Piracy, Not Consoles, Killed the PC Exclusive

ResonanceSD

Guild Warrior
Legacy
Dec 14, 2009
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Aeonknight said:
ThunderCavalier said:
Message to all bitching developers and publishers:

Stop fucking us over with DRM and people'll stop pirating your games.
Message to all bitching gamers:

Stop taking our shit without paying for it and we'll stop putting in DRM.


I swear people forget this DRM problem goes both ways.

Lol, well said.
CriticKitten said:
Dexter111 said:
Are we still at this...?

You know what I read on Forbes this morning?
http://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2012/02/03/you-will-never-kill-piracy-and-piracy-will-never-kill-you/
http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2012/02/03/how-the-entertainment-industry-can-beat-internet-piracy/

I foresee that things will change.
Both good reads. It's a shame the movie industry won't ever read them, because those writers have it exactly right.

I don't have a large movie collection. But if movies were cheaper and easier to access, I would have a library full of them. Same with games: I rarely find myself buying a full $60 title, but on Steam, I own well over two dozen games primarily because they are cheap and easily accessible.

ResonanceSD said:
wintercoat said:
Andy Chalk said:
Piracy is douchebag behaviour. That's not opinion, that's fact.
I miss when journalistic integrity was considered a strong force, when the phrase "that's not opinion, that's fact" would never have been thought to be uttered in regards to such a statement. As a news contributor, you should be ashamed. Your job is supposed to be about presenting facts, not coloring facts to suit your needs. Today's media is sickening.
As a News Corp employee, I'd like to remind you that people are smarter than you give them credit for.

As a user of this website, I can tell you that Andy is a contributor who does, in fact, provide news that is actually news and editorial that isn't opinion.

And whilst we are here, i have to say i agree. Pirates are douchebags. You want content? Pay for it.
And as someone who knows nothing of media but who actually knows the definition of scientific words, I can say that you're wrong.

"Pirates are douchebags" is an opinion by every sense of the definition. There is no factual basis to such a claim. "Fact" in the real world of science and mathematics (as opposed to "fact" in the journalist world that you're so entrenched in) can be supported by clear, objective evidence that removes any sort of doubt or question. That is why most science is based upon "theory" rather than "law" or "fact", since to be "fact" requires that there is 100% certainty and not a shred of doubt. But you can't find evidence to back up the assertion that "pirates are douchebags" because it is wholly subjective. There is no objective measure of "douchebaggery", the very use of the term is a subjective one that can change from person to person.

I also cracked up when you said that editorials are facts rather than opinions. Editorials, by definition, are the editor's opinion on a particular topic of their choice. They CANNOT be fact. So for a News Corp employee, you don't know a lot about how the news works, or perhaps you're so far stuck in the collective hivemind of the news media to think independently anymore, but editorials have never been an objective form of writing. They are opinions, that's all.

1. I agree with the sentiment. As i said in the post. Not that an opinion is a fact. As such, i skipped your second paragraph because it didn't apply.

2. Thanks for admutting you know nothing about media. As an in house term, we refer to what journos do as editorial.
 

MrTub

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Mar 12, 2009
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Zefar said:
ThunderCavalier said:
Message to all bitching developers and publishers:

Stop fucking us over with DRM and people'll stop pirating your games.
As if that has EVER changed pirates.

Want some proof?

Humble indie bundle.
ALL OF THEM.

Pirated every single time. They could buy them for anything but they don't. They can get the none DRM version too for just a penny. Do they pay that? Nope.

Pirates are going to pirate no matter what. Games without DRM just gets pirated more as it's easier. Some people see cracks as a possible source of keyloggers among other things so they don't bother with those.

But to think that no DRM will make people buy it more is just not true.

For Titan Quest it's kinda sad that they went bankrupt. Their DRM was supposed to harm the pirates and it did. They got a buggy version of the game that had some pre programmed crashes and such. But then these ungrateful pirates go on an badmouth about the game. They also demand help from the developers as well.

These people have no moral at all and just want everything for free.

DRM for me hasn't been an issue for the past 5 years. So I'm just fine with DRM.
Not everyone has a creditcard so I can still understand why some people decided to piracy it
 

MrTub

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GrAvItAtE22 said:
Hisher said:
Angry PC gamer here to say that a pirated game is not the equivalent of a lost sale.
if you pirate a game, you aren't going to buy it afterwards, are you? its close enough.
I've bought several games that somehow ended up being on my hdd before I bought them.
 

