Pakistan Bans Facebook Over "Everybody Draw Mohammed Day"

[PiCroft]

I hope you don't mind me saying this, but I'm honestly surprised, and pleased. In the other threads I seem to keep going round in circles arguing the same points with people who join in the conversations, or people who are so deep-seated in their beliefs that West = right & modern, East = backwards & terrorist that it makes no difference arguing.

Glad I've actually been able to be helpful

It probably came across as the opposite, but I am not a hard atheist; I'm not anti-religion per se, I'm just very much anti fundamentalist.

I do try and keep my arguments as logically consistent as I possibly can, but your post nudged me uncomfortably to realising I may actually be arguing with a similar mindset as a fundamentalist. I think I need to analyse my viewpoint a bit and refine my reasoning and see what can be salvaged.

 

[Superbeast]

It probably came across as the opposite, but I am not a hard atheist; I'm not anti-religion per se, I'm just very much anti fundamentalist.

I do try and keep my arguments as logically consistent as I possibly can, but your post nudged me uncomfortably to realising I may actually be arguing with a similar mindset as a fundamentalist. I think I need to analyse my viewpoint a bit and refine my reasoning and see what can be salvaged.

What amused me was getting a PM [from another poster] accusing me of being an Islamic fundamentalist for "supporting terrorists" with my views, because I too am an atheist and an anti-extremist/anti-fundamentalist; so if your posts did come across that way I didn't really notice.

 

[chunkeymonke]

i think that the page should not be censored(i feel a bad burning sensation inside), however i find that everyone on that page is being a little bit of a dick. thy are simply doing this in order to piss people off without discretion. they dont care if they insult normal muslims or extremists ,they just want to insult muslims in general.


on a side note: alot of people here rag on religion, saying it is obsolete and we have the miracle of science to explain how the world works. Although i do somewhat agree with you ( as a muslim im saying this with clenched teeth). But people fail to realize that religion has brought alot of science into the world. we wouldn't have astronomy or even biology without religion for that matter. Yes during the earlier ages these sciences were basic but religion set the ground work for people to try and understand the world and universe around them. i wouldnt go so far as to say without religion we wouldnt have science without religion but religion did help ALOT to help sciences start. YES religion has attempted to stop science (like with evolution) but i think of it as the student surpassing the teacher, the teacher doesn't like it too much.

Religion may have "caused" the death of millions over the ages but it wasn't the religion it self that caused the death it was people reinterpreting their faith in order to further their political or personal goals. I think i'd like to use the NRA's slogan with this (although i dont like them either) in that religion dont kill people, people kill people. science is relatively new compared to other religions so it hasnt gone through this bastardization that religion has gone through. i mean i can think of one example were science has been used to negatively catagorize others. during the enlightenment(the time being when science began to gain popularity as the main tool in explaining the world) jews were labeled as an inferior species rather than a religion and that their death or segregation from society will benefit humanity as a whole. this is the best example of how science can also be the cause of violence, and death towards people.

so yes science has replaced religion as the main tool for explaining the world and that religion should be kept in ones home and not in politics, but it has done great things as well, like spreading morality and ethics towards each other and it is the extremists or the irrationals that choose to ignore such teachings. SO religion DOES deserve respect in my opinion event to athiests, they should at least respect religion similiar to that of a museum piece that has benefited humanity more than being a detriment to it.

really? remember the dark ages? hundreds of years with literally no scientific advancements because of religion? sorry i dont mean to sound like a dick but religion has not helped science

yes im not going to deny the dark ages was a dark time for religion (see what i did there?) but as i said in my earlier post, biology and astronomy were pretty much started because of religion. When kepler calculated that the planets rotated in an ellipse rather than a circle he was driven by a religious feeling that he would be closer to god by knowing more about the universe. Now that is an example of how religion has helped science. without religion driving kepler we wouldnt have been able to go to the moon or send satelites into space.

