Pakistan Bans Facebook Over "Everybody Draw Mohammed Day"

[Marmooset]

You guys do realize Muslims are not a Borg collective, right?

He's right.
That's the LDS.

 

[Nautical Honors Society]

People should view whatever they want to view, but has anyone seen some of the drawings?

They are absolutely degrading to Muhammad. There is a difference between Muslims and Islamic Fundamentalists, and an even bigger difference between Islamic Fundamentalists and violent ones.

Muhammad is not the reason for radical terrorist actions, his followers who misinterpret his teachings are the only ones responsible.

(Btw I am not that biased here I am an American of Jewish decent).

 

[Deleted]

The extremists are being stupid and... well... extreme. But the oh so edgy people who want to draw Mohammed just to tick them off are stupid as well.

Look at me I'm such a cool guy I don't follow the rules damn am I hip and edgy.

In the end everyone is stupid.

 

[DeleteMe1112311]

Uhhh...does anybody actually know what he looks like? I'm not asking anyone to link to a picture obviously but how do we know?

 

[chaos order]

i think that the page should not be censored(i feel a bad burning sensation inside), however i find that everyone on that page is being a little bit of a dick. thy are simply doing this in order to piss people off without discretion. they dont care if they insult normal muslims or extremists ,they just want to insult muslims in general.


on a side note: alot of people here rag on religion, saying it is obsolete and we have the miracle of science to explain how the world works. Although i do somewhat agree with you ( as a muslim im saying this with clenched teeth). But people fail to realize that religion has brought alot of science into the world. we wouldn't have astronomy or even biology without religion for that matter. Yes during the earlier ages these sciences were basic but religion set the ground work for people to try and understand the world and universe around them. i wouldnt go so far as to say without religion we wouldnt have science without religion but religion did help ALOT to help sciences start. YES religion has attempted to stop science (like with evolution) but i think of it as the student surpassing the teacher, the teacher doesn't like it too much.

Religion may have "caused" the death of millions over the ages but it wasn't the religion it self that caused the death it was people reinterpreting their faith in order to further their political or personal goals. I think i'd like to use the NRA's slogan with this (although i dont like them either) in that religion dont kill people, people kill people. science is relatively new compared to other religions so it hasnt gone through this bastardization that religion has gone through. i mean i can think of one example were science has been used to negatively catagorize others. during the enlightenment(the time being when science began to gain popularity as the main tool in explaining the world) jews were labeled as an inferior species rather than a religion and that their death or segregation from society will benefit humanity as a whole. this is the best example of how science can also be the cause of violence, and death towards people.

so yes science has replaced religion as the main tool for explaining the world and that religion should be kept in ones home and not in politics, but it has done great things as well, like spreading morality and ethics towards each other and it is the extremists or the irrationals that choose to ignore such teachings. SO religion DOES deserve respect in my opinion event to athiests, they should at least respect religion similiar to that of a museum piece that has benefited humanity more than being a detriment to it.

really? remember the dark ages? hundreds of years with literally no scientific advancements because of religion? sorry i dont mean to sound like a dick but religion has not helped science

yes im not going to deny the dark ages was a dark time for religion (see what i did there?) but as i said in my earlier post, biology and astronomy were pretty much started because of religion. When kepler calculated that the planets rotated in an ellipse rather than a circle he was driven by a religious feeling that he would be closer to god by knowing more about the universe. Now that is an example of how religion has helped science. without religion driving kepler we wouldnt have been able to go to the moon or send satelites into space.

No it's not. It's an example of a religious individual helping science. Newton, for instance, was tossed in jail for going against the Bible. Religion deserves no respect. It shows time and time again that actual fact-based research gets fought against due to bronze-age faith.

The dark ages was a wonderful time for religion, it was a purely religious time. For science, however, not at all. You know why religion tries to stop science. It's not because the 'student is exceeding the teacher'. It's because science points to one 'scary' thing....that the religious hokum in holy texts is....well....hokum.

no id have to dis agree i do believe my kepler example is an exmaple of religion helping science. kepler would not have coniniued his research based on the rotaion of planets if it wasnt for religion because he didnt like his old teacher tycho brye. and example where a religious person helping science would be newton, he was religious (i think) who developed his theories and calculations wihout inspiration from religion.

give science some time eventually ell see the same type of disputes with it as we see with religion. even south park(ironic) made an episode about it (the one where cartman goes into the future to get a wii and ends up in a future where one group of atheists are human, and the other are otters fight over which science is correct.

