Our Covid Response

[Phoenixmgs]

You used a paper that equates lives to money to make it's point. That section isn't even worth talking about because the source is literally "dude, trust me".



You linked it yourself, in your own paper. Read your own paper. Read anything. Read what you yourself write. Until you do, you're literally not worth talking to. This will be my last post to you on this subject because this is farcical. Nobody should take you seriously. There's low information opinions, and then there's whatever abyss you've thrown yourself into of blind faith and staunch zeal in just being wrong about everything.

Nope, you just don't like it because it doesn't conform to your beliefs. There's nothing wrong with that section and it proves lockdowns don't save life.

It is farcical because you can't provide a single shred of proof for any of your arguments ever.

There has only been just over a million people die of Covid this year to date

The yearly average for flu deaths around the world is somewhere between 250 and 650k per year

Covid is still killing more people than the flu

And when look at the covid death rate post-immunity, is covid actually killing more than the flu? Also, covid is the reason there is no flu so to come up with the actual deaths netted because of covid, you have to deduct ~2 years worth of flu deaths basically.

It is questionable whether there even is such thing as natural immunity to COVID, and long COVID can happen vaxxed or not. A strategy of vaccination can only, at the very maximum, be as effective as the relative lack of viral mutation allows it to be. The more we let COVID spread, the less effective our vaccinations are and the less effective any speculated 'natural immunity' might be because viruses change and evolve the more you allow them to replicate. And that's what we are allowing.

What more do I want? What more don't I want? We haven't even begun taking COVID-19 seriously. But some of us are content to repeatedly gain the lethal preexisting conditions of COVID-19 that arise from having had COVID-19. Stop the fucking spread. That's what I want.

Literally every single paper on the subject says there's natural immunity to covid and it's better than vax immunity. I don't know why you're just completely ignoring facts. The virus mutations can't get around immunity. Sure, you may have a mutation that's better against immunity than another version but built-in immunity is still very very helpful in preventing serious disease. Why are you putting natural immunity in quotes like it's not a thing?

It's not possible to stop the spread of covid, it wasn't possible in March 2020 let alone now. Even if we do the measures to get to covid 0 in the human population across the whole world (which would kill more people than covid so why would you do that?), it's in animal reservoirs, it's not ever going away.

I just want to point out that, despite being vaccinated and boosted, my sister quite probably got COVID. My nephew got COVID for sure, but I don't know if he was vaccinated because I don't know if they could vaccinate him, because he's only 5, and my sister started running a fever yesterday, which is not a good sign.

My point being that vaccines are not a guaranteed immunity. Boosters are not guaranteed immunity. Anyone who says "We have a vaccine and boosters now, what more do you want"? Try combining those vaccines and boosters with more caution, and see what happens. A family sedan is safer in a car crash than a sports car, but you still buckle your damn seatbelt if you don't want to fly out the windshield, right?

Immunity doesn't mean you can't get it, it means you have solid protection against severe disease. Why is running a fever a bad sign? Would you say getting a fever is a bad sign if it was a head cold or the flu? Getting a fever isn't bad, that's how your body gets rid of infections. The first symptom I get with covid is a fever, which is nice because I know what it is as the flu or head cold gives me a fever later in the infection vs right away. Also, covid goes away way faster than a head cold/flu for me, I'm back to 100% after 2/3 days where's a cold it's like 2/3 days of a running nose alone.

And...? Doesn't mean they aren't valid studies.



I'm arguing it because you're manufacturing stupid, pissy claims just to make people on your anti-establishment shitlist (i.e. anyone who provided advice about covid you didn't like) look bad.

Like the remdesivir above. The data available is pretty okay. But you want to stress the problem - with absolutely zero consistenvy given all the godawaful crap you've posted in support of drugs you decided weren't evil.

There's a placebo effect when you give something to people... And the study had a very minor positive effect so... probably placebo effect.

Ventilation was not effectively communicated to the public, it's fucking obvious it wasn't. You're just arguing against me just because. The data on remdesivir is not pretty okay. If the trial you linked to is the best thing we have, it's not very convincing at all. I'd rather be given like an aspirin saying it's some magic pill to achieve the placebo effect than spending thousands of dollars for the same thing. Then you still got Fauci lying his ass off about Paxlovid saying it prevented him from going to the hospital when he's had like 4 shots already, you sure it wasn't the vaccine that prevented a hospital trip Fauci? The only trial for the drug is for those non-vaccinated, thus we have no idea if it does anything if you got vaxxed but we're giving that out now with no data basically.

