Our Covid Response

Buyetyen

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And the thing about minimum wage jobs is that a lot of them can be done by robots. Have you noticed that Walmart now has 50 self-checkout lines and only four or five real people doing cashier stuff? Fast Food places are also starting to do this, there are several McDonald's in my area in which you order on a touch screen kiosk and you pick up your order from a kitchen window and you never interact with an actual person.

Pushing for high minimum wages will just make companies automate more and more and just cut out the unskilled labor work as much as they can because there wont be any reason for it. And then people will be forced to learn a skill, plumbing, constructing, electrical work, refridgeration, whatever it might be. Simply because companies will trim the labor force and instead pay fewer specialized people more money to make for not paying a lot of people more money.
All the more reason to support a UBI. Corporations are going to automate whatever jobs they possibly can either way. And there's really no guarantee that the increase in profits will lead to a rise in wages throughout a company. More likely it will line the pockets of investors or shareholders.

The whole idea of raising the minimum wage is specifically to keep money circulating through the economy. If you don't it's like depriving the brain of blood.
 

CriticalGaming

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All the more reason to support a UBI. Corporations are going to automate whatever jobs they possibly can either way. And there's really no guarantee that the increase in profits will lead to a rise in wages throughout a company. More likely it will line the pockets of investors or shareholders.

The whole idea of raising the minimum wage is specifically to keep money circulating through the economy. If you don't it's like depriving the brain of blood.
Sure but you have to figure out the solution to the question of where would the UBI come from?
 

Baffle

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And the thing about minimum wage jobs is that a lot of them can be done by robots.
So can a lot of well-paid jobs, like stock broker and structural engineer (already very dependent on AI and computation, respectively). Hell, there's even a bricklaying robot out there (it's just not financially viable because bricklaying isn't that well paid).
 
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TheMysteriousGX

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When Irish banker types went on strike nobody noticed for 6 months, when New York garbage men went on strike, the city caved in 10 days

We have billionaire after billionaire whining about how they can't find people to work doing shit wages for shit pay and I don't see any of them pulling on an apron.

Sure but you have to figure out the solution to the question of where would the UBI come from?
They're gonna have to figure it out. Having a large underclass of very desperate people is bad for nation-states., and there won't always be a pandemic to try and cull numbers with.
 

Buyetyen

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Sure but you have to figure out the solution to the question of where would the UBI come from?
Tax the fucking rich. The top .1% control more wealth than the bottom 90%. They can afford it. There's also the idea of a sovereign wealth fund. On top of that, the UBI would allow us to consolidate most of our welfare programs under that umbrella, so a chunk of the money is already there.
 
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Silvanus

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Yes it does. You get paid based on the value you make for whomever you are working for. That's how pay works. Pay rates are valued by the value the person's job will provide the company.
Hah! That's not remotely how it works in practice. The value produced for the company by most employees is many times the amount they're remunerated for it. That's the very basis of "profit".

Which is then (often) funnelled to people who had no part in that company's value generation, such as shareholders.

Pay is determined by how little the employer can get away with paying the employee.
 
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CriticalGaming

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when New York garbage men went on strike, the city caved in 10 days
Garbage dudes make anywhere between 47 - 207k per year. I wouldnt call them bottom tier workers in any regard.

Tax the fucking rich. The top .1% control more wealth than the bottom 90%. They can afford it. There's also the idea of a sovereign wealth fund.
The rich are already taxed and in the US, the top 1% pay 40% of ALL taxed income.
 

Buyetyen

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The rich are already taxed and in the US, the top 1% pay 40% of ALL taxed income.
Now ask yourself why. You won't, so I'll do it for you. The answer is because so many people are now living below the poverty line and thus have NO TAXABLE INCOME. And they can still be taxed more. I say to restore the Eisenhower tax brackets. Even better, an income cap. All income past a certain level taxed at 100%. Nobody needs a billion dollars.
 

CriticalGaming

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Hah! That's not remotely how it works in practice. The value produced for the company by most employees is many times the amount they're remunerated for it. That's the very basis of "profit".

Which is then (often) funnelled to people who had no part in that company's value generation, such as shareholders.

Pay is determined by how little the employer can get away with paying the employee.
Not always. There are jobs that pay off comissions, and other jobs typically pay based on the overall responsibility of the person.