You say you have repsect for people but not for religion but when you insult religion you insult the way people grew up, you insult their upbringing, their belief system, and their values. Thats why religion deserves at least some respect in that religion has teaches us moral values and ethics from generation to the next. Yes religious leaders have used religion in violent manners, however it is those people who chose to ignore sections of their religion and reinterpret other parts in order to justify their cause. ITs not necassarily religion itself that is the problem its how people use it. SImilar to how science can be the cause of great destruction and great peace. science can create technologies that have helped us in our daily lives, and also created the atom bomb which killed millions.

The religious THREW NEWTON IN JAIL!!!! How exactly can you look at one individual and say "Well, he's religion. He helped science." and ignore the higher up majority that grabbed his ass and threw him behind bars?

Their belief system is stupid and their morals are inadequate. It deserves no respect. Faithful nonskepticism as well as sexist dribble don't deserve applause. I've read the Bible, I've also read the Quran. I know it's religion as well as nonskeptical people who are to blame.

i wasnt talking about newtons being inspired by religion, i was talking about kepler, i know that newton did get in trouble for his theories i also said that he wasnt inspired by his faith for them.

i honestly dont think religion in and of itself is to blame it is those who are to conservative to change. religion is all about interpretation, every law and every line. as ive said multiple times its peoples reinterpretations of religion that have cause all the bad things to happen in history. Ive also said people have done this with science too, during the enlightenment era the jewish people were re labeled as an inferior race rather than a religion. SO as you can see its how people CHOOSE to interpest what they know rather than the base of information itself

 

[ZombieGenesis]

I do dislike the idea of short-sighted extremists who take things too far, imposing their beliefs and trying to restrict those of others. You get a lot of those in the USA.
I dislike the other ethic extremists too, of course.

My little jab aside, I consider both parties to be wrong on this one. The simple fact being they have no business in one anothers system of beliefs or historical traditions. One side shouldn't try to restrict the freedom of speech in people, the other should accept the close held religious traditions of the other.

Just because you have freedom of speech does not give you the right to be a jackass. In fact, people being jackasses is probably why some countries still don't have it- and I'm English, so I probably have no historical credibility when it comes to arguing against imposing things on other cultures. But damn it, humans are dumb and there's not a damn thing I can do about it.

 

[chaos order]

Well, the page is ignorant and retarded and personally, I think it should be removed. Idiots should not be tolerated.

So people who stand for free speach and freedom of press are "idiots and should not be tolerated"? I can only assume you are muslum or some other rediculous religous extremist who atempts to impose your views on others. These brave people brought opposition to muslum extremist who needed to be reminded that they can belive what they want. Don't attempt to convice the world that they are correct in their views by threatening death to all who oppose them. They brought this upon them selves with the death threats, hopefully isolation from major internet sites will make them realize there foolishness. And if not at least I will no longer have to deal with them online...

you make these people sound liker hereos even though they are complete dicks. although you may think religion is "ridiculous" but the majority of the world does not. this may be a message against muslim extremism but its also an insult to muslims in general. This pretty much makes everyone who has participated on that page somewhat of a douche. especially since they know they can do this without reprimand. this isnt "brave as you call it, its simply a page to spread hate and ignorance. AKA trolling

Heros no, hate speach no, dicks yes (everyone is in one way or another thats life), and it is a retaliation against muslum extremists correct, are other muslums offended correct. But in any fight, there will always be some included that are hurt but not the targets. And brave yeah. will you sighn your name to a page, with information about you linked to it? When extremists are threatening to kill those who draw mohammed. Yes most will go without reprimand, maybe all. But that is the point they are getting across. You can't threaten freedom of speach or press with death and hold your threat. There is religious satire on every religion why should the muslum faith be excluded? They all have their books and their gods they belive to be the truth. No I do not support any religion i do think it is ridiculous, but my opinion on religion has nothing to do with my support of the rights of free speech or free press. This includes the right to make satirical art of a religious figure.

i have no problem with "teasing" religion i find it hilarious at times but this page is simply there for shock and nothing more. i dont think that the muslsim faith should not be excluded seeing as that would make people avoid islam all togethor, however this site clearly just wants to bash the muslim faith. If this was truley an attempt to show the extremists that they were not afraid of them then they would atleast attampt not to insult the faith as whole which ecompases over 1 billion people

I disagree with the idea that this page was ment to "Bash" the muslum religion. The original idea was to defend the right to freedom of speach and press extending to the right to create religous satire. Now i do understand that some took this draw mohammad day as an excuse to "bash" the muslum faith and to them I agree are idiots. But to the true objective of the page, the concept of the day, and the true idealsits who understood the point they were trying to convay I profoundly support.

i honestly dont think that this page was simply a message against mulsim extremeism. i think your looking too deep into this page. although i havent been to the page, i dont think there is a line on it that says they dont wanna bash muslims in general, just the extremists. THis is a facebook group afterall not a meeting of idealists, and progressives.

