One Last look at Mass Effect 3.
- Thread starter Machine Man 1992
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Every gamer has a stake in what happened with ME3, every one of us. It's not about what outsiders expect of us, it's not about what the media says we are, it's not about what some talking heads on a 24 hour news network say we are, it's what we expect of our own hobby.DioWallachia said:
We've been so busy running around and protecting ourselves from the allegations that games cause murders, rapes, arsons, antisocial behavior, sexual deviancy and every other human ill under the sun, that we've been too busy to take a look in. We've always just assumed that yes, the games makers were a little different, but they were playing on the same team we are, we always assumed that the games journalists were gamers too and we didn't have to worry about the rot within, but it's there. It's all there. A suborned media apparatus, a corporate juggernaut, and practices that are accepted by the entirety of our community and yet decried and despised by everyone.
ME 3 brought up the spectre of 'Gamer entitlement' and there have been endless debates and arguments about what that means, and is it right or is it wrong and what kind of relationship there is between consumer and producer in the videogames market. It's a disturbing thing to think that the only people who considered gamers 'consumers' were Amazon and Steam. Everyone else automatically slotted gamers into the 'entilted whiners' in this affair, even other gamers. We liked to think that because the person behind the register at Gamestop played CoD that the company was on our side.
Perhaps that's one of the things that this did for us, shattered our cultural illusions. Broke that automatic thinking that if it has to do with games and they're for games, that they're on our side. We tended to think that EA was evil, but it was making games and producing what we wanted. We tended to think that we could trust the gaming media because they reviewed and played games too. We tended to think that we could trust the distributors like Gamestop and all the rest because gamers worked there. I suppose that's the deepest level of this for me, the shattering of the illusion of one cohesive gamer culture, that just because we were all in the same boat that we could trust each other, but we can't. We can't trust the developers, or the journalists, or the sales people.
(I realize that my terminology is a bit lowbrow i.e. 'gamers' but it's the language of the culture...)
I mean, this is the EA-ification of video games, right here:
I'm not sure I'll ever forgive them for having this pop up right after the ending. I think it would have rubbed me the wrong way even if the ending had been everything I wanted it to be. But as it was, it was Bioware twisting the knife.
What's more shameless is that they changed it with a patch.
I think there was a huge stalemate, when the dust settled last spring/summer. Some people made peace with it, others just moved on. Everyone was tired of talking about it.
It's weird, because a lot of people posted excellent deconstruction videos from months ago on the endings which I never saw, and it has been almost like re-experiencing all of my initial butt-hurt over the endings. Every time I see another reason that the endings are bad, and not bad because they disappointed fans, but bad from any perspective: game play design, plot writing, lore consistency, etc. And I realize that I never really got over it, I just got tired of talking about it.
I'm not sure I'll ever forgive them for having this pop up right after the ending. I think it would have rubbed me the wrong way even if the ending had been everything I wanted it to be. But as it was, it was Bioware twisting the knife.
What's more shameless is that they changed it with a patch.
I don't know that anyone got over it.Machine Man 1992 said:
I think there was a huge stalemate, when the dust settled last spring/summer. Some people made peace with it, others just moved on. Everyone was tired of talking about it.
It's weird, because a lot of people posted excellent deconstruction videos from months ago on the endings which I never saw, and it has been almost like re-experiencing all of my initial butt-hurt over the endings. Every time I see another reason that the endings are bad, and not bad because they disappointed fans, but bad from any perspective: game play design, plot writing, lore consistency, etc. And I realize that I never really got over it, I just got tired of talking about it.
We shouldn't just "let it go."Uszi said:
This was a Spoony-BETRAYAL-scream offense on Bioware's part, a complete violation of everything they stood for, a stark, unflinching warning of the dangers of hubris. To just let all this go, would be a massive disservice to everyone.
To let it go would imply some level of forgiveness; there can be no forgiveness, not for anything less than a return to the quality of the pre-EA Bioware. This needs to hang over, not just their heads, but the heads of all the corporate apologists who shattered our faith in games journalism field like a mark of shame.
I wish it never had to come to this.
I kinda disappointed with the ending at first.
But then I realized something.
What if the whole game is an ending?
All the choice you made in the first two game does matter.
