Our Covid Response

McElroy

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 3, 2020
4,201
213
68
Finland
From a Finnish perspective: if you don't own anything and don't provide for yourself, you deserve poverty. Not absolute poverty, but definitely relative poverty. And on top of that if you do work you should get a lot more than from not working or it creates a heavy disincentive towards working at all. UBI, if implemented should cover a meager existence while the main point (because this is a Nordic nanny state that will cover your basic needs) is making the workforce more flexible. edit. Any income "cap" is fucking stupid. What the poor and downtrodden need is not solved with money. They need obnoxious amounts of human resources and near-infinite patience.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: CriticalGaming

CriticalGaming

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 3, 2020
6,204
1,638
118
I'm willing to be persuaded to some different numbers. But to answer your first question: because they want to. If I had a guaranteed income to cover my bills and essentials, I would still be doing what I do for a living because I'm good at it and enjoy it. Now about that income cap idea...
But isnt this whole argument based on people working shit jobs for shit pay? Who would work a shit job for no reason?

Also you are saying that even the billionaires you hate would get that extra 47k.

If anything the UBI should at most be supplemental. Enough to help some people get over the hump. Let's say 500 bucks a month.

Actually even that is over a trillion bucks a year. There simply isnt money generated to do a UBI. I dont see any way to do it.

Again i think the best way is still attacking the problem from a different side. Rent caps, affordable health coverage, things like this, which can provide for people without crushing the economic income levels.
 

Baffle

Elite Member
Apr 6, 2020
1,932
829
118
38k is still not a minimum wage job. And 38k in a lot of states is a pretty decent living. Apartment, bills, car, no problem. Not a wage to live large with, but a livable wage with a few major city exceptions. But a dual income household could solve that issue to boot.
I'm not saying it is a minimum wage job, I'm saying you need to be careful when you look at figures if you're coming away with the idea that garbage collectors earn 200K a year. Nor should garbage collection be minimum wage, those people graft. It's better than the same job gets in the UK.
 

TheMysteriousGX

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 12, 2020
4,399
2,194
118
Country
United States
...weird bit about owning things aside, I'd kill for a Nordic nanny state. My roommate's been in the hospital for 3 days and counting and the financial blow is in the "well, bankruptcy if the crowdfunding doesn't come through" territory.
 

TheMysteriousGX

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 12, 2020
4,399
2,194
118
Country
United States
But isnt this whole argument based on people working shit jobs for shit pay? Who would work a shit job for no reason?
If you want people to work a shit job, you need to compensate them appropriately. Maybe we don't need clusters of 6 fast food joints every 10 blocks
Also you are saying that even the billionaires you hate would get that extra 47k.
With a smile on my face. We already subsidize them a couple orders of magnitude above that.
Again i think the best way is still attacking the problem from a different side. Rent caps, affordable health coverage, things like this, which can provide for people without crushing the economic income levels.
Again, what's the functional difference? What does "crushing the economic income levels" even mean that isn't already applying to the 1%?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Buyetyen

CriticalGaming

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 3, 2020
6,204
1,638
118
...weird bit about owning things aside, I'd kill for a Nordic nanny state. My roommate's been in the hospital for 3 days and counting and the financial blow is in the "well, bankruptcy if the crowdfunding doesn't come through" territory.
Does the hospital or government not offer assistance? Or financing? I know my little hospital stay (where i died for a bit) was 17k. But i applied for assistance and they took 10k, then i got a payment plan for the rest.
 

McElroy

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 3, 2020
4,201
213
68
Finland
...weird bit about owning things aside, I'd kill for a Nordic nanny state. My roommate's been in the hospital for 3 days and counting and the financial blow is in the "well, bankruptcy if the crowdfunding doesn't come through" territory.
Yeah, I've seen the bills from some breast cancer treatments and they would rack pretty fucking high without the national medical reimbursement for all of the medicine and over 90% of the other treatment getting covered by general insurance. edit: Being chronically ill and using health services a lot can deal great economic damage, of course, unless you have liquid savings.
 
