Piracy, Not Consoles, Killed the PC Exclusive

LordLundar

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Let's look at what MR. Chalk wrote down objectively:

He wrote that Titan Quest was "marred by pre-release piracy". Now this game was released before Steam or digital distribution was even considered, let alone in frequent use, so the only way it could have been afflicted by pre-release piracy was if it got out before release physically. That indicates a problem in security on the publisher's side, aka Mr. Frazier was responsible for it.

He also wrote "an undocumented security check that dumped players out of illegal copies of the game." This is DRM, despite Mr. Chalk's claim to the contrary. Creative, but not well known. Considering that this was not explained (as was done with Batman: Arkham Asylum, which used the same technique), it led to the understanding that this was a fault in the game as opposed to intentionally programmed inside. Failure to communicate (a responsibility of the company) led to this misunderstanding, not the "ebil pirates".

"That led to some very negative word-of-mouth about its buggy, unfinished state prior to launch, which turned out to be inaccurate but still hampered sales and contributed to the studio's demise." A number of professional reviewers, even those who gave overwhelming positive scores, also cited problems with the game design. Requirements higher than expected or advertised, choppy gameplay even at lower settings, and problem points not attributed to the "intentional illegal copy crash" all pop up to varying degrees. This is a problem in game design, which is the responsibility of the company (additionally from personal experience, every demo display I had witnessed for the game showed considerable levels of graphical problems despite being run on systems that met the recommended specs).

To put simply, the problems that resulted in the shutdown of Mr. Frazier's company was a lack of responsibility on Mr. Frazier's employees and himself in the form of security, quality control, and Public Relations. Instead of acknowledging those problems, he sees fit to blame others, including potential customers for his lack of responsibility.

It's not the first time I have witnessed such a claim. Epic Games made similar claims on Unreal Tournament 3 despite issues of alienating PC users being a more accurate cause and Crytek in the issue of Crysis despite a more accurate summation of their game requiring bleeding edge systems to run the game well and a response from being essentially "tough luck" when confronted with this evidence.

Poor management, not piracy is what killed Mr. Frazier's company.
 

Aeonknight

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Faerillis said:
Aeonknight said:
Never heard of beta testing I assume? That's about the closest you're going to get with demo's nowadays. And they're not uncommon either.
Ok not that I disagree with the idea that "I should've been allowed a demo" is a paper thin excuse for piracy ? which when it comes to Video Games is without a doubt an incredibly douchy thing to do, BUT Betas are not Demos, Video Games should have Demos, Beta Tests being as close as people get to demos for video games is in NO WAY acceptable. As far as the video game community goes there are more or less two groups "The Takers," who see what they want and take it and "The Takers" who see what they want but don't want to get lumped in with the pirates and bend over and take it.
We must have different definitions of "bending over and taking it" then, because I've never pirated anything, nor have I been completely screwed over by any DRM a company has put out. Goes back to my "user error" point when people have to spend 4 hours "fixing" a game... But I digress.

I won't say that beta's and demo's are one and the same. But technically... a beta is capable of fulfilling a demo's purpose while giving the developer an opportunity to be lazy bastards and not have to focus on QA as much. Just from the beta's I've seen, no game has been completely reworked from the ground up in the short time between beta test and official release.

Sure you're going to deal with glitches and such in beta, but for the most part you're also going to get a good impression on how the game plays. Example: gears of war 3. the gameplay of both the beta and release is pretty much identical, with maybe a few changes in gun specs for balancing purposes. There's nothing I would've seen in an official demo that I wouldn't have seen in a beta test.

Another example: Final Fantasy XIV. Yes, that game. It had a beta available, and plenty of people tested it. The same testers also said that the game had a lot of gameplay issues and was nearly unplayable in it's current state. Square Enix released the game anyway, and what did we get? A game with a lot of gameplay issues that was nearly unplayable.


It may just be developer laziness that has skewed the line between beta and demo, but for all intents and purposes they may as well be the same thing.
 

Faerillis

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Aeonknight said:
ThunderCavalier said:
Message to all bitching developers and publishers:

Stop fucking us over with DRM and people'll stop pirating your games.
Message to all bitching gamers:

Stop taking our shit without paying for it and we'll stop putting in DRM.


