Our Covid Response

Agema

You have no authority here, Jackie Weaver
Legacy
Mar 3, 2009
8,598
5,963
118
Just wanting to make sure your statement is detailing the falseness of Pheonexings argument
Yes. Happening by dumb luck to treat a some people's gastrointestinal worm infestation by misprescribing a drug is no justification worth the name. You wouldn't say a murderer who randomly shot 20 people did good because one of his victims by chance happened to be another murderer. The most useful conclusion is that maybe it's worth occasionally giving ivermectin to everyone in areas of high risk worm infestations, just on the off-chance some have a low level infestation without realising.

It's also irrational because the logic could be expanded to defending putting everyone on a cocktail of many other drugs, because chances are a few people might have an untreated illness that would increase their susceptibility to covid. There's no point using this sort of irrationality to try to claw back some semblance of justification for a bad decision.
 

Phoenixmgs

The Muse of Fate
Legacy
Apr 3, 2020
9,029
800
118
w/ M'Kraan Crystal
Gender
Male
Where are these MSNBC (I assume that's what you're referring to) articles from the 1st few months about ventilation? I still haven't been linked one yet. If you mean MSN that's an aggregate for millions of articles, I'm sure there's a couple in there (there's an article about probably anything in there). But the articles of masks and ventilation ratio is gonna be like 100 to 1 in favor of masks. So you're gonna communicate something that does very little at least 100 times more than the thing that does a lot? That doesn't make sense. You do realize there's a difference between Fauci or whoever mentioning ventilation every so often and it being effectively communicated to the public? Right? There's literally still more talk about masking than ventilation now. The fact that beaches were closed for summer 2020 in many places shows it wasn't fucking communicated well at all. Just because I wasn't perfect with my phrasing doesn't mean I'm moving goalposts. And why would I make my argument that ventilation was literally never mentioned, that's asinine. There's literally more google results for "lions covid msn" than "ventilation covid msn".

1654227525876.png

1654227493923.png
 

Phoenixmgs

The Muse of Fate
Legacy
Apr 3, 2020
9,029
800
118
w/ M'Kraan Crystal
Gender
Male
Just to be clear. You ask for an video or article from MSM about ventilation because you 'couldnt find one'. You pretended they didnt know any of this stuff. They did and they wrote articles about it

Now you've made up a different goal post and say that was your point. If you're going to say 'the public didnt follow the advice of CDC and MSM about ventilation' I would totally agree. The public didn't follow the advice on hand washing. BUT that wasnt your point. You're point was 'MSM BAD'
Do you know how air works?

If you get air flow through a room, you better not put a single person between you and that window (via the path of the air flow) or you're gonna give them COVID. When the MSM talked about ventilation, they talk about A/C units pushing air across retreatants. You would have this direct path between the infected person and the window and anyone in the air flow would get infected but tables right next door wouldn't.

If you 'just open a window', you can cause way more problems then leaving it closed if you are not thinking about

For the LOVE OF ALL THINGS HOLY, DONT OPEN UP RANDOM WINDOW BECUASE YOU THINK THAT"S GOING TO DO 'SOMETHING TO STOP COVID'. JESUS CHRIST

Get some in who knows a bit about fluid dynamics to help understand what to do. As far as I understand, its best to have some fan to force you germs straight out the window. Waiting for some random air to do the job is not enough and let's it linger around. Meeting up in a big stadium is precarious because there are multiple air flows mixing everything up. Outdoor events have wind that changes directions regularly. Even a gust of wind from outside can blows that germs back inside onto you or others. If you dont have masks on, that means you are spreading germs everywhere (unless you are fan forcing them straight out a window). If you demand not to have masks, you should be reducing the amount of people per square metre dramatically. Otherwise the ventilation will be utterly pointless. The less germs that are pumped into the air, the less likely the air flow will do unintentional things.

Now, apart from knowing how you're air flow works in a room, understand that this strategy is a percentage game. The droplets are LIKELY to follow the air flow path. It's not definite. Some might fall off the flow half way to the window and float to the side and drop on people. So it is not 100%. But the more germ you put into the air flow will increase how many divert into unwanted territory. Masks do not reduce the infected person from spreading to 0% of their germs but they reduce them a lot. So you START with less in the air flow, thus that percentage of particles diverting into unwanted areas is lessen dramatically.

None of this is 100% fool proof. Neither is washing your hands, social distancing, taking the vaccine or being outside. If you try one of these strategies, you might reduce your risk by, say 80%. Do two of them might reduce it by 90%. Three 95% etc. It will never reach 100% but your goal is to get as close as you can.

Teaching how air flows works is hard. You know what's not hard to teach...

I have never seen this song in my life before now. Does that mean I could not learn about washing my hands because I didn't see this song?


You only think it's ridiculous because you don't want to wear a mask and made stuff up to pretend to be scientific

All this above is just stuff that was well know 2 years ago. I can't help if you just found out about it recently and are pretending no one told you just to score brownie points
The rest...

You do realize that air conditioning and open a window a far different things, right? Opening a window is not going to cause more problems, that literally makes no sense in regard to virus transmission. It's like the equivalent of wearing a mask behind someone jogging in front of you because your concerned about being down wind from them.

Opening up a window is the best thing you can do to help stop the spread of covid indoors, that's a fact. I'd love to see a single expert that agrees with you. Sure if it's like some still hot day, it probably won't do much (no one is saying to open the windows on a still humid 95 degree day). As long as there's a somewhat decent breeze, the room is not only getting air moved around, viral particles dispersed; you're also bringing in new air into the room, which is what a fan won't do. Viral particles get dispersed apart very quickly outside. You do realize you need to get X amount of viral inoculate to get covid right? Masks don't work nearly as much as you think they do, every single mask study that has actually good methods have shown masks do nothing or very little. If covid was droplet based, masks would work well, but covid isn't, it's airborne. It's just gonna go through and around the mask for the most part. That's why Fauci initially said masks don't work because there was never any data prior to covid (and there still isn't) showing they did much of anything against other airborne diseases. Social distancing works, it's just that you can't social distance in the society we have; people need to work together and people need to be social for their own health as well. Hand washing literally does nothing to help prevent covid.

I only knew there were songs because John Oliver showed one from like Singapore or something way back at the start of the pandemic.