The original objective was against muslum extremest to make a point that they cannot use fear to keep us from using our own rights. And for that I support the concept of the page. The other people who just joined in to bash I do not support. That is my final say in the matter. Disagree if you may but I hold true to support freedom of speech and press.

Should I bother justifying this response? Clearly you don't understand. The page is needlessley offensive, and if anyone thought it might help in the slightest then they need some serious help. "These brave people"! ha! Brave! Bullshit. It's not like terrorists are going to go around everyone's house and kill them. No, the people in the group have nothing to fear, they're just mocking a religion because they're too stupid to handle the situation maturely.

I have already explained my views on the topic above, past your comment read, agree, disagree, do as you like as it is your opinion. If you belive i am still missing something please feel free to point it out, I welcome any argument supported by fact as I do not and can never know every fact in on a topic and that can cause opinions to change.

i guess we agree to disagree about what the page is actually trying to do.

ANd dont get me wrong i too said that the page shouldn't be taken down due to free speech, but personally i find it an abuse of that right. When people are being dicks they usually throw the right to free speech line and say whatever they goddamn please, and thats not what was meant by it. the right to free speech isnt a free pass to be a dick to people. THe reson why i said not to take it down is because it impossible to limit what one can say and have freedom of speech, but again this IS an abuse of said right

 

[chaos order]

i think that the page should not be censored(i feel a bad burning sensation inside), however i find that everyone on that page is being a little bit of a dick. thy are simply doing this in order to piss people off without discretion. they dont care if they insult normal muslims or extremists ,they just want to insult muslims in general.


on a side note: alot of people here rag on religion, saying it is obsolete and we have the miracle of science to explain how the world works. Although i do somewhat agree with you ( as a muslim im saying this with clenched teeth). But people fail to realize that religion has brought alot of science into the world. we wouldn't have astronomy or even biology without religion for that matter. Yes during the earlier ages these sciences were basic but religion set the ground work for people to try and understand the world and universe around them. i wouldnt go so far as to say without religion we wouldnt have science without religion but religion did help ALOT to help sciences start. YES religion has attempted to stop science (like with evolution) but i think of it as the student surpassing the teacher, the teacher doesn't like it too much.

Religion may have "caused" the death of millions over the ages but it wasn't the religion it self that caused the death it was people reinterpreting their faith in order to further their political or personal goals. I think i'd like to use the NRA's slogan with this (although i dont like them either) in that religion dont kill people, people kill people. science is relatively new compared to other religions so it hasnt gone through this bastardization that religion has gone through. i mean i can think of one example were science has been used to negatively catagorize others. during the enlightenment(the time being when science began to gain popularity as the main tool in explaining the world) jews were labeled as an inferior species rather than a religion and that their death or segregation from society will benefit humanity as a whole. this is the best example of how science can also be the cause of violence, and death towards people.

so yes science has replaced religion as the main tool for explaining the world and that religion should be kept in ones home and not in politics, but it has done great things as well, like spreading morality and ethics towards each other and it is the extremists or the irrationals that choose to ignore such teachings. SO religion DOES deserve respect in my opinion event to athiests, they should at least respect religion similiar to that of a museum piece that has benefited humanity more than being a detriment to it.

really? remember the dark ages? hundreds of years with literally no scientific advancements because of religion? sorry i dont mean to sound like a dick but religion has not helped science

yes im not going to deny the dark ages was a dark time for religion (see what i did there?) but as i said in my earlier post, biology and astronomy were pretty much started because of religion. When kepler calculated that the planets rotated in an ellipse rather than a circle he was driven by a religious feeling that he would be closer to god by knowing more about the universe. Now that is an example of how religion has helped science. without religion driving kepler we wouldnt have been able to go to the moon or send satelites into space.

you know that religion made people think the earth was the center of the universe because god would make it that way?
relgion helps biology by saying it all just magically aperaerd

yes religion had its quarrels with religion, and is probably what most religious people think is a threat to religion. im not saying that science and religion go hand in hand in all paths but they have intertwined. for example carl lenaeus tha father of modern biological taxonomy was inspired to classify organisms on earth feeling that it was humanitys right to learn of gods creation.