you know that religion made people think the earth was the center of the universe because god would make it that way?
relgion helps biology by saying it all just magically aperaerd

yes religion had its quarrels with religion, and is probably what most religious people think is a threat to religion. im not saying that science and religion go hand in hand in all paths but they have intertwined. for example carl lenaeus tha father of modern biological taxonomy was inspired to classify organisms on earth feeling that it was humanitys right to learn of gods creation.

one i would like to thank you for being fair and nice and not getting angry like sime people do. and i do understand that relgion has helped science in some ways but i think it has hurt it more

 

[Radelaide]

As one of those 115,000 fans who actually drew a picture of Mohammed, I say bring it on Pakistan and you other bitchy muslims. Here in the western world, and America especially, we have Freedom of Speach and Expression. Now, unless my expression causes you PHYSICAL HARM, you can ***** all you want but I don't have to do shit to accomodate you. Go ahead and threaten death, I support the rights of any person to say what they want to whomever they want. However, if you act on it, as you crazy extremist muslims tend to do, well then you are commiting an actual crime against an actual person, not a mythic figure that can take care of himself. And that is a big no no, which means you are going to burn in hell, if it actually exists.

...Right. So because you exercised your right to freedom of speech, you violated the religious rights of someone else? Extremist Muslims may have threatened violence but the more peaceful Muslims believe that it is a sin to draw a picture. That's just stupid. Seriously. You're a hypocrite.

The fact you did something that started in South Park says so much about you. This just strengthens my argument that South Park is stupid, out-dated and not funny.

What religious rights? Freedom to worship who and how they want? Well in America you have that, as long as you aren't physically harming someone. But as someone said before, sacrilege isn't a criminal offense in the West. I don't give exaltations to Mohammed, I don't worship that faith, or any faith for that matter. So someone else's idea of sins does NOT APPLY to me in any way, I am not subject to their whims, and they can whine all they want. Yeah, it's purposful antagonizing, but it's also a remark on the idiocy of Comedy Central's censorship and kowtowing to religious extremists. I don't care if muslims think it's a sin, their religious rights have no basis to stop my right to free speech and expression.

South Park was very funny and relevant in pointing this out. Why do muslims get special treatment? Because of the extremists that kill people. If more Christians threatened to blow up people other than doctors for mocking their god, then you'd see a lot more censoring of shows like South Park when they make fun of Christianity.

I'll take a risk of being banned here and call you ignorant. You hide behind "Freedom of Speech" to be religiously ignorant.

South Park is just designed to piss people off and amuse people who small minds who are easily amused.

 

[RUINER ACTUAL]

Well, the page is ignorant and retarded and personally, I think it should be removed. Idiots should not be tolerated.

Hey,I take offence to that!

Me too, Tunnel!

Bears, you say idiots should not be tolerated. The "idiots" are people who want to uphold free speech? Did you fuck up your sentence structure, or are you for real? The people making DEATH THREATS over RELIGION are cool though, right? You might want to rethink some things here. You are right in one respect, idiots shouldn't be tolerated. That's why we are at war with the Taliban. Tell me exactly how the page is ignorant.

 

[RUINER ACTUAL]

I'm going to expand.

The page is needlessly offensive to Muslims.

- And chanting "Death to America" is needlessly offensive to Americans.

The whole thing could be handled much more maturely.

- How? They are sending death threats and bombs in cars to our cities.

Just because you have freedom of speech doesn't mean you shouldn't try to avoid insults, regardless of what the opposition does to you.

- Regardless of what they do to us? Even TERRORISM???

The page just makes things worse.

- These people have been like this for thousands of years. I truly do not believe a little web page is going to make things worse. If anything, it makes the public at large more aware of these people and there extremist ideals.

If people decide to react like this the whole thing is never going to end.

- The only way it would end would be the elimination of religion from the Earth.

Even though I realize this kind of thing will probably never die down completely, it doesn't mean we can't at least attempt to resolve it.