I know masks do very little if anything. And also what's the actual point of wearing a mask when everyone has immunity? I'm sure your counter will be, what about the vulnerable? And I'll say the vulnerable have always had to be careful with stuff like the flu and also if someone is very concerned they can wear an N95 mask and be far more protected than if they and everyone else were just wearing normal masks. Me wearing a mask helps the vulnerable basically zilch.
 

Phoenixmgs

The Muse of Fate
Legacy
Apr 3, 2020
9,029
800
118
w/ M'Kraan Crystal
Gender
Male
Didn't know that at the time. Besides, this was the time of superspreafing pool parties

Had a coworker get covid from talking to someone outdoors, so yeah. Shouldn't be shocked you don't get hyperbole

I live in the United States, where it's normal practice to have people like you try to sacrifice people like me to keep the stock price up. Taiwan didn't have to try and convince 300 million people that wearing a mask wouldn't give them an embolism.


We knew that at the time. Covid doesn't spread outside. Sure you can have parties where people congregate inside during said pool party and spread covid there but chances of it happening outside is extremely low. Please link to how covid restrictions have cause more benefit than harm. And, keeping the economy going isn't about the fucking stock prices (for the 1% sure) because how do you think people are able to get what they need and get help? The fucking economy. There are obvious harms and lives lost from shutting down the economy. Question is are those harms greater than the benefits and no one has shown any proof of that. Here's a cost-benefit analysis from Canada that states that "it is possible that lockdown will go down as one of the greatest peacetime policy failures in Canada’s history".



How would you know? Your eyes seem to just skip right over any posts or links to contradictory evidence, like what happens when a muggle looks at Sirius Black's House.
I read all the replies. I may occasionally miss one here and there. It's really funny how I somehow missed the single reply that included a cost-benefit analysis of lockdowns saying they provide more over benefit than harm yet nobody can link me to that post or study. I've probably asked like a hundred fucking times at this point and not a whiff of proof. PLEASE LINK THE FUCKING STUDY IF IT EXISTS OR SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT IT ALREADY.


Firstly, you do realise I pointed out that research myself on this forum many months ago? And yes, ivermectin does indeed treat parasite infections. Congratulations on noticing.




No, you weren't, because you said to treat "pain and heart issues". The two uses are quite distinct.




There's just too much wrong with this claim to make it worth unpacking again for what must be the third or fourth time, not least the fact you are just wrong because there have been outdoor events associated with significant covid spread where people have been close-packed.




Dude, just have the good fucking grace to admit you were completely wrong. No-one thinks your empty bluster and goalpost moving is worth a damn.
You have any data showing giving ivermectin to people causes any at least somewhat serious harm? The vaccines have probably caused more serious harm (very very very few and far between) than ivermectin. An employee of Louis Rossmann got a heart attack from the vaccine.


Yes, people take baby aspirin daily for "heart issues", it's very commonly known thing...


Name one.


I'm not wrong, ventilation was not something communicated to the public in near the degree it should have been. Masks, washing hands, sanitizing, social distancing were the big ones. Even the video Trunkage posted literally proved my point.

He won't. He can't. Because to admit he was wrong is to admit that his life is no more valuable than anyone else's, and his ego cannot handle that.
Yet no one here is citing any sources from experts to prop up their argument.


Yes. Happening by dumb luck to treat a some people's gastrointestinal worm infestation by misprescribing a drug is no justification worth the name. You wouldn't say a murderer who randomly shot 20 people did good because one of his victims by chance happened to be another murderer. The most useful conclusion is that maybe it's worth occasionally giving ivermectin to everyone in areas of high risk worm infestations, just on the off-chance some have a low level infestation without realising.


It's also irrational because the logic could be expanded to defending putting everyone on a cocktail of many other drugs, because chances are a few people might have an untreated illness that would increase their susceptibility to covid. There's no point using this sort of irrationality to try to claw back some semblance of justification for a bad decision.
When your in wartime you do different things than peacetime. Is there even a single account of somebody getting more than a minor issue from taking ivermectin for a few days to a week for covid? Literally worse case scenario of taking an extremely safe drug for a short time is a placebo effect. The placebo effect can literally cause more benefits than harm. Ivermectin is like on the level of aspirin for danger. Yet remdesivir is probably still given for covid when it does nothing and has worse adverse effects. You're also the one that keeps saying taking what's considered a "normal" dose of vitamin d daily is somehow dangerous when there's no proof of that.
 

crimson5pheonix

It took 6 months to read my title.
Legacy
Jun 6, 2008
36,144
3,341
118
Fun fact, if Florida did as well as California, they would have saved around 25000 lives. But at least the living Floridians have their freedom, I guess.
 

TheMysteriousGX

Elite Member
Legacy
Sep 16, 2014
8,322
6,826
118
Country
United States
We knew that at the time. Covid doesn't spread outside. Sure you can have parties where people congregate inside during said pool party and spread covid there but chances of it happening outside is extremely low. Please link to how covid restrictions have cause more benefit than harm. And, keeping the economy going isn't about the fucking stock prices (for the 1% sure) because how do you think people are able to get what they need and get help? The fucking economy. There are obvious harms and lives lost from shutting down the economy. Question is are those harms greater than the benefits and no one has shown any proof of that. Here's a cost-benefit analysis from Canada that states that "it is possible that lockdown will go down as one of the greatest peacetime policy failures in Canada’s history".

Hi. I do not give a shit about the adjusted dollar value of a human life as estimated by an economist. I find the concept fantastically dehumanizing. Hope that helps.
 

Agema

You have no authority here, Jackie Weaver
Legacy
Mar 3, 2009
8,598
5,963
118
You have any data showing giving ivermectin to people causes any at least somewhat serious harm? The vaccines have probably caused more serious harm (very very very few and far between) than ivermectin. An employee of Louis Rossmann got a heart attack from the vaccine.
Yes, people have been hospitalised from taking ivermectin: there are also reports of deaths.
Of course, we'll never actually know the real toll, because ivermectin was mostly handed out in third world countries without the medical and reporting systems to track such things.

Yes, people take baby aspirin daily for "heart issues", it's very commonly known thing...
Yes, I've acknowledged it's a "thing", and corrected you that it's actually for thrombosis and embolism - this will mean it does help prevent some forms of heart attack, but also stroke, DVT, pulmonary embolism, etc. (although aspirin is markedly less effective for venous events). The point is that the use for "pain" is not the same as the use for thrombosis and embolism, as it uses a significantly higher dose and tends not to be taken daily, long-term. You cited both pain and "heart attacks".

