On Rape Jokes and Sensitivity

[Daria.Morgendorffer]

If a joke is funny, I will laugh.

Okay, if the UID doesn't make it obvious, I'm female. I'm also considered "short", and I am skinny.

Yes, I live in reasonable (but not crippling) fear of getting raped. My car is NEVER without at least half a tank of gas in it. I NEVER travel anywhere without my camping knife, despite the fact that it could be considered a concealed weapon and I could be arrested for it. I NEVER park next to a van, and I get the hell away from anyone cat-calling me FROM a van.

Do I think women who do not do these things "deserve" to be raped? Of course not, but I grew up in the ghetto, so I'm more paranoid than most. Nobody deserves it, and I hate the fact that women are overly gaslighted into thinking they were not brutalized.

Rape is an awful thing, and I hate the fact that I need to clarify that fact (I get particularly skeeved out at rape fantasies; I honestly have no idea why anyone would participate in such a thing knowing so much could go wrong). But I'm also not one of those feminists that twitches at the word "rape". I'd rather have open and honest discussions about it than sticking my fingers in my ears until "rape" is no longer the topic of discussion.

That said: if a joke is funny, I will laugh.

I've seen the Jim Norton/Lindy West debate on the subject, and I have to say that I came down, ultimately, on the side of Jim Norton. Because, as he quoted Matt and Trey, either it's all OK or none of it is OK. Lindy West tried to insist that making a rape joke might be inconsiderate of someone's feelings in that audience, but it's not the comedian's responsibility to make sure he/she doesn't bounce someone's trigger. (If you pay real close attention to that debate, by the way, West herself made a rape joke, and Norton either missed it or was too respectful to call her out on it. I myself would have not been so kind.)

Bottom line is that she claimed she wasn't trying to control speech, but she really was. Because if you have to take into account the feelings of everyone for every reason, there will be nothing to joke about ever. Oh, and comedy is not supposed to serve as your "safe space" for your debate on the subject. If you don't like the comic, fine. You're within your right to call him a "dick" for it. But it's not his responsibility to cater to every feeling you have.

PS: I have not been raped, but I have been in long-term emotionally abusive relationships that were also scarring and humiliating. I laugh about that too. It helps me cope.

 

[ThreeName]

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You guys didn't get the joke

That was the joke. He was making a joke about the dead babies in question never getting old. Because they're dead.

Yaaaaaay~

 

[MeChaNiZ3D]

If someone believes in equality I don't think they can be unknowingly perpetuating a system that is unequal when it is a subject of discussion often and they have plenty of opportunity to examine their actions.

I disagree with that. Even the best intentioned person can make a mistake, it's going to happen sooner or later. That's a big part of lots of social activism, that people accept mistakes and acknowledge them.

I don't think I can define it properly being as tired as I am. For now, apply common sense. If someone believes in equality I don't think they can be unknowingly perpetuating a system that is unequal when it is a subject of discussion often and they have plenty of opportunity to examine their actions.

If someone supports equality they can totally UNKNOWINGLY perpetuate a system that is unequal. That's what unknowing is all about. Further, people tend not to self-analyse, so it's quite possible to not put much thought into this. That's why you have so many people here claim to be "equalists" then tell women to stop bitching in the next breath. They never think about it, so they never reach cognitive disonnance. Or they justify it. There's a lot of people who try and justify why, while they oppose racism, it's okay to try and prevent a black person from getting a home on the block or dating their child.

Humans are complicated and often operate on a level that belies thought or logic.

Ok, I will stop attempting to generalise. The final point I fall back to is that I don't think casual or comedic use of sexism and racism perpetuates sexism and racism, both in cases where it is satire of intolerant mindsets, and where an intolerant phrase is used to mean something else. Generally what I see people saying is that just because the words "mankind", "fag" and "nigga" are used at all, it is perpetuating their respective prejudices whether or not the speaker is using them for that purpose. But the three words have advanced beyond their initial prejudice to the point where I think they are mainly used for their context-dependant alternate meanings, or used ironically or in parody, and I don't see this as a problem.

