Open Letter to People Who Make Games

mjc0961

YOU'RE a pie chart.
Nov 30, 2009
3,847
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Excellent article, Russ. Hopefully the people who need to hear this will be reading it and will take it seriously.

Raithnor said:
The Gentleman said:
Okay, now the minimum question that is burning deep in the back of our minds: what three games were you specifically referring to? Telling us they were AAA titles and from reputable studio's is kind of like saying it was a fish from a lake. Plus, there's been a shitload of poor games out this year, so you're going to have to be very specific...
If I had to hazard a guess: Fallout: NV, Civ V, and Halo: Reach Not sure about the last one though.
I was thinking Fable 3 for Microsoft myself. I've only read two reviews from sites I generally trust (I'm not interested in the game, I just felt like reading them because they were there) and both had at least a paragraph mentioning the bugs.

Bruce Edwards said:
And I've been playing Reach a fair amount and haven't seen any bugs thus far. Or are there other AAA's that have come from MS in the last few weeks?
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/editorials/reviews/8249-Review-Fable-3
Note "Publisher: Microsoft" at the end.
 

Zamn

New member
Apr 18, 2009
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New Vegas and Civ V are obvious (from the pictures in the article if nothing else; Civ V isn't really that buggy, although definitely unfinished). I'm guessing the last one is Fable 3 judging by the complaints about bugs in today's review.
 

magicmonkeybars

Gullible Dolt
Nov 20, 2007
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I call bullshit Mr. Pitts.
If you're looking for someone to blame look no further than yourself.

Don't blame the people trying to make a dollar when they take advantage of an all to eager and spoiled fan base.

Minecraft is a perfect example of this, people are more than willing to buy a game that's still in the alpha phase of it's development.
The only difference between say Civilization 5 and minecraft is that 2K isn't willing to admit that they're selling a barely beta version of their game.

Who to blame is the consumer who pays for games and supports the diseased industry letting it continue on as it has.
Every copy of Madden 2011 people buy is a nail in the coffin of gaming industies creativity and honesty towards its customers.

I dare say it's your job as a gaming journalist to help the consumer make a educated purchase.
The industry is dying because everyone is interdependant on each other consumers on reviewers, reviewers on advertizing that publishers use to sell games to consumers.

The industry will only fix itself when people STOP BUYING THE GODDAMN CRAP THAT IS BEING PUBLISHED!
 

Wrds

Dyslexic Wonder
Sep 4, 2008
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I can't help but wonder if this letter will reach the eyes of those it is most directed at. I have never felt more cheated from buying a game than I have this year, and Mr. Pitts words truly resonated with me.

Here's hoping.
 

Midniqht

Beer Quaffer
Jul 10, 2009
523
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My only guess as to one of the 3 games he was referring to was Fallout: New Vegas. While I haven't had any bug problems with it, I can understand the rage from that have experienced quite the opposite.

uppitycracker said:
I'm talking about companies like Bethesda, 2K and Microsoft. These are companies with reputations for quality.
I'm sorry, I stopped reading right there. These are companies that are known for putting out quality games. When people say quality games, they mean REALLY GOOD games, not BUG FREE games. If anything, these companies have reputations of putting out initially VERY BUGGY games. And yes, while this is an issue, don't point the finger at game developers. Point it at publishers, because they are the ones setting the release dates and pushing for faster releases without as much time for QA.
Why stop reading? While publishers really push the release dates, there are steps that can be taken to push those dates back to better polish the games. It happens all the time. It's not always a clear cut "It's out now or never" decision. The publisher is not 100% at fault. It shouldn't matter what company he name-drops. Bethesda, Microsoft, whatever... if a game comes out and it breaks enough to be unplayable, then it's still someone's fault. No game is perfect, but in this case, like you said, these companies are known for making good games, which means their games should have these bugs worked out to a tee. It's like no one actually sat down and played the game at all. As gamers, we don't pay to be beta testers of a game. We pay for a FINISHED product.
 

EscapeGoat_v1legacy

New member
Aug 20, 2008
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Well said, Mr. Pitts. Well said.

I'm not sure why game developers release buggy games. You'd think they would pick up on it during the beta testing, and it doesn't seem like it'd be particularly rewarding to release a buggy game to your fanbase, and then make them wait after buying it so they can play it properly.

You couldn't get away with releasing buggy games in the days before consoles could connect to the net and download patches set up by the companies, so why are bug-riddled games strewn throughout the market these days? My guess - laziness, maybe. Harsh deadlines, perhaps. A lack of care, possibly. I don't know. But it has to stop, and no-one has said this better so far than you, Russ. Bravo. You tell 'em.