- I think the US Military is doing their damn best to resolve it.

It's not about fear of what extremists will do, it's about respecting other people's beliefs.

- No, it is about fear of what they will do. They attacked Americas Capital and largest city, along with train stations and buildings in Europe, and in the past month have had 2 more bombs ready to go in NYC. They don't respect other people's beliefs. If anything, WE have tried to respect theirs. Personally, I am sick of hearing on the news another fanatic blew himself up in a market. FUCK THEIR BELIEFS.

 

[Friis]

If I remember it right, the first Draw Muhammed page on facebook was actually taken down, but the ones who made it then made this one in protest. So yeah... Facebook are a-holes too.

 

[Geekmaster]

Funny... A single guy from a danish news paper draws Muhammed and the shit REALLY hits the fan.

Half the muslim world suddenly demands everything from an official apology (while displaying extremely juvenile offensive responses, that your average Dane would'nt give a hoot about anyway) to DEMANDING SAID PERSON RELEASED INTO THEIR CUSTODY (yes, enter torture followed by execution).

Kurt Westergaard has since then both spent time living in hiding and has also been "approached" by an angry axe wielding muslim in his own house!

What's the general worldwide response? WE DANES SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF OUR LACK OF RESPECT.

Then Facebook does it... Response?

GOGO FACEBOOK. Humanity makes me sick.

And finally: If you're religious, you're ranging somewhere between mildly silly to complete idiot to raving lunatic.

Stop imposing your fantasies onto the real world. Noone would take me seriously if I worshipped aliens or claimed that Superman was real.


I'm always amazed how people are willing to take their item of worship at face value without requring any kind of proof. A stance they for some reason do not apply to anything else.

 

[aubreym]

My opinion is that Islam is generally singled out in conversations such as this one. they are definitely currently the most extreme religion in the sense of its extremists committing acts of terrorism and at a degree it's own belief system.

and thus the biggest targets to hit by any open public as a religion to hate. (as well it being media influenced I am sure)

Remember 9/11 that whole mess that sent the whole of Islam in that saspool of hatred caused by its own extremists?

The strange thing is that at different degrees humans are prone to be rebellious because of their own hatred for one another. and so they focus hatred on something they can all relate to and hate.

And in my own honest opinion, I think that draw Mohamed day is just an attempt to stir up the hive and hopefully show that it is futile to take religion seriously anymore. And it is to people who do that get offended. funnily enough people can attack Islamist in any way, it is just the extremist who go that little step further and cause a mess so that everyone intensifies their own hate.

 

[TheEvilCheese]

And finally: If you're religious, you're ranging somewhere between mildly silly to complete idiot to raving lunatic.

Stop imposing your fantasies onto the real world. Noone would take me seriously if I worshipped aliens or claimed that Superman was real.


I'm always amazed how people are willing to take their item of worship at face value without requring any kind of proof. A stance they for some reason do not apply to anything else.

Thank you.
Thank you so much.

Why do people seem to have this instant respect for religion when (to them) it is just not true?
Believe what you want but don't force your opinions on the rest of us.

 

[PiCroft]

Now here's PiCroft post, asking me for all sorts of "proof" which I am no way going to bother to research and provide in some argument against a 14 year old who visits the escapist.

My point is that, this whole thing is very much a group of people who really don't get out much. You're insulting muslims, but it's quite evident that you've never talked to one.

Ooooh character assassination eh? I don't care what your opinion of me or my argument is.

If you aren't capable of arguing without ad-homs, then don't bother. I'll argue with adults.

 

[jackanderson]

Something I found. The person that created that "Everybody Draw Mohammed Day" actually withdrew herself from the event, worried that she might get death threats and the like.

Anybody got any responses to this little nugget of information?

 

[Superbeast]

Thank you.
Thank you so much.

Why do people seem to have this instant respect for religion when (to them) it is just not true?
Believe what you want but don't force your opinions on the rest of us.