ReinWeisserRitter

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Nov 15, 2011
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Bullshit; people wanting to make more money killed the PC exclusive. And I can't fault them for that, but don't make us out to be the bad guys when it's you that wanted your wallets to be a bit fatter.
 

M-E-D The Poet

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Sep 12, 2011
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SHUT UP MEG

That's the first thing that came to mind

People should stop blaming piracy for everything

"OH NO PIRACY RUINS US"
"THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE ARE WITHOUT JOBS CAUSE OF PIRACY"
"PIRACY CAUSES AIDS YOU KNOW"

Just get the **** out of here, it's starting to piss me off

That's what I want to tell this guy straight to his face
 

CitizenV

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Hisher said:
Sober Thal said:
Hisher said:
Angry PC gamer here to say that a pirated game is not the equivalent of a lost sale.
Yeah, it's a product being used that wasn't paid for.
True but there is a good chance it wouldn't have been purchased in the first place.

How is that a defense? Piracy is Nihilism short and simple. I'm not judging you (I know you won't believe me when I say that) but pirate morality is a joke.
 

Heinrich843

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Apr 1, 2009
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CitizenV said:
How is that a defense? Piracy is Nihilism short and simple. I'm not judging you (I know you won't believe me when I say that) but pirate morality is a joke.
It's not a defense, it's the reality of the situation. It has nothing to do with "wrong" or "right", but the money that a person is going to spend on a product or in this case a lack there of. It can't be a lost sale if someone never wanted to buy it in the first place, they just wanted to try the game out but didn't want to spend the money. The side effect of this is that if they ever do find a way to block people from pirating games, they'll have to spend a lot more money advertising to get the word out about how "awesome" their game is so people know about it. I wonder how much that will cost them in comparison to perceived lost sales.

In this particular case, game cost has inflated to a price that can buy you a lot of something else. In the case of the PC, publishers have raised the price to match the current generation of consoles despite a lack of certain licensing fees and so on. People aren't going to want to whimsically drop 60 dollars on a game. The gaming industry has put itself in a place of, "Go AAA or fail horribly", and this is forced on the consumers. The symptoms of this are dev poor mouthing, excessive DRM, and piracy rage. Support the companies you like, but don't forget that their motive is to take every penny they can.

OT: I wonder if these people understand the things they're saying half the time, or if they're just severely misinformed.

I guess when you look at a torrent site and see "times downloaded" you can easily equate that the number of people pirating your game and playing it in it's entirety, using your online services, and ruining your life, you can just keep on truckin' and never look back.
 

Cid Silverwing

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Jul 27, 2008
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evilneko said:
Iron Lore makes stupid decision, blames pirates.

Film at 11.
This.

Why is the message not reaching these retards yet? Stop punishing your customers and piracy will go down!

Captcha: artisme fhepherd
 

BlueMage

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Jan 22, 2008
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vviki said:
On Topic: Yeah, tell that to Blizzard. The fact that you made no money with a cheap half-assed ripoff of Diablo, shouldn't be excused with piracy. To prove my point, a good Diablo Clone is Torchlight and I bet it made money despite it being sold for 3eur on Steam on sales, unlike your shitty 60eur game.

In general: Is it just me, or are more and more developers outright trolling PC Gamers for a cheap publicity? I hope those moves make them lose money and go away for ever. I personally won't buy anything from anyone who attempts this.
You'll probably find that in trolling us thus, they create a self-fulfilling prophecy.
 

BlueMage

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GrAvItAtE22 said:
Hisher said:
Angry PC gamer here to say that a pirated game is not the equivalent of a lost sale.
if you pirate a game, you aren't going to buy it afterwards, are you? its close enough.
False. I purchased Oblivion (plus both expansions) and Fallout 3 (plus all five expansions). After evaluating them.

You may want to get your head out of your arse before making such statements.
 

acosn

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Oh look, he made a Diablo clone that failed because the production team thought it was a good idea to put in game-breaking self-checks to combat piracy.

Because nothing fights piracy like something utterly indistinguishable from a bug.