Maybe Bioware keep their promises after all.
And none of us gamer didnt get it.
If this is true, then how heart broken do you think Ray Muzyka and Greg Zeschuk might feel.
Kinda sad that entire effort undone with that last ten minute.
*my Eng. suck.
But then I realized something.
What if the whole game is an ending?
All the choice you made in the first two game does matter.
Maybe Bioware keep their promises after all.
And none of us gamer didnt get it.
If this is true, then how heart broken do you think Ray Muzyka and Greg Zeschuk might feel.
Kinda sad that entire effort undone with that last ten minute.
*my Eng. suck.
Before the third game in the trilogy was released I asked myself "How will they end the game?". The only thing I could come up with was that there's some kind of prothean device hiding somewhere in the galaxy that would destroy the Reapers. Wipe everything clean (much like that convenient device from Gears of War 3). It wasn't a good idea, that was just what I thought would happen upon seeing no other logical direction to take.
I wasn't really expecting it though. Shouldn't they have thought of something a little less... primitive and unoriginal?
And yeah... the relationships between the characters (and the resolutions of such) were very anti-climactic, no where near the standard I was hoping for. I'm not the type to fall in love with game characters but it's hard not to get invested and some kind of satisfying ending is expected (ending for the character relationships not the actual ending). That was disappointing, though not without it's high points. Some parts were very enjoyable.
HOWEVER! I love Mass Effect 3. First time I played that game I'd been looking forward to it for months, the moment it all started I was involved in that plot more than any I'd been before. Yeah, I'll admit it... I didn't sleep or rest from start to finish.
That moment when the Reapers come down from the skies, the awesome sounds they made (with a good sound system) and the emotions that flood through your body when you leave Earth, when a friend dies or when a hard decision has to be made.
Mass Effect was Golden. Yes, the endings were disappointing, but they were fixed (for the most part). I'm still enjoying the multiplayer when bored but that doesn't mean I wouldn't forgo it for a more thorough single player experience.
One thing I won't forget was how divided everyone was over this whole 'incident' about the ending. Without taking one side or the other, the 'retakers' were slandered and bullied by critics and reviewers alike. Perhaps because they were considered the minority at the time. But everyone quickly shut the hell up when EA declared the 'extended cut'. Perhaps that'll show some to give others with a differing opinion some respect, or atleast be less critical of differing opinions.
TLDR?
Mass Effect 3 is a great game, and while it wasn't up to expectation that can be forgiven. Remember that games don't belong to you, they belong to those creating them. All you can really do is hold on tight and hope whatever you're expecting lives up to the standards you're wishing for. Mass Effect 3's ending fix was a once in a lifetime thing, and it shouldn't open the flood gates to demanding changes to published games. Only because of how great the game was, did we allow ourselves to take 'action'.
Merry Christmas
I wasn't really expecting it though. Shouldn't they have thought of something a little less... primitive and unoriginal?
And yeah... the relationships between the characters (and the resolutions of such) were very anti-climactic, no where near the standard I was hoping for. I'm not the type to fall in love with game characters but it's hard not to get invested and some kind of satisfying ending is expected (ending for the character relationships not the actual ending). That was disappointing, though not without it's high points. Some parts were very enjoyable.
HOWEVER! I love Mass Effect 3. First time I played that game I'd been looking forward to it for months, the moment it all started I was involved in that plot more than any I'd been before. Yeah, I'll admit it... I didn't sleep or rest from start to finish.
That moment when the Reapers come down from the skies, the awesome sounds they made (with a good sound system) and the emotions that flood through your body when you leave Earth, when a friend dies or when a hard decision has to be made.
Mass Effect was Golden. Yes, the endings were disappointing, but they were fixed (for the most part). I'm still enjoying the multiplayer when bored but that doesn't mean I wouldn't forgo it for a more thorough single player experience.
One thing I won't forget was how divided everyone was over this whole 'incident' about the ending. Without taking one side or the other, the 'retakers' were slandered and bullied by critics and reviewers alike. Perhaps because they were considered the minority at the time. But everyone quickly shut the hell up when EA declared the 'extended cut'. Perhaps that'll show some to give others with a differing opinion some respect, or atleast be less critical of differing opinions.
