Piracy, Not Consoles, Killed the PC Exclusive
- Thread starter Andy Chalk
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Sad thing is, it's neither online nor Multiplayer. Which sucks as it has the potential.Sober Thal said:
My friend, I'm slightly at a loss as to what your motivation is. I've said that I'm not that interested, yet you continue to shove these games in my face going, "Look at these, look how good they are, are you not quivering with glee and anticipation." The fact of the matter is, none of the games you have shown me look particularly interesting to me. I'm not saying they're not going to be good, I'm just saying I'm not interested, partially because I haven't actually got the computer to play them and partially because I'm not a fan of racing games, flight simulators or mindless repetitive multiplayer games. Personally there are enough of the racing and shooter games on consoles to satisfy any cravings that may arise and most games that do get me pant-dropping excited are either coming out on both, or intriguing little indie games. Also I'll mention that I haven't played tourchlight yet, so me getting excited about it's sequel would be silly, however I may get the original to see if it is interesting or not.Treblaine said:
Alright fine, I did straw-man because of the trolly and aggressive way you addressed me. If we are going to have a legitimate discussion about this allow me to proceed.LiquidSolstice said:
lets go back to one of your earlier arguments then. Blizzard is too big to feel the effects of piracy.
How did they get that way?
Do you think back in the day when games could easily be copy pasted to floppies or CD's that they didn't suffer piracy?
Do you think blizzard didn't have starcraft/warcraft pirated?
If all this piracy was going on, to the extent that DRM is necessary is such a vital component to the survival of gaming, how did blizzard manage to survive?
Why would people buy this game, to the extent that it sold 11 million copies worldwide as of Feb 09, is piracy was the easier option?
(source: http://www.edge-online.com/news/blizzard-confirms-one-frontline-release-09)
Let go with minecraft as well, it sold a million copies while it was still in beta (ie free to play)
and now he has something like 20 million players world wide that play this game and a paying user base that is nearly 5 million strong.
(source: http://www.webcitation.org/mainframe.php)
How could he as a developer sustain such loses of potential sales and not just be completely ruined?
(source: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/115452-Notch-Mojang-No-Longer-Indie)
Wouldn't you argue that you, as a developer, shouldn't be concerned when people want the product you offer. You should be worried when no one wants your product at all.
Such as in the case of Too Human? which only sold 700,000 units in its life time, and made no claims excuses of "piracy" killing it's sales. (in fact you can't find any statistics or articles in relation to anyone pirating too human via my google searches)
But a game like Modern Warfare 3 within 24 hours of going on sale, the game sold 6.5 million copies in the US and UK alone and grossed $400 million, making it the biggest entertainment launch of all time. (source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_warfare_3)
And yet was able to achieve those numbers (those being just the 24 sales figures no life time figures have yet been posted) despite being the number 2 most pirated game of 2011.
(source: http://www.thesixthaxis.com/2011/12/31/the-ten-most-pirated-games-of-2011/)
It seems to me that games that have the most successful sales records are also the most pirated ones. Meaning that if piracy was killing them, they should not be successful or profitable. But yet they are able to profit and grow.
That's an unthinkably poor argument to take. I don't even know if you're trolling or not, but just so we're perfectly clear on how a "pirated" version of a game works I'll run through the steps:JonnWood said:
1. Install game
2. Install crack
3. Play game
You do not need to download an entire copy of a game (and if you have a game disc it wouldn't make sense too), you only need the crack.
The crack that pirates downloads is made up of code that the consumer has paid for (developed by the devs) and received free of charge (by the crackers). At no point does this increase the number of copies of the game they have taken (which, by the way, is typically not limited, the limit is occasionally applies to how many times the game can be installed, not downloaded).