 

[bmart008]

People telling me that I can't draw Muhammed is the same as saying i can't eat meat on a friday. It's taking other people's beliefs and forcing it on others. That is wrong. Double when you threaten death over a joke. Those people who did that (Revolution Muslims out of New York) should be ashamed and brought up on charges for death threats and inciting violence.

So, in order for them not to force their horrible beliefs on you, you force you justified beliefs on them? Thats brilliant...

Edit: Lets take it a step further! And force ALL people of different faith to become atheist just like us. That will surely solve all the worlds problems wont it? /Edit

You're right, and while we're at it we should allow people moving into a democratic country with a right to freedom of speech, human rights and due process to practice Sharia law, and stone women in the square because they decided to see a man alone without a member of the family present because it's their religious right. Or not allow women to leave the house, or show any skin. Two years ago down the street here in my city Ottawa in Canada a woman was shot and killed by her brother because she was in a car alone with her Fiancee. The family and the murderer called this an honor killing and they didn't have any remorse for it. That is Sharia law, which is what not drawing Muhammed is based on.

Religious laws are not something that should be condoned by a democratic society, and secular laws are paramount because they have given the west some of the most stable societies in the world's history, and the freedom of speech and the free exchange of ideas is the basis of our technological advancements and basic freedoms. If anyone tries to prevent me from exercising my rights that have been won over generations of struggles and bloodshed I will fight them with every ounce of my being. Me drawing Muhammed has NO effect on their Sharia because I'm not a muslim, and the reason why he was not supposed to be drawn was because he didn't want to become an idol. There is no chance in me making him an idol if I don't believe in him is there? Already the muslim world has made him into an idol, which is exactly what he didn't want.

If there is someone like that who wants to stand in the way of my rights who wants to immigrate, I would kindly ask them to stay in away. Especially when they're going to threaten death, and in some cases like with Van Gogh in Amsterdam go through with it.

They can have their beliefs, but they can't practice Sharia in my country, and they can't force it on me. No way in Hell.

 

[Superbeast]

Respect for a person or people is earned. As for religious beliefs, respect is not warranted, especially for a belief that is fundamentally sexist, bigoted and insular. I would go so far as to say respect for any religious belief that espouses such views is morally bankrupt.

Probably shouldn't be jumping into this debate again, given I've got it going on...3 threads now I think. Maybe 4.

You say we shouldn't respect their beliefs as they have not earned such respect.

But why should Muslims respect the west?

To them, this day is going to be incredibly disrespectful - so why on earth should they show us a scrap of respect back? Particularly when coalitions of Western nations are creating instability in the Middle East that is killing hundreds of thousands of moderate Muslims and only providing rhetoric for the extremists and fertile ground for their ravings. Hell, half the problems are because the Allies promised the Arabs a "unified Arab nation" after WW2, then divided it up into colonies for the English and French, so to them we have a history of reneging on our promises and being back-stabbers.

How has this day helped earn respect, for us, from them?

We claim we shouldn't respect them for their views (which aren't intrinsically Islamic but cultural/political - look at Indonesia for example), and because they show us no respect, and respect has to be earned.

By showing *them* no respect in response we are actually making the situation worse than finding other ways to disagree and show our abhorrence of extremist Islam.

 

[OneKlicKill]

Well, the page is ignorant and retarded and personally, I think it should be removed. Idiots should not be tolerated.

So people who stand for free speach and freedom of press are "idiots and should not be tolerated"? I can only assume you are muslum or some other rediculous religous extremist who atempts to impose your views on others. These brave people brought opposition to muslum extremist who needed to be reminded that they can belive what they want. Don't attempt to convice the world that they are correct in their views by threatening death to all who oppose them. They brought this upon them selves with the death threats, hopefully isolation from major internet sites will make them realize there foolishness. And if not at least I will no longer have to deal with them online...

you make these people sound liker hereos even though they are complete dicks. although you may think religion is "ridiculous" but the majority of the world does not. this may be a message against muslim extremism but its also an insult to muslims in general. This pretty much makes everyone who has participated on that page somewhat of a douche. especially since they know they can do this without reprimand. this isnt "brave as you call it, its simply a page to spread hate and ignorance. AKA trolling