I swear people forget this DRM problem goes both ways.
I swear people forget that the only people who complain about DRM are the people who actually play their legitimate copies of the game. Pirates have to get rid of DRM to make their games work... which takes them a week for the best DRM. This certainly doesn't seem like it's a point for either side... except that said DRM is behind the VAST majority of gaming bugs on the PC, so not only are the developers screwing over their legitimate consumers with DRM but they are also selling a lower quality product than what is offered free.
Now most PC gamers absolutely will take the poorer quality, DRM-ridden copies because it's the right thing to do.

Aeonknight said:
Faerillis said:
Aeonknight said:
Never heard of beta testing I assume? That's about the closest you're going to get with demo's nowadays. And they're not uncommon either.
Ok not that I disagree with the idea that "I should've been allowed a demo" is a paper thin excuse for piracy ? which when it comes to Video Games is without a doubt an incredibly douchy thing to do, BUT Betas are not Demos, Video Games should have Demos, Beta Tests being as close as people get to demos for video games is in NO WAY acceptable. As far as the video game community goes there are more or less two groups "The Takers," who see what they want and take it and "The Takers" who see what they want but don't want to get lumped in with the pirates and bend over and take it.
We must have different definitions of "bending over and taking it" then, because I've never pirated anything, nor have I been completely screwed over by any DRM a company has put out. Goes back to my "user error" point when people have to spend 4 hours "fixing" a game... But I digress.

I won't say that beta's and demo's are one and the same. But technically... a beta is capable of fulfilling a demo's purpose while giving the developer an opportunity to be lazy bastards and not have to focus on QA as much. Just from the beta's I've seen, no game has been completely reworked from the ground up in the short time between beta test and official release.

Sure you're going to deal with glitches and such in beta, but for the most part you're also going to get a good impression on how the game plays. Example: gears of war 3. the gameplay of both the beta and release is pretty much identical, with maybe a few changes in gun specs for balancing purposes. There's nothing I would've seen in an official demo that I wouldn't have seen in a beta test.

Another example: Final Fantasy XIV. Yes, that game. It had a beta available, and plenty of people tested it. The same testers also said that the game had a lot of gameplay issues and was nearly unplayable in it's current state. Square Enix released the game anyway, and what did we get? A game with a lot of gameplay issues that was nearly unplayable.


It may just be developer laziness that has skewed the line between beta and demo, but for all intents and purposes they may as well be the same thing.
Really? A demo is designed to showcase a game's mechanics so that potential customers have the opportunity to evaluate their purchases beforehand. A beta has the gamer assume the role of tester and offer a free service to the developer, with duties including things like writing reports on incidents for the sake of the developer (and as a security guard that's already my goddamn job). They are by no means the same thing. Also a Beta has a legitimate reason to pull their program after a time, demos do not. As someone who constantly deals in equivalency for all intents and purposes, believe me this matter comes nowhere near meeting any reasonable threshold for that.

Watch Extra Credits and The Jimquisition for some good summaries of the problems with the "boogeymanification" of Piracy in the game industry.
 

Sandytimeman

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LiquidSolstice said:
Sandytimeman said:
Lol, as if I needed another reason to not buy their game. Yeah I agree Starcraft 2 TOTALLY flopped because of all the piracy...Same with Half-Life 2 TOTALLY BOMBED /sarcasm

Does anything else really need to be said, Blizzard and Valve are two of the biggest most successful companies out there, and they are mostly PC developers. These guys are just trying to mask lazy design and try and stop piracy.

But guess what I'm not buying or pirating this game, in fact, shit if your game isn't worth my money, it sure as hell isn't worth my time.
Blizzard and Valve; the golden temple for PC gamers to go and hide in while commenting on industry news articles.

Guess what? Bliazzard has such a MASSIVE following that piracy doesn't affect it. It has Warcraft, Starcraft, Diablo, and let's not forget, WoW.

Valve is the laziest game dev on the planet. Do you know what the Valve formula is?

1. Take Half-Life 1,2.
2. Change textures.
3. Add witty dialogue
4. Bake in multiplayer
5. Ask people for more money for basically some modification of one of the Half-Life games.
6. Charge $15-$20 so that people don't notice.
7. Revel in your ragingly borderline fascist fanbase's reaction to a "new" game.
8. Add in something retarded and useless like Hat Trading to further prevent people from noticing that they're just playing HL.
And that so much better then what? Fucking EA that charges 60 dollars for a yearly roster swap of madden? Oh I see your right that SOOOOOOOO much better. The thing is that Piracy is a service problem not a DRM problem.