There is absolutely no legal reason for any gamer to refrain from downloading a version of a game they have already paid for, or from backing it up to a private cloud system (obviously seeding it on torrent sites is illegal and immoral). It costs the publisher nothing in resources or pure economic loss (ie potentially lost sales), it does not violate the publishers state of beleif that upon buying software you are buying entitlement to use that software (as that's literally all one would be doing, modifying the software so that it works). There is no unfair sense of entitlement here, all that is happening is a software product is legally bought, and is then legally used within the bounds of common law...
Paying a penny is actually hurting the Humble Bundle more then piracy is. Since you are costing the Humble Bundle money, pay pal fees and such.Zefar said:
No, DRM doesn't make it signifigantly harder to stop Piracy, it makes it harder to stop Cracks from being made. But no DRM though out gaming history has ever stopped something like Piracy. You have a bare minimum of 1,000 people making crack, one person out of the 999 others can find it and spread it basically freely. Now, on a much bigger scale of 9,000 or more. Its like having 1,000 people do a puzzle, once one person figures it out, no one has to worry about solving it any other way. This is why Portal has no replay value, because as long as you remember the solution, every time after that you can solve it.
I've met people who won't visit a website if it has a AD that links you to a different page. Its the same with DRM, except for DRM is worse because it treats legal consumers like their criminals waiting to happen. Gabe Newell said it best, its a service issue. Give better service then a pirate site can and you've just converted some pirates.
Actually, no, pirates were complaining that the copy they got was buggy, that in no means that regular consumers were having a buggy experience. If something is told enough times, things get changed by different mouths. Its why if you tell someone a rumor at the end of the line it becomes something that it never was.
Saying that all pirates have no morality is not true. I pirated a game a long time ago because the copy that I owned was so fucking broken that there was no way in hell I could play it, so I pirated it as a way of fixing it. The pirate version worked 100 times better then the retail version. I bought my copy legally and laying down 60$ for something is putting a lot of trust into something that may or not work. Am I morally wrong because I pirated a copy, despite already supporting the company?
You can not peg down a single reason to why people pirate, you can guess but you can never peg a solid reason down.
DRM has been a problem for many, and I don't like being treated like a criminal. "You can't access online despite already buying this game legally, we can verify that you bought it legally, however, enter this 15 digit code for four different sections of the game then you can play. Then wait about a hour for it to verify for each one and your ready to roll. Whats that? You want to play online mode on a different profile? You silly person, you can't do that because the code as already been used on a different account."
I guess its ultimately debatable on all of what I said. But I'm just telling you that piracy isn't the fucking black plague of gaming. Its not as big of a problem as something like used games. If a company goes out of business because it had a Titan's Quest thing, tough. Then it goes out of business. I know people who pirate frequently, and they will go out and buy a brand new copy of a game that they had pirated if they like it enough.
I think the only thing I can say is: Piracy is a service problem.
No problem, its just you have to remember that PC Exclusives are fucking everywhere, and you have to look for them yourself, but they do exist in a very large quanity. Since its not like Console gaming which is a very closed nit, triple A games get all coverage thing, it may be harder to find them, but there exist many.mrhappy1489 said:
Ah fuck me, not the Titan Quest bullshit again.
Look it was a shitty Diablo clone, that came out waaaaay to late to capitalize on the Diablo bandwagon, and that got little to no publicity.
What the fuck did they expect ?
Sure the piracy thing is bad, but sometimes your game just sucks. Deal with it AND DO NOT RELEASE MORE EXPANSIONS FOR THE SUCKY GAME, THUS LOOSING EVEN MORE MONEY (which they did by the way).
Look it was a shitty Diablo clone, that came out waaaaay to late to capitalize on the Diablo bandwagon, and that got little to no publicity.
What the fuck did they expect ?
Sure the piracy thing is bad, but sometimes your game just sucks. Deal with it AND DO NOT RELEASE MORE EXPANSIONS FOR THE SUCKY GAME, THUS LOOSING EVEN MORE MONEY (which they did by the way).