Heros no, hate speach no, dicks yes (everyone is in one way or another thats life), and it is a retaliation against muslum extremists correct, are other muslums offended correct. But in any fight, there will always be some included that are hurt but not the targets. And brave yeah. will you sighn your name to a page, with information about you linked to it? When extremists are threatening to kill those who draw mohammed. Yes most will go without reprimand, maybe all. But that is the point they are getting across. You can't threaten freedom of speach or press with death and hold your threat. There is religious satire on every religion why should the muslum faith be excluded? They all have their books and their gods they belive to be the truth. No I do not support any religion i do think it is ridiculous, but my opinion on religion has nothing to do with my support of the rights of free speech or free press. This includes the right to make satirical art of a religious figure.

i have no problem with "teasing" religion i find it hilarious at times but this page is simply there for shock and nothing more. i dont think that the muslsim faith should not be excluded seeing as that would make people avoid islam all togethor, however this site clearly just wants to bash the muslim faith. If this was truley an attempt to show the extremists that they were not afraid of them then they would atleast attampt not to insult the faith as whole which ecompases over 1 billion people

I disagree with the idea that this page was ment to "Bash" the muslum religion. The original idea was to defend the right to freedom of speach and press extending to the right to create religous satire. Now i do understand that some took this draw mohammad day as an excuse to "bash" the muslum faith and to them I agree are idiots. But to the true objective of the page, the concept of the day, and the true idealsits who understood the point they were trying to convay I profoundly support.

i honestly dont think that this page was simply a message against mulsim extremeism. i think your looking too deep into this page. although i havent been to the page, i dont think there is a line on it that says they dont wanna bash muslims in general, just the extremists. THis is a facebook group afterall not a meeting of idealists, and progressives.

The original objective was against muslum extremest to make a point that they cannot use fear to keep us from using our own rights. And for that I support the concept of the page. The other people who just joined in to bash I do not support. That is my final say in the matter. Disagree if you may but I hold true to support freedom of speech and press.

Should I bother justifying this response? Clearly you don't understand. The page is needlessley offensive, and if anyone thought it might help in the slightest then they need some serious help. "These brave people"! ha! Brave! Bullshit. It's not like terrorists are going to go around everyone's house and kill them. No, the people in the group have nothing to fear, they're just mocking a religion because they're too stupid to handle the situation maturely.

I have already explained my views on the topic above, past your comment read, agree, disagree, do as you like as it is your opinion. If you belive i am still missing something please feel free to point it out, I welcome any argument supported by fact as I do not and can never know every fact in on a topic and that can cause opinions to change.

i guess we agree to disagree about what the page is actually trying to do.

ANd dont get me wrong i too said that the page shouldn't be taken down due to free speech, but personally i find it an abuse of that right. When people are being dicks they usually throw the right to free speech line and say whatever they goddamn please, and thats not what was meant by it. the right to free speech isnt a free pass to be a dick to people. THe reson why i said not to take it down is because it impossible to limit what one can say and have freedom of speech, but again this IS an abuse of said right

Then we have equal ideas it would seem:

If the page was for the purpose I proposed (and they did a better job showing it) you would agree with me then no?

For if the page is not for this purpose but how you see it then I must agree with you that it is a abuse of free speech.

Although the more I look at this the more it would seem that it is both, but mostly masked by the dicks who used it as an excuse to harass muslums, unfortunatly hurting its purpose.

 

[PiCroft]

But why should Muslims respect the west?

You bring up a lot of salient points, but then, I am not contesting that they have legitimate greivances. I'm not questioning why they have grievances against the West, they have many, and good reasons for them.

What I'm asking is why we should respect a culture that routinely practices female genital mutilation, execution of homosexuals and demands that a woman rape victim provide three male witnesses, else be condemned for adultery(!). A culture that treats women like property, non-believers like scum and anyone who disagrees with them like criminals.

These are all, according to the Imams, facets of Sharia Law. Can you tell me why I should respect that?

Its also worth noting that one can respect the individual without respecting the beliefs. I can respect a friend of mine who has some pretty virulent right-wing views on economic matters, it doesn't mean I can't enjoy a drink or a good game of Street Fighter with him.

I can respect Muslims perfectly fine. It doesn't mean I have to accept their religion, with its attendant problems. I don't respect Christian beliefs either, it doessn't stop me liking or agreeing to disagree with Christians.

 

[Superbeast]

You bring up a lot of salient points, but then, I am not contesting that they have legitimate greivances. I'm not questioning why they have grievances against the West, they have many, and good reasons for them.