 

[thebobmaster]

Immunity doesn't mean you can't get it, it means you have solid protection against severe disease. Why is running a fever a bad sign? Would you say getting a fever is a bad sign if it was a head cold or the flu? Getting a fever isn't bad, that's how your body gets rid of infections. The first symptom I get with covid is a fever, which is nice because I know what it is as the flu or head cold gives me a fever later in the infection vs right away. Also, covid goes away way faster than a head cold/flu for me, I'm back to 100% after 2/3 days where's a cold it's like 2/3 days of a running nose alone.

First off, pretty much every definition of the word "immunity" that I've come across doesn't say "it mostly won't affect you". When people refer to herd immunity, do you really think they mean "Well, one or two people are still going to get sick, but we're still at herd immunity!" Let me answer that for you: no. If people get sick from a disease, herd immunity hasn't worked because someone got sick, and therefore there wasn't complete immunity.

Now, as for saying it was worrying that my sister was running a fever immediately after my nephew tested positive for COVID? I thought that would be obvious, but I'll spell it out. My nephew got a well-known contagious disease. My sister started showing symptoms of being sick after my nephew tested positive. They live in the same house, and she's been constantly exposed to him. There is a very good chance that my sister also has this very well known contagious disease that, despite your constantly downplaying how serious it is, can be extremely serious even in healthy people like my sister. I don't expect, or even particularly want, any response to this post, and if by some chance you do respond, I'm not going to respond again, as I think I'm saying everything I have to say in this post. I simply thought I'd point out that your experience with COVID is not the same as everyone else's. I haven't gotten it myself, thankfully, but I have to wonder: your case seems to have cleared up pretty nicely, which is good for you (genuinely, I'm glad that it didn't give you any problems more than a few days' fever). But there's plenty of people not as fortunate, and downplaying the number of people who died or are suffering from long COVID is more than a little frustrating to me.

 

[Trunkage]

And when look at the covid death rate post-immunity, is covid actually killing more than the flu? Also, covid is the reason there is no flu so to come up with the actual deaths netted because of covid, you have to deduct ~2 years worth of flu deaths basically.

I'm talking about the average flu season before COVID 19 even existed. Why would I pick any other numbers? You could, IDK, look up the numbers yourself. Take the time between 2009 and 2019 for the flu. Compare it to COVID 19. You could even pick a year where the flu spiked for some reason, and it's still not killing as many people. It's REALLY easy. (Estimates vary, but somewhere around 500K per year WORLDWIDE.) COVID, with a fuck ton of vaccines, is still doing 1mill in this first 6mths

As to immunity, I have yet to see anything that tells me herd immunity or immunity being permeant will be a thing. Some people have gotten all four major strains of COVID. It seems to be like the flu and just an impossibility to reach. This one is still a wait and see but the evidence for immunity is not great. It doesn't matter if its a vaccine or you contracted it

 

[Phoenixmgs]

First off, pretty much every definition of the word "immunity" that I've come across doesn't say "it mostly won't affect you". When people refer to herd immunity, do you really think they mean "Well, one or two people are still going to get sick, but we're still at herd immunity!" Let me answer that for you: no. If people get sick from a disease, herd immunity hasn't worked because someone got sick, and therefore there wasn't complete immunity.

Now, as for saying it was worrying that my sister was running a fever immediately after my nephew tested positive for COVID? I thought that would be obvious, but I'll spell it out. My nephew got a well-known contagious disease. My sister started showing symptoms of being sick after my nephew tested positive. They live in the same house, and she's been constantly exposed to him. There is a very good chance that my sister also has this very well known contagious disease that, despite your constantly downplaying how serious it is, can be extremely serious even in healthy people like my sister. I don't expect, or even particularly want, any response to this post, and if by some chance you do respond, I'm not going to respond again, as I think I'm saying everything I have to say in this post. I simply thought I'd point out that your experience with COVID is not the same as everyone else's. I haven't gotten it myself, thankfully, but I have to wonder: your case seems to have cleared up pretty nicely, which is good for you (genuinely, I'm glad that it didn't give you any problems more than a few days' fever). But there's plenty of people not as fortunate, and downplaying the number of people who died or are suffering from long COVID is more than a little frustrating to me.

Different viruses/bacteria provide different immunities, some you literally don't get again and others just offer protection against severe disease. This isn't some new discovery, that's just how it works based on several factors.

