Our Covid Response

Satinavian

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 30, 2016
1,163
363
88
Jobs pay what they are worth and what is affordable to the owner of the business. The employee agrees to that pay rate and that is the end of it. If the employee needs more, get a different job or a second one.
Yes, people should get a different job. But not after working there for years, instead they shouldn't even start.

If a buissness isn't profitable without such low wages, maybe it just shouldn't exist. Instead of keeping this low wage sector alife, one should either push for automatisation or close it completely. The workforce is better used where it is actually needed and where people are quite willing to spend more for the work done.
 

CriticalGaming

Elite Member
Legacy
Dec 28, 2017
8,646
3,535
118
I mean you already actually believe those people aren't entitled to earn enough to live because they're filthy minimum wage employees. The main difference between my post and yours is I was joking.
Show me a solution to your wage increase suggestion then. One thing nobody has done in this thread is offered alternative solutions. Instead everyone has just cried, "Oh you just hate poor people dont you? reee!"

Okay so change my mind. Show me an answer that is more detailed than "just give people money".
 

CriticalGaming

Elite Member
Legacy
Dec 28, 2017
8,646
3,535
118
Yes, people should get a different job. But not after working there for years, instead they shouldn't even start.
Agreed if you feel you are worth more and can bring something to the table to earn more money then absolutely. It really isn't hard to become a manager at a fast food place, just prove you have a little work ethic and can be a little responsible. It's not that hard, I know because I've done it several times at most major fast food chains.

If a buissness isn't profitable without such low wages, maybe it just shouldn't exist. Instead of keeping this low wage sector alife, one should either push for automatisation or close it completely. The workforce is better used where it is actually needed and where people are quite willing to spend more for the work done.
Well then that would vaporize pretty much every fast food place, gamestops, department stores. Or like you said pushes for automation which still screws over the minimum wage worker because they have nothing to offer a company to justify the increase in pay.
 

Satinavian

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 30, 2016
1,163
363
88
Well then that would vaporize pretty much every fast food place, gamestops, department stores. Or like you said pushes for automation which still screws over the minimum wage worker because they have nothing to offer a company to justify the increase in pay.
Yes, that is a thing that should happen.

Of course it also should be accompanied with subsidized qualification options for all those ex fast food workers to learn something the society actually values. And with a social security net that should have been in place anyway.
 
  • Like
Reactions: MrCalavera

Seanchaidh

Elite Member
Legacy
Mar 21, 2009
4,626
2,527
118
Country
United States of America
Jobs pay what they are worth and what is affordable to the owner of the business.
No. This was debunked earlier in the thread.

No it's not at all. This is basic economics.

The value to the employer is the ceiling on any employee's wage. Employee compensation can be anywhere below that ceiling. And technically it can go above it, although it leads to bankruptcy if it remains there for long on average over the whole company.
 

CriticalGaming

Elite Member
Legacy
Dec 28, 2017
8,646
3,535
118
Yes, that is a thing that should happen.

Of course it also should be accompanied with subsidized qualification options for all those ex fast food workers to learn something the society actually values. And with a social security net that should have been in place anyway.
Perfect, but my question to you in a follow up to that is....Why do those workers have to wait to be FORCED to learn something that has value? Why not do it now while still holding a job? We shouldn't need automation to force people's hands, which is the point I've been trying to explain for pages and pages now.
 

Buyetyen

Elite Member
May 11, 2020
2,787
2,016
118
Country
USA
1950 per day over 365 days a year means that ONE subway location brings in about $730K a year. Let's say you need 8 total employee's making a "livable" wage of 50K/year
And there's the first problem in your math: you don't know what a living wage is. For most places, between $15-20/hour should cut it. So about $32k annually.

The second problem is the assumption that people would not eat out more often if they had more disposable income.

The third problem is that you're thinking exactly like a shitty businessman. Raise costs! Raise them and never pay your employees what they're worth! Back in the 90's, McDonald's saved their chains millions of dollars collectively simply by ordering their straws 1 millimeter shorter. They order them in that large a volume.

In small businesses, it's better to have a lean, well-trained and compensated staff because they're more productive and motivated. Unfortunately, a lot of entrepreneurs think like you do. They cut costs, payroll included, to the point of sacrificing service, have shit turnover rates, and end up making less as a result. And people wonder why most small businesses close within a year. Between that and demand being depressed due to stagnant wages, it's no wonder we're looking down the barrel of monopolies and oligopolies.
 