Ah, ok - it sounded like you were saying "Why should we respect them when they don't respect us" - must have misread.

What I'm asking is why we should respect a culture that routinely practices female genital mutilation, execution of homosexuals and demands that a woman rape victim provide three male witnesses, else be condemned for adultery(!). A culture that treats women like property, non-believers like scum and anyone who disagrees with them like criminals.

Many of those are societal/cultural norms rather than from the Quran or Hadiths themselves. Therefore it is not Islam that is to blame, but rather the (usually radicalised) dialogue and ultra-conservative natures of the "political system".

The only way to change that is to show that we respect "core" Muslim beliefs - this will give strength to the moderates (realising that they have international support and are not lumped in with the ultra-conservatives and terrorists by the West) who will bring about their own social and political change, be it through revolution or otherwise.

Look at Iran - the people are becoming sick of the oppressive nature of the regime and were protesting and verging on revolt during the elections. It may not have gone ahead, but those feelings are still there in the population, and festering.

Of course a progressive, democratic state may not be too kind to the West still, given America toppled their last democracy and created the theocracy in the first place; but it would not be such a "seeding ground" for the radical Islamic groups, and thus probably reduce terrorism and international issues.

Its also worth noting that one can respect the individual without respecting the beliefs. I can respect a friend of mine who has some pretty virulent right-wing views on economic matters, it doesn't mean I can't enjoy a drink or a good game of Street Fighter with him.

I can respect Muslims perfectly fine. It doesn't mean I have to accept their religion, with its attendant problems. I don't respect Christian beliefs either, it doessn't stop me liking or agreeing to disagree with Christians.

Whilst that may be the case, and I would never dream of saying that you have to accept the religion yourself, you should accept that said religion is important *to them*. And, especially if you are trying to be friendly, try to avoid things (which you have a legal "right" to do) which may offend or be considered distasteful.

The vast majority of Muslims in the West are still, by the standards of the Quran, "devout". However they aren't stoning each other or declaring jihad on the bloke at the corner shop who over-charged them on a can of beans. They are fully integrated, and are just as peaceful and progressive as Christians - and for the record it is people like this who are *also* offended by the "draw Mohammed day", and that's why I seriously disagree with it.

Naturally there are still elements - there's a group in the UK that is calling for Sharia Law to fix all the "social ills" in the country. Unfortunately they have a right to say it, even though some of there views are so extreme I want to say "GTFO" to them. But this is true of everywhere, anywhere.

What is unfortunate is due to the ultra-conservative nature of the theocracies in the Middle East and the (in all honesty rightful) hatred of the West, these elements (that exist in all societies) find more fertile ground and gain more support, even officially sanctioned by the governing bodies of said countries. But it still doesn't mean that they are representative of the populations of those countries. This links back to what I was saying earlier, that change has to come from within - and it will, given time (see how progressive Indonesia is, "despite" being Islamic).

But intentionally harming relations between communities and nations isn't going to help this cause, if anything it would be detrimental towards it (by affirming the rantings of the extremists in the minds of the population, and therefore making social revolution and change less likely). Hence this day was a bad idea (trying to keep on-topic, sorry).

 

[PiCroft]

Who's interpretation? Oh I don't know, maybe the interpretation of my muslim landlord, and my muslim roommate and his friends?

And why should I accept the authority of these Muslims on their Scripture over the homosexual-executing, msogynistic Imams of Pakistan, Afghanistan Saudi Arabia etc? Your Muslim landlord interprets his holy book one way, the imams and their followers another. Explain why I should accept your landlord's view as the "correct" one?

My point is that, this whole thing is very much a group of people who really don't get out much. You're insulting muslims, but it's quite evident that you've never talked to one.

Does it make it easier for you to beat up your strawmen if you pretend I have qualities, or the lack of them as the case may be, and then argue from that standpoint? I know nothing about you and have made no assumptions about your background, behaviour or ethics, but you have so far called me a coward and a shut-in. In this case, I find it difficult to take your moralising about respect seriously.

You have a problem with islamic faith? Go and talk to someone islamic and learn about it. See what they have to say about all your ignorant assumptions.

Should I talk to the Pakistani Imams, or just a local western muslim who will tell me what you want me to hear? Which one should I listen to, the fervent believer who says their book is about prmoting peace and brotherhood, or the other fervent believer, who claims it teaches women's subservience to men and that gays and adulterers should die?

The middle eastern rules about women being covered from head to toe and so on and so forth have nothing to do with Islam. They're cultural things.