TLDR?
Mass Effect 3 is a great game, and while it wasn't up to expectation that can be forgiven. Remember that games don't belong to you, they belong to those creating them. All you can really do is hold on tight and hope whatever you're expecting lives up to the standards you're wishing for. Mass Effect 3's ending fix was a once in a lifetime thing, and it shouldn't open the flood gates to demanding changes to published games. Only because of how great the game was, did we allow ourselves to take 'action'.
Merry Christmas
Heh, you know what made things better for me?
I think it is the Kickstarter stuff I've been throwing my money at since then.
There's something really encouraging about developers eschewing publishers and going to the fans and answering to them. It's giving me a lot of hope for the future.
So my response to all the re-depression from how bad Mass Effect 3 was after re-reading this thread was watching this stuff:
And then there's also the stuff going on with the Day Z stand alone, which Dean Hall is a hero.
So it's encouraging to me that games are still being made and the interest of players are paramount in the production of those games, as opposed to anything EA does now which is purely to maximize corporate profit. EA is just as maximally cynical about game publishing as possible.
I think it is the Kickstarter stuff I've been throwing my money at since then.
There's something really encouraging about developers eschewing publishers and going to the fans and answering to them. It's giving me a lot of hope for the future.
So my response to all the re-depression from how bad Mass Effect 3 was after re-reading this thread was watching this stuff:
And then there's also the stuff going on with the Day Z stand alone, which Dean Hall is a hero.
So it's encouraging to me that games are still being made and the interest of players are paramount in the production of those games, as opposed to anything EA does now which is purely to maximize corporate profit. EA is just as maximally cynical about game publishing as possible.
Also, I lost respect for 'MovieBob'. Like all respect. Ever since he got on the defensive on EA's behalf his voice became whiny, his analysis of movies became pretty false and unrespectable and honestly.... I can't figure out why he got his job. He's not a critic, he's another man with another opinion about things. His reviews are so varied, concentrating on certain things in one movie and then doing the other way in the next review.
Next time you watch something he puts out... you should be a little more critical of his reviews, rather than accept them. They're not very intelligent IMHO.
Next time you watch something he puts out... you should be a little more critical of his reviews, rather than accept them. They're not very intelligent IMHO.
If there was one good thing about this whole debacle, it's that the controversy showed gamers exactly which outlets to avoid (due to their terrible handling and backlash against the fans). Kotaku ran a number of articles defending the ending and saying players didn't "get it", even in the face of mounting criticism (even from other publications like Forbes). MovieBob and FilmHulk rambled in favor of the garbage "artistic integrity" theory, while scores of people politely broke down their arguments. Colin Moriarty, Jessica Chobot and IGN had a reputation hit (at least in terms of their online profile) that they haven't been able to shake to date.
As I said earlier in this topic, I had never seen a gaming controversy that led to publications like Forbes and The New Yorker defending the fan backlash and trashing Bioware for their poor tactics, while the "gaming media" (the people you'd think would have the interests of the public at heart) blindly defended the idiocy and downright disingenuous culture at Bioware.
As I said earlier in this topic, I had never seen a gaming controversy that led to publications like Forbes and The New Yorker defending the fan backlash and trashing Bioware for their poor tactics, while the "gaming media" (the people you'd think would have the interests of the public at heart) blindly defended the idiocy and downright disingenuous culture at Bioware.
But if this "tragedy" didnt happened then we wouldnt know who are out real enemies.........and now we know. These game journalist have failed us for the last time, but we need the power of the masses in our side first to MAKE THEM realise their mistake. And i think we should start by clearing our names:Machine Man 1992 said:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2012/12/21/while-nra-blames-video-games-during-press-conference-another-mass-shooting-takes-place-in-pennsylvania/
No matter the cost. Even if we have to defend ME3 JUST to drive the point across games are not Brown Notes waitinig to mindfuck our children. The more people we reason with the better and possibly we can even get help to understand games as art once all this PR nightmare ends. We are not going to stab ME3 at every chance like the so called entitled monsters we are, we recognice it suckiness but never its murder simulator tendensies without proof.
We are civilized and logical human beings, goddammit!!
