Parents Suing Apple Over In-Game Purchasing

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Apr 5, 2008
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Bloodstain said:
You mean 'few clicks' as in 'entering several passwords, confirming your identity and enabling the option to spend money ingame'?
And since the game outright warns you that it is actual real life money being spent there, it doesn't seem that 'shady' to me.
It is almost as shady and underhanded as you can get short of robbing someone. These tactics are used by casinos around the world, with Las Vegas as a perfect example of how it's done. People have no sense of time, they spend chips not cash so there's a disconnect from their wallets. They get free drinks (incentives to continue) and with the addictive nature of the game(s) and the ease with which one can just spend some more money to continue, people spend money as if it didn't matter or exist just to get the buzz of playing and/or winning.

When I made my first purchase with Play.com or Steam, two online retailers that store your card details and make it easy to buys things with very few clicks, I thought, and still do that it's quite evil how easy and quick it is. Click mouse, get stuff, don't see any cash change hands or worry about if I can afford it. People go bankrupt from poorly managing money. There are significantly and observably more (by an order of magnitude) bookies, pawn brokers and betting shops in poor areas than in more affluent ones. This is *not* a coincidence.

Apple are just as bad in this regard. They make more money from the App Store than from every other product and service they offer combined. iTunes and the App Store also work like this. Enter card details, click click buy stuff. No money changes hands. Zynga and facebook games do the same and the founder of Zynga himself went on record saying just what kind of practices he employed at the start.

These business practices are shady and evil and I honestly believe should be illegal. They are designed in every possible way to con, entice, cajole and tempt people to carry on clicking, pushing buttons and seeing sparkling lights at the cost of real money they never see. By getting children to do it it's significantly worse. I hope the judge in this case sees sense and sets a precedent. He won't though. Corporate tax dollars are the single most important thing in the USA.
 

IWCAS

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How is that Apple's fault?

Maybe their kid is just too irresponsible to handle a credit card number? My little brother has an iPod touch and he's been in trouble a few times already because money goes missing, and it ends up in to form of a stupid waste of money app. By "money missing" I don't mean fucking $1400. That's outrageous.

Watch your fucking kids.
 

Epic Fail 1977

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Sorry but if you give your child an iDevice that's connected straight to your credit card and tell them the password they need to spend money on it, then any spend that follows is entirely your own fault.

captcha: baby blues
No way that's a coincidence!
 

Dr Jones

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Jun 23, 2010
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KeyMaster45 said:
Frankly I don't see how this is Apple's responsibility, the devs of the apps should be the ones they're going after for shady microtransactions.
Apple has always been super strict about the app-store. They approve every app that comes in, I think that is what the parents are using as their argument.
 

rapidoud

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newwiseman said:
Apple needs to have an in-app purchase toggle in the general setting of the iOS not in the apps themselves.

As much as I hate the monetization at work in these games it is where the majority of those developers income comes from, for better or worse, and outlawing the practice all together is not the answer.

The real problem is that parents are so quick to hand off the virtual baby sitter, stay out of my hair, devices that they don't even bother to familiarize themselves with the actions they need to take to defend their wallets and their children from influences they feel are questionable. But when most parents now days are as equally immature as their entitled brood; what more can we expect. The whole culture is trained to blame someone else before excepting any responsibility. That was the whole point of the South Park movie.

To quote Bender, "Parents haven't you ever tried just sitting down with your kids, and hitting them?"

But, what do I know, I'm just a technology support specialist, in a predominantly Apple environment, who has worked eight hours a day in public middle schools for 4 years... Someone help me.
You know some parents actually use tablet PCs as learning tools for their ASD children?

Don't just assume it's all snot-nosed brats, there are some legitametly good parents stung by this, and why i think microtransaction games are such awful ideas.
 

Something Amyss

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DVS BSTrD said:
So yes parents are apparently fine with their money being thrown away as long as their selfish little groin spawn aren't the ones doing it.
They'd probably get more for thosein-app purchases.

gigastar said:
On the one hand, overreacting parents.

On the other hand, manipulative microtransactions.

Im not sure which side i loathe more...
I'm personally hoping the judge offers up some humiliating punishment for both.
 

Antari

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Nov 4, 2009
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Well if they can actually prove these games have actual addictive qualities they might have a lawsuit. I've been fairly concerned about alot of these social games having subliminal messaging in them. Because I have seen people addicted to them to the point of it being a chemical addiction. As for it being all the parents fault. I don't quite know. Large corporations exploit, its what they do.
 