I'll bet thats news to the religious folks of those countries, who say it is part of theri religion. Again, are you planning on telling these people that they are getting their own religion wrong?

Many abhorrent acts are done in the name of religion and God and by and large they're all completely contrary to the written scripture.

Fun fact: the Old Testament is filled to the gunnels with stories of God instructing his chosen people to slaughter their way through other societies, and includes some rather choice bits about taking their conquered women as concubines.

The Bible is also pretty explicit about how adulterers and homosexuals should be punished.

Who is the more faithful believer: the one who believes, but cherry-picks so the worst parts are ignored, or the one who believes the whole thing, start to finish, including the gory bits?

Yes, and so is the "I'm holier than though attitude".
Again, don't confuse societal laws with religious laws. People pervade religion for their own agenda all the time. See some of the earlier catholic popes for an example. Acting like an "infidel" isn't going to get people to stop calling you "infidels".

Okay so, you apparently are confident enough to state that the horrific societal bigotries of Islamic states are "nothing to do with religion", and yet....

Now whether the depiction of mohammad is a koran law. Or a societal law, I don't know. As I'm not familiar with it.

Which is it? Can you categorically state that the laws such as stoning of adulterers, homosexuals and the rape witness law have no basis in the Koran? Can you back that up? Moreover, would you put your knowledge of the rules of the Koran above the religious leaders of Pakistan?

In Northern Ireland the catholics and protestants were killing and beating up one another for years. Maybe they still are. I don't know. You want to go into a hotbed like that and make fun of one or the other? Good luck. How is that any different from the current situation?

Last I checked, the catholics and protestants weren't rioting in the streets because another country turned a crucifix upside-down.

So what's your grand plan? Shit all over islam until they become desensitized to it too? Hell the west is losing touch with religion, why should the east still have that in their lives? Let's beat it out of them until they lose their own beliefs and believe only in material possessions and ipods like the western world? I think I'd rather spare them that world.

Yes, being against the worst excesses of religiious Islamist extremism is exactly the same as wanting them to become frappucino-quaffing, ipod shuffling urbanite consumers.

Do you think before you post?

There's nothing meaningful or productive about it either. You think making fun of islam is going to help muslim women living in oppressed societies? You want to change those societies, do something meaningful. Because making fun of islam is going to do dick all. And don't mistake societal oppression for religious oppression.

Mockery, criticism and satire as important weapons against tyranny. Trying to mollycoddle extremists because we might hurt their precious, gay-stoning feelings will not work.

If Western Muslims can keep their faith in the face of mockery, more power to them. Liberal religious believers often have to put up with mockery, they aren't the problem and they aren't the intended target of such ire. If you are unable to seperate criticism of a subset of Muslims, how can you understand nuances like criticising God Hates Fags? If I started photoshopping Fred Phelps into gaybars, would you be here, moaning that I'm disrespecting him? Why?

 

[PiCroft]

This has actually given me something to think about. I'll read this over a few more times and get back to you.

 

[IHateDaManSkirt]

No, that's damn hypocritical

If someone in India wants to view the page, Facebook shouldn't tell them they can't

I laughed at this. If my mother were to here about this, she would rant about how Muslims invaded us, separated themselves from us and now Facebook is censoring things specifically for them. Odd how they did it in India, but not Pakistan, where the problem lies. Most people in India can just go to the Computer store and learn about proxies easily enough.

As one of those 115,000 fans who actually drew a picture of Mohammed, I say bring it on Pakistan and you other bitchy muslims. Here in the western world, and America especially, we have Freedom of Speach and Expression. Now, unless my expression causes you PHYSICAL HARM, you can ***** all you want but I don't have to do shit to accomodate you. Go ahead and threaten death, I support the rights of any person to say what they want to whomever they want. However, if you act on it, as you crazy extremist muslims tend to do, well then you are commiting an actual crime against an actual person, not a mythic figure that can take care of himself. And that is a big no no, which means you are going to burn in hell, if it actually exists.

Antagonizing ghosts, eh? You do know extremists aren't reading your post, right? From what I see you are Christian or agnostic. You seem to make something of a logical progression( even if you are {if I were to be kind} somewhat racist) and I do agree with you. But, your last 2 sentences are a bit...uhhh...extremist-like. Yes, that's right, you are somewhat of an extremist. You drew a picture of a religious figure, not for any reason other than to antagonize members of a COMPLETELY SANE AND RESPECTABLE religion. You did not draw it to support the rights of people. We all know that.(Elsewise, you are an ignoramus{I've wanted to say that forever.}, my friend.)
No offense to you, just need to rant sometimes.