Nothing to see here. These clowns are everything that's wrong with the industry.
 

LiquidSolstice

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Treblaine said:
LiquidSolstice said:
Valve is the laziest game dev on the planet. Do you know what the Valve formula is?

1. Take Half-Life 1,2.
2. Change textures.
3. Add witty dialogue
4. Bake in multiplayer
5. Ask people for more money for basically some modification of one of the Half-Life games.
6. Charge $15-$20 so that people don't notice.
7. Revel in your ragingly borderline fascist fanbase's reaction to a "new" game.
8. Add in something retarded and useless like Hat Trading to further prevent people from noticing that they're just playing HL.
Godwin's law: any credibility = gone

(Also, you seem to have no knowledge of how video games are made, nor even to have played many of them)

My Law That I Just Made Up: Your lack of any meaningful response = I don't really give a shit what you say.
 

LiquidSolstice

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Dec 25, 2009
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Sandytimeman said:
LiquidSolstice said:
Sandytimeman said:
Lol, as if I needed another reason to not buy their game. Yeah I agree Starcraft 2 TOTALLY flopped because of all the piracy...Same with Half-Life 2 TOTALLY BOMBED /sarcasm

Does anything else really need to be said, Blizzard and Valve are two of the biggest most successful companies out there, and they are mostly PC developers. These guys are just trying to mask lazy design and try and stop piracy.

But guess what I'm not buying or pirating this game, in fact, shit if your game isn't worth my money, it sure as hell isn't worth my time.
Blizzard and Valve; the golden temple for PC gamers to go and hide in while commenting on industry news articles.

Guess what? Bliazzard has such a MASSIVE following that piracy doesn't affect it. It has Warcraft, Starcraft, Diablo, and let's not forget, WoW.

Valve is the laziest game dev on the planet. Do you know what the Valve formula is?

1. Take Half-Life 1,2.
2. Change textures.
3. Add witty dialogue
4. Bake in multiplayer
5. Ask people for more money for basically some modification of one of the Half-Life games.
6. Charge $15-$20 so that people don't notice.
7. Revel in your ragingly borderline fascist fanbase's reaction to a "new" game.
8. Add in something retarded and useless like Hat Trading to further prevent people from noticing that they're just playing HL.
And that so much better then what? Fucking EA that charges 60 dollars for a yearly roster swap of madden? Oh I see your right that SOOOOOOOO much better. The thing is that Piracy is a service problem not a DRM problem.
I like how you've decided the following without any grounds whatsoever.
A. That I somehow think EA is better.
B. That I play Madden
C. That I think console piracy doesn't exist.

Great argument tactics! Can't refute the truth (this is exactly what Valve does all the fucking time), so why not just ignore it, create an alternate stance, and then attack that? Isn't that called.....oh, what's the word....?
 

LiquidSolstice

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Dec 25, 2009
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Cid SilverWing said:
evilneko said:
Iron Lore makes stupid decision, blames pirates.

Film at 11.
This.

Why is the message not reaching these retards yet? Stop punishing your customers and piracy will go down!

Captcha: artisme fhepherd
Wishful thinking. DRM will not go away, piracy will not either. Pirates and PC gamers know this, and they know that the whole "get rid of DRM and watch piracy go down" thing will never happen, so it's easy to fall back on something that won't happen.

All the people that are trying so hard to make the cracked releases work are just going to be happy that there is way less work involved in getting their free game.
 

LiquidSolstice

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Dec 25, 2009
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BlueMage said:
GrAvItAtE22 said:
Hisher said:
Angry PC gamer here to say that a pirated game is not the equivalent of a lost sale.
if you pirate a game, you aren't going to buy it afterwards, are you? its close enough.
False. I purchased Oblivion (plus both expansions) and Fallout 3 (plus all five expansions). After evaluating them.

You may want to get your head out of your arse before making such statements.
Yes, I'm sure every single person on this forum and on the internet is a white knight and no one could possibly be lying about this. Because you bought the games after "evaluating them" (nice term, by the way, you really had no right to try it before you bought it, but if that's how you want to justify it, that's your prerogative), everyone else must have, right?

Attention overly proud PC gamers: The world is full of cheap bastards. I would put down the deed to my house on the fact that there are more cheap bastards in this world than there are "honest" PC gamers who would pirate something and then pay for it afterwards.
 