I'm talking about the average flu season before COVID 19 even existed. Why would I pick any other numbers? You could, IDK, look up the numbers yourself. Take the time between 2009 and 2019 for the flu. Compare it to COVID 19. You could even pick a year where the flu spiked for some reason, and it's still not killing as many people. It's REALLY easy. (Estimates vary, but somewhere around 500K per year WORLDWIDE.) COVID, with a fuck ton of vaccines, is still doing 1mill in this first 6mths

As to immunity, I have yet to see anything that tells me herd immunity or immunity being permeant will be a thing. Some people have gotten all four major strains of COVID. It seems to be like the flu and just an impossibility to reach. This one is still a wait and see but the evidence for immunity is not great. It doesn't matter if its a vaccine or you contracted it

My question isn't about flu deaths but covid deaths post immunity. It's easy to get flu death data, where's the covid post immunity fatality data? That's what I'm asking for. I'm willing to bet it's about the same as the flu. Immunity doesn't mean you won't ever get it again. Every piece of data on the subject says covid immunity lasts quite awhile. Just because you get sick doesn't mean you don't have immunity.

 

[Seanchaidh]

Literally every single paper on the subject says there's natural immunity to covid and it's better than vax immunity.

That's just not true.

 

[Kwak]

Literally every single paper on the subject says there's natural immunity to covid and it's better than vax immunity.

Holy shit how can you make a claim that huge against all current evidence, and still have the audacity not to even back it up with a pathetic link?
Jesus christ do you even give a shit about truth?

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2118946

 

[tstorm823]

Holy shit how can you make a claim that huge against all current evidence, and still have the audacity not to even back it up with a pathetic link?
Jesus christ do you even give a shit about truth?

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2118946

To be clear, you're posting a link to back him up?

 

[Phoenixmgs]

That's just not true.

Yeah it is, even CDC numbers say so.

CDC Study: Natural Immunity Provides Significantly More Protection Against COVID Than Vaccination Only

A CDC study shows that those who have recovered from COVID-19 have more protection against infection than those who have only been vaccinated.

ijr.com

Holy shit how can you make a claim that huge against all current evidence, and still have the audacity not to even back it up with a pathetic link?
Jesus christ do you even give a shit about truth?

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2118946

From your own study:

The results reported here are in line with those of a study conducted by an Israeli health maintenance organization. That study showed that previously infected persons with or without one vaccine dose have better protection than uninfected persons who have received two doses of vaccine 3 to less than 8 months after the last immunity-conferring event.

 

[Kwak]

from that.
"... however, this protection was higher than that conferred after the same time had elapsed since receipt of a second dose of vaccine among previously uninfected persons. A single dose of vaccine after infection reinforced protection against reinfection."

More recently.

Interim statement on hybrid immunity and increasing population seroprevalence rates

The World Health Organization (WHO) with the support of Strategic Advisory Group of Experts (SAGE) on Immunization and its COVID-19 Vaccines Working Group, continues to review the emerging evidence on the increasing seroprevalence rates against SARS-CoV-2 globally and the characteristics and...

www.who.int

This statement reflects the current understanding of hybrid immunity and highlights the gaps in evidence and potential implications for vaccination schedules and strategies.
...
Hybrid immunity resulting from three or more exposures to the virus antigen (i.e., one or more exposures from vaccination and one or more from SARS-CoV-2 infections before or after vaccination) may provide superior protection (as measured by neutralization capacity) against VOCs, including Omicron, compared with two doses of vaccination, or previous SARS-CoV-2 infection without vaccination15. Waning of hybrid immunity, particularly due to Omicron infections is not yet characterized in magnitude or duration. More data are needed for a precise quantification of the immune protection from hybrid immunity compared with vaccine-induced immunity normalised for the same antigen exposure.
...

While the overall evidence suggests that hybrid immunity offers superior protection against severe outcomes due to COVID-19 compared to infection-induced or vaccine-induced immunity alone, it is unclear whether this protection will persist with new variants. For instance, evolving evidence suggests that an Omicron BA.1 infection offers only limited protection against symptomatic disease caused by the emerging sub-lineages of Omicron (BA.4 and BA.5)19.
...
Vaccination against COVID-19 reduces the risk of severe morbidity, and curtails the burden on health systems by protecting against hospitalization and death. Moreover, hybrid immunity confers improved protection compared to infection-induced immunity alone.

Last year.

newsGP - COVID immunity following natural infection likely short-lived: Study

New research suggests reinfection can occur in as little as three months, strengthening the argument for vaccination.

www1.racgp.org.au

How long does protective immunity against COVID-19 last after infection or vaccination? Two immunologists explain

Because COVID-19 is a relatively new virus, researchers still aren’t sure exactly how long vaccines and prior infections provide protection.

theconversation.com

There are contradictory reports on whether the protective immunity triggered following an active infection is better than that induced by the current vaccines. This may have resulted from the emergence of different variants of the virus during the study.