 

[Ishal]

I think joking about something as abhorrent as rape is just picking low fruit for the shock value of it. Comedians often do it, and I don't find it too funny.

If any person, male or female, tells me they are offended by something I say or said, I tend to stop saying those things. I don't tell them to get a thicker skin or grow up or whatever. I don't see anything to gain from being all bent out of shape over it and being confrontational. If someone has the courage to come up to me and single me out, telling me exactly what I said that offended them, then that will be the end of it.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Rape is a far more personal crime then assault or simple violence. While those things are terrible, they rarely leave the longterm mental scarring that rape does. A rape victim is disempowered in every way imaginable, and tends to leave horrible mental scars, even if there are no physical scars. The reason rape is treated differently from violence is because they are NOT the same.

I don't know if you've met anyone close to you who has been raped, but I know several people. I also know people who were physically assaulted by their parents as children, and while that is horrendous and leaves scars as well, they were not as affected as the rape victims, who often felt like they didn't even own their own bodies anymore. That pain will never go away. One of the two girls I'm friends with cuts herself on a regular basis, is a heavy drug user, and relies on other things to numb the pain. My other friend still suffers from post traumatic stress syndrome, and would wake up in the nights screaming, thinking she was being raped again. It's especially painful because he got away with it, and she had to see him on a regular basis. She also became a heavy drug user for a long time. Her later boyfriends were highly abusive, but she wouldn't leave them because she felt she deserved it. You would never know it by looking at her, because she seems so normal and outgoing, but the people who suffer from this don't fit into stereotypes. They don't dress in black and act "emo." They're normal, preppy people to the outside world until you see the pain they're struggling with on a daily basis.

There's a sense of shame that exists with rape that doesn't exist with violence. If you get attacked, you're probably going to be more than happy to tell the police about what happened. Rape victims keep it to themselves, hoping it all just goes away, and rarely report it. There's also a strong rape culture that exists in this country. Rape culture is the idea that the rape was the victims fault, and that she deserved it, asked for it, or is lying about it. This may seem crazy, but my friend witnessed it first hand, as her rapist got off scott free and was at the same school as her. Her councilor told my friend that if she reported what happened, she would make sure my friend never entered into a college. The rapist was handsome, popular, and charismatic, being the class president. His friends turned on her as well, calling her a liar, telling her she was either a liar or it was her fault. I even witnessed some of this myself when I met her in college. Victims of violence aren't usually blamed for the crime, but rape victims are.

Well said, touched on most everything I dropped by the thread to discuss. Rape is an extraordinarily dehumanizing crime. Many...not all, but many...rape victims are left shattered by their experience, and the road to recovery is long and painful, and often belabored by recrimination and second guessing by a society they look to for support. Women get everything from their sexual history to their choice of attire dragged out into the limelight, men get their masculinity questioned and/or undermined, assuming they aren't getting laughed at for failing to overpower their attacker like a proper dude.

One doesn't need to look much further than the very recent Steubenville to see what kind of circus ensues from a rape accusation, to what degree the victim is demonized, and what extraordinary lengths need to be gone to in order to make a conviction stick.

That doesn't mean you can't make jokes about it. Gallows humor and whistling past the graveyard are ways in which humans learn to rationalize and make sense of unpleasant truths. Like all jokes about highly sensitive material, however, I would suggest you leave the timing, choice of audience, and execution of such jokes to professionals. You don't HAVE to...I assume we all live in free countries...but if you make a stupid rape joke in front of a rape survivor and they go into PTSD overdrive, that's on you. Don't make Holocaust jokes in front of Holocaust survivors, don't make dead baby jokes in front of grieving mothers, and don't make rape jokes in front of rape survivors. Don't know who the rape survivors are? Maybe you should reconsider your joke.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

if you make a stupid rape joke in front of a rape survivor and they go into PTSD overdrive, that's on you.

Talk about victim blaming. If a rape survivor has PTSD, don't you think they should be getting treatment for it? What you just said is akin to saying "if your car backfires and there's a veteran with PTSD in the area who has an episode and attacks you, that's on you."