Therumancer

Citation Needed
Nov 28, 2007
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Space Jawa said:
Hisher said:
Sober Thal said:
Hisher said:
Angry PC gamer here to say that a pirated game is not the equivalent of a lost sale.
Yeah, it's a product being used that wasn't paid for.
True but there is a good chance it wouldn't have been purchased in the first place.
Then what the frak are they doing playing the game if they never had any intention of paying for it in the first place? If you're not willing to pay for it, don't use it!
His point is that just becayse someone takes something for free, does not mean they would have paid for it. It's like a cup of pens with your company logo on them. If you put them there as free pens for advertising, everyone is going to grab one whether they are likely to use them or not. On the other hand if you sell them for $1 apiece as a souveneir not everyone is going to buy one who would have taken one for free.

This is the big problem with companies claiming piracy as lost sales, piracy tends to be an oppertunistic thing.

It's also important to note that you never see the industry talk about the OTHER side of the equasion and how piracy helps them. Largely because they are too distracted by these thoughts of huge piles of money, and desperatly wanting all those pirated copies to turn into sales as unrealistic as that is.

You might be thinking "Piracy? help The Gaming Industry, madness!". The simple truth is that the gaming industry is based around a lot of deception and demands leaps of faith from consumers from an unreturnable product. Trailers showing cinematics, or even brief flashes of gameplay are usless for something as involved as a game, and as we all know Demos do not always match what the finished product is like. Piracy lets a lot of people see the actual game and decide if they want to actually invest in the company doing this and encourage them to do more of it. Granted not every pirate will buy a game after trying a pirated copy, but a surprising number of them do. Pirates have also become an integral part of the quality control process for games given industry deception, with a lot of people who do not pirate waiting to hear what those that do have to say about a game before buying something that is unknown. This is incidently why "Titan Quest" got slammed due to it's DRM, it's own security backfiring on it, as many legitimate purchusers were not going to invest in what seemed to be a broken product.

To be honest, there are a lot of reasons why the industry is moving away from the PC. Piracy is just a cool sounding scapegoat. After all the industry was sustained by PC gamers at times when piracy was even more rampant, and grew into the current juggernaut it is now. Sure companies have fallen, but overall it's remained strong.

The bottom line is that it's not about making a profit, or making good games, but making the largest amount of money for the least investment of effort and resources possible. Like it or not PC gamers DO tend to be elitists and have very high standards compared to dedicated console users (I say dedicated because there is some overlap). Generally speaking someone who only games on a console tends to do it because they really can't get their head around the PC, windows, and a more complicated enviroment. The kind of person who uses a PC as their primary gaming medium tends to be of a higher intellectual quality with higher standards.

Consoles come with a standardized archetecture, and lots of toolkits (which also exist for the PC in some form) that make churning out derivitive games easy. You also have a less demanding audience that is willing to suck up a derivitive shooter or roster-updated sports franchise game with few questions or complaints. The PC gamers when handed similar products are more likely to go "wow, this is garbage" and not support it where console gamers will turn that junk into massive money making machines.

As a result you see an increasing tendency to want to develop things for a console, and then treat the PC versions as a second market where it either succeeds or it doesn't... It doesn't matter of the serious gamers or those with higher standards approve as long as they make their money.

See, that big, huge, deep RPG game with tons of statistics might make money, and justify itself, but it takes a lot of time and effort. The same amount of effort put into that could be used to turn the RPG into some kind of action-hybrid game with dumbed down stats, which takes less work, and will sell to more people on a console audience. Or heck, they might just put it into making another Halo or Gears Of War clone from the get go, and wait for serfs to start rolling the wheelbarrels of cash up to the front door.

You see piracy used as a boogie man when questioned, because really there is no way someone from the industry say "I'd rather make more money by selling cheaper and easier to make games to a less discriminating audience" which winds up making them look bad, and also kind of insults their audience. Blaming piracy is a clever way of trying to pass fault onto the audience hey are leaving.

