids? Does the Nintendo game playing community keep older players out of "Their culture" because they are older, and it's meant for kids primarily?

No.

If the argument is about how people are treated in the geek culture when they are an "outsider" then there is no argument. There might have been one back in the day, but these days, you walk through the doors of Sakuracon, and you are a geek. You walk into a video game store, and you are a geek. You are greeted, you are helped if you need it, and they will help you find the things you want regardless of what you may or may not look like.

Because Geeks can be, and are anyone, Geeks don't try and outcast people.

The example of the Gay bar was the premise of the start of Bob's topic. Please, enlighten me, where have you ever gone, where any specific person was actually treated they was described in the Gay bar example in the "geek scene".

If truly we Geeks are treating people like outcasts, you could site some recent example where that happened on a scale that felt exclusionary.

Geeks may have at one time tried to exclude people from their culture, but I bet you people would be hard pressed to find that we are actually that exclusionary these days if at all.

So you didn't miss my point but you're being intentionally obtuse?
YES! Military shooters use muslims as bullet spunges, women are mostly used for titilation (mass effect, a game praised for it's characterization can't stop zooming in on miranda's ass), Call of Juarez: the Cartel has a mission where you shoot black gang members and you get an achievement for doing so. I call that wrong.

Yes, geek culture DOES consist mainly of straight white men. Do you think the whole 'fake geek girl' thing exists because girls really are faking their geekyness so they can get in your pants or maybe guys are just a little insecure about losing their popularity throne in the geek kingdom?

You claim that we aren't permitting or defending it, but in the same post you deny the problem exists! that's the definition of permitting it.

No, you shouldn't make a character for everyone, but yes, women, russians and germans ARE treated badly. you must not spend a lot of time on the internet. Are you honestly telling me you never heard anyone call a german player a nazi just because they're german? never heard a racial slur on xbox live?

As for your question on where people are treated badly, how about conventions? How about the internet? women are supposed to be either pretty and therefor eyecandy for the guys, or they're supposed to not be there, and god forbid someone cosplays as someone more attractive than them...
And how about those female writers who get insulted and threatened because they're women who wrote something for a videogame?

You are trying to deny a problem that very definitely DOES exist, which brings me back to my original point: you are certainly part of the problem.

Been to Sakuracon for 13 years straight. How about you take a large class of shutup because you thinking that is your own damn problem.

How about the fact that I have to deal with your shit right now because I dared to write something you disagree with? I might not be getting racial slurs, or sexist remarks, but I still have to deal with you thinking I'm wrong. But let's ignore that for a second, let's talk about the fact that in an online game where I dare to speak into the microphone and do even remotely poorly how I am called "gay" Man you a dude you must be gay.

I suppose I should just pass it off because of my privilege right? Getting told what sexual orientation they think I have with the intent of it being offensive.

Now let me ask you. Those games you speak about? Do you honestly expect me to believe their intent is to be offensive? I mean really consider that for a second.

And for all those things you just said, every single god damned one of them. You're telling me you have never heard people tell them that they were out of line? You are telling me they never got reported, temporary banned, or fully banned? Is that your idea of permitting it?!

You know those fake geek girl bullshit things was started by barely a god damned handful, and spread like a damned wildfire because it hit the internet like it was a freaking plague outbreak, when really it was barely a handful of assholes. How bout that?

I am not denying the problem exists, I am saying we are not to blame! We are doing everything we freaking can, because we can't change the whole damned world, and blaming a group of millions for the actions of a few is the very ideal of how stupid you are being.

I should not blame all germans for the actions of the Nazis and Hitler. They may have had huge numbers, but the germans were not the ones who committed wrong. Nor were they wrong because they couldn't stand up for it at the time but they did try. The did everything they could. They failed, but they tried!

I should not blame all Jews for the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, because the many were not able to stop the few. They did what they could, that doesn't mean they are complacent and tolerant of it.

So you people need to quit telling the entire geek community, that because of the actions of a few we are all treating specific groups of other people badly. We are freaking doing what we can, when we can, we are not allowing it to happen just because it is there. And a women dressed sexy, is not women being treated badly, that a damned misnomer!

This is how bad your argument is. This is why you are so damned wrong

Getting a little worked up are we? yes, you do need to deal with people disagreeing with you, just like everyone else does. you don't seem to be doing it very well though.
First you say 'it doesn't happen', while it certainly does.
You being called gay is part of the same problem, that shouldn't happen either and you shouldn't pass it up. you have as much right to a welcoming environment as anybody else.

The point you're making is a completely different one, but no, I do not think these games are trying to be offensive. I think it's more a problem of lazy design and not knowing any better. In a way, this is even worse than being intentionally offensive. apparently these ideas are so ingrained in these developers that they don't even think about it. Seems to me like that's a problem that needs to be addressed.

I am not saying at all that there is nothing being done. I have seen people calling others out on being an ass (and usually being called a white knight for it like it's an insult) and I absolutely do appreciate that. keep up the good work. But you WERE saying that these things didn't happen and that's why I said you're permitting it.

As for your final points: you're right. we shouldn't equate individuals with groups. When people talk to 'the geek community' they're talking to all of it, not just you. When they say there is a problem that needs to be handled (and there is), there's a little footnote that reads 'we know not everyone in the community is part of this problem and those who are not are free to keep doing what they're doing.'
I'm not saying that these things always happen everywhere because they don't. I'm saying that every time it happens is one time too many and the problem won't be solved until it doesn't happen anymore (which probably means it'll never be solved) but that doesn't mean we should stop addressing it. If you really do call out people on their bad behavior, you are helping and I thank you for it, but in your earlier posts you denied that there was a problem and that's why I called you out on it.