The thing is, back like 8-9 years ago when Kaaza and all those P2P clients were popular I downloaded music like crazy. But guess what now I buy everything through Amazon mp3 downloads or Itunes. Was it because that the music industry started making it harder to rip CDs? or started suing single mothers of three because their 12 year old downloaded an album? or because they started taking down a few of those sharing sites? no. It's because they came up with a system that gave me all my music for cheap, at demand, with all the info and album covers already in the mp3 info and NO viruses. It was just easier to download the song I want from the easier to use services.

Back in the day...did I pirate PC games? Yeah, I did starcraft loads of times, cuz I kept losing the keys to the legit copies I bought. But now, they have an easy system where I just register my game and I have access to it forever through their Battle.net service.

Or when I want to try out a game I know I can just click and buy for cheap on steam. I no longer pirate games, and any game that makes me go out of my way to jump through DRM loops like Ubisoft or EA I just don't buy their games straight up.

oh also lets look at Minecraft, PC game pirated to hell and back and yet Mojang is going strong has grown it staff and shed it's "indie" title label. Well look at that, yet another company I called out for you.

Oh and here is a fun fact PIRACY HAPPENS ON CONSOLES TOO.
 

sonofliber

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funny thing the Kingdoms Of Amalur is already out for the xbox (if you know what i mean wink wink), yet not for pc
 

ph0b0s123

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katsabas said:
I am not a PC gamer and I am still calling bullshit on this. That would be valid if every exclusive released on PC is above average and that is SO. NOT. TRUE.

Wanna know a PC exclusive from 2005 ?



Wanna know a console exclusive from 2005 ?



So, yeah. Wrong.

And further back. In 1997, iD software developped Hexen II which of course sucked. Saturn and Playstation got Symphony Of The Night. Piracy didn't kill the PC exclusive. Rather the unfathomable number of shitty exclusives that you have to dig through to find some really good games.
Well that is the most batsh!t argument I have ever heard. Cause every consoles exclusive is above average. I can play the same game too.

Console exclusive from 2005


PC exclusive from same year


Anyone can go on to a game review site and look for the worst game a platform had in a year and put a picture of it next to a good game from another platform. Now if you had done some analysis with some numbers. Like how many PC unique games there where in a year and how may got good reviews vs the number of exclusive games a console had and the number of good reviews they got. Then we would have something to talk about.

Oh, and an 'exclusive' means a game just on one platform i.e one console, so your Symphony Of The Night example does not work.

At the times you quoted the PC was no better and no worse than individual consoles for exclusive quality. Even if the argument was true only a retard cannot work out what is a good game vs a bunch of bad ones. Review sites are not a new phenomenon and in my 20+ years of PC gaming I have never had a problem working this out. So your argument is dumb backed up by pathetic evidence.
 

Mechanix

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I think a lot of you are missing the point. What he is saying is, it's a stupid idea to make a game PC exclusive these days. There is a much smaller consumer base than consoles, and it also has the highest concentration of pirates. It would be idiotic to make Kingdoms of Amaleur PC only, they would lose out on a good 1 or 2 million sales for sure.
 

Zefar

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ThunderCavalier said:
Message to all bitching developers and publishers:

Stop fucking us over with DRM and people'll stop pirating your games.
As if that has EVER changed pirates.

Want some proof?

Humble indie bundle.
ALL OF THEM.

Pirated every single time. They could buy them for anything but they don't. They can get the none DRM version too for just a penny. Do they pay that? Nope.

Pirates are going to pirate no matter what. Games without DRM just gets pirated more as it's easier. Some people see cracks as a possible source of keyloggers among other things so they don't bother with those.

But to think that no DRM will make people buy it more is just not true.

For Titan Quest it's kinda sad that they went bankrupt. Their DRM was supposed to harm the pirates and it did. They got a buggy version of the game that had some pre programmed crashes and such. But then these ungrateful pirates go on an badmouth about the game. They also demand help from the developers as well.

These people have no moral at all and just want everything for free.