I mean yes, it's a dick move if you crack a rape joke to someone who you know is a survivor, but I really don't see how anyone is responsible for the actions of people suffering from PTSD, any more than they would be if the person had bipolar disorder or depression. Or schizophrenia, for that matter.

 

[Phearo]

You guys didn't get the joke

Well no. It would be a dick move to tell it to her knowing her baby died, but telling it my friends who are not parents, they may not mind.

B-but, I was quoting Smash Mouth! You don't like Walking in the Sun?

I hear what you're saying, but I fear you might as well be walking on the sun.

See, this guy gets it.

 

[ThreeName]

B-but, I was quoting Smash Mouth! You don't like Walking in the Sun?

Apologies, I don't really listen to... that. I think it was in a Weird Al song though.

Comment rescinded!

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Talk about victim blaming. If a rape survivor has PTSD, don't you think they should be getting treatment for it? What you just said is akin to saying "if your car backfires and there's a veteran with PTSD in the area who has an episode and attacks you, that's on you."

I mean yes, it's a dick move if you crack a rape joke to someone who you know is a survivor, but I really don't see how anyone is responsible for the actions of people suffering from PTSD, any more than they would be if the person had bipolar disorder or depression. Or schizophrenia, for that matter.

How on earth is that "victim blaming"? Oh wait, what is this falderal about "getting attacked"? Who said anything about "getting attacked"? There's misconstruing what people say and then there's just...this. You've created a scenario in which a whimsical joke maker is brutally assaulted by someone with PTSD, and then ascribed it to me. Well done. That's an easy one to topple, isn't it? Don't get straw on the floor.

Car backfiring =/= making a joke you know perfectly well is extremely sensitive/provocative. It's a ludicrous analogy. If rape humor just comes tumbling out of your mouth completely unbidden in the same fashion that a car randomly backfires I suggest speaking to a doctor.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

Talk about victim blaming. If a rape survivor has PTSD, don't you think they should be getting treatment for it? What you just said is akin to saying "if your car backfires and there's a veteran with PTSD in the area who has an episode and attacks you, that's on you."

I mean yes, it's a dick move if you crack a rape joke to someone who you know is a survivor, but I really don't see how anyone is responsible for the actions of people suffering from PTSD, any more than they would be if the person had bipolar disorder or depression. Or schizophrenia, for that matter.

How on earth is that "victim blaming"? Oh wait, what is this falderal about "getting attacked"? Who said anything about "getting attacked"? There's misconstruing what people say and then there's just...this. You've created a scenario in which a whimsical joke maker is brutally assaulted by someone with PTSD, and then ascribed it to me. Well done. That's an easy one to topple, isn't it? Don't get straw on the floor.

Car backfiring =/= making a joke you know perfectly well is extremely sensitive/provocative. It's a ludicrous analogy. If rape humor just comes tumbling out of your mouth completely unbidden in the same fashion that a car randomly backfires I suggest speaking to a doctor.

It's actually a pretty good analogy, since if your car is backfiring, you need to take it to a mechanic. They aren't supposed to do that. So there's a definite choice there as to whether to get your car fixed or not, and in the meantime you run the risk of triggering an episode in any vets with PTSD in the area. Just like you can choose to crack a rape joke, but you run the risk of triggering the PTSD of any rape survivors who might be listening. PTSD is a serious mental health condition, and I urge anyone suffering from it to see a psychiatrist so they can better integrate themselves into normal life. Even if it doesn't cause you to actually attack someone, if it's serious enough to be called "PTSD Overdrive," it's serious enough to see a doctor about. If what someone says bothers you, I'd suggest avoiding that person. If what they say puts you into a flashback, I'd suggest a psychiatrist to get help managing your trauma.