Last edited:

CriticalGaming

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 3, 2020
6,204
1,638
118
This question is an indication that capitalism is wage slavery.
If that is true than you can say anything is slavery. Making your kid do chorus is television slavery. Going to school is education slavery.

The very nature of the work environment is not slavery because you sign a contract that agrees to provide a service in return for some money. And the fact that you have the freedom to work wherever you want (within qualifications) also disproves "wage salvery".
 

Baffle

Elite Member
Apr 6, 2020
1,932
829
118
I know my little hospital stay (where i died for a bit) was 17k. But i applied for assistance and they took 10k, then i got a payment plan for the rest.
Why are you happy with this situation!? This is fucking mental! When my dad died he was in intensive care for five days and not even once did we worry about paying for it. A few months ago I was worried about a lump I found on my body (it was fine, I'm just lumpy) so I rang the doctor and they saw me later that day and said 'no, you're okay' and I went on my way. I spent my younger years in and out of hospital trying to resolve poor hearing (mostly successfully). All done, all good, my ears mostly work. Didn't have to pay for it.
 

CriticalGaming

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 3, 2020
6,204
1,638
118
Why are you happy with this situation!? This is fucking mental! When my dad died he was in intensive care for five days and not even once did we worry about paying for it. A few months ago I was worried about a lump I found on my body (it was fine, I'm just lumpy) so I rang the doctor and they saw me later that day and said 'no, you're okay' and I went on my way. I spent my younger years in and out of hospital trying to resolve poor hearing (mostly successfully). All done, all good, my ears mostly work. Didn't have to pay for it.
I mean I'm not happy about it. But I'd rather pay 7k than 17k.

Health care is garbage in the US. You'll get no argument from me in that regard. It needs a lot of work.
 

TheMysteriousGX

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 12, 2020
4,399
2,194
118
Country
United States
This question is an indication that capitalism is wage slavery.
The hilarious standard where if you give poor people a pittance they'll stop working entirely because they're lazy wastrels, but if you give the already rich piles and piles of cash they will definitely be encouraged to work.

I figure we should try reversing that for a bit. You know, just to see how it feels.
 

Agema

You have no authority here, Jackie Weaver
Legacy
Apr 3, 2020
7,061
4,256
118
The hilarious standard where if you give poor people a pittance they'll stop working entirely because they're lazy wastrels, but if you give the already rich piles and piles of cash they will definitely be encouraged to work.

I figure we should try reversing that for a bit. You know, just to see how it feels.
Yes, but that is the concept of modern day capitalism. Both rich and poor are to be motivated by earning more money, but the rich are incentivised by the pleasure of luxury and the poor by the threat of penury.
 

Seanchaidh

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 24, 2020
3,617
1,988
118
Country
United States of America
Yes, but that is the concept of modern day capitalism. Both rich and poor are to be motivated by earning more money, but the rich are incentivised by the pleasure of luxury and the poor by the threat of penury.
The more wealth, the less it means luxury or comfort and becomes simple control over others.
 

Agema

You have no authority here, Jackie Weaver
Legacy
Apr 3, 2020
7,061
4,256
118
The more wealth, the less it means luxury or comfort and becomes simple control over others.
If we mean motivation, I'm not sure it's necessarily desire to control as it is simple ego: status-seeking, one-upmanship, vanity, arrogance. Exercising control is certainly a practical endpoint, however. People with power tend to use it, and power corrupts.
 

Gergar12

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 24, 2020
1,495
437
88
Country
United States

You liars at the FDA. You know a third or second shot makes people more protected to a Covid-19 breakthrough case. I have never trusted the government as soon as Fauci lied about the masks for the greater good. If you read in between the lines they want more shots for the developing world before Americans get a 3rd shot. I disagree. It's not an either-or. You can have both. You just need to scale up the inputs.