OK, first you break rule number one of forum debate, now this no-content response? What does this add to the discussion? If you do not give a shit when do not respond just to say you don't give a shit.LiquidSolstice said:
Your characterisation of Valve games remains nonsensical and needlessly inflammatory. It is just monumental ignorance to say all the valve games are just swapped textures or a basic-mod of Half Life 2. It's just patently false assertion which is backed by no credibility, you credibility you destroy by a spiteful and wholly unsuitable comparison with the worse scourge of humanity of the 20th century.
Here is the thing: quality and/or innovative games will sell regardless, just like quality music will sell regardless. I truly believe that if a person really loves a game they will want to buy it even if they can pirate it. Just like people who love a music artist will buy their music (maybe I'm naive).Sandytimeman said:
But how many games are quality and/or innovative? 1%? 2%? So that's the problem. If a person can download something they only have a passing interest in, find out it is a dull/repetitive/copycat game, then that does hurt sales. And lets face it, most games are dull/repetitive/copycat. I mean why do you think game companies push so hard for presales, buy off game 'journalists', and rarely release demos? They don't want people to know what they are selling because once they do...and that is how piracy hurts sales.
Well for one you are not explaining yourself, you dismiss them in a way that seem completely arbitrarily almost as if you dismiss them just because they are PC exclusive. If it's the controls of PC form factor that turn you off then say so, because that's a zero sum comparison as plenty of people can't stand gamepad controls or Wiimote controls or whatever. If it IS just because you don't have a gaming PC that is the worst logic, it's like all those people who dismiss Uncharted because they don't own a PS3 then add the discussion that said platform is going the way of Dreamcast.mrhappy1489 said:
None of these are flight sims. Trackmania 2 is not the standard racing game like Dirt of Forza, it's a much more arcadey racer with insanity over boring realism. You'd know that if you gave it a chance. "Repetitive Multiplayer Shooters" are the most popular games on both PC and console.
"I'm not interested, partially because I haven't actually got the computer to play them"
What GAMES do you like. Games first, platform second. Don't just say "any game that I can play on the console I own" as this is a circular logic guaranteed to always dismiss any target platform
-don't care about games for platform X, as I can't play them
-can play said games because I don't own platform X
-don't own platform X because there are no games that I care about
-don't care about games for platform X, as I can't play them
-can play said games because I don't own platform X
-don't own platform X because there are no games that I care about
-don't care about games for platform X, as I can't play them
-can play said games because I don't own platform X
-don't own platform X because there are no games that I care about
and so on and so forth. You can apply this to PC gaming, Xbox 360, PS3, Wii... ANYTHING! This is a fallacy.
It should be a complete non-factor that you don't have a gaming PC or any platform, the games should interest you in and of themselves.
Come on, just NAME the type of games you like, you are OBLIGED TO as you dismiss pretty much ALL of the exclusive PC games of 2012 because none of them got you excited. Well if it turns out you don't like ANY games well then that's a pretty pointless comparison.
So come on, name one game you like. Name it. Just one. Can we stretch for two games? You cited your taste to exclude PC titles, lets see how relevant your tastes are?
"Personally there are enough of the racing and shooter games on consoles to satisfy any cravings that may arise."
This is the worse logic to apply, you are treating gaming on PC as something to be resisted and satisfied elsewhere when the actual point of discussion is that PC gaming DOES have something to offer. But if you are dead set on avoiding it at all cost and seeking out console gaming in preference in active attempt to AVOID ANY INTEREST then saying you aren't interested in PC's 2012 lineup is utterly hollow.
"haven't played tourchlight yet, so me getting excited about it's sequel would be silly"
Also, are you telling me you have never played any game - even console game - without playing all the prequels first?
Did you play Final Fantasy 1-6 before trying Final Fantasy 7? Did you try all the Call of Duty games before COD4?