However, the broad consensus is that COVID-19 infection can give rise to protection comparable to that from the vaccines, as shown in a recent study that has not yet been peer-reviewed.

Hybrid immunity
Researchers have also found that the protective immunity acquired from the combination of a COVID-19 infection followed by vaccination – called hybrid immunity – is very potent and remains effective for more than a year after infection with COVID-19.

Interestingly, hybrid immunity triggers a very strong antibody response over an extended period.

Such studies show how important it is for even people who have been previously infected with COVID-19 to get vaccinated to ensure the most robust protection against COVID-19.

 

[Phoenixmgs]

Snip

Getting exposed either to the vaccine or virus will boost immunity for a short time period. I don't get your point unless you're going to get a shot every 3 months or something.

Immunity doesn't just mean you can't get infected, it also includes providing protection against severe disease when you do get infected again, which is not short-lived.

Literally every single study done on natural vs vaccine immunity has put natural ahead of vaccine in effectiveness. Your study's numbers say the exact same thing. Your body seeing the actual virus vs just the spike protein makes antibodies against more of the virus so if it mutates, chances are higher your body has a remembered antibody that will work.

Here's a hazard graph from the CDC that shows that hybrid immunity is ever so very very very slightly better than just plain natural immunity. You think most people's risk tolerances are so "touchy" that they would care about having to get vaccinated to gain that ever-so-slight boost in protection that hybrid immunity offers? Take note of that rather huge difference between just plain vaccination and then anyone with natural immunity.

https://stacks.cdc.gov/view/cdc/113253

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

I can't help but feel like you're forgetting that in order to get the natural immunity, you have to get the dangerous pathogen with incredibly dangerous side effects

 

[The Rogue Wolf]

I can't help but feel like you're forgetting that in order to get the natural immunity, you have to get the dangerous pathogen with incredibly dangerous side effects

Well, yeah, but if someone does that and then dies, I get to feel superior to them. Vaccines are cheating!

 

[Phoenixmgs]

I can't help but feel like you're forgetting that in order to get the natural immunity, you have to get the dangerous pathogen with incredibly dangerous side effects

I never said anything against getting vaccines if you never been infected nor have I ever said to purposefully get infected because it's better. I always bring it up because of the asinine vax mandate bullshit that never made any sense. When vaccines were made available ~1/3 of the American population already had covid, thus why would you mandate that everyone get vaxxed? It never made any sense from the start. There's no reason I needed to get a vaccine because I had covid already but I was forced to. Where's you on your soapbox about bodily choice on that?

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

I never said anything against getting vaccines if you never been infected nor have I ever said to purposefully get infected because it's better. I always bring it up because of the asinine vax mandate bullshit that never made any sense. When vaccines were made available ~1/3 of the American population already had covid, thus why would you mandate that everyone get vaxxed? It never made any sense from the start. There's no reason I needed to get a vaccine because I had covid already but I was forced to. Where's you on your soapbox about bodily choice on that?

Exigent circumstances and the need for standardized control. But then the first week the county said people needed to wear masks, I saw catcher's masks, people asking me to make them fake mask exemption cards, and somebody blatantly lying about having hypoxia, so I'm a tad more sympathetic to basic disease control measures

 

[Phoenixmgs]

Exigent circumstances and the need for standardized control. But then the first week the county said people needed to wear masks, I saw catcher's masks, people asking me to make them fake mask exemption cards, and somebody blatantly lying about having hypoxia, so I'm a tad more sympathetic to basic disease control measures

We didn't make everyone get measles vaccines 50 years ago. It's not hard to exclude those that don't need it. Also the vaccines don't stop spread so there's no point in protecting others by getting everyone immune. It's basically all personal risk, there was no reason to mandate the vax and there never was. Again why can't you stay consistent in your principles? For abortion, it's all choice, for vaccines, it's forcing medical intervention on people.

 

[Avnger]

We didn't make everyone get measles vaccines 50 years ago.

Technically, you are correct. However, 45 years ago we decided to fix that and shortly thereafter were already vaccinating more than 90% of school children against MMR, DTaP, and polio....

The 1977 Childhood Immunization Initiative, which aimed to identify kids missing a childhood vaccination and raise kids’ vaccination rate for the standard childhood vaccines to 90%, also illustrated schools’ potential to promote vaccination, Colgrove says. About 28 million school records were reviewed to identify kids who were missing a shot and refer them for vaccination. By the fall of 1980, the vaccination rate among kids enrolling in school was 96% for measles, rubella and diphtheria-tetanus-pertussis; 95% for polio; and 92% for mumps.