Name one.

I'm not wrong, ventilation was not something communicated to the public in near the degree it should have been. Masks, washing hands, sanitizing, social distancing were the big ones. Even the video Trunkage posted literally proved my point.
So this is what we mean by moving the goalposts. Firstly, you claimed no-one was advising ventilation. That demonstrated wrong (and you refusing to overtly admit so of course), you've shifted your argument.

And not just that, but you've moved to a weaselly position of no-one advising ventilation in a way that satisfies you. And here lies another core dishonesty, because you've also now demanded everyone else meet not an objective standard, but your subjective one where you can, again, move the goalposts at will.

When your in wartime you do different things than peacetime. Is there even a single account of somebody getting more than a minor issue from taking ivermectin for a few days to a week for covid?
See above. There are of course studies identifying severe adverse reactions to ivermectin prior to covid too, in its conventional use.

Nor were people taking ivermectin just for a few days to a week. It was touted as prophylactic treatment, which means people being mis-sold the benefits of ivermectin were encouraged to take ivermectin medium-long term - like, for instance, the way people take aspirin to reduce blood clots. It is unclear to me whether the existing safety studies on ivermectin effectively cover this sort of use.
 
  • Like
Reactions: crimson5pheonix

Silvanus

Elite Member
Legacy
Jan 15, 2013
11,110
5,832
118
Country
United Kingdom
I read all the replies. I may occasionally miss one here and there. It's really funny how I somehow missed the single reply that included a cost-benefit analysis of lockdowns saying they provide more over benefit than harm yet nobody can link me to that post or study. I've probably asked like a hundred fucking times at this point and not a whiff of proof. PLEASE LINK THE FUCKING STUDY IF IT EXISTS OR SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT IT ALREADY.
The problem is, you get linked to evidence all the time. Then you ignore it, and a few pages later you start complaining that nobody provided that evidence.

Others are just sick of going through those motions by now.
 

XsjadoBlaydette

Piss-Drinking Nazi Wine-Mums
May 26, 2022
989
1,294
98
Country
Wales
If anyone's curious as to why ppl like that argue in such aggressive time-wasting memory-resetting ways, and where it's coming from, whether consciously or through sub-cultural osmosis, a book called 'confrontational politics' is pretty much now these humans' main playbook;


Can't seem to find an article summarising it properly yet, other than this, but it's adored and being shared by the modern reactionary right, conspiracy right, accelerationists and the like as the new way forward.

Wait, no, there's one article I missed!


What do Christian homeschoolers, “no compromise” gun rights advocates, anti-vaxxers, QAnon, social media trolls, and your crazy uncle all have in common?

Confrontational politics. This brand of activism uses specific persuasive techniques to convert a narrow slice of the electorate into fervent single-issue voters. A shockingly small number of people come to have massive influence on election outcomes, public policy, and political discourse.

Learning about confrontational politics has cast new light on much of the “news” I’ve seen on social media the last few years, my relationships with people who wholeheartedly espouse insane conspiracy theories, and my understanding of why U.S. politics have become so dysfunctional.


The Surprising Origins of Confrontational Politics

R.J. Rushdoony published one of the most influential books you’ve never heard of. His ideas have done as much as anyone’s to sow discord in politics, in the media, and in families or friendships with diverse beliefs.

Published in 1973, The Institutes of Biblical Law by Rushdoony argued for “Christian Reconstruction” — reconstructing society from the ground up according to a literalist, fundamentalist understanding of the Christian bible.

For those unfamiliar, Christian fundamentalists believe the Bible is the divinely-inspired, infallible “word of God.” The Bible can’t be wrong about anything, including science. Never mind that whoever wrote Genesis wasn’t trying to offer a scientific account of creation.


Christian Reconstruction came to be centered around homeschooling. Parents in the movement removed their kids from public schools to educate them according to fundamentalist beliefs. There is little-to-no regulation of homeschooling in the U.S. In fact, people can get taxpayer money to send their kids to parochial schools (see Powers and Principalities, Ep. 4).

Why? Because Rushdoony proselytized strategies that Christian Reconstructionists used to convert others to their cause, influence elected officials, kill regulation, and redirect public resources to private religious education through “school choice vouchers.”

Rushdoony’s influence didn’t end there. He mentored H.L. Richardson, a state Senator from California, author of a book on confrontational politics, and founder of Gun Owners of America, the original “no compromise” gun rights group and the second largest gun lobby in America after the NRA.

Aaron, Ben, and Chris Dorr are some of the most prominent “no compromisers” today, and they explicitly describe their approach to gun rights advocacy as confrontational politics. Their anti-gun control messages and demands of “political purity” on gun issues are so extreme that even staunchly pro-gun politicians despise them and their tactics.


As reported by NPR’s No Compromise podcast, you can attend $50 half-day seminars to learn the strategies of confrontational politics from the Foundation for Applied Conservative Leadership (FACL). The Dorrs and many other gun rights activists have been listed as official instructors. Some fifty FACL seminars have taken place in the U.S. this year.

NPR journalist Chris Haxel attended a FACL seminar outside of St. Louis as part of No Compromise. The seminar was filled almost entirely with women — all of them anti-vaxxers.

QAnon used the strategies of confrontational politics to move from a fringe oddity to a dangerously normalized assumption embraced by right-wing media, Senator Kelly Loeffler, and congressional candidate Marjorie Taylor-Greene. Taylor-Greene has been nicknamed the “Q candidate” for her wholehearted parroting of QAnon ideas.

The New York Post dog-whistled QAnon’s claims of a secret Satanic pedophilia cult within the Democratic party with its dubious reporting that Hunter Biden left a laptop containing child pornography at a repair shop. The right-wing media’s attempts to inflame a scandal over the story reflects a key strategy of confrontational politics: target a small group predisposed to your message.

I doubt any of my conservative friends and family members have heard of either Rushdoony or his book, yet his ideas have influenced them and their lives in profound ways. His ideas pushed religious and conservative political activism toward activating uncompromising extremism.

It’s easy to see the results of Rushdoony’s ideas in our media environment today, and the description “uncompromising extremists” aptly fits my friends and family members who still won’t wear masks, believe in the “deep state,” and view political beliefs through the lens of “good vs. evil.”


