Well, I think Spore was one of the best genre-defying games I've played, and it had more potential, so I'd challenge the notion that genre mixing always ends badly.
On RTS Games
- Thread starter Yahtzee Croshaw
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Yeah that's a bullshit comment as well. Warcraft develops *IN* WoW.Aurgelmir said:I bet someone already pointed this out to you, but I will do so tooYahtzee Croshaw said:
WoW Has not really frozen the story of WarCraft in a single moment of time. Unless you mean that every bit of the story is active at the same time all around the WoW world.
But the story as a whole has progressed quite a bit, at least through the expansions. And hell they are blowing up the friggin world in Cataclysm...
So yeah WoW isnt really that static anymore
God... so many comments...
Anyway, even though I have my doubts you'll read this, there's a free-to-play game out that that blends action and RTS gameplay. It did it pretty well and was solid as far as gameplay was concerned. It was pretty much like Halo with a commander telling people where to go. That's as good as it got though. There weren't that many classes to choose from and since it was the foot soldiers that usually built, it really ended up being one of those games where "you know what to do" and you do it. The RTS elements in it were all but gone-- sure there were buildings and turrets you could build, but the engineer in TF2 could to the exact same thing. To an extent.
Anyway, I would give Savage 2 a look if I were you. I know I just said a list of things the game did wrong, lol, but I didn't say what could be done to make the so-close-to-perfect-balance better.
Moreover, even though I haven't looked into them, there are apparently more games like it on the market.
But, yeah, I can see something like Battlefield with a Sargent class that issues waypoint commands, makes npc peons build stuff, and call in airstrikes, etc, would be fun. What killed Savage 2: A Tortured Soul for the type of game it was was precisely that there weren't enough RTS elements in it, meaning I had no real reason to keep playing when I had something more action oriented in hand. Though... the combat in it WAS fun and probably the best I've seen in a swordplay game.
Anyway, even though I have my doubts you'll read this, there's a free-to-play game out that that blends action and RTS gameplay. It did it pretty well and was solid as far as gameplay was concerned. It was pretty much like Halo with a commander telling people where to go. That's as good as it got though. There weren't that many classes to choose from and since it was the foot soldiers that usually built, it really ended up being one of those games where "you know what to do" and you do it. The RTS elements in it were all but gone-- sure there were buildings and turrets you could build, but the engineer in TF2 could to the exact same thing. To an extent.
Anyway, I would give Savage 2 a look if I were you. I know I just said a list of things the game did wrong, lol, but I didn't say what could be done to make the so-close-to-perfect-balance better.
Moreover, even though I haven't looked into them, there are apparently more games like it on the market.
But, yeah, I can see something like Battlefield with a Sargent class that issues waypoint commands, makes npc peons build stuff, and call in airstrikes, etc, would be fun. What killed Savage 2: A Tortured Soul for the type of game it was was precisely that there weren't enough RTS elements in it, meaning I had no real reason to keep playing when I had something more action oriented in hand. Though... the combat in it WAS fun and probably the best I've seen in a swordplay game.
Natural Selection
Allegiance
Tribes (to a certain extent)
Savage and Savage 2
Are all games that have an RTS commander issuing orders to real humans. When you get the right teams together (serious BUT in that) these can all be awesome games. Especially Allegiance, that was way ahead of it's time.
Allegiance
Tribes (to a certain extent)
Savage and Savage 2
Are all games that have an RTS commander issuing orders to real humans. When you get the right teams together (serious BUT in that) these can all be awesome games. Especially Allegiance, that was way ahead of it's time.
Starcraft 2 is not so much chess with an orchestral soundtrack as it is an action game zoomed out a few levels, but I understand the difficulties of reviewing it in ZP-style. Apart from a couple of goofy points in the story and cutscenes, there's not really much else one can make fun of. Still, I do find it weird that a guy exactly my age like Yahtzee, who grew up during the "golden age" of PC gaming, doesn't like RTS games and treats them with the "special" disposition of a 00's teenager whose first game was Halo. To each their own I guess.