OT:Isnt it ironic that the worst scene of ME3, the forced "i care for diz kid from Earth" trauma that goes against everything pre-stablished from Shep character, is singlehandely the one that shows that you are not playing as a Spycho trying to kill children, and therefore, the most valid defense among many others?
pokkuti said:
well considering the game plays out the exact same way no matter what choices you made, bar some slightly different conversations im still dissapointed and in fact this annoyed me long before the ending
EAware...that pretty much sums it up for me. After playing Mass Effect 2, I thought to myself "why is this game trying to appeal to a wider market?" I remember thinking that Bioware was a "good developer" that made RPG's that had good depth to them and appealed to the hero in us all in many of its games. I recently bought and replayed the first Mass Effect and while the combat didn't age well, it's still better than Mass Effect 2 which was basically a action RPG, with dumbed down character customization and skill system. The upgrades for your weapons and armor was massive and while at times an annoyance to sort through, you could see (or at least I could) that in future sequels when they improved on the idea, that it would make for an interesting Science Fiction RPG. Then EA came along and bought Bioware, this is when I believe they sold out. After playing Mass Effect 2, I thought to myself, " I have no interest to play Mass Effect 3, the end boss in this games looked like a giant robotic skeleton and seemed to be a throwaway final boss that had zero effort put into its design or explanation." Remember trying to talk Saren down, then watching him shoot himself in a moment of self-realization of what he had done? To me it seemed like this could only get better, the combat would get refined, the inventory management would be improved upon, and all the things that were done perfectly would remain. Instead they removed all of the things they thought were detracting from the game. All of the equipment options, were boiled down to three slots. Skills were stripped down to a few things, as well as attributes. Sure the dialogue and companion relationship dillemas were still there but even the storyline seemed to be on a heart monitor. I was so disillusioned with what they did to a game that seemed like it could only get better that, I had (and have) no interest in playing the third installment.Akarezik said:
I think the main reason the Indoctrination Theory was somewhat believable is because of the Destroy ending where Shepard survives.
This ending as well as the other two were changed in the extended cut(so much for artistic integrity) to make things seem less grim for the survivors of the invasion. Here are the reasons Shep's survival is hard to believe: He gets partially hit by Harbinger's beam and is bleeding heavily for the next 10-15 minutes, gets shot by Marauder Shields, the Destroy ending machine blows up in his face, the Destroy option was supposed to destroy the many implants in his body from the last time he died, the Citadel blows up, he burns up on re-entry to Earth's atmosphere, and hits the ground. Those last two are assumptions based on the cutscene in the original ending showing the Citadel breaking up in a series of massive explosions and the breathing scene showing the presence of gravity and air, the EC changed this so that the Citadel remains mostly intact(same for the mass relays).
In the face of all that seeing Shepard take a breath could make anyone suspicious of the events leading up to it(along with the huge shift in tone and pacing that accompanied those events).
Aside from the bitterness of seeing the EC changing significant details about the ending without changing everything, I think it was an improvement.
My impression of ME3 now is 'meh', I don't really care anymore. Considering ME1 was the reason I bought my Xbox360 that really means something. The ending debacle broke my confidence in Bioware, and honestly I don't think their reputation will recover from this.
This ending as well as the other two were changed in the extended cut(so much for artistic integrity) to make things seem less grim for the survivors of the invasion. Here are the reasons Shep's survival is hard to believe: He gets partially hit by Harbinger's beam and is bleeding heavily for the next 10-15 minutes, gets shot by Marauder Shields, the Destroy ending machine blows up in his face, the Destroy option was supposed to destroy the many implants in his body from the last time he died, the Citadel blows up, he burns up on re-entry to Earth's atmosphere, and hits the ground. Those last two are assumptions based on the cutscene in the original ending showing the Citadel breaking up in a series of massive explosions and the breathing scene showing the presence of gravity and air, the EC changed this so that the Citadel remains mostly intact(same for the mass relays).
In the face of all that seeing Shepard take a breath could make anyone suspicious of the events leading up to it(along with the huge shift in tone and pacing that accompanied those events).
Aside from the bitterness of seeing the EC changing significant details about the ending without changing everything, I think it was an improvement.