The Simple Math Behind Confrontational Politics

In both decades-old and recent training videos (see No Compromise, Ep. 6), proponents of confrontational politics emphasize that only a small slice of the electorate matters.

Primaries are key hurdles to winning the general election, but only about 25% of the U.S. electorate votes in primary elections (about 28% voted in the 2016 primaries, nearly a record). According to FACL instructors, some 8% are reliable Republicans and 8% are dependable Democrats. About 2% vote for third-party candidates or write-in candidates.

That leaves about 6–7% who “matter” in confrontational politics. To sway elections and strike fear in incumbent politicians, one needs to persuade only a little more than 3–3.5% of that group to become dedicated to one’s issue.

So dedicated that they vote for candidates based exclusively on support for that issue, including in primaries; that they sustain decades of political pressure to get school vouchers; that they view the NRA as too “soft” on gun rights; that they push for laws enabling them to refuse school-required vaccinations; or that they advocate voting for “Q,” a.k.a. Donald Trump, who will defeat the child sex-trafficking ring in the Democratic party.

The 3% pressures politicians so actively that they can’t be fully ignored. They’re the loudest voices and most reliable voters in the room.

Worse still, their ideas often get amplified and normalized by people with larger, more mainstream followings.

For example, in “Mainstream Republicans Are Starting to Sound a lot like QAnon,” Jared Casto recounts how conservative media has amplified QAnon and the “QAnon-light” New York Post story about Hunter Biden’s laptop.

Despite the story’s poor sourcing and obvious credibility issues (see Casto above), Rudy Guluiani promoted the “Hunter Biden is a pedophile” narrative on Newsmax. Multiple popular right-wing blogs ran with the story.

Next, Lou Dobbs reiterated the claim for his audience on Fox Business and retweeted one of the right-wing blogs. Other conservative personalities began tweeting the narrative to millions.

Then Don Trump Jr. went on Fox News and accused the Bidens of involvement in “human trafficking and prostitution rings.” All of this echoes QAnon’s claims of a child-sex ring among Democrat elites.


Next thing you know, nearly 40% of Republicans think QAnon’s conspiracy theories are “at least somewhat accurate” and a full 50% of Trump supporters believe “top Democrats are involved in an elite child sex-trafficking ring.”

No wonder my Fox News-loving family freaked out when I flipped from right to left. If I had known about confrontational politics back then, I wouldn’t have taken their reaction so personally.

At least now I better understand why American politics sucks so much now. Jason Casto cites Business Insider reporting that GOP strategists view QAnon as a strategic voting bloc and a campaign asset. These strategists described QAnon believers as “a useful band of fired-up supporters.”

For many issues, the “fired-up” 3% spouting conspiracy theories exerts far more influence on politics and public discourse than their numbers or ideas merit.

Thus we consume political campaigns with questions about email servers, the non-scandal of Burisma, and dubious stories about laptops with child porn rather than focusing on policy ideas.

We waste time and damage relationships arguing with each other about “birtherism,” the “deep state,” alleged socialism, and QAnon instead of discussing how to make society better — or perhaps more wisely, just being friends and family.


The Strategies of Confrontational Politics

When you’re trying to influence so few people, you can employ much more radical rhetoric. In fact, the more radical your rhetoric, the more impact it will have on the people predisposed to your message.

Technology makes it possible to reach this group and ensconce them in an echo chamber of misinformation, fear-mongering, and outrage. We shouldn’t hold our crazy uncle accountable for his beliefs so much as we should encourage him to get his news anywhere but social media.


Using Big Tech to Reach the 3%

Before the internet, it was time-consuming and expensive to identify and coordinate the 3% of the population spread throughout the country who might support extreme ideologies and positions.

Thanks to Big Tech, it’s as easy as creating a Facebook group, promoting a tweet, or posting an outlandish video on YouTube.

Facebook groups coalesce users based on common interests. Networks of similar groups amplify each other’s posts, spreading them to thousands, sometimes millions. While Facebook’s granular user-data enables precise microtargeting of cheap ads, why bother when the algorithm does it for free?

As The Social Dilemma points out, fake news spreads six times faster on social media than actual news.


The Dorr brothers, for example, disseminate their propaganda through Facebook groups, Facebook live videos, and reposts of a news articles that they rewrote to give them a “they’re-coming-for-your-guns” angle.

They also anonymously produce the Second Amendment Daily website and email newsletter, whose slanted stories often get reshared on social media as though they’re gospel, even by pro-gun politicians and activists who dislike the Dorrs’ extreme philosophy and abrasive approach.

As much as I want to fact-check my friends and family member’s social media, the rhetoric of confrontational politics works far too well. No wonder my social media activism has succeeded only in pissing people off and inviting scorn for my viewpoint and ideas.


Using “Us vs. Them” to Capture the Audience

The Dorr brothers are a perfect example of the “us vs. them” rhetoric that makes confrontational politics so effective.

Their harsh criticism of everyone who doesn’t embrace the “No Compromise” philosophy makes Donald Trump look like Mr. Rodgers. They believe there shouldn’t be any gun laws at all, and they ridicule anyone (including the NRA, other pro-gun groups, and conservative Republicans) who supports any kind of gun regulation, such as concealed carry permits.

They present themselves as tireless, relentless, outspoken defenders of your gun rights against stupid lib-tards, spineless politicians, and biased media. They record theatrical, bombastic videos in state legislatures, at gun rallies, and at lockdown protests, ranting, insulting opponents, and claiming that they’re working for you in the halls of power and online every single day.

Is it surprising, then, that my pro-gun friends and family members trust people like the Dorr brothers more than me when it comes to the gun control debate? No. No, it’s not.

In reality, the Dorrs mostly just record a video in one corner of the state house, change suit jackets, record a second video in a different corner, change again, and so on until they’ve produced a month’s worth of videos to post online. They flood Facebook with hours of content each day, falsely portraying themselves as constantly lobbying and advocating.

The more they repeat their arguments, the truer they seem to the people following them. Repetition makes a claim feel true regardless of its content. Psychologists call this the “illusion of truth effect.” And the more information provided, the more fuel audiences have for their confirmation bias and motivated reasoning. Confrontational politics provides plenty of “evidence” people can use to justify believing what they want to believe.