Trunkage

Nascent Orca
Legacy
Jun 21, 2012
7,863
2,373
118
Brisbane
Gender
Cyborg
I'm glad to see you are finally starting to understand.

You see what you don't understand about this whole "Starting a business thing" Is that unlike that employee who you think is making shit wages, the "owner" is busting their ass off AND taking all the risk. Did the employee put their house on the line for a business? If business is slow does that employee have to worry about the shop closing down? Does the employee have to pay the building's rent? Buy the supplies? Pay the gas bill? Electric bill?

No, the employee gets to go home worry free and B**** about how much they hate their job without carrying any of the responsibility of caring for that business. Not to mention the vast majority of small business owners are in that business 6+ days a week husslin they asses off to make it work. You think Gordon Ramsey didn't grind for his restaurants? Sure the man aint gotta grind in a kitchen these days, but that mother fucker is still grinding every fucking day, between running his company AND do like 83 TV shows. But you gonna sit there and call him the asshole for making all that money he is earning? Me thinks you might wanna just check yourself.
Just gotta point out that if an owner is 'busting ass', then I dont see much of a problem. i.e. I'm generally for small business

The problem is that many owner don't bust any ass. In fact, they just change the rules to benefit themselves and that hurts workers AND those owners who 'bust ass.' Because 'busting ass' will no longer lead to profits.

As to 'not worrying'. You have to be kidding. I don't mean that business owners aren't to worry about things. They do. I mean, people are starving or go without necessary medication because they aren't given enough of a wage and no matter how many hours they work. America has a long and rich history of food stamps because people wages arent enough to cover the basics.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Buyetyen

CriticalGaming

Elite Member
Legacy
Dec 28, 2017
8,646
3,535
118
And there's the first problem in your math: you don't know what a living wage is.
Well there we go. I asked over and over again for someone to give me a "living wage". But your 32K is exceptionally low balling especially if someone has kids. Though to be fair I live in California where "livable wage" is something like 75K+ because shit here is fucking crazy expensive thanks to extra taxation (hint hint btw).
 

Buyetyen

Elite Member
May 11, 2020
2,787
2,016
118
Country
USA
Well there we go. I asked over and over again for someone to give me a "living wage". But your 32K is exceptionally low balling especially if someone has kids. Though to be fair I live in California where "livable wage" is something like 75K+ because shit here is fucking crazy expensive thanks to extra taxation (hint hint btw).
Yeah, it's a ***** and a half isn't it? Which is why I also agree with you on rent regulations in addition to a number of other combined reforms and robust safety nets. No one thing is going to do it alone. Addressing stagnant wages is just a priority for me because I don't want to see other people waste decades of their lives being unable to make ends meet and it's within reach.
 
  • Like
Reactions: CriticalGaming

CriticalGaming

Elite Member
Legacy
Dec 28, 2017
8,646
3,535
118
Funny thing about jobs: They tend to take about 40 hours out of your week (if you're lucky enough to not have mandated overtime) and can leave people too exhausted to learn effectively.
Excuses. Most college students have jobs, and education is easier than ever before with online classes. This is an excuse and nothing more.

Yeah, it's a ***** and a half isn't it? Which is why I also agree with you on rent regulations in addition to a number of other combined reforms and robust safety nets. No one thing is going to do it alone. Addressing stagnant wages is just a priority for me because I don't want to see other people waste decades of their lives being unable to make ends meet and it's within reach.
HOLY FUCK! We just hit common ground! Imagine that shit!

I will say that wages are not stagnant though. California has been increasing it's minimum wage every six months for the past four years or so. Though I believe we hit the new min wage in 2020. I don't know how the pandemic is going to affect continued min wage growth.

But what really needs to happen in Cali, is the excess regulations causing price increases. Many high rents in apartments are because the rent includes water and power. And our water prices are fucking insane, just like our gas prices (which top $5/gallon in some places). So those things drive those costs to stupid levels and it's unchecked because California is filled with crazy politicians.

Honestly I think the min wage is the least of our issues in that regard because it is the other growth that needs to stop. Min wage in my state is $15/hr now.
 

TheMysteriousGX

Elite Member
Legacy
Sep 16, 2014
6,781
4,908
118
Country
United States
It's always hilarious to me that California, venture capitalist center of the world, is described as having too many regulations.
But what really needs to happen in Cali, is the excess regulations causing price increases. Many high rents in apartments are because the rent includes water and power. And our water prices are fucking insane, just like our gas prices (which top $5/gallon in some places). So those things drive those costs to stupid levels and it's unchecked because California is filled with crazy politicians.
Wait, how does not including the cost of water in rent actually help anybody? The water needs to be paid for regardless
So what are we talking, central planning on necessities?
 

