Pakistan Bans Facebook Over "Everybody Draw Mohammed Day"

[Jonluw]

Snip
So what's the definition of persecution?
Would a muslim view the mass depiction of mohammad as religious persecution? And would a facebook page promoting said depictions be likewise promoting religious persecution?

When I say persecution I mean actively doing harm to the group in question for the reason that they belong to that group. Like in the Holocaust.

Edit: Not necesarrily on that scale though.
Edit: Gaaah! Screwing up the quotes.

So like, is detaining people illegally without charge persecution?
Is screening people at the airport because of their religion or ethnicity persecution?

The definition of "persecution" can be very broad. Considering how the US media has at times suggested Obama to be a muslim, and by doing so implied that it's bad to be a muslim in general, one might consider that persecution.

Very well, I probably shouldn't have said written "persecution" I should have said something like "...if it actively encourages people to harm people of the group in question". In this context I'd say detaining people illegally without charge would count as harming, while screening based on a person's ethnicity may be justified if your country is at war with the country of his ethnicity, or if his ethnicity in other ways is cause to believe the chances of him doing something illegal on the plane is elevated to a reasonable level.

 

[OneKlicKill]

Well, the page is ignorant and retarded and personally, I think it should be removed. Idiots should not be tolerated.

So people who stand for free speach and freedom of press are "idiots and should not be tolerated"? I can only assume you are muslum or some other rediculous religous extremist who atempts to impose your views on others. These brave people brought opposition to muslum extremist who needed to be reminded that they can belive what they want. Don't attempt to convice the world that they are correct in their views by threatening death to all who oppose them. They brought this upon them selves with the death threats, hopefully isolation from major internet sites will make them realize there foolishness. And if not at least I will no longer have to deal with them online...

you make these people sound liker hereos even though they are complete dicks. although you may think religion is "ridiculous" but the majority of the world does not. this may be a message against muslim extremism but its also an insult to muslims in general. This pretty much makes everyone who has participated on that page somewhat of a douche. especially since they know they can do this without reprimand. this isnt "brave as you call it, its simply a page to spread hate and ignorance. AKA trolling

Heros no, hate speach no, dicks yes (everyone is in one way or another thats life), and it is a retaliation against muslum extremists correct, are other muslums offended correct. But in any fight, there will always be some included that are hurt but not the targets. And brave yeah. will you sighn your name to a page, with information about you linked to it? When extremists are threatening to kill those who draw mohammed. Yes most will go without reprimand, maybe all. But that is the point they are getting across. You can't threaten freedom of speach or press with death and hold your threat. There is religious satire on every religion why should the muslum faith be excluded? They all have their books and their gods they belive to be the truth. No I do not support any religion i do think it is ridiculous, but my opinion on religion has nothing to do with my support of the rights of free speech or free press. This includes the right to make satirical art of a religious figure.

i have no problem with "teasing" religion i find it hilarious at times but this page is simply there for shock and nothing more. i dont think that the muslsim faith should not be excluded seeing as that would make people avoid islam all togethor, however this site clearly just wants to bash the muslim faith. If this was truley an attempt to show the extremists that they were not afraid of them then they would atleast attampt not to insult the faith as whole which ecompases over 1 billion people

I disagree with the idea that this page was ment to "Bash" the muslum religion. The original idea was to defend the right to freedom of speach and press extending to the right to create religous satire. Now i do understand that some took this draw mohammad day as an excuse to "bash" the muslum faith and to them I agree are idiots. But to the true objective of the page, the concept of the day, and the true idealsits who understood the point they were trying to convay I profoundly support.

i honestly dont think that this page was simply a message against mulsim extremeism. i think your looking too deep into this page. although i havent been to the page, i dont think there is a line on it that says they dont wanna bash muslims in general, just the extremists. THis is a facebook group afterall not a meeting of idealists, and progressives.

The original objective was against muslum extremest to make a point that they cannot use fear to keep us from using our own rights. And for that I support the concept of the page. The other people who just joined in to bash I do not support. That is my final say in the matter. Disagree if you may but I hold true to support freedom of speech and press.