It helps, too, that confrontational politics doesn’t always have an obvious profit motive. If you’ll join their movement and contribute financially, the Dorrs say, you’ll allow them to keep working hard to protect your gun rights from, as one Dorr video says, people “who don’t know which end the bullets come out of.” The Dorrs seem genuine in only wanting to defend your gun rights.

Whereas you and me — the “radical liberals” — might want to take those rights away, starting with universal background checks and bans on high capacity magazines. The slippery-slope! The horror!

As it turns out, most of the donations the Dorrs’ nonprofit receives go to printing mailers to request more donations — mailers printed by a private company they own. NPR’s No Compromise reports that the Dorr brothers don’t seem to be getting rich from the scheme. The documents NPR found suggest that the Dorrs might gross about $240,000 each. I’d argue that’s a nice living for posting a couple hours of ranting on Facebook each day.

But absent investigative journalism, how would people who see that Facebook content ever know what the Dorrs do with the donations they receive?


Anti-vaxxers are another example of confrontational politics. They don’t argue against the science of vaccines as much as they argue against the authority of medicine. They question the motives of doctors, health officials, and the government. What secret agenda might Anthony Fauci have for exaggerating COVID? Could the pandemic be a lie to justify mandatory vaccinations? Might those vaccinations secretly contain tracking chips?

Once they’ve fostered suspicion, anti-vaxxers often cite “scientific evidence” that they don’t want you to know about. We know better, their rhetoric goes, and we’re looking out for you and your children against them. Propaganda videos like Plandemic portray vaccines as deadly and doctors as sinister.


It works. Plandemic received almost 2.5 million views on Facebook, double the Pentagon’s “aerial phenomena” video and dwarfing The Office reunion video. There doesn’t seem to be a clear profit motive unless an anti-vaxxer sells some miraculous, all-natural, homemade alternative or Judy Mikovits just published a book.*** But again, they’re just trying to help!

So even though I begged my right-wing family members to wear masks for my health and the health of my immunocompromised wife, they refused to be “bullied” into sacrificing their freedom to the vaccination agenda. They identified me as part of the dangerous “them” rather than a fellow human asking for consideration and courtesy.

Similarly, the basic premise of QAnon is that we know the truth — the existence of a vile them that can be defeated only by Donald Trump, the messianic “Q.” We can defeat them if we vote for Trump. QAnon-believers promote their theories with religious fervor even though there seems to be little financial incentive apart from gaining a platform.

Confrontational politics radicalizes a tiny minority and captures their unwavering loyalty through:

- the power of social media algorithms;
- “us vs. them” rhetoric;
- incessant online theatrics; and
- a veil of pure motivations.

Once engaged, this minority becomes too vocal, aggressive, and agitative for leaders and journalists to ignore. Pro-gun Republicans can’t ignore “no compromisers” who constantly call them out. Mainstream media have little choice but to debunk QAnon and the Biden laptop story when a handful of people promote these stories to millions.

But the less the fringe is ignored, the more their views spread, become normalized, and gain acceptance. The gulf between people with different political beliefs grows wider. The “us vs. them” lens colors our relationships.


How to Contain Confrontational Politics

I’ve argued for fighting misinformation through educating the public in rhetorical analysis and creating social media “friction” that forces people to slow down and apply those skills.

I’ve also suggested simply not engaging with friends or family members with whom we disagree politically. Instead, we should prioritize people over convincing them of our beliefs.

I still believe those are the best long-term and interpersonal solutions, but in the short-term, for society’s benefit, censorship might work much better.


A Defense of Censorship

By the time a falsehood gets fact-checked, it’s too late. Misinformation feeds confirmation bias and motivated reasoning and takes advantage of the “illusion of truth effect.” Many studies show that people persist in believing false information even after they’ve been told by its source that it’s not true. Debunking misinformation also repeats it, making it feel truer than before.


Misinformation that engenders fear or outrage is especially difficult to undo. Neuroscientist Tali Sharot exposed research subjects to misinformation while they were in an MRI machine. A week later, she brought the subjects back and revealed that the information had been randomly generated.

Yet half the subjects persisted in believing the misinformation even when its source had revealed it to be false. Her team found that subjects had much more difficulty correcting false beliefs when the misinformation stimulated the amygdala and aroused strong negative emotions.

Confrontational politics take advantage of confirmation bias, motivated reasoning, the “illusion of truth effect,” and the irrationality of emotional arousal by plastering fear-mongering messages tailored to its target audience all over social media, day after day.


The solution is to stop those messages.

Facebook and Twitter quickly decided to suppress the dubious Hunter Biden story. Unfortunately, the story still attained millions of engagements. It was shared 300,000 times (and counting) after Facebook announced it would limit its spread. Clearly, Facebook could do more to stop misinformation.

Nonetheless, the censorship decision framed the New York Post story in terms of its falsehood. Outside of right-wing media, people are focusing on the obvious problems with the article’s sources and credibility. Instead of turning into Hillary’s emails, it’s turning into a non-story.


A Defense of Echo Chambers

I don’t have much faith that Big Tech will consistently censor misinformation. If Trump appeared poised to be reelected, I suspect they would continue to tip-toe around conservatives who complain about content-moderation even though right-wingers thrive on Facebook, Twitter, and elsewhere.

We can act as our own media censors. I’ve turned off almost all of the notifications on my smartphone. I couldn’t resist checking Facebook, Twitter, or Gmail whenever I saw banners or badges. Turning them off helped me unplug from the onslaught of confrontational politics, but I still found myself compulsively scrolling through the Newsfeed or the Twitter stream.

It doesn’t matter whether we’re in an echo chamber. What matters is the kind of echo chamber we’re in.

I didn’t want to delete Facebook since I have so many pictures there and I want to run Facebook ads (if you can’t beat them, join them). Instead, I installed browser extensions that block Facebook. I can’t get on Facebook on my phone and I have to use a browser I hate to go there on my tablet, so now I very rarely visit Facebook. I encounter far fewer things that offend, enrage, or disturb me and far less propaganda, misinformation, and disinformation.

On Twitter, I mostly follow mainstream news organizations and journalists, and authors whom I admire. I can’t recall the last time I saw misinformation on Twitter that wasn’t brought up to be debunked. When I realize I’m following someone problematic, I quickly unfollow that person. I’m similarly selective with podcasts. I’m not on most other social media, but I’m sure you can find ways to customize your experiences.