Because we should respect the non-harmful personal choices that people make?

Or some people could consider *not* respecting religion as forcing an atheist/anti-theist viewpoint upon theists.

After all, a lack of respect often entails events such as this "day", or generally being snarky and rude about such religious views. If someone holds their beliefs closely enough, then your criticism of their views implies stupidity or backwardsness, and thus appears as if you are forcing your views on them.

Why is it so difficult to *not* respect someone's choice of religion?

I'm an atheist, and a relatively strong one (apart from a touch of agnosticism) yet I manage it.

 

[robobengt]

Because we should respect the non-harmful personal choices that people make?

Or some people could consider *not* respecting religion as forcing an atheist/anti-theist viewpoint upon theists.

After all, a lack of respect often entails events such as this "day", or generally being snarky and rude about such religious views. If someone holds their beliefs closely enough, then your criticism of their views implies stupidity or backwardsness, and thus appears as if you are forcing your views on them.

Why is it so difficult to *not* respect someone's choice of religion?

I'm an atheist, and a relatively strong one (apart from a touch of agnosticism) yet I manage it.

There's still a difference between respecting the person who's made a choice you don't agree with and respecting the choice they have made.

I want to know for what reason I'm supposed to respect someones choice of what fantasy character they've "chosen" to worship. I don't respect stupidity in other forms, so why should I here?

Religious people are not idiots. They're simply misguided.

 

[chaos order]

i think that the page should not be censored(i feel a bad burning sensation inside), however i find that everyone on that page is being a little bit of a dick. thy are simply doing this in order to piss people off without discretion. they dont care if they insult normal muslims or extremists ,they just want to insult muslims in general.


on a side note: alot of people here rag on religion, saying it is obsolete and we have the miracle of science to explain how the world works. Although i do somewhat agree with you ( as a muslim im saying this with clenched teeth). But people fail to realize that religion has brought alot of science into the world. we wouldn't have astronomy or even biology without religion for that matter. Yes during the earlier ages these sciences were basic but religion set the ground work for people to try and understand the world and universe around them. i wouldnt go so far as to say without religion we wouldnt have science without religion but religion did help ALOT to help sciences start. YES religion has attempted to stop science (like with evolution) but i think of it as the student surpassing the teacher, the teacher doesn't like it too much.

Religion may have "caused" the death of millions over the ages but it wasn't the religion it self that caused the death it was people reinterpreting their faith in order to further their political or personal goals. I think i'd like to use the NRA's slogan with this (although i dont like them either) in that religion dont kill people, people kill people. science is relatively new compared to other religions so it hasnt gone through this bastardization that religion has gone through. i mean i can think of one example were science has been used to negatively catagorize others. during the enlightenment(the time being when science began to gain popularity as the main tool in explaining the world) jews were labeled as an inferior species rather than a religion and that their death or segregation from society will benefit humanity as a whole. this is the best example of how science can also be the cause of violence, and death towards people.

so yes science has replaced religion as the main tool for explaining the world and that religion should be kept in ones home and not in politics, but it has done great things as well, like spreading morality and ethics towards each other and it is the extremists or the irrationals that choose to ignore such teachings. SO religion DOES deserve respect in my opinion event to athiests, they should at least respect religion similiar to that of a museum piece that has benefited humanity more than being a detriment to it.

really? remember the dark ages? hundreds of years with literally no scientific advancements because of religion? sorry i dont mean to sound like a dick but religion has not helped science

yes im not going to deny the dark ages was a dark time for religion (see what i did there?) but as i said in my earlier post, biology and astronomy were pretty much started because of religion. When kepler calculated that the planets rotated in an ellipse rather than a circle he was driven by a religious feeling that he would be closer to god by knowing more about the universe. Now that is an example of how religion has helped science. without religion driving kepler we wouldnt have been able to go to the moon or send satelites into space.