Irick

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Revolutionaryloser said:
I'm surprised how many people show absolutely no sympathy for the parents. I don't think it's that bizarre that parents aren't watching their children while they play videogames. If anything, I think it's pretty stupid for parents to want to control their children all the time, especially when they are on the couch, out of harm's way.

Also, I don't know the specifics of each case, but last time I checked my phone doesn't ask for a password when it urges me to buy shit I don't want.
I don't think it is bizarre either, but i'm pretty jaded as to my views on the state of modern parenting. Ideally gaming would be used as a parenting tool rather then what i see it being used today: e.g. "we're busy, here, play with this". Leaving your kid unsupervised with anything that you as a parent are not familiar with is bad parenting. Not uncommon, mind you, but bad.

The consequences of this particular symptom of negligent parenting just tend to be a bit more immediately visceral then the long term issues that arise with the same cause. This should serve more as a wake up call rather then a rally against the evil entertainment corporation doing what they do.
 

MetalMagpie

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gigastar said:
On the one hand, overreacting parents.

On the other hand, manipulative microtransactions.

Im not sure which side i loathe more...
It's a tough one, no mistake.

Personally, I think the whole manipulative-micro-transactions scene does sometimes stop just short of actual criminal fraud. However, so long as it does stop short of that line, then it's not really the job of law-makers to prevent asshole business strategies.

But a self-regulating industry run by responsible individuals would be nice. We can hope for that, right? Right?!
 

MetalMagpie

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Revolutionaryloser said:
I'm surprised how many people show absolutely no sympathy for the parents. I don't think it's that bizarre that parents aren't watching their children while they play videogames. If anything, I think it's pretty stupid for parents to want to control their children all the time, especially when they are on the couch, out of harm's way.

Also, I don't know the specifics of each case, but last time I checked my phone doesn't ask for a password when it urges me to buy shit I don't want.
I think the argument here is that Apple say they have made changes so that parents can prevent their children from buying content. (Passwords, turning off in-game purchasing, etc.) Assuming that is the case (and I'm not saying it's impossible Apple are lying) then the parents have all the tools they need to leave their children unsupervised playing games, as long as they are careful to set them up.

I remember a similar fuss when a young child managed to buy a car on ebay because his dad left the computer on, with ebay open in a browser and logged in. The parents tried to blame ebay, but really it's no different to your child breaking a priceless Ming vase because you left it within their reach.
 

CrazyGirl17

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Couldn't they just sue the people making the game? Personally, I'm suspicious of internet games that rely on real-world money to buy things...
 

Maimer961

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Pro tip: Buy a DS, stop complaining and do alittle research first. If I ever gave my kid something expensive, I'd make damn sure it didn't give them access to my bank account. And don't let them use your username on anything...period
 

MetalMagpie

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Revolutionaryloser said:
MetalMagpie said:
Revolutionaryloser said:
I'm surprised how many people show absolutely no sympathy for the parents. I don't think it's that bizarre that parents aren't watching their children while they play videogames. If anything, I think it's pretty stupid for parents to want to control their children all the time, especially when they are on the couch, out of harm's way.

Also, I don't know the specifics of each case, but last time I checked my phone doesn't ask for a password when it urges me to buy shit I don't want.
I think the argument here is that Apple say they have made changes so that parents can prevent their children from buying content. (Passwords, turning off in-game purchasing, etc.) Assuming that is the case (and I'm not saying it's impossible Apple are lying) then the parents have all the tools they need to leave their children unsupervised playing games, as long as they are careful to set them up.

I remember a similar fuss when a young child managed to buy a car on ebay because his dad left the computer on, with ebay open in a browser and logged in. The parents tried to blame ebay, but really it's no different to your child breaking a priceless Ming vase because you left it within their reach.
For the record, I'm pretty sure it's still easy as piss to buy anything in the app store. Also, am I the only one that finds the wording "leave their children unsupervised playing games" to be sort of jarring? I mean, if you can't leave your kids unsupervised while playing, when can you?
I wouldn't know (don't have an iphone) but I'm happy to take your word that Apple haven't exactly been thorough.

Sorry if my phrasing came across as jarring. I only meant what it literally says! My parents left me playing unsupervised all the time when I was little. Video games shouldn't be any different. Which is exactly why parental controls are so important.

My parents were happy to leave me unsupervised watching the cable TV because they knew I couldn't buy films (or worse, porn) without knowing the PIN (which they refused to tell me until I reached my mid teens).
 