Acting as my own content-moderator leaves me in an echo chamber, but is that such a bad thing? In my view, it doesn’t matter whether we’re in an echo chamber. What matters is the kind of echo chamber we’re in.

My echo chamber consists mostly of NPR (especially Up First), The New York Times, and The Atlantic. I tried adding Fox News and the National Review in the past, but I decided they were even more biased than they claim the “lamestream media” is, they were bad for my mental health and blood pressure, and their views really didn’t keep me any better informed.

To put it another way, if staying in an echo chamber of NPR podcasts and articles allows me to avoid slogging through the wheat and chaff of newsfeeds cluttered with confrontational politics (not to mention foreign disinformation), then sign me up.


A Call for Voting

Of course, if more than half the electorate cast votes, then the tyranny of the minority would end. Politicians could ignore the radical 3% and still get elected. More importantly, they could avoid being primaried by more extreme candidates who appeal to a few groups of highly-engaged single-issue voters.

People sometimes complain that their vote doesn’t really count. It’s just one of millions, lost in the white noise. But that’s exactly why your vote matters. We’ve got to drown out the 3%. We can’t allow conspiracy theorists to be taken seriously as a strategic constituency.

Vote in general elections. Vote in the midterm elections. Vote in the primaries. Vote, and mobilize other voters.

*** They do!
 
Last edited:

Trunkage

Nascent Orca
Legacy
Jun 21, 2012
8,697
2,881
118
Brisbane
Gender
Cyborg
The rest...

You do realize that air conditioning and open a window a far different things, right? Opening a window is not going to cause more problems, that literally makes no sense in regard to virus transmission. It's like the equivalent of wearing a mask behind someone jogging in front of you because your concerned about being down wind from them.

Opening up a window is the best thing you can do to help stop the spread of covid indoors, that's a fact. I'd love to see a single expert that agrees with you. Sure if it's like some still hot day, it probably won't do much (no one is saying to open the windows on a still humid 95 degree day). As long as there's a somewhat decent breeze, the room is not only getting air moved around, viral particles dispersed; you're also bringing in new air into the room, which is what a fan won't do. Viral particles get dispersed apart very quickly outside. You do realize you need to get X amount of viral inoculate to get covid right? Masks don't work nearly as much as you think they do, every single mask study that has actually good methods have shown masks do nothing or very little. If covid was droplet based, masks would work well, but covid isn't, it's airborne. It's just gonna go through and around the mask for the most part. That's why Fauci initially said masks don't work because there was never any data prior to covid (and there still isn't) showing they did much of anything against other airborne diseases. Social distancing works, it's just that you can't social distance in the society we have; people need to work together and people need to be social for their own health as well. Hand washing literally does nothing to help prevent covid.

I only knew there were songs because John Oliver showed one from like Singapore or something way back at the start of the pandemic.

I know masks do very little if anything. And also what's the actual point of wearing a mask when everyone has immunity? I'm sure your counter will be, what about the vulnerable? And I'll say the vulnerable have always had to be careful with stuff like the flu and also if someone is very concerned they can wear an N95 mask and be far more protected than if they and everyone else were just wearing normal masks. Me wearing a mask helps the vulnerable basically zilch.
So, in summary, you have read nothing about ventilation and are just clearly spewing out nonsense, showing you don't understand anything about it.

Are you just listening to Alex Jones or something? How can you be this consistently wrong? Why did I expect this to be different than your take on masks? That last one is rhetorical. I should have expected this. Thank god this is no longer as important because, again, you keep trying to get people killed
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dalisclock

Phoenixmgs

The Muse of Fate
Legacy
Apr 3, 2020
9,029
800
118
w/ M'Kraan Crystal
Gender
Male
Hi. I do not give a shit about the adjusted dollar value of a human life as estimated by an economist. I find the concept fantastically dehumanizing. Hope that helps.
That's not what the cost-benefit analysis was. And still no citing of a cost-benefit analysis saying lockdowns were beneficial in sight.

Yes, people have been hospitalised from taking ivermectin: there are also reports of deaths.
Of course, we'll never actually know the real toll, because ivermectin was mostly handed out in third world countries without the medical and reporting systems to track such things.
Almost all of them are from finding and taking non-human versions of the drug. And the few from prescriptions could easily be improper dosing.

Yes, I've acknowledged it's a "thing", and corrected you that it's actually for thrombosis and embolism - this will mean it does help prevent some forms of heart attack, but also stroke, DVT, pulmonary embolism, etc. (although aspirin is markedly less effective for venous events). The point is that the use for "pain" is not the same as the use for thrombosis and embolism, as it uses a significantly higher dose and tends not to be taken daily, long-term. You cited both pain and "heart attacks".
I'm just saying something like aspirin has all these side effects too, the question is how often do they occur and at what doses. Some people pop pain pills everyday, and do those side effects mainly take place in those taking the medicine in that manner? Or do they effect people equally whether pain for a short period or aspirin everyday for preventing a heart attack? The side effects give you really no context to how dangerous something is. What drug can you look up the side effects and find nothing serious?

1st article was like just don't gather cheek-to-cheek and you're fine. Also, 96 cases traced to a 3-day festival probably attended by like 40,000 people (at least one year) is a significant amount of transmission and cause for concern? 2nd article doesn't show any infection is directly tied to the outdoor concerts because what do people do when going to concerts, travel in cars or public transportation, eat at restaurants, get hotel rooms to go everyday, etc. The first article was at least tracing infections back to the concert from the wording of it whereas the 2nd one was just saying if you went to the concert, your chance of getting covid was increased, which could have very little to do specifically with the concert.

So this is what we mean by moving the goalposts. Firstly, you claimed no-one was advising ventilation. That demonstrated wrong (and you refusing to overtly admit so of course), you've shifted your argument.

And not just that, but you've moved to a weaselly position of no-one advising ventilation in a way that satisfies you. And here lies another core dishonesty, because you've also now demanded everyone else meet not an objective standard, but your subjective one where you can, again, move the goalposts at will.
Why would I literally argue that no one advised for ventilation? Why do you think I knew ventilation was important in the 1st place? You think it was my own idea? I don't feel like spelling out every single thing. Like before when I said covid doesn't spread outside, I don't mean literally it's impossible for covid to spread outside, I mean it hardly spreads outside. Here's an article telling people to basically wipe down a foreign pet with antivirals before petting them even though there was literally no evidence of people catching covid from pets. There's literally an article about anything, why would I make the argument that no one talked about ventilation? The fact is that it wasn't communicated to the public much at all and the fact that places like beaches where closed shows that the message wasn't received at all. Also, the guy in Trunkage's video literally said the same thing.