My impression of ME3 now is 'meh', I don't really care anymore. Considering ME1 was the reason I bought my Xbox360 that really means something. The ending debacle broke my confidence in Bioware, and honestly I don't think their reputation will recover from this.
My problem with the game is almost every setpiece in it (much like most of BW's output these days) is a double-edged sword.Falsename said:
Earth has fallen? Who cares - we never got to visit it in the prior games, and the narrative gives us no reason to care, especially if Shepard is a Spacer or Colonist. Tragic casualties? Too bad it's wrapped in quite possibly the most emotionally-manipulative plot device (the kid) in any game this year. Cerberus is the main villain? They're led by TIM, who's done a complete 180 from the previous games and become a scenery-chewing villain.
I could go on and on all day. The point is that, if it was a standalone game, I'd probably be more forgiving of it. As the sequel to a series that relied near-solely on continuity, exploration, importing and lore, it's a complete failure. It railroads every Shepard, no matter what his or her alignment/morality/decisions were, into a linear narrative that treats past decisions with the same gravity that the points on Whose Line Is It Anyway? are - they don't matter. Add to that a number of broken gameplay mechanics, dialogue and missions (some of which, to date, still haven't been fixed) and you'll see why there's still a backlash months later.
The only thing the EC really did was fix a couple of plot holes, while introducing new ones at the same time (see my point above). Shepard's squadmates get rescued? Too bad it comes at the cost of the Normandy suddenly being able to teleport and sit in the middle of a warzone while Harbinger (who's been picking off troops with precision up to this point) does nothing to stop them. Shepard's love interest puts up Admiral Anderson's plaque on the memorial wall? How does he/she know Anderson is dead and not Shepard in the Destroy-Plus ending? It makes the Synthesis ending (which was already absurd in the original ending) downright hilarious in the EC.
Other than that, it was just more elaboration on the same silly arguments that the game tried to foist on the player ("we have to kill organics to save organics", "synthetics are evil", etc.)
As I said earlier in this thread (five pages back), it's nine months later, and the backlash is almost as strong as when it started. Just about every account of the game, even if it's good, has to be qualified with "well, the ending sucked, but..." It's cognitive dissonance in effect for the entire fanbase. The franchise's rep is in tatters.
That's a fallacy. If that was really the case, we wouldn't have had Sherlock Holmes survive the Reichenbach Falls, or any movie in history that received a negative reaction from test audiences having parts changed, or Fallout 3 having its ending changed to allow the PC to survive.
They can hide behind their "artistic integrity" excuse all they want, but if it does (and did) result in a fracturing of the fanbase like it did with ME3, then they'll be shut down just like all of the other studios EA has taken behind a woodshed and executed. They should have taken their lumps and apologized (like the Dragon Age II team did) and worked to satisfy their fanbase over the last nine months. Instead, the only thing they did was adopt this "boohoo, woe is me" attitude and cry to everyone who would listen (like the gaming blogs) that their fanbase "just didn't get it", while simultaneously trying to mitigate the damage in future DLC's via retconning.
There is no other example I can think of this year regarding a company who so callously destroyed its own franchise via apathy and non-action.
crazyrabbits said:
You make some great points (that damn kid included, I guess I mentally blocked that one out. Haha) but we have to remember that everything you pointed out is more opinion than fact.
Which is why everything was so divided towards change/don't change. Everyone's different, everyone appreciates something things that others overlook and vice versa. You do make some good points of course, and there is a lot that has to be overlooked to consider ME3 a great game, but even without overlooking it's at the very least a good game.
I often find that over-examining anything, be it a video game/movie or even a poem, it's like chopping down a tree. You can't re-build that tree once you've dismantled it. If you look at all the imperfections that's all you can see from now on. Concentrate on the good. Like... uh, that moment you Save the Krogans (if you did). Tell me that wasn't awesome. And the music! Best music in a game I've ever heard!
I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm going to assume you're not saying I am either.
Alright, point out where my "opinion" is. I'm very careful when I write out replies on this subject, because I ground everything in objective facts and figures.Falsename said:
That's not the vibe I've gotten over the last nine months. Considering where this site was then (which I rightly pointed out several pages back), finding someone who legitimately likes the game and isn't being facetious is very rare.