Gordon_4

The Big Engine
Legacy
Apr 3, 2020
4,341
3,524
118
Australia
It's always hilarious to me that California, venture capitalist center of the world, is described as having too many regulations.
Wait, how does not including the cost of water in rent actually help anybody? The water needs to be paid for regardless
So what are we talking, central planning on necessities?
Utilities are separate to your rent because they're typically not a static amount of money since the cost is determined by use and that can vary wildly from household to household. Some places down here with body corporate - usually estates with about 10-15 dwellings on them - formulate an average for stuff like water and electricity and roll it into the body corporate fees and everyone just pays the BC and they pay the company. So the rent/fees look high but if you factor in what you'd be paying for the water and elec, your outlay is about the same.
 

Kwak

Elite Member
Sep 11, 2014
1,814
1,240
118
Country
4
And you still didn't answer my question as to who decides what's a livable wage in the first fucking place.
10 beans a week, given rent and utilities is 4 beans, food 2, that leaves enough to put back into the economy that isn't based on those things, and maybe save one bean to buy something more expensive later.
 
  • Like
Reactions: MrCalavera

Kwak

Elite Member
Sep 11, 2014
1,814
1,240
118
Country
4
Yes, that is a thing that should happen.

Of course it also should be accompanied with subsidized qualification options for all those ex fast food workers to learn something the society actually values. And with a social security net that should have been in place anyway.
They should all be made shareholders in the industry that is automated so they can benefit from the profits.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Buyetyen

CriticalGaming

Elite Member
Legacy
Dec 28, 2017
8,646
3,535
118
It's always hilarious to me that California, venture capitalist center of the world, is described as having too many regulations.
Wait, how does not including the cost of water in rent actually help anybody? The water needs to be paid for regardless
So what are we talking, central planning on necessities?
There is an excessive fee on using excess water due to the drought that weve had for 40 fucking years. So it makes water bills exceptionally expensive.

Then they want everyone to go solar so they jack up the prices on electricity so if you use your ac you are fucked.

My ultiity bill is almost 500 bucks a month.
 

Dirty Hipsters

This is how we praise the sun!
Legacy
Feb 7, 2011
7,454
1,789
118
Country
'Merica
Gender
3 children in a trench coat
How about a Mcdonald's making 150k in profits in a year?
It's funny that you mention McDonalds because McDonalds employees in Denmark make more than $20 an hour and a Big Mac in Denmark only costs $0.27 more, yet somehow McDonalds in Denmark is obviously still profitable otherwise they wouldn't have any franchises there.

I mean, you can do all the math you want based on incorrect assumptions of how these franchises are run, based in questionably correct data of how much an average McDonalds or Subway makes. We can all make up some numbers to prove or disprove our own biases, but here's a proven real world example that you can totally just pay fast food workers more with only a minimal price increase to the food and the business would still be profitable.

Also, they get 6 weeks paid vacation every year.


 

TheMysteriousGX

Elite Member
Legacy
Sep 16, 2014
6,781
4,908
118
Country
United States
There is an excessive fee on using excess water due to the drought that weve had for 40 fucking years. So it makes water bills exceptionally expensive.

Then they want everyone to go solar so they jack up the prices on electricity so if you use your ac you are fucked.

My ultiity bill is almost 500 bucks a month.
I'm...90% certain that they don't want you to install solar panels just so they can jack up your utility bills
 

TheMysteriousGX

Elite Member
Legacy
Sep 16, 2014
6,781
4,908
118
Country
United States
It's funny that you mention McDonalds because McDonalds employees in Denmark make more than $20 an hour and a Big Mac in Denmark only costs $0.27 more, yet somehow McDonalds in Denmark is obviously still profitable otherwise they wouldn't have any franchises there.

I mean, you can do all the math you want based on incorrect assumptions of how these franchises are run, based in questionably correct data of how much an average McDonalds or Subway makes. We can all make up some numbers to prove or disprove our own biases, but here's a proven real world example that you can totally just pay fast food workers more with only a minimal price increase to the food and the business would still be profitable.

Also, they get 6 weeks paid vacation every year.


The most frustrating thing about talking politics in the US is arguing for things that other, smaller, less powerful countries already have and being told that it's an impossible pipe dream