DRM for me hasn't been an issue for the past 5 years. So I'm just fine with DRM.
 

katsabas

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ph0b0s123 said:
Anyone can go on to a game review site and look for the worst game a platform had in a year and put a picture of it next to a good game from another platform. Now if you had done some analysis with some numbers. Like how many PC unique games there where in a year and how may got good reviews vs the number of exclusive games a console had and the number of good reviews they got. Then we would have something to talk about.

Oh, and an 'exclusive' means a game just on one platform i.e one console, so your Symphony Of The Night example does not work.

At the times you quoted the PC was no better and no worse than individual consoles for exclusive quality. Even if the argument was true only a retard cannot work out what is a good game vs a bunch of bad ones. Review sites are not a new phenomenon and in my 20+ years of PC gaming I have never had a problem working this out. So your argument is dumb backed up by pathetic evidence.
I think you missed the point of the examples. What I said was that the statement would be true if every PC exclusive was above average. Since that isn't true, I laid 2 examples to prove my point. It would be 'pathetic' if in total, the quality of PC exclusives surpasses that of the console ones. A question which has no right answer, since we are both on different systems.

Ιf your trust in numbers is so great and think that consumers are not retards, justify the fact that Duke Nukem Forever sold about 400000 copies (a success, according to NPD). Or that things like Persona, Psychonauts and Eternal Darkness got snubbed.

Console exclusives have the advantage of being few and far in between, cause that makes it easier to seperate the ones that are really worth your while.

Since I am not a PC gamer, forgive me if I gave the finger at your altar and stuff but if YOU never had a problem being able to seperate the good stuff from the bad and make a successful and worthwhile purchase every time without seeking additional advice from web-sites, then well-done. You are either better than me or in a easier financial position.

By your sayings, I must gather that PCs are better to have an exclusive on and that that is a fact ? I wouldn't play platformers on PC. Or racing games. Or sports games. The amount of above average exclusives on consoles I have owned has always been much better than on PC. It comes down to personal taste. Like God Of War to Neverwinter Nights.

About SOTN, did it grace the PC ? No. There you go then.
 

Treblaine

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SurfinTaxt said:
Treblaine said:
SurfinTaxt said:
Treblaine said:
SurfinTaxt said:
Treblaine said:
"needlessly acute"

What? Needlessly "short terms severe medical symptoms"?!?!?
acute [əˈkjuːt]
adj
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/acute
2. sensitive to details; keen
In english, words can have more than one meaning.
Okay, that still makes no sense as I was not being any more sensitive to details than you were. You were excluding MMOs and Strategy games, I did the same to console.
Well it makes sense if you go back and actually READ what I said. I said the discussion was getting needlessy acute after just referencing mice and keyboards for ps3 and kinect for pc. Bogged down in the minutia. Try reading before responding
OK, if you're going to throw in the towel because the concept of different game controls is too much for you to handle then fine, but don't act like you've proven anything by demanding extremely simple logic of comparison.
If thats the way you wanna look at it, have at it hoss. Your strategy of insulting me for actually knowing what the word acute means and then instead of apologizing, going into turtle mode with your defensiveness over how little you actually know has succeeded in turning me off to further discussion. Go buy another RAM for your overpriced dehumidifier
Don't insult me by saying I insulted you. I don't think much discussion value has been lost, you repeatedly post declarations and assumptions based on, frankly, ignorance of the video game industry, PC gaming in particular. And you are not open at all to being told when you are wrong.

"Go buy another RAM for your overpriced dehumidifier"

most nonsensical thing I've heard all week. Is this supposed to be in insult? A pithy remark? Is where I live unacceptably damp, and why would such a device need system memory upgrade? What... I don't even...
 

Pyro Paul

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funny thing.
Iron Lore Entertainment, The studio that made Titans Quest, went bellied up because of DRM.

Titans Quest had peices of the DRM which caused the game to be buggy and glitchy to the point of it being unplayable. This was introduced to punish any of those that did not acctually pay for the game. However, it was the Pirates that wrote a large degree of the initial reviews for the game because they got it before it was released. And they openly bashed it because it was an Unplayable, glitchy, and buggy game bringing into question Iron Lore Entertainment's capabilities as a studio.

