Piracy, simply put.

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freakymojo

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i mean, if youre entitled to free games surely i am too? and so are all my friends arent they? and my family? and my friends family?

oops the developer went out of buisiness. was a damn good game though.
 

Signa

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Jul 16, 2008
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RubyT said:
Signa said:
if you think that thug didn't deserve to be shot, then you are just completely misinformed about how the world works.
He didn't "deserve" to be shot.

I wouldn't blame the cop for shooting him once. I think the situation could and should have been resolved better. The guy just threatens the other cop, who himself retreats. He did to me not look to be in immediate danger. But the situation could have appeard different live. So I wouldn't blame the cop for one shot.

But he shot him 5 times in 1 second, paused for a beat, the thug turned around, then got shot another 5 times in the back, the last 1 or 2 shots hit him on the ground.

Yeah, I think policemen should be trained to handle a situation like this better than to basically execute a thug, even if that causes risks to themselves.

I usually side with cops, because my brother-in-law is one. There's a lot of "Taser"-vids on youtube and while often it seems quite an overreaction, my sentiment is usually "If the cops engage you - cooperate!"

The first quick notion that popped into my mind when the thug made his move was "Stupid!", but when that cop didn't stop shooting, I couldn't believe it.
You're entitled to your opinion, but let me let you know I have no love for cops and the shit I see them pulling on video. This one is completely a clear-cut case. There may have been less lethal alternatives to the situation, but there always are less lethal options if you get 30 cops to dog-pile a guy with a gun. But I don't think I need to tell you why that is not a real option.

Also, who gives a shit how many times he fired his gun. 1 shot or 100 shots, the thug needed to be stopped, and once the first shot was fired, lethal force was being used and his life was forfeit. If you don't think lethal force is the proper escalation for attacking a cop with a weapon, then you should ask yourself when is a cop supposed to use their firearm? After a blow is landed? It's not like he was using a foam water noodle that kids use for swimming with, it was a fucking crowbar!

Anyway, the reason why I'm derailing your thread about another matter entirely is how much of your argument was based on how piracy doesn't hurt anyone. How can I trust your opinion on this matter if you think that the thug wasn't hurting anyone enough to deserve lethal force? Your sense of what hurts people or not is clearly warped by the information you have presented.
 

AnarchistFish

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Mortai Gravesend said:
AnarchistFish said:
Mortai Gravesend said:
AnarchistFish said:
Mortai Gravesend said:
AnarchistFish said:
Mortai Gravesend said:
AnarchistFish said:
I honestly believe that when I pirate, I'm not doing something immoral, at all. Illegal? Sure, yeah, but that doesn't take into account the context.

All piracy has done is allow me to let me listen to as much music as I want, discover new bands that I would never have bothered with otherwise, and let me pick the albums I've then wanted to purchase physically. I haven't spent any less money on music than I would have if I were forced to purchase everything. If anything I've spent more, because this way I'm guaranteed to be contributing to an artist I genuinely like. And trust me, I spend a lot on music.
Oh yes, let's just look at what it's done for you. That's the way to determine whether something is ethical or not.

What's unethical is that you enjoy it for free, when those who own it do not wish to give it away. Doesn't matter how much else you spend on music, that bought you the music you got, not rights to other music.
So who's losing out? Who's directly losing out?
So, who's being resurrected from the dead? Who!?

Or in a more direct way of saying things, now with 100% less sarcasm... I never said anyone was losing out so don't ask me stupid questions. No one needs to lose out for it to be unethical.
I didn't say you said that, but as far as I see it, if the artist isn't actually being negatively affected by me downloading their music, I don't see why it's a problem. Maybe on the face of it it's unethical, but that's an extremely narrow minded way of looking at it.
Oh so you're only looking at benefit. Well that's a very narrow minded way of looking at it.

Oh wait, just saying something is narrow minded doesn't actually show that it is! Do I get a Nobel prize for this stunning discovery? I'll settle for a good argument for how it is narrow minded though instead of your worthless attempt at dismissal.
I've already said. It doesn't take into account the context.
You didn't say that. Look at your posts. Also, just saying "Context" is a horrible argument. Why, in this case, should the context change anything about it? The context doesn't necessarily give a different conclusion. Just saying 'context' is a lazy and unintelligent argument.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.339792-Piracy-simply-put?page=3#13749519
And before you say that legality is different to ethics; you're pretty much deriving that it's unethical from the fact that it's illegal.

I guess the thing here is that I'm taking a utilitarian stance here, and you're not. Nothing can really change that.

On a side note, why are you taking such a self-righteous and superior stance here?
 

Asehujiko

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Buretsu said:
Asehujiko said:
ablac said:
How bout this. Defending piracy is incredible arrogance. If everyone pirated games then there would be no games made as there would not be any money to support their development nor would there be any incentive to create them. This is irrefutable.
Argument refuted by the existence of freeware.
Argument refuted by the fact of most freeware being either really old programs or trial versions of programs that have to be paid for.
I can win discussions too by pretending reality contorts itself to fit what I'm trying to say too.
 