I could see that working. Possibly some kind of hub city, or rival city's if done in the Warcraft generally start to hate the alliance and boo at them in Blizcon way. Some kind of a ranking system for commanders that gives the people being hired some idea of their chances of survival and the same for mercs so if they slow down a game they don't get into another too soon.
but why make a new game? World of Warcraft was mentioned earlier which is in many ways already attempting this. However the leader (interesting side note other than myself I have never been in a guild with a non-Dutch leader) is in the action so needs to focus on both their roll in the team as well as telling the rest of the group what to do. Also the only system for communicating with the players of any use is Teamspeak / vent / that thing wow tried to replace TS with but sort of failed. They don't give instructions fast enough for you to tell NOOBTANK01 that they need to get behind the ice block or whatever before they get insta-killed by the ten tonn ice monster charging up a glowing hammer (hypothetically). However the current system does work for the current PVE system very well so in many ways the concept is already in use (that and every other MMO since Ultima Online). But imagine how awesome it would be to play through a PVP battle (or possibly PVP style PVE with bots) where one leader is given the job of commanding the troops of a 40 man raid group against a rival guilds. Imagine how much fun it would be to successfully have a rogue scout out an area so the rest of the party can flank an alliance group taking them out before they had time to react. World of Warcraft is a well established game and guild members do tend to do what the leader tells them to in a raid so there is no reason this couldn't work. Also it would add a fresh way to play a rapidly stagnating genre.
Also Starcraft 2 is probably the only RTS I have managed to enjoy. Warcraft 1-3 I gave up (story was good though), Total war I had no idea how to actually win rather than all gang up on the smallest group until they are all dead. And as for Starcraft 1 I honestly couldn't stand the graphics (1st game was spyro Im not backwards compatible). The strategy in Starcraft 2 is rely well balanced out though and each race feels like another race rather than the same one in a different hat. This is probably not the best game for me to get into the RTS genra with because of the complex strategy and large amount of ridiculously good Korean players pawning everyone on the leaderbord but I have to admit I'm hooked.
but why make a new game? World of Warcraft was mentioned earlier which is in many ways already attempting this. However the leader (interesting side note other than myself I have never been in a guild with a non-Dutch leader) is in the action so needs to focus on both their roll in the team as well as telling the rest of the group what to do. Also the only system for communicating with the players of any use is Teamspeak / vent / that thing wow tried to replace TS with but sort of failed. They don't give instructions fast enough for you to tell NOOBTANK01 that they need to get behind the ice block or whatever before they get insta-killed by the ten tonn ice monster charging up a glowing hammer (hypothetically). However the current system does work for the current PVE system very well so in many ways the concept is already in use (that and every other MMO since Ultima Online). But imagine how awesome it would be to play through a PVP battle (or possibly PVP style PVE with bots) where one leader is given the job of commanding the troops of a 40 man raid group against a rival guilds. Imagine how much fun it would be to successfully have a rogue scout out an area so the rest of the party can flank an alliance group taking them out before they had time to react. World of Warcraft is a well established game and guild members do tend to do what the leader tells them to in a raid so there is no reason this couldn't work. Also it would add a fresh way to play a rapidly stagnating genre.
Also Starcraft 2 is probably the only RTS I have managed to enjoy. Warcraft 1-3 I gave up (story was good though), Total war I had no idea how to actually win rather than all gang up on the smallest group until they are all dead. And as for Starcraft 1 I honestly couldn't stand the graphics (1st game was spyro Im not backwards compatible). The strategy in Starcraft 2 is rely well balanced out though and each race feels like another race rather than the same one in a different hat. This is probably not the best game for me to get into the RTS genra with because of the complex strategy and large amount of ridiculously good Korean players pawning everyone on the leaderbord but I have to admit I'm hooked.
Yahtzee's idea sounds like an interesting experiment, and I'd certainly give it a whirl, but consider me one of the nerds who enjoy a good old straightforward RTS game and doesn't think the genre has any responsibility to cater to fans of other game styles.
I'm guessing Yahtzee never played Natural Selection (a free Half-Life Mod). It is pretty much an RTS where most of the players are grunts, playing as either human infantry or aliens. The humans have a commander who looks down and issues orders from 3rd person, while the grunts may either follow orders or not (though things generally go better if they work together). The aliens are all first-person view and have to work as a team to get things built and marines dead, without the benefit of a semi-omniscient commander. Overall, a very fun adaptation of RTS and FPS games; the concept was similar to the Savage games, but I preferred the graphics, gameplay, and mechanics in Natural Selection.
I'd always wondered why you hadn't reviewed an RTS. Well now we know, we shall never bug you gain...
YEAH RIGHT!
YEAH RIGHT!
Brings to mind BF2's commander who sat there being ignorred by people, occasionlly dropping artillery on a friendly base or giving an enemy a free car and then getting a gold medal for his trouble if his team wasn't a bunch of retarded gibbons. BF2142 has a commander too I think, he steered the Titan or something. Suffice to say being a commander sucked.