Should I bother justifying this response? Clearly you don't understand. The page is needlessley offensive, and if anyone thought it might help in the slightest then they need some serious help. "These brave people"! ha! Brave! Bullshit. It's not like terrorists are going to go around everyone's house and kill them. No, the people in the group have nothing to fear, they're just mocking a religion because they're too stupid to handle the situation maturely.

I have already explained my views on the topic above, past your comment read, agree, disagree, do as you like as it is your opinion. If you belive i am still missing something please feel free to point it out, I welcome any argument supported by fact as I do not and can never know every fact in on a topic and that can cause opinions to change.

 

[Jonluw]

Snip
But the US isn't at "war" with any one country. They're at war with "terror" or so was the party line some time ago.
A caucasian colleague of mine and his iranian-born, canadian wife were constantly detained at customs on their travel through the US. And when detained, the colleague was the only white guy in the whole room. And the custom official tried to tell him with a straight face that there was no racial profiling. That's persecution based on race.

As for your example, the definition of harm can be very broad as well.

Well, I don't know much about how things are in the US, but even though what happens to your colleague sounds like it sucks, I still think a book arguing for racial profiling should not be censored. And by the way: It seems we are beginning to move beyond the topic of free speech now.

And considering harm in the context of what you can encourage people to do in a book or similiar, I would define it as violence, physical or mental (as in mocking someone at school or work for being of a certain ethnicity). Basically, I think you can say "You should do racial profiling (is that how I make a verb out of that?) on ethnicity x" but you can not say "You should do what you can to mentally or physically hurt people of ethnicity x".

Edit: Sorry for all the hassle with my unclear definitions.

 

[Evil mr dave]

Because its relavent to this discussion you should probably watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7ok4njJXI8

The guy sounds like a condescending asshole: "(I paraphrase) The west is a glorious bastion of freedom, science and culture whilst the East is a hostile, primitive desert mob."

Well if were paraphrasing now, lets take a look at the angry mobs point of view:

"FREEDOM GO TO HELL"
"EUROPE WILL PAY"
"WE WANT DANISH BLOOD"
"SLAY THOSE WHO INSULT ISLAM"
"BUTCHER THOSE WHO MOCK ISLAM"
"BEHEAD THOSE WHO INSULT ISLAM"

Either way i have no like of religion and the especially the way religion controls nations over there.

And because this just became relavent:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbuxJieyFxg&playnext_from=TL&videos=neJ7_CzdC78&feature=sub

Now make your argument.

I for one do not see the vitriolic posters of an angry mob as an accurate and representative display of Islam as a whole. Not that you weren't exactly paraphrasing anyway; pictures of violent protesters was about the entire extent the video director went to examining the Islamic point of view. One could point out that in a society where free speech is "non-negotiable", these extremists should be allowed to display such blood thirsty posters without cendemnation or culpability.

FREEDOM is the buzz word here; These protestors want "freedom to go to hell" not because they despise the actual concept of freedom, but because they perceive the West's "freedom" as a device which serves to excuse westerners for openly insulting their culture unabated.

This whole carry on is supposed to be targeted at Muslim extremists, but really, events like "draw Muhammed day" antagonise all muslims. If they can think of a way to take the piss out of terrorists without insulting blameless members of the public, then by all means, have a ball.

Your original video talked about "what other religion behaves like this"? Well, historically almost all religions have, as well as most ethnicities, nations, and peoples behaved in such a way. I might hold this against religion (as well as ethnicities, peoples, nations etc.) except I realise that a riots and fanatacism do not represent any group as a whole.

Lets look at your video regarding the mal-treatment of women by Islam. Yes, it is terrible (from my cultural perspective) to see such cruel and unjust punishments being acted out against women. But I don't condemn Islam alone for it. Stonings, female concealment etc. have been around before Islam and Sharia law. They are part of a much older Arabic heritage. Sharia law was only adopting practises that were already familiar at the time.