The first time I saw the game in action, I was stunned at how badly they botched the narrative - there's nothing quite like 500 people watching a pre-release livestream of the game and collectively laughing at it the entire way through. Even now, the scant few outlets that gave it "RPG/Game of the Year" still qualify it with, "Well, the ending sucked, and it had problems, but yay for Bioware!" It is, quite possibly, the largest disconnect between the media and fans I've seen in quite a long time.
Well, for one thing, half the music in ME3 was recycled from 1 and 2. Clint Mansell contributed a whopping two pieces to the game, and Sam Hulick did the rest. I mean, yeah, it was still good, but it didn't have much power over 1 and 2 besides a handful of standout tracks.
That said, you can criticize a game and still enjoy it. There is nothing wrong with pointing out a game's flaws if you still actively want to play it. It's when you ignore those problems, to the detriment of the narrative, that you run into problems. From just about every conceivable standpoint, the game was a step backwards from the prior installments.
Sure, Tuchanka and Rannoch were good-to-great, and they were...what, 6 missions total in the grand scheme of things? The planet scanning mechanic was just a holdover from 2. The N7 missions were just the multiplayer maps repurposed. All the fetch quests involved eavesdropping on people and scanning a planet to get a random item - it is, comparatively, nowhere near the depth or breadth of content accessible in ME2.
You do understand what an 'opinion' is don't you? Saying that "ME3 Sucks because of these reasons:...." is an opinion, in it's entirety. There's nothing factual about what you've said, it's ALL opinion.crazyrabbits said:
And I'm not sure if you're trying to change my mind or just tell me I'm wrong, but either way it wouldn't make sense to do so. I thoroughly enjoy ME3, and I'm not telling people why they should as well. I'm just expressing what I enjoyed.
So you have your opinions (and that's exactly what they are) and I have my own. Don't get too worked up over it like many others do, just accept we're two different people who like different things.
Yeah, that is really one of the major problems. There was plenty of stuff to choose from the previous games that Shepard and the player had an already established connection to. I mean, just listen to the ambient sounds and music from the nightmare sequences:crazyrabbits said:
It really makes you wonder why the dreams couldn't be centred more around Shepard's fallen friends. Instead of chasing the ghost of the stupid kid, they could have used the Vimire casualty as the ghost. Have the moments actually carry some weight.
But, no. Instead it was this forced connection to the kid and the Earth (even Earthborn Shepard wouldn't be very found of the place, as it was where s/he lead a troubled life of poverty and crime before jumping at the first chance to run away away with the Alliance), resulting in these very forced, obliviously manipulative moments that are just short of big, red, flashing letters on the screen spelling "FEEL SAD NOW!"
EDIT: Come to think of it: In retrospect, Mass Effect 3 actually seems a bit hostile to the idea of player involvement and agency. Besides what I just wrote, there is also Shepard being less of a player avatar, and the increased level of auto-dialogue.
The game was amazing, I loved it and played it non stop until I was finished, I even liked the multiplayer.
But the ending made no goddamn sense and I haven't played it since. I think that shows me how much I hated the ending as I love Mass Effect (I;m even subscribed to the comic). I haven't even been able to summon enough enthusiasm to play the DLC's.
The only thing that could reawaken any interest for me would be a post reaper attack game. Because I just don't see how anything could have continued after the Mass Relays were destroyed.
But the ending made no goddamn sense and I haven't played it since. I think that shows me how much I hated the ending as I love Mass Effect (I;m even subscribed to the comic). I haven't even been able to summon enough enthusiasm to play the DLC's.
The only thing that could reawaken any interest for me would be a post reaper attack game. Because I just don't see how anything could have continued after the Mass Relays were destroyed.
I think the problem with the human reaper mostly had to do with the change in writers from ME1 to ME2 to ME3 (ie: ME1 being Drew Karpyshyn alone, Mac Walters coming in for ME2 and then taking over completely for ME3). From the stuff I've read, the human reaper (and indeed many of the other plot elements of ME2, such as the Haestrom section and the Collectors abducting humans specifically) would have made a lot more sense if Karpyshyn's original plot had been stuck to.BrionJames said:
Whether people would have liked his ending more than the Mac Walters / Casey Hudson one is another question, I guess, but he at least had answers for a lot of those leftover ME2 issues.