Edit: By the way, "PTSD overdrive" was your phrase, not mine. If I wasn't supposed to take it as flashback triggered violence, what was I supposed to take it as? Even if it's "just" a panic attack, that's a serious enough problem to suggest that the person doing it needs help.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

It's actually a pretty good analogy, since if your car is backfiring, you need to take it to a mechanic. They aren't supposed to do that. So there's a definite choice there as to whether to get your car fixed or not, and in the meantime you run the risk of triggering an episode in any vets with PTSD in the area. Just like you can choose to crack a rape joke, but you run the risk of triggering the PTSD of any rape survivors who might be listening.

You clearly employ a much more generous scale than I do when it comes to determining the quality of analogies. I humbly request that we let this one die now.

By the way, "PTSD overdrive" was your phrase, not mine. If I wasn't supposed to take it as flashback triggered violence, what was I supposed to take it as? Even if it's "just" a panic attack, that's a serious enough problem to suggest that the person doing it needs help.

Yes, the implication was panic attack or extreme distress. I'm still not sure how we got to "victim blaming" or violent assaults from that, but I'm guessing we can chalk it up to garden variety miscommunication and leave it at that.

 

[silversnake4133]

Probably because Feminists blew the whole thing out of proportion and think that everything against women is a crime. Also I like to believe that the term "grow a thick skin" doesn't really exist anymore since on the Internet, if someone says something you don't like or agree with, you can just block, flag or delete their comment to save yourself from admitting that you were *GASP* wrong. People don't like being wrong, so instead of admitting it, they just delete whomever calls them out on their bullcrap, or explains why their view may be incorrect.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Rape has a special place in society.] There is a massive amount of rape in our society, and a tiny conviction rate, and few people seem to want to really do anything about it.

Er, what are you basing the "massive amount of rape" on? Vague, exaggerated assertions are as dangerous as ingoring a problem. Oh and what is "our society"? Western society? If Western society has "massive" amounts what about areas of Africa where it is genuinely endemic?

Something like 1 in 4 to 1 in 6 women in western nations will be raped at least once during their lifetime, that's a massive amount.

Yes, things are worse in Africa...so? What problem apart from "not being in Africa" is this not the case with?

So, yeah, off hand assertions about "massive amounts of rape" and people "not doing enough about it" worry me and seem a simplistic take on a complex issue.

Alright, if I was to specify a few things off the top of my head:

Firstly, there's been a...I won't say "scandal", because it's hardly new or unexpected, but a thing were various high ranking officials in the US military, including those who are supposed to stop rape and sexual harassment, have been charged with rape and sexual harassment, not to mention the usual lower ranked stuff. And nothing much seems to be done about this, because dealing with the problem in any real sense means first acknowledging, and this is seen as somehow anti-military. It really needs to be understood that there are members of the US military very much in the wrong, and it is their actions that are tarnishing its reputation, not publicly dealing with them. This also applies to any organisation, far too many are content with quietly ignoring the issue because people don't want to face it.

Secondly, also in the US, it's become popular not to test rape kits, but to simply stick them in a warehouse and forget about them. I think this may be because if they wait until the statute of limitations are expired, they don't have to bother with doing anything, saves them the cost of an investigation and trial etc. Now, you've got groups slowly going through the backlog of these, who have discovered, to nobody's real surprise, that the DNA matches that of other kits, or people later convicted and imprisoned for other rapes and murders, crimes that could not have been committed if they've been imprisoned for the first rapes.

Similarly, Topeka, Kansas didn't want to have to pay to deal with domestic violence, so they decriminalised it. I'm not sure if they have made it a crime again yet.

Now, dealing with these issues would make a real (if minor) difference, and would not require the laws to be altered, they would merely require people wanting to face the problem head on.

 

[Azure23]

I am a survivor of a sexual assault, I have loved ones who are survivors of sexual assaults. What happened to us isn't funny, it was horrible and debilitating. Eleven years after it I still sometimes have nightmares and flashbacks. I won't say that a rape joke has ever triggered a flashback because it hasn't, but even hearing the word can make me feel incredibly uncomfortable and, strangely cold and just, bad. This is a difficult subject, because on one hand, comedians are often the first to address delicate social issues because the humor helps us examine them without too much fear or judgement. You can look at Charlie chaplin's very public critiques of fascism for a good example of this. On the other hand, the people who are getting offended by these jokes have, in my own opinion, every right to be offended. Yeah, you were telling a joke and trying to be funny and had no intention of hurting anybody with those words, but to some of them, you just sent them right back to the worst experience of their lives. I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's not about someone being too sensitive or someone not being allowed to tell a joke, everyone experiences trauma in different ways, so why take the chance of hurting someone?