New research shows that nearly two-thirds of the public are not aware that ventilation is an effective way to reduce the spread of coronavirus in the home.


See above. There are of course studies identifying severe adverse reactions to ivermectin prior to covid too, in its conventional use.

Nor were people taking ivermectin just for a few days to a week. It was touted as prophylactic treatment, which means people being mis-sold the benefits of ivermectin were encouraged to take ivermectin medium-long term - like, for instance, the way people take aspirin to reduce blood clots. It is unclear to me whether the existing safety studies on ivermectin effectively cover this sort of use.
I was never ever for taking anything like ivermectin regularly for prophylactic treatment as that is way different than just taking something for a few days.

The problem is, you get linked to evidence all the time. Then you ignore it, and a few pages later you start complaining that nobody provided that evidence.

Others are just sick of going through those motions by now.
Not any evidence about lockdowns providing more benefit than harm, not a single time. I comment on just about all the evidence posted, some of it is horrible and some of it is good. Like for example the 2 outdoor studies I replied to just about, one was horseshit, the other at least seemed to have decent methods from the wording of the article at least. Like how crimson5pheonix posted data about how well old people were protected and I liked the way it was done, but give me that data over the whole pandemic or a year vs just a couple months that just gonna show who had a covid spike during that time frame vs who actually did a good/bad job. Or nonsensical arguments like mask mandates are gone and covid goes up when the same shit happens when there is mask mandates.


So, in summary, you have read nothing about ventilation and are just clearly spewing out nonsense, showing you don't understand anything about it.

Are you just listening to Alex Jones or something? How can you be this consistently wrong? Why did I expect this to be different than your take on masks? That last one is rhetorical. I should have expected this. Thank god this is no longer as important because, again, you keep trying to get people killed
I ask for evidence and I always get none. Where's this expert that agrees with you and disagrees with me? That's what I asked for. Then you just make a garbage argument that I listen to Alex Jones. You literally said ventilation without masks isn't gonna do much, that is asinine, literally no scientist agrees with that.

 

crimson5pheonix

It took 6 months to read my title.
Legacy
Jun 6, 2008
36,144
3,341
118
When all else fails, just refer to people's lives in dollar value, because you're totally not a Larry Sommers tier ghoul, certainly not.

And probably lose anyway, as last I checked the states that scrapped pandemic relief early (which is to say red states that went lighter on lockdowns) recovered more slowly than other states.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Dalisclock

Silvanus

Elite Member
Legacy
Jan 15, 2013
11,110
5,832
118
Country
United Kingdom
Not any evidence about lockdowns providing more benefit than harm, not a single time. I comment on just about all the evidence posted, some of it is horrible and some of it is good.
It's just simply untrue you comment on all evidence posted.

And usually your commentary boils down to simple misunderstanding or arrogant dismissal, followed by the usual insistence that nobody has given you any evidence because you didn't properly understand or properly address what was provided.

I ask for evidence and I always get none. Where's this expert that agrees with you and disagrees with me? That's what I asked for.
Why are you asking for people to provide you with individual experts, when that's not how scientific consensus works? You've got a tendency to focus on individual figures who say things you like, and then to refer to them as things like "the top" expert, as if there's a ranking board and your favourite YouTube rando is at the top. But people who actually acknowledge how the scientific process works aren't going to do that; they're going to look at the consensus, the overall preponderance of evidence.
 

Agema

You have no authority here, Jackie Weaver
Legacy
Mar 3, 2009
8,598
5,963
118
Almost all of them are from finding and taking non-human versions of the drug. And the few from prescriptions could easily be improper dosing.
You would strongly benefit from waking the fuck up and stopping trying to fob off reality because you don't like what it's telling you.

You need to accept that some people get hospitalised and potentially die because of ivermectin. Even if it is a mistake in dosing, you need to accept that every time a drug is prescribed, there is a risk it will be misused. That risk of misuse needs to be part of the calculation that healthcare providers consider in prescribing.

1st article was like just don't gather cheek-to-cheek and you're fine.
Okay, that sounds a bit like you're beginning to get it: the more people you are close to and the closer you are to them, the more risk goes up: even outdoors. Now do you understand why I have been saying for over a year that there are activities people can do outdoors involving close contact that put them at unusual risk, where they might find it appropriate to use some form infection control, like masks?

Why would I literally argue that no one advised for ventilation? Why do you think I knew ventilation was important in the 1st place? You think it was my own idea? I don't feel like spelling out every single thing.
Let's recap, shall we?

Phoenixmgs said:
If you think the public was messaged about ventilation for covid, then you're literally a crazy person.
...
Show me articles and officials like Fauci saying how important ventilation is?
How else are we supposed to interpret this? You claim the public was not not messaged, and challenge us to find any evidence officials such as Fauci provided advice on ventilation. Lo and behold, we did in both cases.

The message went out... and maybe some people did not pay sufficient attention. Although that said, to a large extent this messaging was mostly aimed at organisations anyway, who run places where large numbers of people from multiple households tend to congregate (schools, shops, workplaces, etc.) You also need to factor in that millions of people like you all the way to Trump were waging a media war over bullshit like HCQ, ivermectin and anti-mask arguments. If you're consuming a lot of the media oxygen needed to get proper public health messaging across, don't complain when some of that messaging gets drowned out.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Cheetodust

Trunkage

Nascent Orca
Legacy
Jun 21, 2012
8,697
2,881
118
Brisbane
Gender
Cyborg
How else are we supposed to interpret this? You claim the public was not not messaged, and challenge us to find any evidence officials such as Fauci provided advice on ventilation. Lo and behold, we did in both cases.