Widen your scope man. You won't find salvation in ignorance. Expect when Rockstar Games are involved. Screw you GTA (and its clones)!
It's a strange article when a professional game critic states he won't review a game because he doesn't get the genera. It's like Roger Ebert refusing to review something like Avatar because he doesn't get special effects.
It's specially odd because I do remember a review about Halo Wars, another about Super Smash Bros. Brawl (in which it was clear that Yahtzee didn't like the genera going in) and another with the frase "take this as the ignorant hate speech that it is".
I guess my point is that I never thought Yahtzee of all people, would shy away from reviewing such a big title because of fearing of offending some Koreans.
Probably we all feel intimidated by things all the time, but when we call ourselves professionals (like in the frase "professional game critic. Shut up I am!"), the job comes before our personal feelings.
Or maybe I "professional" doesn't mean what I think it means.
It's specially odd because I do remember a review about Halo Wars, another about Super Smash Bros. Brawl (in which it was clear that Yahtzee didn't like the genera going in) and another with the frase "take this as the ignorant hate speech that it is".
I guess my point is that I never thought Yahtzee of all people, would shy away from reviewing such a big title because of fearing of offending some Koreans.
Probably we all feel intimidated by things all the time, but when we call ourselves professionals (like in the frase "professional game critic. Shut up I am!"), the job comes before our personal feelings.
Or maybe I "professional" doesn't mean what I think it means.
That mercenaries thing sounds like a bad idea. With that you're going to have the RTS players weighing their resources and wondering if it'd be cheaper to simply wipe out the mercenaries as opposed to paying them off. Starcraft could actually do something like this thanks to the map editor. In starcraft 1 I've played a map where there was 2 teams for regular build up a base people, and there was a team where people would play as just a beefed up hero character. It worked then because people would set up a game specifically for that, and it was quite fun playing either team.
Seems that the RTS/FPS crossover would be more fun for the FPS players than the RTS ones. I wouldn't know, I've never bothered to play one myself, but I think I'd have a lot more fun picking up orders and doing missions from an actual human player that I can talk to to give me supplies to help me on my mission than sitting back and hoping that the guy I picked to do the job isn't a total dick and won't just take your money and run. Still, kinda adds some realism since the world is like that. People are dicks, there's no escaping that fact, and FPS players are probably the biggest dicks of them all; I should know, I am one.
It also brings into question of who has the real power here. I mean obviously the commander has command of all of his units and a base the size of Texas, but once a merc is involved then it's really the merc who calls the shots because they can just tell the commander to go screw themselves and sabotage the mission if the commander tries to push things too far. However, the commander is the one who has the cash and the stuff that the merc needs so there's a little bending to the commander's will to do if you want that shiny new gun, jet fighter, APC or tank.
It's kind of symbiotic and would work in theory, you've just got to know who to trust; which, as I said before, when it comes to FPS players that's no easy task.
It also brings into question of who has the real power here. I mean obviously the commander has command of all of his units and a base the size of Texas, but once a merc is involved then it's really the merc who calls the shots because they can just tell the commander to go screw themselves and sabotage the mission if the commander tries to push things too far. However, the commander is the one who has the cash and the stuff that the merc needs so there's a little bending to the commander's will to do if you want that shiny new gun, jet fighter, APC or tank.
It's kind of symbiotic and would work in theory, you've just got to know who to trust; which, as I said before, when it comes to FPS players that's no easy task.
I would totally play the proposed RTS, either as FPS or RTS mode. Strangely that harkens back to a Starcraft Custom Map. Where 2-4 RTS players would play the game normally, and everyone else is a mercenary, although controlling their character via the normal SC interface. However I think the drawback was that you couldn't just leave by yourself, you had to pick a side (Unless player 3 or 4 is missing, then the script is still there to join said side). The other was you had no choice in character, it depended on your slot.
There's another game, the name escapes me, where one player is in RTS control over an alien swarm while the marines/humans players worked as an FPS team against the RTS player.
Come to think of it, for the grand 'omniwargame', the RTS player could base in charge of a base and pump out additional troops to support everyone else as they wreck havoc across the battlefield.
There's another game, the name escapes me, where one player is in RTS control over an alien swarm while the marines/humans players worked as an FPS team against the RTS player.
Come to think of it, for the grand 'omniwargame', the RTS player could base in charge of a base and pump out additional troops to support everyone else as they wreck havoc across the battlefield.
I can see Yahtzee's game idea becoming a bit of a grind fest. It would be cool while it lasted though.