you know that religion made people think the earth was the center of the universe because god would make it that way?
relgion helps biology by saying it all just magically aperaerd

yes religion had its quarrels with religion, and is probably what most religious people think is a threat to religion. im not saying that science and religion go hand in hand in all paths but they have intertwined. for example carl lenaeus tha father of modern biological taxonomy was inspired to classify organisms on earth feeling that it was humanitys right to learn of gods creation.

one i would like to thank you for being fair and nice and not getting angry like sime people do. and i do understand that relgion has helped science in some ways but i think it has hurt it more

fair enough im not going to deny that religion has had a habit of makeing people fight change. im only just trying to point out that some of the most basic princibples of sciences have been brought about thanks to religion and that at least it deserves some respect in that regard rather than being dismissed completely.

 

[Superfly CJ]

People telling me that I can't draw Muhammed is the same as saying i can't eat meat on a friday. It's taking other people's beliefs and forcing it on others. That is wrong. Double when you threaten death over a joke. Those people who did that (Revolution Muslims out of New York) should be ashamed and brought up on charges for death threats and inciting violence.

So, in order for them not to force their horrible beliefs on you, you force you justified beliefs on them? Thats brilliant...

Edit: Lets take it a step further! And force ALL people of different faith to become atheist just like us. That will surely solve all the worlds problems wont it? /Edit

You're right, and while we're at it we should allow people moving into a democratic country with a right to freedom of speech, human rights and due process to practice Sharia law, and stone women in the square because they decided to see a man alone without a member of the family present because it's their religious right. Or not allow women to leave the house, or show any skin. Two years ago down the street here in my city Ottawa in Canada a woman was shot and killed by her brother because she was in a car alone with her Fiancee. The family and the murderer called this an honor killing and they didn't have any remorse for it. That is Sharia law, which is what not drawing Muhammed is based on.

Religious laws are not something that should be condoned by a democratic society, and secular laws are paramount because they have given the west some of the most stable societies in the world's history, and the freedom of speech and the free exchange of ideas is the basis of our technological advancements and basic freedoms. If anyone tries to prevent me from exercising my rights that have been won over generations of struggles and bloodshed I will fight them with every ounce of my being. Me drawing Muhammed has NO effect on their Sharia because I'm not a muslim, and the reason why he was not supposed to be drawn was because he didn't want to become an idol. There is no chance in me making him an idol if I don't believe in him is there? Already the muslim world has made him into an idol, which is exactly what he didn't want.

If there is someone like that who wants to stand in the way of my rights who wants to immigrate, I would kindly ask them to stay in away. Especially when they're going to threaten death, and in some cases like with Van Gogh in Amsterdam go through with it.

They can have their beliefs, but they can't practice Sharia in my country, and they can't force it on me. No way in Hell.

I couldn't agree with you more- this post deserves a medal.

The case of Theo van Gogh is, in my opinion, the main reason why this movement should be allowed to continue uncensored. A man who was killed (I believe the terminology was 'slaughtered like a lamb') for trying to highlight social and moral injustices in regions practising Islam.

Sure, drawing Mohammed is tasteless, but it's the only way that we can make the violent element take notice. If enough people rise up against the fear of extremism, then we can overpower it, and perhaps stop people like Van Gogh from being singled out and executed again.

The detractors in this thread fail to realise that freedom of speech gives us the right to criticise others- not necessarily out of spite, but so that we can voice an opinion, and address social ills. The moment we make concessions (Saying, for example, that Islam is exempt from criticism), that right gets destroyed.

 

[chaos order]

Because we should respect the non-harmful personal choices that people make?

Or some people could consider *not* respecting religion as forcing an atheist/anti-theist viewpoint upon theists.

After all, a lack of respect often entails events such as this "day", or generally being snarky and rude about such religious views. If someone holds their beliefs closely enough, then your criticism of their views implies stupidity or backwardsness, and thus appears as if you are forcing your views on them.

Why is it so difficult to *not* respect someone's choice of religion?