Look, would you make a joke about human trafficking? Or about a soldier getting his legs blown off by a grenade? Because that'a often the magnitude of mental and emotional trauma that you're joking about when you make a rape joke. But once again it all comes down to context, by all means make all the jokes you want, just be sure you aren't causing someone to suffer by doing so.

Oh and to all those people who are like "hurr durr feminazis making a big deal out of everything!" These feminazis do not exist outside of your imagination, they are perfectly reasonable feminists who are probably just fed up with your bullshit and are now angry, just like anyone who has had to put up with such baffling amounts of stupidity has any right to be.

I apologize for the long, somewhat disjointed, post. I find it very hard to speak eloquently on this subject. Hopefully anyone reading this has stuck it out and we can have a good discussion about this.

 

[Lonewolfm16]

I am a survivor of a sexual assault, I have loved ones who are survivors of sexual assaults. What happened to us isn't funny, it was horrible and debilitating. Eleven years after it I still sometimes have nightmares and flashbacks. I won't say that a rape joke has ever triggered a flashback because it hasn't, but even hearing the word can make me feel incredibly uncomfortable and, strangely cold and just, bad. This is a difficult subject, because on one hand, comedians are often the first to address delicate social issues because the humor helps us examine them without too much fear or judgement. You can look at Charlie chaplin's very public critiques of fascism for a good example of this. On the other hand, the people who are getting offended by these jokes have, in my own opinion, every right to be offended. Yeah, you were telling a joke and trying to be funny and had no intention of hurting anybody with those words, but to some of them, you just sent them right back to the worst experience of their lives. I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's not about someone being too sensitive or someone not being allowed to tell a joke, everyone experiences trauma in different ways, so why take the chance of hurting someone?

Look, would you make a joke about human trafficking? Or about a soldier getting his legs blown off by a grenade? Because that'a often the magnitude of mental and emotional trauma that you're joking about when you make a rape joke. But once again it all comes down to context, by all means make all the jokes you want, just be sure you aren't causing someone to suffer by doing so.

Oh and to all those people who are like "hurr durr feminazis making a big deal out of everything!" These feminazis do not exist outside of your imagination, they are perfectly reasonable feminists who are probably just fed up with your bullshit and are now angry, just like anyone who has had to put up with such baffling amounts of stupidity has any right to be.

I apologize for the long, somewhat disjointed, post. I find it very hard to speak eloquently on this subject. Hopefully anyone reading this has stuck it out and we can have a good discussion about this.

The question is less "should rape jokes be allowed" and more "why is rape so controversial, but equally horrible things (murder, assault, torture, etc) are viewed as being far less controversial.

 

[DevilWithaHalo]

Something like 1 in 4 to 1 in 6 women in western nations will be raped at least once during their lifetime, that's a massive amount.

You think that's bad? http://www.oneinthreewomen.com/
And...

At least one in every three women, or up to one billion women, have been beaten, coerced into sex, or otherwise abused in their lifetimes. Usually, the abuser is a member of her own family or someone known to her (L Heise, M Ellsberg, M Gottemoeller, 1999).

And...

Up to 47% of women report that their first sexual intercourse was forced (WHO, 2002).

Oh my gosh, it's gotten even worse while posting this! http://www.kawarthasexualassaultcentre.com/the_facts

1 in 2 women will be sexually assaulted at some time in their lives

Oh wait.. it's gotten better... http://rwu.edu/campus-life/health-counseling/counseling-center/sexual-assault/rape-myths-and-fac

One out of four women is sexually assaulted at some point in her life.

Doesn't seem to change for college students...