Conclusion:
-what games do you like regardless of platform (you dismiss by taste, this demands comparison to have any weight)
-of the non-racing/shooter games on PC, what interest you (there are plenty)
-what would you be interested in if you had a gaming PC
-look past personal preference on controls as that is an zero sum comparison
I know it hurts the Humble indie bundle to pay a penny. But these pirates are so cheap they won't do that. Not even a penny is enough for them to buy a copy of several games.Aprilgold said:
No it was pirates that whined the most because they had most game breaking bugs. I think one of the bugs where that all of your skills got removed at some point.Aprilgold said:
The legit players had some bugs that caused problems. Like an infinitive loop of animation at a certain place causing FPS issues. But it was quite playable and fun too.
I'm curious to what game you played that was so much better in the pirated version.Aprilgold said:
Maybe not one but the majority of the pirates acts this way. You're most likely in a minority.Aprilgold said:
I like how people throw around the word "Criminal" A LOT.Aprilgold said:
Activation limits could be seen as house keys. As long as you got one you can use your house as much as you want. Lose all of your copies and you'll have to get some new ones.
But most DRM out there don't do anything to you. It's just there the first time you run the game after installing it. Then you don't see it anymore.
As for your "Then wait an hour to verify" is just bull. All of the verification I've seen on games takes about a few seconds then it will let me play it. If you switch account it's your own fault for thinking it would work.
You don't need a creditcard to buy Humble indie bundles. You can send some money to paypal from your bank which I'm sure plenty of people have.Tubez said:
They just pirate the games because they can and it's cheaper. No amount of "Better service" will get them to buy it.
You cannot say that that one download is a lost sale, true, but you can say that certain percentage of a number of downloads have a high probability of being lost sales.Therumancer said:
Saying all piracy contains no lost sales is equally as silly, as saying that every downloaded pirated copy is a lost sale.
I have personally never in my life based my purchases on someone who pirated the game, mainly because I've never been given the opportunity, and frankly every time I hear of someone having a pirated version of a game before it has come out, it makes me think of a unpolished unfinished version, and so quality can differ. But it's pretty sickening what happened to Titan Quest, piracy should never be integral to quality control, and titan quest also shows how it can be unreliable, the problem was that the consumers listened to pirates, which in itself is a problem.
There is a lot of reasons, but downplaying the significance of piracy contribution to this seems silly, http://www.tweakguides.com/Piracy_1.html makes a good read as to why it does contribute, and even if we pretend it had little significance, the industry believes that it has, and so would prompt them to move.
Based on what? PC gamers are a broad assortment of gamers, who could be playing Arma, Dwarf Fortress, or Farmville. Zynga have shown that if little investment/high profit is what you want, the PC is a very profitable platform.
Based on what? Has there been any study whatsoever on intelligence correlation with hardware? Some PC gamers are elitist, most aren't, and the intelligent ones are again, most likely not the ones who claim to be, and definitely not the elitist ones.
Based on what? Even if the game is derivative, it does not say anything about it's quality. again the saying "don't change it if it isn't broken" is often championed by gamers who are looking for exactly an experience derived from a former, which they have qualified as good.
This seems to be hyperbole more than anything, and ironically, a simplification of a complex situation. It's also not a problem exclusive to consoles, Shamus Copyrights and Copycats article talks about a problem of when things get too similar, his examples from reality are PC exclusives. The fact of the matter is that people don't mind similar experiences within a series, but abhor it across different games series, this is a sentiment shared by the console audience. Also talked about in Shamus article, is the subject of how looking similar, is not always an indication of actually being similar. So when you say that console gamers are willing to suck up a derivitive shooter or roster-updated sports franchise game with few questions or complaints, it might actually be because the games aren't similar when you actually make an effort to inspect them closer, or that they are within a series, and so not judged on the same standards.
Or it might also be true that piracy is a significant force, and that lesser convenience of console piracy makes enough of a difference that it is more profitable, without having to make facebook games, or subscription based/episodic content.