Schools Could Help More Kids Get the COVID-19 Vaccine. But History Has Some Warnings

Now that the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has recommended Pfizer-BioNTech’s COVID-19 vaccine for kids aged 5 to 11, the Biden Administration has signaled that it will rely on a “trusted messenger” to get information to parents and provide access to vaccines: schools. As part of the...

time.com

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

We didn't make everyone get measles vaccines 50 years ago. It's not hard to exclude those that don't need it. Also the vaccines don't stop spread so there's no point in protecting others by getting everyone immune. It's basically all personal risk, there was no reason to mandate the vax and there never was.

Worked just fine until the variants cropped up. Now it's mutating faster than vaccines keep up. Because that's what's happens when we don't take this shit seriously. And we *did* mandate measels vaccines, and as soon as we stopped because of the "personal choice" whinging, outbreaks started cropping up. Funny how that works

Again why can't you stay consistent in your principles? For abortion, it's all choice, for vaccines, it's forcing medical intervention on people.

It's almost like these are dramatically different situations or something.

 

[Phoenixmgs]

Technically, you are correct. However, 45 years ago we decided to fix that and shortly thereafter were already vaccinating more than 90% of school children against MMR, DTaP, and polio....

Schools Could Help More Kids Get the COVID-19 Vaccine. But History Has Some Warnings

Now that the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has recommended Pfizer-BioNTech’s COVID-19 vaccine for kids aged 5 to 11, the Biden Administration has signaled that it will rely on a “trusted messenger” to get information to parents and provide access to vaccines: schools. As part of the...

time.com

Yeah, because they never had measles obviously, what point are you trying to make? There is literally no scientific argument for forcing those that had covid to get vaccinated. Why is it so hard for you people to agree with actual science?

Worked just fine until the variants cropped up. Now it's mutating faster than vaccines keep up. Because that's what's happens when we don't take this shit seriously. And we *did* mandate measels vaccines, and as soon as we stopped because of the "personal choice" whinging, outbreaks started cropping up. Funny how that works

It's almost like these are dramatically different situations or something.

Covid immunity to infection long-term isn't a thing regardless of variants. The type of virus it is and where it infects you isn't going to provide protection from infection. Immunity still provides very durable protection to serious disease, it is keeping up. Even fucking SARS-1 from like 20 years ago provides protection to covid and it's a different virus. Also, it sounds like the part about being able to quickly adjust the mRNA vaccines for new variants was a lie or they just don't feel like doing it because it's not being done. People that never got infected with measles should get the measles vaccine. I don't know how that has anything to do with people who got covid needing to get vaccinated. And why are you wanting to force people to get a medical treatment that only affects the person? You're so wishy-washy with your principles, you change them based on the current issue vs staying consistent. It's a logical fallacy to be for vax mandates (especially when it doesn't protect the community in anyway) and be pro-choice for abortion, you're trying to have your cake and eat it too. Again, there is literally no scientific argument for forcing those that had covid to get vaccinated. Why is it so hard for you people to agree with actual science?

 

[Gergar12]

For some reason, my CVS won't let me take a fourth shot even if it's been six months since my booster.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Yeah, because they never had measles obviously, what point are you trying to make? There is literally no scientific argument for forcing those that had covid to get vaccinated. Why is it so hard for you people to agree with actual science?


Covid immunity to infection long-term isn't a thing regardless of variants. The type of virus it is and where it infects you isn't going to provide protection from infection. Immunity still provides very durable protection to serious disease, it is keeping up. Even fucking SARS-1 from like 20 years ago provides protection to covid and it's a different virus. Also, it sounds like the part about being able to quickly adjust the mRNA vaccines for new variants was a lie or they just don't feel like doing it because it's not being done. People that never got infected with measles should get the measles vaccine. I don't know how that has anything to do with people who got covid needing to get vaccinated. And why are you wanting to force people to get a medical treatment that only affects the person? You're so wishy-washy with your principles, you change them based on the current issue vs staying consistent. It's a logical fallacy to be for vax mandates (especially when it doesn't protect the community in anyway) and be pro-choice for abortion, you're trying to have your cake and eat it too. Again, there is literally no scientific argument for forcing those that had covid to get vaccinated. Why is it so hard for you people to agree with actual science?

I *am* agreeing with actual science. Just not your bullshit YouTube science. And yeah, What I do changes based on circumstances. Because, and I need you to follow me on this one: pregnancy is not a viral pandemic that's killed 6.3+ million people in two years. I also don't think selling your personal screwdrivers need background checks like guns. I'm wishy-washy like that