That is why when you examine Islamic countries that are further from the source, you see women being treated quite differently. In Northern african Berber society, it is actually the women who hold the top positions society and the men who have to cover their faces in public. This is because whilst they are devoutly Muslim, their local, matriarcal heritage has the greater cultural and political influence. In Indonesia (the country with the largest population of Muslims in the World) and you can see an example of a free, secular state which has not adopted Sharia law, but embraced religious and cultural diversity.

I dislike Sharia law, and Muslim extremism as most people, but the "draw Mo day" is insulting to anyone of a Muslim faith, not just the extremists.

Phew, long post. I think I need a t

Too long did not read...

Just kidding, I see your point. But while this is getting a bit off topic from the original point of this thread I, personally don't like religion, and i especially don't like it when religion is used as a tool for hate mongering, discrimination and violence.


While, yes, these extremists are the most publicly identifiable representation of Islam, they are by no means the majority. Its probably safe to say that the majority of the followers of Islam just want to live their lives free of violence and hate but its still the ones who scream about wanting to slaughter people who make the news.

While i did say I do not like religion I have no problem if it exists, but as a purely private affair, no tax cuts, no government support, separation of church and state. What we really need is state supported Agnosticism, because we can't really prove or deny (yet) that any deities actually exist, so leave it up the individual to choose what they believe and have there religion have no bearing on law.

What i'm asking is the same question as the annoying gentleman in the first video:

"Does a religion, which purports to be the religion of Pease, whose followers stone women, hate people base on sexual preference, and issue death threats because of a cartoon (there was a big uproar based on an episode of south park depicting Mohammed, despite the fact that many other religious figures have been depicted in the show) have a place in future?"

Personally I sure hope not, but as stated I don't like religion and I have no idea why so many people are religious (I'm an atheist). But maybe I'm just looking at this the wrong way.
If you are religious I don't mean to offend you, I'm merely stating my opinion, and if you are religious feel free to take this as the ignorant hate speech that I realize it is on reflection.

Just as a side note I only posted the first video because i thought it was relevant to the discussion, and didn't mean to start anything.

Man, I need a drink.

Wow 368 words

 

[chunkeymonke]

i think that the page should not be censored(i feel a bad burning sensation inside), however i find that everyone on that page is being a little bit of a dick. thy are simply doing this in order to piss people off without discretion. they dont care if they insult normal muslims or extremists ,they just want to insult muslims in general.


on a side note: alot of people here rag on religion, saying it is obsolete and we have the miracle of science to explain how the world works. Although i do somewhat agree with you ( as a muslim im saying this with clenched teeth). But people fail to realize that religion has brought alot of science into the world. we wouldn't have astronomy or even biology without religion for that matter. Yes during the earlier ages these sciences were basic but religion set the ground work for people to try and understand the world and universe around them. i wouldnt go so far as to say without religion we wouldnt have science without religion but religion did help ALOT to help sciences start. YES religion has attempted to stop science (like with evolution) but i think of it as the student surpassing the teacher, the teacher doesn't like it too much.

Religion may have "caused" the death of millions over the ages but it wasn't the religion it self that caused the death it was people reinterpreting their faith in order to further their political or personal goals. I think i'd like to use the NRA's slogan with this (although i dont like them either) in that religion dont kill people, people kill people. science is relatively new compared to other religions so it hasnt gone through this bastardization that religion has gone through. i mean i can think of one example were science has been used to negatively catagorize others. during the enlightenment(the time being when science began to gain popularity as the main tool in explaining the world) jews were labeled as an inferior species rather than a religion and that their death or segregation from society will benefit humanity as a whole. this is the best example of how science can also be the cause of violence, and death towards people.

so yes science has replaced religion as the main tool for explaining the world and that religion should be kept in ones home and not in politics, but it has done great things as well, like spreading morality and ethics towards each other and it is the extremists or the irrationals that choose to ignore such teachings. SO religion DOES deserve respect in my opinion event to athiests, they should at least respect religion similiar to that of a museum piece that has benefited humanity more than being a detriment to it.