People tend to think that running a company is monkey brained work. It isn't. Now are some CEO's overpaid? Sure. But you know who else is overpaid? Professional Athletes. Why should anyone be uber rich for playing a game?

Oh who else? Fucking actors. Congrats they let someone film them while they LARPed, why 65million dollars a movie?

You guys all like to harp on CEOs but there are a lot better people to attack for making too much fucking money. The government for example. Show me a poor senator, or governor who acts big while their fucking state goes homeless. Lets takes their money instead. Of hell give us a big tax break to they get paid less.
 

CriticalGaming

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Now ask yourself why. You won't, so I'll do it for you. The answer is because so many people are now living below the poverty line and thus have NO TAXABLE INCOME. And they can still be taxed more. I say to restore the Eisenhower tax brackets. Even better, an income cap. All income past a certain level taxed at 100%. Nobody needs a billion dollars.
Question if you where to provide a UBI how much would you give a person?
 

Buyetyen

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Not always. There are jobs that pay off comissions, and other jobs typically pay based on the overall responsibility of the person.

People tend to think that running a company is monkey brained work. It isn't. Now are some CEO's overpaid? Sure. But you know who else is overpaid? Professional Athletes. Why should anyone be uber rich for playing a game?

Oh who else? Fucking actors. Congrats they let someone film them while they LARPed, why 65million dollars a movie?

You guys all like to harp on CEOs but there are a lot better people to attack for making too much fucking money. The government for example. Show me a poor senator, or governor who acts big while their fucking state goes homeless. Lets takes their money instead. Of hell give us a big tax break to they get paid less.
So you agree there should be an income cap?

Question if you where to provide a UBI how much would you give a person?
About 45k annually. Enough to pay bills, necessities, and spend on all the other things that make an economy run besides just grocery stores.
 

Silvanus

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Not always. There are jobs that pay off comissions, and other jobs typically pay based on the overall responsibility of the person.
Yes, a very small minority of jobs pay off commissions. Most that do not, do not remunerate their employees commensurately with their value produced. Such is the case with every job I've ever held (and I know what the value produced is for each). Such is the case for teachers, nurses, refuse workers, factory workers, electrical factory staff...

People tend to think that running a company is monkey brained work. It isn't. Now are some CEO's overpaid? Sure. But you know who else is overpaid? Professional Athletes. Why should anyone be uber rich for playing a game?
I didn't mention CEOs. Running a company I'm sure is pretty highly stressful (though they tend to be paid 20x as much as their subordinates, and they simply do not do 20x the work).

I mentioned shareholders. They do not generate the value produced. They simply own a stake. Often purchased by money they inherited, or inherited directly.
 
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CriticalGaming

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So you agree there should be an income cap?



About 45k annually. Enough to pay bills, necessities, and spend on all the other things that make an economy run besides just grocery stores.
45k. Okay and who would make eligible for that?
 

Baffle

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This is where i got my figure.
You need to look at the real figure -- the 207K guy is probably either a mis-filing or someone who runs a garbage collection company, not the guy running behind the truck. Just look at the graph on the page you linked to see what people are really getting. It's not 200K, looks more like 38K.
 

CriticalGaming

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Everyone. It's called a universal basic income.
So why would anybody work if they get a 47k salery just for existing? And of the 280 million adults in the us. You think tax revenue alone would be enough to foot the 12.8 TRILLION dollars required for that every year?
 

CriticalGaming

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You need to look at the real figure -- the 207K guy is probably either a mis-filing or someone who runs a garbage collection company, not the guy running behind the truck. Just look at the graph on the page you linked to see what people are really getting. It's not 200K, looks more like 38K.
38k is still not a minimum wage job. And 38k in a lot of states is a pretty decent living. Apartment, bills, car, no problem. Not a wage to live large with, but a livable wage with a few major city exceptions. But a dual income household could solve that issue to boot.
 

Buyetyen

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So why would anybody work if they get a 47k salery just for existing? And of the 280 million adults in the us. You think tax revenue alone would be enough to foot the 12.8 TRILLION dollars required for that every year?
I'm willing to be persuaded to some different numbers. But to answer your first question: because they want to. If I had a guaranteed income to cover my bills and essentials, I would still be doing what I do for a living because I'm good at it and enjoy it. Now about that income cap idea...