In recent discussions on the topic, piracy is treated as if it's an issue that JUST started and is only affecting game development now. That's far from the truth, piracy has been around as long as personal computers and video games have. The Apple II, Commodore 64, and early PCs going bact to the 8088 chip and slow machines like that were absolutly rife with it. Companies like Sierra, Origin, and SSI who were big boys at the time all had their backs and forth with it, and made noise.... but despite it's prescence the industry didn't fall or go away, sure companies changed and disappeared, but even with it's prescence it grew into the monolith it is today. I'm not saying piracy is right, but it is NOT the major, monolithic problem that it's presented as. If anything piracy is actually less rampant now than it was when the industry was in a more fragile stage. Sure more stuff is pirated, and the techniques have changed, but it's a larger audience. Grabbing a game off of a P2P network is really just the new face of someone grabbing it out of the pirate section of a BBS run out of some dude's basement... I mean it was he same thing, call someplace else, download game someone cracked. The industry is just full of drama queens who have deeper products to put on their elaborate stage shows.

As far as I'm concerned stopping piracy is fine as long as they prevent their efforts from affecting me and other legitimate customers. I also think they should at least be more honest about why they do things rather than waving piracy around as a boogie man and get out of jail free card every time they want to misdirect things away from their own greed and exploitation.
 

LiquidSolstice

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Dec 25, 2009
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Therumancer said:
Space Jawa said:
Hisher said:
Sober Thal said:
Hisher said:
Angry PC gamer here to say that a pirated game is not the equivalent of a lost sale.
Yeah, it's a product being used that wasn't paid for.
True but there is a good chance it wouldn't have been purchased in the first place.
Then what the frak are they doing playing the game if they never had any intention of paying for it in the first place? If you're not willing to pay for it, don't use it!
His point is that just becayse someone takes something for free, does not mean they would have paid for it. It's like a cup of pens with your company logo on them. If you put them there as free pens for advertising, everyone is going to grab one whether they are likely to use them or not. On the other hand if you sell them for $1 apiece as a souveneir not everyone is going to buy one who would have taken one for free.

This is the big problem with companies claiming piracy as lost sales, piracy tends to be an oppertunistic thing.

It's also important to note that you never see the industry talk about the OTHER side of the equasion and how piracy helps them. Largely because they are too distracted by these thoughts of huge piles of money, and desperatly wanting all those pirated copies to turn into sales as unrealistic as that is.

You might be thinking "Piracy? help The Gaming Industry, madness!". The simple truth is that the gaming industry is based around a lot of deception and demands leaps of faith from consumers from an unreturnable product. Trailers showing cinematics, or even brief flashes of gameplay are usless for something as involved as a game, and as we all know Demos do not always match what the finished product is like. Piracy lets a lot of people see the actual game and decide if they want to actually invest in the company doing this and encourage them to do more of it. Granted not every pirate will buy a game after trying a pirated copy, but a surprising number of them do. Pirates have also become an integral part of the quality control process for games given industry deception, with a lot of people who do not pirate waiting to hear what those that do have to say about a game before buying something that is unknown. This is incidently why "Titan Quest" got slammed due to it's DRM, it's own security backfiring on it, as many legitimate purchusers were not going to invest in what seemed to be a broken product.

To be honest, there are a lot of reasons why the industry is moving away from the PC. Piracy is just a cool sounding scapegoat. After all the industry was sustained by PC gamers at times when piracy was even more rampant, and grew into the current juggernaut it is now. Sure companies have fallen, but overall it's remained strong.

The bottom line is that it's not about making a profit, or making good games, but making the largest amount of money for the least investment of effort and resources possible. Like it or not PC gamers DO tend to be elitists and have very high standards compared to dedicated console users (I say dedicated because there is some overlap). Generally speaking someone who only games on a console tends to do it because they really can't get their head around the PC, windows, and a more complicated enviroment. The kind of person who uses a PC as their primary gaming medium tends to be of a higher intellectual quality with higher standards.

Consoles come with a standardized archetecture, and lots of toolkits (which also exist for the PC in some form) that make churning out derivitive games easy. You also have a less demanding audience that is willing to suck up a derivitive shooter or roster-updated sports franchise game with few questions or complaints. The PC gamers when handed similar products are more likely to go "wow, this is garbage" and not support it where console gamers will turn that junk into massive money making machines.

As a result you see an increasing tendency to want to develop things for a console, and then treat the PC versions as a second market where it either succeeds or it doesn't... It doesn't matter of the serious gamers or those with higher standards approve as long as they make their money.