Irick

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Revolutionaryloser said:
But where does this "good parenting" end? Can we let our kids play in the park without fearing they might be raped? Can we let them stay over at a friend's house? Can they climb up a tree? Can they use a swing unsupervised?

I understand there are negligent parents but I don't want to bring up kids that are incapable of doing anything without someone's certified approval. And seriously, I know my videogames, but some of the things you might find in the Apple app store nobody would see coming.

And maybe it is pointless to sue but I still think someone has to take action to put a stop to this. These games should come with disclaimers and point out that they are not appropiate for kids.
I think I can answer this one fairly concisely actually. You no longer need to supervise your child when your child has developed enough in a facet of maturity so that you may trust them to act responsibly when given the freedom to do so. Until then, it is your job as a parent to look after them and guide them down the path to eventual autonomy.

Should parents smother their kids to the point that they no longer get the ability to strike out on their own? No. Should kids be trusted with the ability to strike out on their own when they are forming abstractions for previously concrete concepts? No.

According to Piaget, kids are not formally capable of being entirely aware as to the affects of their actions outside themselves until approximately the age of seven. As a rule of thumb, i would say wait until then to introduce kids to any sort of real responsibility, and even then keeping an eye on how they develop would be wise.

But this is beside the point. My main argument is: It is not the responsibility of Apple to parent your kids. There is no social obligation implicit or otherwise for Apple to determine what is appropriate or inappropriate for your kid. You, as a parent, can decide to trust or distrust organizations (church, ESRB, etc.) to make those sort of judgments for you but it is not part of your rights to force them to do so and repremend them legally for failing to meet your standards or act as a proxy for your will.

Beside that fundamental point, it is not as if Apple has not taken reasonable steps to address the issue. The iPhone/iPad/iPod is not primarily a children's toy. It is not reasonable to expect them to wrap the thing in foam in every aspect just because you choose to use it as such.

Personally, i find the 15 minute window a very convenient feature. I pop into the app store, buy a new game and notice that i have updates. Instead of having to re-establish my identity to the App store, i just continue with the updates. Is this feature implicitly designed to make buying things easier? Yes. Why? Because we (consumers) want it to be easy to buy things. As it stands i feel we have given enough ground to the demands of parents to make it harder for kids to do things without their oversight at the sacrifice of the convenience of the general user, and i feel slighted in the fact that i am expected to put up with increasingly less convenience to compensate for the inattentiveness of those who hand their devices off to their kids without any/much thought as to the possible consequences.

But those are just my thoughts on the subject.
 

Sofus

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If they were so damn worried about their kids spendings then why didn't they just take away the damn phone in the first place.

It is not Apples problem that the kid is incapable of evaluating the situation at hand. If the kid is old enough to need a phone then he/she is already old enough to earn his/her own savings by having a weekend job.


Let me guess, these moronic parents are from USA or somesuch right? back here in Denmark shit like that wouldn't fly anywhere.
 

newwiseman

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rapidoud said:
newwiseman said:
Apple needs to have an in-app purchase toggle in the general setting of the iOS not in the apps themselves.

As much as I hate the monetization at work in these games it is where the majority of those developers income comes from, for better or worse, and outlawing the practice all together is not the answer.

The real problem is that parents are so quick to hand off the virtual baby sitter, stay out of my hair, devices that they don't even bother to familiarize themselves with the actions they need to take to defend their wallets and their children from influences they feel are questionable. But when most parents now days are as equally immature as their entitled brood; what more can we expect. The whole culture is trained to blame someone else before excepting any responsibility. That was the whole point of the South Park movie.

To quote Bender, "Parents haven't you ever tried just sitting down with your kids, and hitting them?"

But, what do I know, I'm just a technology support specialist, in a predominantly Apple environment, who has worked eight hours a day in public middle schools for 4 years... Someone help me.
You know some parents actually use tablet PCs as learning tools for their ASD children?

Don't just assume it's all snot-nosed brats, there are some legitametly good parents stung by this, and why i think microtransaction games are such awful ideas.
And I hope you know that we use them in an education setting and that they can be set up using multiple iTunes accounts very easily so that kids don't have direct access to their parents credit cards. Ignorance is no excuse.
 

Zenn3k

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DVS BSTrD said:
So yes parents are apparently fine with their money being thrown away as long as their selfish little groin spawn aren't the ones doing it.
Groin spawn! Genius!