Latinidiot said:
Anyway, I think he should mail it to those guys.
He should. It'd be interesting to see the response, at the very least.
 

Varewulf

Nosgoth Fanboy
Oct 22, 2009
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Well said, mr Pitts. Or rather, well written.

I've been pondering this issue a lot myself, none the least why we as gamers put up with this? I don't buy many games on day one any longer, I rather wait and hear what other people say about it.

Story and gameplay are up for interpretation based on tastes, but bugs are bad all around.
 

magicmonkeybars

Gullible Dolt
Nov 20, 2007
908
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Midnight0000 said:
My only guess as to one of the 3 games he was referring to was Fallout: New Vegas. While I haven't had any bug problems with it, I can understand the rage from that have experienced quite the opposite.

uppitycracker said:
I'm talking about companies like Bethesda, 2K and Microsoft. These are companies with reputations for quality.
I'm sorry, I stopped reading right there. These are companies that are known for putting out quality games. When people say quality games, they mean REALLY GOOD games, not BUG FREE games. If anything, these companies have reputations of putting out initially VERY BUGGY games. And yes, while this is an issue, don't point the finger at game developers. Point it at publishers, because they are the ones setting the release dates and pushing for faster releases without as much time for QA.
Why stop reading? While publishers really push the release dates, there are steps that can be taken to push those dates back to better polish the games. It happens all the time. It's not always a clear cut "It's out now or never" decision. The publisher is not 100% at fault. It shouldn't matter what company he name-drops. Bethesda, Microsoft, whatever... if a game comes out and it breaks enough to be unplayable, then it's still someone's fault. No game is perfect, but in this case, like you said, these companies are known for making good games, which means their games should have these bugs worked out to a tee. It's like no one actually sat down and played the game at all. As gamers, we don't pay to be beta testers of a game. We pay for a FINISHED product.
What you buy is code not game, it doesn't have to work, they're not selling you a working product, they're selling a dvd with code on it, try reading that licensing argeement that people always ignore.
The developer isn't under ANY kind of obligation to "fix" the product they sell, that happens because the developers usually care about their audience/product not because of some legal obligation to sell a working game.
Obviously if they did have to sell a working fool proof game they'd never publish anything.
 

Spencer Petersen

New member
Apr 3, 2010
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Tiamat666 said:
I'm thinking that perhaps releasing unfinished games is part of a strategy against piracy. Gamers always want the most recent, shiniest version of a game. One of the greatest advantages of owning a legitimate copy is the automatic update or otherwise seamless patching of a game. Pirates on the other hand are impeded from patching and usually will have to wait for weeks until a new crack is released, being stuck with all the old bugs for much longer than legitimate users.
But treating their clients like this just to mildly annoy some pirates is simply unacceptable. Fighting piracy is a lost cause, Assassins Creed 2 taught us that, but punishing everyone for the acts of few is TERRIBLE business strategy. Its like Walmart announcing they will be doing body cavity searches on all costumers in an effort to prevent shoplifting. Patches need to extend the life of a game, not make it work in the first place.
 

omicron1

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Mar 26, 2008
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In the games industry, one rise is constant: Graphics go up.
With that in mind, keeping a similar income vs. team size vs. dev time equation (adjusting for inflation, of course), something must give.

For many games, it's the length. People don't make twenty-hour epics any more, because twenty hour epics just aren't feasible.
And when they do make these gigantic, open-ended games, something else has to go. In most cases, it's polish, and more particularly, bugtesting. Simply put, all game development is based on linear equations: You put more in, you get more out. The amount going in isn't increasing, so if you want to increase one of the outputs, you have to dial back on another one.

There are plenty of examples of this rule: Blizzard tends to put in time and budget in unlimited quantities, and the games that come out are just about as close to the optimal output as possible. Activision puts full budget into its Call of Duty games, but limits the time. The Call of Duty franchise copes by cutting game length.
2K, however, really doesn't have any excuse with Civ V. Firaxis makes hit games. They have plenty of budget, and plenty of time. They even have prior code that could have been used to fix some of the problems. (Multiplayer especially) They were lazy. That's the only conclusion I can draw.

Here, let's formulize it:
Input=Content Budget+Crew*Time
Output=graphics+content+sound+polish
Output<=Input


Thus:
Graphics+Content+Sound+Polish<=Content Budget+Crew*Time

That is all.
 