really? remember the dark ages? hundreds of years with literally no scientific advancements because of religion? sorry i dont mean to sound like a dick but religion has not helped science

yes im not going to deny the dark ages was a dark time for religion (see what i did there?) but as i said in my earlier post, biology and astronomy were pretty much started because of religion. When kepler calculated that the planets rotated in an ellipse rather than a circle he was driven by a religious feeling that he would be closer to god by knowing more about the universe. Now that is an example of how religion has helped science. without religion driving kepler we wouldnt have been able to go to the moon or send satelites into space.

you know that religion made people think the earth was the center of the universe because god would make it that way?
relgion helps biology by saying it all just magically aperaerd

 

[FinalFreak16]

Freedom of speech is fine an all but so is respecting other peoples beleifs. If someone i knew suddenly lost a relative named steve who they loved dearly and i decided to mention the name steve (in a taunting way) at any possible time they were around this is less freedom of speech and more being a total asshole.

 

[PiCroft]

I wouldn't call someone who murders for their God, whether Christian or Islamic a "religious adherent" in the first place.

Why would killing for their god make them not a religious adherent? That flies in the sense of logic and reason. The fact they kill for a god suggest they have a religion of some description to adhere to, therefore, they are religious adherents. Semantic word games do nothing to seperate a believer from their faith.

It's not about fear, it's about respect. Respecting the beliefs of millions of muslims who are actually living their lives like muslims and practicing the peace that their prophet preaches.

Respect for a person or people is earned. As for religious beliefs, respect is not warranted, especially for a belief that is fundamentally sexist, bigoted and insular. I would go so far as to say respect for any religious belief that espouses such views is morally bankrupt.

Basically, this whole thing is what:
1 - some western idiot does something that he knows will be deliberately offensive
2 - some middle-eastern idiots make death threats
3 - a whole bunch of western idiots, insult millions of muslims for the sake of a trying to "show" a few extremists.

Respect people's beliefs, and you know what, they might actually start to respect yours. Disrespect them and you'll receive the same in turn.

This isn't necessarily the case: Satire is inherently disrespectful. You can't lampoon someone, something or an idea without offence by its very nature. Why should we stymie a cherished facet of our democratic rights just because some people are so offended they issue death threats? What if Scientology started issuing death threats against people who mock them? Would you then argue that mockery of Scientology should cease, that we should respect them?

 

[Benjamin Grin]

Gah, beaten to the punch. Last page didn't load. This is me shutting up.

 

[Superior Mind]

Well I think that it's just fantastic news that drawing Mohummed still seems to have such an overblown effect. I mean I'm not for insulting people of a particular faith but I am certainly for making people of a particular faith less anally retentive about it.

 

[PiCroft]

Oh I don't know, maybe because murder goes against their faith?

According to whose interpretation of Scripture, yours? Since you seem keen on telling me to walk up to Muslims and do so-and-so, why not travel to Pakistan and tell one of the baying mob that they aren't Muslim, they don't follow Allah and what they are doing goes against their faith? Do you "have the stones"?

I'm sure the fundamentalists will just calm the fuck down when a westerner, perched atop the apex of first-world privilege, tells the Imams that they are reading their holy books wrong.

And sexism doesn't exist in the west either?

Did I say it didn't? This called a tu quoque fallacy. The difference between say, the UK and Pakistan is that in the UK, girls can go to school without worrying about being bombed, feminist organisations don't have to worry about being killed by religious thugs and a woman can actually become Prime Minister.

The West has a long way to go, but pointing at the West and saying "but they do it too!" is a childish excuse.

I'm not arguing about people stopping doing something because of death threats, just people stopping because they're being disrespectful.

So you think satire should be stopped, in case people take offence? How far should this respect go? Or is Islam a special case that should be treated differently from, say, Christianity? Because mockery of Christians happens all the fucking time and I can't remember the last riot that happened as a result.