The message went out... and maybe some people did not pay sufficient attention. Although that said, to a large extent this messaging was mostly aimed at organisations anyway, who run places where large numbers of people from multiple households tend to congregate (schools, shops, workplaces, etc.) You also need to factor in that millions of people like you all the way to Trump were waging a media war over bullshit like HCQ, ivermectin and anti-mask arguments. If you're consuming a lot of the media oxygen needed to get proper public health messaging across, don't complain when some of that messaging gets drowned out.
I have a theory. People like this actually believe that those that watch MSM are actual sheeple who cant think for themselves. It's not a gimmick or to score political points. Thus, any clear indication of the MSM failing to drive that narrative is utterly inconceivable to them. The only possible recourse is to imagine it never happened even if there is clear evidence to the contrary

(This may not be a theory)
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dalisclock

Agema

You have no authority here, Jackie Weaver
Legacy
Mar 3, 2009
8,598
5,963
118
I have a theory. People like this actually believe that those that watch MSM are actual sheeple who cant think for themselves. It's not a gimmick or to score political points. Thus, any clear indication of the MSM failing to drive that narrative is utterly inconceivable to them. The only possible recourse is to imagine it never happened even if there is clear evidence to the contrary
I care nothing for almost anyone complaining about the "MSM", because when you dig a little they are almost inevitably consuming media that is even worse.

* * *

I think the nature of intelligence is that it is about making sense of the world around us, and our understanding of it is a mass of information connected together in a huge, complex, interlocking, consistent intellectual structure. When we see a fact inconsistent with that structure, it tends to be rejected because it is too small to counteract the size of the structure. Secondly, understanding is psychologically comfortable: the unknown is scary. A fact inconsistent with the dominant structure threatens to derail something much, much larger: the comforting fantasy that we understand something. It is psychologically hard work, painful, even humiliating, to have to dismantle our understanding of the world, even if we can then build a better one.

In the end, it's much easier for someone facing a challenge to their beliefs to assume other people are ignorant, stupid, biased, etc.: that's what the whole "sheeple" stuff is really about. At worst, getting towards cults, it can become some sort of messianic zeal and sense of self-importance or being special, even powerful, due to some privileged insight. But I suspect in those cases it's an attempt to replace a void where their self-identity, self-esteem and/or self-confidence should be.

That's why, ultimately, I believe in trying to maintain a sort of intellectual humility: basically, openness to being wrong. Perhaps you could call it an ideology of doubt, or skepticism. By all means trounce arrant nonsense, but always remember that something might come along and obliterate your beliefs too, and when it does, make sure you take it seriously.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Trunkage

Phoenixmgs

The Muse of Fate
Legacy
Apr 3, 2020
9,029
800
118
w/ M'Kraan Crystal
Gender
Male
When all else fails, just refer to people's lives in dollar value, because you're totally not a Larry Sommers tier ghoul, certainly not.

And probably lose anyway, as last I checked the states that scrapped pandemic relief early (which is to say red states that went lighter on lockdowns) recovered more slowly than other states.
That's not what the cost-benefit analysis did. If you're not gonna argue genuinely, then don't argue. Where's a single cost-benefit analysis saying lockdowns actually worked?

It's just simply untrue you comment on all evidence posted.

And usually your commentary boils down to simple misunderstanding or arrogant dismissal, followed by the usual insistence that nobody has given you any evidence because you didn't properly understand or properly address what was provided.



Why are you asking for people to provide you with individual experts, when that's not how scientific consensus works? You've got a tendency to focus on individual figures who say things you like, and then to refer to them as things like "the top" expert, as if there's a ranking board and your favourite YouTube rando is at the top. But people who actually acknowledge how the scientific process works aren't going to do that; they're going to look at the consensus, the overall preponderance of evidence.
I asked for a single expert in that instance because it's asinine to say ventilation without masking isn't going to do anything, and I very much doubt anyone is on record saying that. The consensus is clearly that ventilation is important.

You would strongly benefit from waking the fuck up and stopping trying to fob off reality because you don't like what it's telling you.

You need to accept that some people get hospitalised and potentially die because of ivermectin. Even if it is a mistake in dosing, you need to accept that every time a drug is prescribed, there is a risk it will be misused. That risk of misuse needs to be part of the calculation that healthcare providers consider in prescribing.
Pretty all the cases are from people acquiring their own ivermectin. Remdesivir is worse, does nothing, and given out like candy. If you wanna make standards, fine, but you have to apply it to everything. There's no reason why remdesivir is STILL given out (just heard a nurse talking about giving remdesivir the other day) and ivermectin was demonized.

Okay, that sounds a bit like you're beginning to get it: the more people you are close to and the closer you are to them, the more risk goes up: even outdoors. Now do you understand why I have been saying for over a year that there are activities people can do outdoors involving close contact that put them at unusual risk, where they might find it appropriate to use some form infection control, like masks?
Any study saying masks will do anything to help that has, you know, a control group? And you just have to not be body to body with people and you're perfectly fine. Do you know what has more inverse health affects than doing things outside? Not doing things outside because you're scared of covid. Stuff like closing beaches or cancelling kids outdoor activities only harmed people's health.

Let's recap, shall we?



How else are we supposed to interpret this? You claim the public was not not messaged, and challenge us to find any evidence officials such as Fauci provided advice on ventilation. Lo and behold, we did in both cases.

The message went out... and maybe some people did not pay sufficient attention. Although that said, to a large extent this messaging was mostly aimed at organisations anyway, who run places where large numbers of people from multiple households tend to congregate (schools, shops, workplaces, etc.) You also need to factor in that millions of people like you all the way to Trump were waging a media war over bullshit like HCQ, ivermectin and anti-mask arguments. If you're consuming a lot of the media oxygen needed to get proper public health messaging across, don't complain when some of that messaging gets drowned out.
Ventilation was not effectively communicated as stated by tons of experts. How many people know about masks vs ventilation? There's your answer. And I just provided an article saying 2/3s of people are unaware. I wonder why. When outdoor activities are cancelled, don't you think people are gonna think the outside isn't safe? When people are yelling at others for not masking outside, you think they were communicated ventilation is very important? You think when there's more bicyclists wearing masks than helmets that ventilation was effectively communicated? That shows how inept the communication was with regards to risk, wearing a helmet on a bicycle reduces risk far more than wearing a mask that does nothing.
 

crimson5pheonix

It took 6 months to read my title.
Legacy
Jun 6, 2008
36,144
3,341
118
That's not what the cost-benefit analysis did. If you're not gonna argue genuinely, then don't argue. Where's a single cost-benefit analysis saying lockdowns actually worked?
Sorry, I don't assign dollar values to lives. Why not prove Florida consistently had a better than average death rate? I'm not sure how you're going to do this, since all available CDC data says they did below average, but hey. Maybe one day you'll find a source worth listening to.