BeyondTheVoid

New member
Nov 9, 2009
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I agree with a lot of the points made on this letter, and understand that major companies have much less of an excuse to put out these incomplete and broken games, but the devs aren't always the ones to blame.
Changing designs, unreasonable clients, and most of all time and money constraints affect the outcome of a game greatly.
I worked for a small games company for about 8 months, and during that time I was met with a hail of unreasonable requests. As much as you try and make a game a labour of love, sometimes the people with the power just don't care. They'd rather try and recoup some money, rather than spend more to make it work. If they get complaints, they shove it back in front of you with the list of complaints, despite your earlier warnings.
Now my experience was only with a start up student company with less than ten people working for it. So I'm not going to sit here and defend Microsoft, 2K and Bethesda, they'll have their own reasons for shoving out the games unfinished, however unsatisfying those answers may be. I wish every game could run on Valve time, so that the games we played were complete experiences.
I'll be the first one to complain when a game breaks, or when a menu looks or functions awfully. As a programmer, it's easy to sit back and say 'well that would have been easy to solve, I'd have just done this'. Sometimes the new flashy feature just takes priority over the fact that the AI gets stuck against a wall on a certain level.
Everyone goes into the industry idealistic and fresh faced, but only the lucky few get a chance to make the games to the standard that they want, some problems are unavoidable.
Just a different perspective, I've barely dipped my toes in the true working world of the games industry, but I know some of the trials.
 

SaintWaldo

Interzone Vagabond
Jun 10, 2008
923
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mjc0961 said:
Excellent article, Russ. Hopefully the people who need to hear this will be reading it and will take it seriously.

Raithnor said:
The Gentleman said:
Okay, now the minimum question that is burning deep in the back of our minds: what three games were you specifically referring to? Telling us they were AAA titles and from reputable studio's is kind of like saying it was a fish from a lake. Plus, there's been a shitload of poor games out this year, so you're going to have to be very specific...
If I had to hazard a guess: Fallout: NV, Civ V, and Halo: Reach Not sure about the last one though.
I was thinking Fable 3 for Microsoft myself. I've only read two reviews from sites I generally trust (I'm not interested in the game, I just felt like reading them because they were there) and both had at least a paragraph mentioning the bugs.

Bruce Edwards said:
And I've been playing Reach a fair amount and haven't seen any bugs thus far. Or are there other AAA's that have come from MS in the last few weeks?
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/editorials/reviews/8249-Review-Fable-3
Note "Publisher: Microsoft" at the end.
Anyone else notice the article has screenshots of Civ and F3NV, but not the MS title? Any reason, there certainly seems to be enough room for a third screenshot?

Not that it means anything, but, hm.
 

Casimir_Effect

New member
Aug 26, 2010
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magicmonkeybars said:
I call bullshit Mr. Pitts.
If you're looking for someone to blame look no further than yourself.

Don't blame the people trying to make a dollar when they take advantage of an all to eager and spoiled fan base.

Minecraft is a perfect example of this, people are more than willing to buy a game that's still in the alpha phase of it's development.
The only difference between say Civilization 5 and minecraft is that 2K isn't willing to admit that they're selling a barely beta version of their game.

Who to blame is the consumer who pays for games and supports the diseased industry letting it continue on as it has.
Every copy of Madden 2011 people buy is a nail in the coffin of gaming industies creativity and honesty towards its customers.

I dare say it's your job as a gaming journalist to help the consumer make a educated purchase.
The industry is dying because everyone is interdependant on each other consumers on reviewers, reviewers on advertizing that publishers use to sell games to consumers.

The industry will only fix itself when people STOP BUYING THE GODDAMN CRAP THAT IS BEING PUBLISHED!
My thoughts exactly, or at least pretty much exactly. If people were more inquisitive before dropping money on a game, or were more demanding with the quality of the final product we would not be in this place.

Must admit a part of me finds it funny that bugs affect consoles in a major way now. I remember the time when they only hurt PC gamers and the lack of bugs was always held up as an example as to the superiority of console gaming. But now our Xboxs and Playstations have hard drives along with near permanent net connections with means installing and patching is once again the order of play. Unfortunately though, there are no modders for consoles so that nice third party unofficial game support which you get on PC does not exist.

Which may be a good thing in actual fact. I'm sure certain developers are happier to release their games unfinished solely because they expect some fans to plug the gaps for them. They still make loads of money as the game is heralded as great (when modded, a phrase which will always be attached to the game and few will realise its significance) ensuring a sequel. So at least developers are forced to make patches to fix game breakers for consoles, else there would be major protests going on.