One in four college women have either been raped or suffered attempted rape.

Ah, it's gotten better still; http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-victims

1 out of every 6 American women has been the victim of an attempted or completed rape in her lifetime

Shit, back up again; http://www.woar.org/resources/sexual-assault-statistics.php

1 in 3 American women will be sexually abused during their lifetime

Wait, might be getting better again; http://www.cdc.gov/ViolencePrevention/pdf/sv-datasheet-a.pdf

Nearly 1 in 5 women...

Although upon reading one the *actual* studies; https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/182369.pdf Suggests a conservative 1 in 10 estimate (although they point out differing numbers within the methodologies used in various studies)

Now while I'm inclined to agree with the theoretical concept behind Godwin's Law when applied to time and a circumstance (the longer you exist, the higher chance something bad will happen to you), I cannot with any sense of rationality consider any of those statistics as accurate in the slightest. Some people have already discussed why...
http://aspiringeconomist.com/index.php/2009/09/11/rape-statistics-1-in-4/
http://www.iwf.org/news/2432517/One-in-Four-Rape-myths-do-injustice-too
http://www.city-journal.org/2008/18_1_campus_rape.html
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2011/04/17/stop_quoting_bu.html
http://bjsdata.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/fvsv9410.pdf (The raw data suggests only 2.1 per 1000, or 0.0021 percent)
And looking at the actual reported data several of the above sites point to, for example; http://www.endvawnow.org/uploads/browser/files/vawprevalence_matrix_june2013.pdf Suggest different numbers, for example; both 35.6% & 24.8% from Intimate Partner Sexual violence in 2010 in the US.

I believe there is room for discussion regarding the 1in6, 1in5, 1in4, 1in3 and 1in2 statistic people keep spreading around. Is it an issue? Sure is. Is it the pandemic being reported? I highly doubt that.

 

[nightwolf667]

1 in 6 women will be raped within their lifetime. That's the official U.S. statistic by the way based on rapes that have actually been reported in the U.S., it does not cover the ones that have gone unreported. The likelihood is that it's lower than that, possibly as low as 1 in 4. In the Military, it's 1 in 2 and that's non-gender. If you see a group of six women standing in a circle, there's a good bet that one of those women has been raped and also a good bet that another of them will be. It's a sobering statistic, especially for women who face the threat of rape from just walking down the street or going out jogging alone (not even at night!). If they are raped, the high likelihood is that they won't get justice, even if they report it. They will be mocked and blamed by the friends and family of their attacker, by their former friends at school, they'll be called a slut and a whore, they'll face being ostracized. It's a fear that most women live with, regardless of color or creed, and one that some actively prepare for. I know at least two women in my family that have been physically, emotionally, and sexually abused by different partners. I have not, that makes it 2/6 for me alone.

Who are you threatening when you joke about rape? Why are you threatening them? Are you supporting the victim? Or are you supporting the right of the attacker to rape them?

This isn't to say that rape jokes can't be funny, but the vast majority of rape jokes out there support the traditional blame the victim mind-set: it was the woman's fault, look what she was wearing, or to quote Daniel Tosh "Wouldn't it be funny if this woman was raped by six guys right now? Like right now?" Comedy can't be subversive if it's reinforcing traditional norms, to a man or woman in the audience who has been raped, this isn't funny. It's a genuine threat to their personal safety or mocking them for their failure to "protect themselves" from being raped. After all, the joke insists, they were asking for it. This is most rape jokes, there are some that escape it, but most rely on the darkness of the act itself to be humorous. That's lazy comedy, it doesn't amount to more than saying "lol dead babies lol" and is that really funny or is it just being an asshole?

It's important to remember, also, that rape jokes are used on the internet as a silencing tactic, you don't have to look much farther than what happened with Anita Sarkeesian or Jeezebel when they talked about the Daniel Tosh incident. There are floods of comments that are difficult to look at threatening these women with rape, assault, seeking to use jokes to reduce them to a body part (their vagina) as an easy, quick (lazy) way to silence them for presenting an opinion that they don't agree with. "Hur, hur, if I threaten her with rape that'll shut the ***** up!" When or if they get called out? "What! I was just joking! Free speech!"