Blaming lower IQ as the significant factor in a cross platform migration seems extremely silly, and reactionary. The only thing clever about that, is that it is simultaneously an appeal to narcissism, and an insult.
Just because the PC industry didn't fall or go away, does not mean that piracy does not have a significant effect on the market, it simply means that the industry is adapting, and it is this adaption which is a problem, because it may just be that it is not adapting in a way that is for the better of the PC gamer. Up until now PC game companies have been doing two things to counteract the rampant PC piracy, either migrating to less piracy-prone platforms, or adjusting business models to try to capitalize on the remaining strong points of the PC platform, in some cases both.
Again, the below article is a close examination of piracy specific to the PC and the consequences this has had for the PC.
http://www.tweakguides.com/Piracy_1.html
It seems companies like Valve, CD Projekt (I'd mention Blizzard but they do run an MMO) and many indie developers manage just fine even with the piracy.
If you make a good game, people will buy it. If you just make a clone of another successful game (like Titan Quest), don't expect too many people to buy it. Especially if you include annoying DRM.
Yes, the PC does have a piracy problem, but it's not big enough to make developing for it not worth it.
If you make a good game, people will buy it. If you just make a clone of another successful game (like Titan Quest), don't expect too many people to buy it. Especially if you include annoying DRM.
Yes, the PC does have a piracy problem, but it's not big enough to make developing for it not worth it.
You are quite the persistent little fellow aren't you. Don't misunderstand what I am saying either, I have never in my existence ever dismissed PC exclusives or the PC as a gaming platform. While not a member of the PC gaming community, I know that it is the cornerstone of the gaming universe and without it, the world would be far bleaker for it. But 1 point I have to make above all else, is that I have played multiplayer only games and games which focus mostly on the multiplayer and they do not entertain me. It is fun at first but that wears off rapidly and to be honest, there are very few PC games I'm interested in because it is not something I regularly use nor ever have.Treblaine said:
Games I am interested in are Mari0, Kingdom of Amalur, NeverDead(I don't know why, its premise intrigued me), Mass Effect 3(though the ever present bug lurking in the depths of my mind fears mediocrity), Asura's Wrath, The Last Of Us(looks interesting to a degree, hopefully isn't samey) and Bioshock Infinite. When it comes to the indie market, I find it easier to just browse through whatever is on steam and hope for the best.
In response to your Torchlight comment, I generally like to play prequels, ones made before, not other prequels that are actually sequels but set before the original story, so as to obtain a sense of the universe and the lore. Even though I know that resistance 2 was the worst entry into the Resistance family, I still played it prior to the 3rd, so that I had an understanding of events and characters that evolved around them. You might suggest that I simply obtain my information elsewhere, but like reading the plot of a movie, not having played the game makes me feel like I'm missing out on the whole experience. However on the rare occasion I do pick up a sequel by accident, but if I am invested enough in it I will play its predecessors.
In response to your supposed obligation to provide you with information on my tastes, there is no reason for me to ever give you a response to anything. I am not obligated to inform you on anything, games included and your persistence is perplexing to say the least. Just because I wasn't fond of what you showed me doesn't mean I lack taste, nor does it mean that I dismissed the medium entirely, it just means that I wasn't interested in the options that you put forward. Is it that shocking to you that my opinion wavers on such trivial things?
Also it is a valid reason not to be interested in some of the games that are coming out on PC in 2012. From what I saw neither your list or the one before was a comprehensive analysis on the year that is 2012, so claiming I'm avoiding it it silly, I'm just not interested in all of them. I'll try a more eloquent summary of what I thought of the initial list, Some of the games put forward look interesting, but I'm not sitting here counting the hours until they're released nor am I going to have a heart attack when they are. Never once did I say I was uninterested I was only defending my position that I wasn't particularly enthralled by the ones you seem to advocate so hard for. To list the ones that look interesting, Cobalt, Torchlight 2 and Neverwinter. I hope you are content now that you know which games I'm looking forward to and which games at least appear interesting. No I am not interested in that Hawken game, I have never like fighting in Machines before and it would have to transcend the moon and stars themselves for me to care.