I guess the main thing is we're all in it together now - console and pc and combo gamer alike. Now if only we would stop enabling the publishers through fanboyism and blind faith.
 

RvLeshrac

This is a Forum Title.
Oct 2, 2008
662
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magicmonkeybars said:
What you buy is code not game, it doesn't have to work, they're not selling you a working product, they're selling a dvd with code on it, try reading that licensing argeement that people always ignore.
The developer isn't under ANY kind of obligation to "fix" the product they sell, that happens because the developers usually care about their audience/product not because of some legal obligation to sell a working game.
Obviously if they did have to sell a working fool proof game they'd never publish anything.
No one demands an absolutely perfect, bug-free game.

What they demand is a game that is *playable*, from beginning to end. That means "No bugs which prevent you from ever entering an area of the game," and "No bugs which completely halt progression of the primary campaign."
 

Delock

New member
Mar 4, 2009
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It's really annoying to preorder a game these days only to find it's broken. It's part of the reason I don't preorder unless I know I want the game no matter what. You can offer all you want as bonuses (ok, if you get to the point where you offer enough bonus stuff, especially nonDLC stuff, that MIGHT be different, but only if I was feeling really good about the game in question), but if I keep having to question "Will it play on the first day, or will it need a patch that I'd be better off waiting for?" I'm not going to jump at preorder opportunities.

Also, Russ, great point with the Atari crash. Sure E.T. is often blamed for it, but looking back, a lot of those games were broken. Is this what we're headed towards? A shinier, better looking market where a huge expected game crashes due to glitches and the market gets crippled.

Look, I absolutely love games and have grown up with them. I've suffered through some horrible glitches in otherwise great games, some of which are never fixed since there was no other way than to rerelease it. I don't mind getting a few glitches ironed out here and there, but broken games are just unacceptable. I'm paying $60 for a new game here. Look, you guys are complaining about piracy, yet your day one consumers, your loyal customers who have supported you are the ones you're screwing over here. And even then, for people like up until recently me who don't connect online for a variety of reasons will forever have a game that is unfinished.

The ability to patch a game should be at most a gift rather than something to be depended on. I am paying for an experience when I buy, and I often go out of my way to buy new just to support you guys. Don't betray me by skimping on debugging.

Remember, there are a lot of things gamers these days don't notice, but you can bet that they'll notice the absence of them instantly. Debugging/polishing/play testing/whatever you want to call it is one of those things.
 

Stevepinto3

New member
Jun 4, 2009
585
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magicmonkeybars said:
The developer isn't under ANY kind of obligation to "fix" the product they sell, that happens because the developers usually care about their audience/product not because of some legal obligation to sell a working game.
They do it because no one is going to buy from them again if their games have massive bugs and they don't fix it. Technically, yes, you do just pay for the code. But let's put down our law books and be realistic here.

Obviously if they did have to sell a working fool proof game they'd never publish anything.
And no one is asking for a perfect, bug-free game. Straw-manning the point doesn't change the fact that these games are buggier than average.
 

Crunchy English

Victim of a Savage Neck-bearding
Aug 20, 2008
779
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Ok, first, I really dislike this article. The sentimentality has no place and just makes it look like you don't have a strong enough point. "I really like you guys, so you just have to trust me when I say you're screwing up." The fact is, Fallout:NV had some awful bugs and this is making a mountain out of a molehill. This isn't an industry-wide epidemic, its one poorly put together game. The real reason you don't name the other gamers specifically? To avoid let people discuss it, because most people would find Civ 5, or Fable 3, or Reach or any of the other titles mentioned here to be completely playable.

Covering a weak argument with sentimentality and false modesty? Yellow journalism and bad form.

Second - Fallout: NV was awful but Obsidian, as Shamus Young points out a little below your article on the main page, has an awful reputation as being hacks. None of their games has ever been released in working order. They aren't A-list, they might not even be B-list. They certainly aren't "respected for quality". You just twisted facts to make an article out of nothing.
 
Oct 18, 2008
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Well, I keep several of my friends informed on what games to buy, and I have been telling all of them they are best off to wait for GOTY or Platinum editions, which typically include all the bug fixes. So I know for a fact that I have hindered sales of new games, and I will continue to recommend the same, as many of my friends are not online, so are not able to get patches for their games on the 360.
 

ezeroast

New member
Jan 25, 2009
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Had no problems with Fallout:NV
Although I did get it 3 days after the USA and there was a patch, shock horror!!