Even though the game, and subsquent releases they made where well produced and largely successful fun games, the studios reputation and sales took such a hit that it was difficult for them to ever recover and they eventually closed their doors forever.
 

samsonguy920

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So....what's Kingdoms of Amalur, again? Never heard of it.
(on Titan Quest) ...but its launch was marred by pre-release piracy, specifically an undocumented security check that dumped players out of illegal copies of the game.
So this guy wants to blame piracy when it was more because of incompetence on the part of either his development team or the publisher?
This is one thing that makes me so sick of when people cry foul on piracy ruining their profit margins, when maybe 8 times out of 10 it is due to their own screw-up. Someone took a laptop with code home against the rules, it gets stolen, now the code is in the net. Someone in the offices took a Beta disc and sold it, now the Beta is in the net. Someone put the game in a networked computer against the rules, now the game is in the net being pirated.
Seriously, if you want to continue calling Piracy stealing, then do something about your effing security. You don't see banks leaving satchels of money sitting in the lobby. Quit blaming pirates for your own stupidity.
 

Atmos Duality

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Mechanix said:
I think a lot of you are missing the point. What he is saying is, it's a stupid idea to make a game PC exclusive these days. There is a much smaller consumer base than consoles, and it also has the highest concentration of pirates. It would be idiotic to make Kingdoms of Amaleur PC only, they would lose out on a good 1 or 2 million sales for sure.
Piracy, I'll agree with. But a much smaller consumer base?
Absolute nonsense. Personal Computers are varied in style, but VAST in number; think of the market in a global scale, not just regional.

And since consoles have dragged AAA gaming down to their technical level (seriously; I see so many DX9.0c games these days, when that shit was outdated in 2008), the effective required hardware has gone down correspondingly for most titles.

Meaning that there is a MASSIVE numerical market in PCs; the only thing lacking is Publisher-Investor confidence, because PC is a market that not only has higher piracy, but isn't confined by proprietary control like consoles are.

...Of course, they are trying to change that. They want you playing in THEIR digital gardens, or not at all (Origin, Bnet 2.0 for example).

katsabas said:
I wouldn't play platformers on PC. Or racing games. Or sports games. The amount of above average exclusives on consoles I have owned has always been much better than on PC. It comes down to personal taste. Like God Of War to Neverwinter Nights.
Bolded: I don't understand why. USB controllers and adapters for console controllers already exist, and I can hook my computer up to virtually ANY TV (even cheap ones) made in the last 3-4 years.
By technical/objective reasoning, that makes no sense to me.
 

katsabas

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Atmos Duality said:
Bolded: I don't understand why. USB controllers and adapters for console controllers already exist, and I can hook my computer up to virtually ANY TV (even cheap ones) made in the last 3-4 years.
By technical/objective reasoning, that makes no sense to me.
It's no big deal, I am just used to the feel of a console. I played Crash Bandicoot, Spyro, Rayman on the PSone and that made it stick. I then tried Super Mario World via an emulator (for which I used an aforementioned SIXAXIS driver) and it wasn't the same. I also can't picture myself playing something like NBA Jam on the PC.

Personal taste at the end of the day.
 

Gerwich

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Zefar said:
For Titan Quest it's kinda sad that they went bankrupt. Their DRM was supposed to harm the pirates and it did. They got a buggy version of the game that had some pre programmed crashes and such. But then these ungrateful pirates go on an badmouth about the game.
They badmouthed the game because they thought it was buggy.
The DRM was undocumented, so they didn't know that the crashes were intentional, they just thought the company skimped on QA.
 

Aiedail256

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Andy Chalk said:
Big-budget PC exclusives are pretty much unheard of in this day and age. They do happen but they tend to be either indie affairs, low-budget niche products or Ukrainian
So big-budget games are usually low-budget. That makes perfect sense.
I don't care if that's been said already; I'm NOT going to read ELEVEN pages.
 

Gerwich

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GrAvItAtE22 said:
Hisher said:
Angry PC gamer here to say that a pirated game is not the equivalent of a lost sale.
if you pirate a game, you aren't going to buy it afterwards, are you? its close enough.
There are people who buy games after they pirate them, but they're a small enough demographic as to be insignificant.
There's also people who pirate games they already own because they don't want to deal with bs DRM. They're in the minority, but less so.
Then there's people who wouldn't have bought the game even if they couldn't pirate it. That actually probably makes up the majority of pirated media.
Any of those wouldn't count as a lost sale.