See, that big, huge, deep RPG game with tons of statistics might make money, and justify itself, but it takes a lot of time and effort. The same amount of effort put into that could be used to turn the RPG into some kind of action-hybrid game with dumbed down stats, which takes less work, and will sell to more people on a console audience. Or heck, they might just put it into making another Halo or Gears Of War clone from the get go, and wait for serfs to start rolling the wheelbarrels of cash up to the front door.

You see piracy used as a boogie man when questioned, because really there is no way someone from the industry say "I'd rather make more money by selling cheaper and easier to make games to a less discriminating audience" which winds up making them look bad, and also kind of insults their audience. Blaming piracy is a clever way of trying to pass fault onto the audience hey are leaving.

In recent discussions on the topic, piracy is treated as if it's an issue that JUST started and is only affecting game development now. That's far from the truth, piracy has been around as long as personal computers and video games have. The Apple II, Commodore 64, and early PCs going bact to the 8088 chip and slow machines like that were absolutly rife with it. Companies like Sierra, Origin, and SSI who were big boys at the time all had their backs and forth with it, and made noise.... but despite it's prescence the industry didn't fall or go away, sure companies changed and disappeared, but even with it's prescence it grew into the monolith it is today. I'm not saying piracy is right, but it is NOT the major, monolithic problem that it's presented as. If anything piracy is actually less rampant now than it was when the industry was in a more fragile stage. Sure more stuff is pirated, and the techniques have changed, but it's a larger audience. Grabbing a game off of a P2P network is really just the new face of someone grabbing it out of the pirate section of a BBS run out of some dude's basement... I mean it was he same thing, call someplace else, download game someone cracked. The industry is just full of drama queens who have deeper products to put on their elaborate stage shows.

As far as I'm concerned stopping piracy is fine as long as they prevent their efforts from affecting me and other legitimate customers. I also think they should at least be more honest about why they do things rather than waving piracy around as a boogie man and get out of jail free card every time they want to misdirect things away from their own greed and exploitation.
Although I don't agree with certain things, this is an extremely well-written post with very good points. It made for a great read :)
 

AhumbleKnight

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Apr 17, 2009
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Aeonknight said:
Faerillis said:
Aeonknight said:
Never heard of beta testing I assume? That's about the closest you're going to get with demo's nowadays. And they're not uncommon either.
Ok not that I disagree with the idea that "I should've been allowed a demo" is a paper thin excuse for piracy ? which when it comes to Video Games is without a doubt an incredibly douchy thing to do, BUT Betas are not Demos, Video Games should have Demos, Beta Tests being as close as people get to demos for video games is in NO WAY acceptable. As far as the video game community goes there are more or less two groups "The Takers," who see what they want and take it and "The Takers" who see what they want but don't want to get lumped in with the pirates and bend over and take it.
We must have different definitions of "bending over and taking it" then, because I've never pirated anything, nor have I been completely screwed over by any DRM a company has put out. Goes back to my "user error" point when people have to spend 4 hours "fixing" a game... But I digress.
That is bloody rude to ignore my responce regarding why I spent 4 hours trying to fix that game and then go on continuing to call it user error. Buggy DRM happens. Just because it hasn't happened to you yet doesn't mean that people don't experience it.

Aeonknight said:
I won't say that beta's and demo's are one and the same. But technically... a beta is capable of fulfilling a demo's purpose while giving the developer an opportunity to be lazy bastards and not have to focus on QA as much. Just from the beta's I've seen, no game has been completely reworked from the ground up in the short time between beta test and official release.

Sure you're going to deal with glitches and such in beta, but for the most part you're also going to get a good impression on how the game plays. Example: gears of war 3. the gameplay of both the beta and release is pretty much identical, with maybe a few changes in gun specs for balancing purposes. There's nothing I would've seen in an official demo that I wouldn't have seen in a beta test.

Another example: Final Fantasy XIV. Yes, that game. It had a beta available, and plenty of people tested it. The same testers also said that the game had a lot of gameplay issues and was nearly unplayable in it's current state. Square Enix released the game anyway, and what did we get? A game with a lot of gameplay issues that was nearly unplayable.


It may just be developer laziness that has skewed the line between beta and demo, but for all intents and purposes they may as well be the same thing.
Getting on a Beta list is not a given.