I am not arguing getting in a Muslims face and harrassing them, but there is nothing wrong, in my view, of mocking a world view one finds abhorrent.

 

[Olikunmissile]

As one of those 115,000 fans who actually drew a picture of Mohammed, I say bring it on Pakistan and you other bitchy muslims. Here in the western world, and America especially, we have Freedom of Speach and Expression. Now, unless my expression causes you PHYSICAL HARM, you can ***** all you want but I don't have to do shit to accomodate you. Go ahead and threaten death, I support the rights of any person to say what they want to whomever they want. However, if you act on it, as you crazy extremist muslims tend to do, well then you are commiting an actual crime against an actual person, not a mythic figure that can take care of himself. And that is a big no no, which means you are going to burn in hell, if it actually exists.

I think... I think I love you.

OT: I joined that group and I drew Mohammed riding a hover board. And it was sweet.

This Pakistan thing is outright retarded. Them and their laws do not work on the internet. And if they are to advance as a nation they will need to embrace the internet. The internet has it's own rules that they are going to have to abide by or they will be lost.

massive snip

My god. Run for PM you get my vote. It's people with this train of thought and a backbone that are needed these days.

If we got someone like you in power there would be massive leaps towards working this out dated religion shit out.

 

[Olikunmissile]

double post. retarded internet, sorry.

 

[Kelethor]

Well, the page is ignorant and retarded and personally, I think it should be removed. Idiots should not be tolerated.

EDIT: Because of the many people who failed to understand, and thus responded aggresively, most notably this guy:

Spoiler

Well, the page is ignorant and retarded and personally, I think it should be removed. Idiots should not be tolerated.

Like yourself you mean? This great country is founded on freedom of speech, and I for one applaud those willing to speak out against those damn extremist, especially thru art.

I think I'll draw the "Mona Mohammed".

I'm going to expand.


The page is needlessly offensive to Muslims, the whole thing could be handled much more maturely. Just because you have freedom of speech doesn't mean you shouldn't try to avoid insults, regardless of what the opposition does to you. The page just makes things worse, and if people decide to react like this the whole thing is never going to end. Even though I realise this kind of thing will probably never die down completely, it doesn't mean we can't at least attempt to resolve it. It's not about fear of what extremists will do, it's about respecting other people's beliefs.

I understand that we need to respect the belief of others, but what I don't get is that why should we be told we cannot draw or create something just because they view it as a sacred object. i'm gonna go out on a limb here and assume that most people who join said Facebook page aren't Muslim. since they aren't Muslim, would it really matter if they drew a sacred person of a religion we do not worship? and no matter how you slice it, death threats over a cartoon are never, okay. the Muslims do not get to pull the "we find it offensive, so you cant do it" card when they threaten us with blowing up our houses.

 

[Legendsmith]

Damn extremists ruining everything for everyone.

You sir have just said something that really needed to be said. It has a deeper meaning than it first appears.

 

[The Austin]

Damn extremists ruining everything for everyone.

You sir have just said something that really needed to be said. It has a deeper meaning than it first appears.

Notice how I didn't use the word "Arabs".
You seem smart so you probably got what I was trying to say, but extremists of ALL kinds ruin everything for everyone.

Religious extremists ruin the names of religion, governmental extremists ruin the name of the government, so on and so fourth.

Whether they be White, Black, Arab or..... Yellow, they really fuck shit up.

 

[Legendsmith]

Damn extremists ruining everything for everyone.

You sir have just said something that really needed to be said. It has a deeper meaning than it first appears.

Notice how I didn't use the word "Arabs".
You seem smart so you probably got what I was trying to say, but extremists of ALL kinds ruin everything for everyone.

Religious extremists ruin the names of religion, governmental extremists ruin the name of the government, so on and so fourth.

Whether they be White, Black, Arab or..... Yellow, they really fuck shit up.

Exactly what I was getting at. I wondered if you had realised the full depth of your post. You obviously do and posted that with intention.