I don't believe in hating or categorizing anyone for their religion, I don't believe in "bring it on" speeches either like that guy you quoted did.

I simply believe that everybody should be allowed to be exposed to what they CHOOSE to be exposed to.

That said, I didn't draw a picture myself, or even visit the page in question

I must agree with you on your first three statements. Many people lead lives only exposing themselves to that which they wish to expose themselves to. It is completely normal and an efficient way to block out the...uhh..."things that make you lose faith in humanity".

I didn't draw the picture or visit the page either, though I do not go on Facebook. Frankly, I had no idea it existed until it was featured here. I don't think I would care to go there if I had heard about it on facebook either.
Also, I enjoyed your article on the debate of the removal of the Other OS option on the PS3.

 

[PiCroft]

Many of those are societal/cultural norms rather than from the Quran or Hadiths themselves. Therefore it is not Islam that is to blame, but rather the (usually radicalised) dialogue and ultra-conservative natures of the "political system".

This is the part I have the most trouble with; I have no real knowledge of the Koran (or any other holy book really, besides a cursory reading of them) so my only means of understanding what a religion teaches is what their followers say it teaches. On the one hand, I have the liberal practitioners who basically boil the belifs down to the idea of "Jesus loves me and loves you too" kind of deal. On the other, I have Fred Phelps, Christian Voice and such like who use the same holy book, same teachings to deliver messages that are rather unpleasant and bigoted.

From my standpoint, I have no real reason to say to either "you are not a true X" because both use the same materials to arrive at their respective views.

The rest of your post gave me pause for thought though, I think I might have overstated my position.

 

[GLo Jones]

Wow, this was a while ago, and I knew it would have lasting repercussions, but I never imagined the effect it'd have on my beloved Escapist. Personally, freedom of speech is very important, but we can't really be trusted to have complete freedom to express ourselves in this manner. In a world with so many different cultures and beliefs, freedom of speech is very damaging to inter-cultural relations. It's the freedom/protection argument all over again.

Regardless, I still drew him in paint (a stickman with an arrow to him labelled 'Mohammed', and bushy hair and a beard). I just haven't shown anyone.

 

[Superbeast]

This is the part I have the most trouble with; I have no real knowledge of the Koran (or any other holy book really, besides a cursory reading of them) so my only means of understanding what a religion teaches is what their followers say it teaches. On the one hand, I have the liberal practitioners who basically boil the belifs down to the idea of "Jesus loves me and loves you too" kind of deal. On the other, I have Fred Phelps, Christian Voice and such like who use the same holy book, same teachings to deliver messages that are rather unpleasant and bigoted.

Yeah, it can be one hell of a minefield.

What you may be interested to know, is that Fatwa's have been issued against the Jihad's against the West - so not even Middle Eastern clerics from conservative nations agree with each other.

From my own studies of the Quran, which are not very extensive I will admit, killing and suicide are just as abhorred as they are in Christianity, and therefore I see the "moderate" Muslims, those who do not agree with the terrorist activities and those on the verge of rebellion in Iran, as being the "true-er" followers. But I could be equally mistaken of course, though my logic has led me to believe that I am not.

From my standpoint, I have no real reason to say to either "you are not a true X" because both use the same materials to arrive at their respective views.

It's all in the interpretation anyway. Whichever group you accused of "not being true X" would be able to prove it via scripture, and those who you say "are true X" proven via scripture will have the other group claiming they are not. It's pretty much pointless, but it does have some point in debates to show that certain abhorrent acts (in this case terrorism) are not actually representative of the religion.

Hence why I think it is generally futile for the West, as a whole, to try to sort out the Middle East and "modernise" it - the factions have to decide which way they want to go, and then the people have to decide whether to be happy with the governing body or not. It will be interesting to see how the situation pans out in Iran over the next decade or two - I really hope it gets on the way to becoming a progressive nation, just to show that interventionism isn't needed to overthrow the shackles of extremism.

The rest of your post gave me pause for thought though, I think I might have overstated my position.

I hope you don't mind me saying this, but I'm honestly surprised, and pleased. In the other threads I seem to keep going round in circles arguing the same points with people who join in the conversations, or people who are so deep-seated in their beliefs that West = right & modern, East = backwards & terrorist that it makes no difference arguing.

Glad I've actually been able to be helpful