Should we defend unfunny, tasteless comedy just because it's comedy? If you're going to joke about a serious issue, then the issue must be given the respect it deserves. A comedian has to earn their darkness and they have to earn the laughter, if the joke isn't causing the people around you to think about the issue in a new or serious light, then there wasn't much point to it to begin with and the joke itself is a failure. All a bad troll does is make someone angry and all a bad comedian does is prove that they're a tasteless, idiotic asshole.

Here are some examples:

The Rape Joke Supercut: I can't believe you laughed at that

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIVmI6N6JjY

Wanda Sykes: The Detachable Vagina.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8FfFwtL91Q

Yes, rape jokes can be funny. But only if you do them right.

 

[Azure23]

What makes you think that murder and physical assault are equally horrible? Look my life is in a good place right now, healthy relationship, decent job, etc, but there was a time when I would wake up and seriously consider whether or not I should live through the day. And it's not "emo" or attention seeking or any of that bullshit, it's the reality for many survivors. If not for the love of my family and one truly amazing woman I might not've made it. But plenty of other survivors of sexual assault don't have that support, and to some of those people death is an attractive alternative. I mean death is death right? Final, conclusive, it doesn't matter how you get there. So I suppose by that rationale murder is not equally horrible. As for torture? Well what is rape of not a complete torture? Encapsulating mental, physical, and emotional trauma. You bring up physical assault as well, truly domestic violence and child abuse are two horrible things, but seldom do they leave the scars a sexual assault does.

I apologize for the heavy handedness of this post and I would welcome the continued discussion. Please remember that these are only my personal opinions and I of course would consider alternative viewpoints. That said these opinions (for obvious reasons) are very deep seated and it will take a masterful argument to change my mind on this.

 

[darkstarangel]

The only thing I can put it down to is that for the past 40 or so years Slasher flicks have been glorifying gore & violence that the mainstream media is practically desensitised to it. Even to the point where death & gore can be parodied. And even though such films usually contain a lot of sex, even dying during the act, the two were never combined. Jason or michael myers never raped their victims just slaughtered them.

Desensitisation to violence and murder have been around a long time, my friend. Ever read an ancient Greek tragedy? Or a comedy for that matter?

Very true. But none of the frescos or pottery art have ever captured the visual imagery of a rotting corpse in a hockey mask impailing a spear through two teenagers having sex on a boat. And it was seldom, if ever, that the monsters were celebrated as the heroes.

To think, that just reading about Dracula or Frankensteins monster used to instill fear in the readers of the time they were written. Where as today even watching a line of people having their mouths stiched to each others arses is tough to get a reaction.

 

[Watcheroftrends]

On this topic, here's what I don't understand.

In a perfect world, a woman walking naked down the street shouldn't be blamed for getting raped.

Unfortunately, dressing in a sexual manner attracts attention that can be very bad. Going to a party and getting drunk around people who you don't know well is risky. Engaging in acts like kissing and rubbing up against another person's body triggers a sexual response that can make them believe you want to have intercourse.

While it is still wrong for the other party to assume what you want or to act upon the urges they feel, it is also true that these urges and situations could have been avoided. Avoiding these things could possibly have prevented the situation from escalating into a rape scenario, regardless of right or wrong.

I mean, if I walk down the street with my life savings in bills on display in a clear plastic suitcase, that doesn't mean it's right that I get robbed. It will still probably happen, though. It's stupid for me, in that sense, to do that. In the same way, just because laws and morality says there's no such thing as a victim being at fault for "asking" to be raped, it's still stupid that you trigger or enter situations in which it's more likely to occur.

If anything, this widespread emotional response to rape being a totally victimized crime is actually a bad thing. It tells women (and men) that there's no reason to be smart about this sort of thing because, hey, it's the rapists' fault. This still doesn't stop you from actually getting raped, though. If you don't agree with me, then you're just hung up on some idealist bullshit. People just aren't of good stock.