On a final note, I will congratulate your tenacity. While I saw little purpose in some of it, your continual badgering showed that you at least care for your artform a bit, which is more than can be said for others.
Your missing the point, people paying 1 penny is hurting the humble bundle MORE then people pirating it. I can't remember but I think pay pal fees were about two dollars, I'm just going to stick to the number for now. For every person that pays a penny through Pay Pal, the Humble Bundle loses 1.99 US dollars. Pirated copies do not necessarily mean that its a lost sale.Zefar said:
You then apparently skipped the very ending of that argument. Say something enough and eventually people will spread it, at the end of the line it will turn into something different. If I whisper "Jennie's in Love" and tell the person next to me to pass it on, it will become "Jennies a MILF." at the end. Of course it could become any number of things, but that is what happens when something is word of mouthed everywhere. People will not hear the original statement and will only hear the last statement, since its more recent. This is why their DRM system was bad is simply because word of mouth almost never gives viable information.
It was a Xbox 360 title was Halo 3, the disk I had received was heavily scratched and my receipt was too old to get it returned. Since I bought it right before leaving on a family vacation. A month later I come back and find out that it was, indeed highly crash prone, so I decided to pirate it through emulation to play through story mode.
You have no proof that I am the minority or majority, or do I to prove you wrong. Because, just like I said previously, its almost impossible to peg down a single reason for piracy.
The shortest time I had was a twentie minutes, and thats because no one else in the house was using the internet. And I'd like to point out that we have about four or five other people in this house downloading and streaming all at once so it does take me at least a hour to get a verification down for all the different things I need to verify.
Whats the main point of DRM? The main point of DRM is to stop piracy, but all its been able to do so far is hurt customers who bought the game legally and hurt used game sales, not by much but still.
No, its not my fault, I verified the game on the console, its the reason that you can play a game that you installed on one PC user and then switch to a different user and play the game. Its because the game has been saved to all of your program files. If I am on the same exact console but want to play Uncharted 3's multiplayer I have to switch to a different account entirely, despite logging in with the same online account as the one that has the verification on it.
And your homekey's statement I feel is very heavy handed. I don't always need my key if the front door is unlocked. I don't always need my key if there are other people at the house. There is always a exception to the rule.
I might as well also spend the time to address your bottom bit because I feel that it was half targeted at me and at Tubez.
No, people have mulitiple reasons to pirate games, in some places they can't even get games through and rational means without costing themselves a fortune. Some places don't have any game retailer near their homes, some don't have a viable shipping location. There are plenty of reasons why Piracy is a acceptable thing, granted, there are plenty to why it is not, but still. There is almost no way to pin down a single reason to a majority that will never truly admit to pirating and give a clear reason behind it.
I'm going to keep sticking to it, because it is mainly true. Piracy is a service issue. If you make your customer jump through flaming hopes of fucking fire, then they are obviously not going to like you very much. Or offer a copy of a game that is basically a beta for a full 60$. Or have tons of game breaking flaws. Or highly intrusive DRM. If you treat pirates a competitor rather then a enemy then you will get better results.
Serve out a better service then what pirates can do and you essentially defeated the main cause of piracy, distrust between company and customer.
Because those are the only games that are affected by piracy, right? They succeed in spite of piracy. Crytek said Crysis 1 was pirated at a rate of 15 to 1. 15 legit copies to every bought one. And lo and behold, the next game isn't PC-exclusive.Sandytimeman said:
They aren't competitors anymore than a leaky pipe is part of your plumbing system.Aprilgold said:
Even games with no DRM still have lots of piracy, most recently the Witcher 2, as well as games on Steam. People pirate because they want something they didn't pay for, not because of any service issue. Just because you don't like the game doesn't mean you deserve it for free.