I'm an atheist, and a relatively strong one (apart from a touch of agnosticism) yet I manage it.

There's still a difference between respecting the person who's made a choice you don't agree with and respecting the choice they have made.

I want to know for what reason I'm supposed to respect someones choice of what fantasy character they've "chosen" to worship. I don't respect stupidity in other forms, so why should I here?

Religious people are not idiots. They're simply misguided.

how are religious people misguided? according to you? just because we have faith in a being that we cannot prove doesnt make us stupid or misguided. look at some of the theories in physics especially when you talk about black holes or electrons. There are theories of matter appearing in space from nothing, one is made of positive mass while the other is made of negative mass then they cancel each other out. this matter come from nowhere according to physacists, there isnt any "real" proof of it yet many physascists accept it because its convenient, because it explains things well. well to a religious person having faith gives them reason, gives the goals by which to live by, and it gives explains things conveniantly to them. (pls keep in mind im not a expert in physics i just watch ALOT of science television so my claims on pysics may not be put the most eloquently)

 

[chaos order]

People telling me that I can't draw Muhammed is the same as saying i can't eat meat on a friday. It's taking other people's beliefs and forcing it on others. That is wrong. Double when you threaten death over a joke. Those people who did that (Revolution Muslims out of New York) should be ashamed and brought up on charges for death threats and inciting violence.

So, in order for them not to force their horrible beliefs on you, you force you justified beliefs on them? Thats brilliant...

Edit: Lets take it a step further! And force ALL people of different faith to become atheist just like us. That will surely solve all the worlds problems wont it? /Edit

You're right, and while we're at it we should allow people moving into a democratic country with a right to freedom of speech, human rights and due process to practice Sharia law, and stone women in the square because they decided to see a man alone without a member of the family present because it's their religious right. Or not allow women to leave the house, or show any skin. Two years ago down the street here in my city Ottawa in Canada a woman was shot and killed by her brother because she was in a car alone with her Fiancee. The family and the murderer called this an honor killing and they didn't have any remorse for it. That is Sharia law, which is what not drawing Muhammed is based on.

Religious laws are not something that should be condoned by a democratic society, and secular laws are paramount because they have given the west some of the most stable societies in the world's history, and the freedom of speech and the free exchange of ideas is the basis of our technological advancements and basic freedoms. If anyone tries to prevent me from exercising my rights that have been won over generations of struggles and bloodshed I will fight them with every ounce of my being. Me drawing Muhammed has NO effect on their Sharia because I'm not a muslim, and the reason why he was not supposed to be drawn was because he didn't want to become an idol. There is no chance in me making him an idol if I don't believe in him is there? Already the muslim world has made him into an idol, which is exactly what he didn't want.

If there is someone like that who wants to stand in the way of my rights who wants to immigrate, I would kindly ask them to stay in away. Especially when they're going to threaten death, and in some cases like with Van Gogh in Amsterdam go through with it.

They can have their beliefs, but they can't practice Sharia in my country, and they can't force it on me. No way in Hell.

I couldn't agree with you more- this post deserves a medal.

The case of Theo van Gogh is, in my opinion, the main reason why this movement should be allowed to continue uncensored. A man who was killed (I believe the terminology was 'slaughtered like a lamb') for trying to highlight social and moral injustices in regions practising Islam.

Sure, drawing Mohammed is tasteless, but it's the only way that we can make the violent element take notice. If enough people rise up against the fear of extremism, then we can overpower it, and perhaps stop people like Van Gogh from being singled out and executed again.

The detractors in this thread fail to realise that freedom of speech gives us the right to criticise others- not necessarily out of spite, but so that we can voice an opinion, and address social ills. The moment we make concessions (Saying, for example, that Islam is exempt from criticism), that right gets destroyed.

i am not against criticism of islam, if anything i encourage it, it allows for self reflection. What i am not for is blatant insults against an entire religion when a very small minority represent the extremists.