RubyT

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BiscuitTrouser said:
I stole these glasses but i bought this shirt. But the glasses werent "free" because i paid for the shirt.
Thats the logic i assume youre using?
Yes. It's different in the world of finite physical things, because there, money is used as a distribution tool. But it applies in the world of virtual goods, where only the original cost money to produce, but each copy is for free.

Quote a line where i said "i deserve more things than you" where the context DOESNT mean "Because i can afford them".
Ah. Suddenly there's context.

But you DONT give back when you pirate. You give back elsewhere.
Exactly.

Way to ignore my arguements about how me paying for everything is giving back more than you paying for some things.
Just like you ignored the argument that I had given all I could.

Lemme change this for you then. You give nothing back in the instances where you pirate The creator gets NOTHING.
But somebody else does.

Im saying you deserve what you buy and earn. Which i do. If you earn more than me you deserve more than me.
Well, in my philosophy, buying is not equal to earning. And earning is not equal to deserving.

You dont pay for some things. Thats wrong. That damages the economy.
No. If I were to take my money away from HP and give it to Valve, the economy would still be the same. THAT IS THE POINT.

It doesnt mean you contribute extra special
I never said that.

This isnt even covering the rights of the creator of the work you are taking against their will.
Frankly, if they don't want their creation consumed, they should not publish it.

And piracy gives nothing back. Thats just true.
Sure. But me not buying AND not pirating isn't giving back anything either.
 

Alterego-X

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Mortai Gravesend said:
The history of it does not invalidate it.
No, but it doesn't validate it either. Just because copyright law exists, that doesn't make it morally desireable. It needs to have a logical basis.

Several times in this thread, you were arguing that copyright infringement is unethical. But if there is no logical basis to justify it's existence, then basically you are just saying that "piracy is bad because it's illegal". That's just an appeal to the status quo, to leave everything as it is, just because it happens to be the current law.

Mortai Gravesend said:
It's just enforcing copyright. That is not an outdated business model in and of itself.
Copyright, as a whole, isn't. For example we can still enforce laws against plagiarism, or against commercially selling someone else's property. But not people downloading media. The problem is, that already a huge percentage of the internet userbase pirates. The idea of continuing to randomly arrest a few average internet users (who did the same thing as several million others like them), to make an example of them, is not just futile, but directly contradicts the Rule of Law maxim, that means:

...all persons, institutions and entities, public and private, including the State itself, are accountable to laws that are publicly promulgated, equally enforced and independently adjudicated, and which are consistent with international human rights norms and standards. It requires, as well, measures to ensure adherence to the principles of supremacy of law, equality before the law, accountability to the law, fairness in the application of the law, separation of powers, participation in decision-making, legal certainty, avoidance of arbitrariness and procedural and legal transparency.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_law
You can't arrest the entire world just to enforce copyright laws.

Multiple developed countries already declared that downloading copies of IP for personal use, is legal there. And nothing happened. Certain industry segments might have shown some arguable decrease there, but generally, media continued to be sustainable without insisting on extending copyright laws to what we now know as piracy, and easily get rid of that awful conflict in the legal system.
 

Uber Waddles

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Mortai Gravesend said:
Uber Waddles said:
Do I think charging $40 for a re-release of a game over a decade old is too much? I certainly do.
How would this be justification to pirate it instead of just doing without it?

Do I think you are justified to torrent a game if its DRM is holding it back, and a group of modders have removed it from the equation? I certainly do.
Are you at least expecting them to buy a regular copy? DRM isn't justification to get it for free.
To answer your first question, business integrity. Lets take the original Sonic. In its un-modified form, it can cost anywhere between $5-15. For a game thats over two decades old.

Alternatively, you can find an emulator and a ROM, and just go to town.

I used to be against such an idea, but really, I don't see why. Why should I be guilted into buying a game at an unreasonable price point, just because the developer thought "I would like to milk this cow again". This is done in increasing numbers in the industry, titles are being re-published for second, third, even fourth and greater helpings of profits, without ANY additional content being added. Thats a bit unreasonable to me, and shows no integrity on the developers part. As to your stance on "just dont play it", everything media related is something used for entertainment. Which boils down to the idea of "because I want to". Sounds like a bit of a childish arguement to make, but thats what it boils down to in the entertainment industry. So I don't think its unreasonable for a person to say "I want it, your asking too much for it, I'll find it elsewhere.". The beauty is too that with piracy, your not stealing it. Im not removing a copy from inventory that wasn't payed for. The only damage its doing is hypothetical.

As for the DRM issue, refer to the block of text above. Integrity. Ill use Assassins Creed 2 as an example. Remember when it had that DRM that forced you to be online to use it? I see no problem in pirating it, if you bought a copy or not. If you bought a copy, you are entitled to download one with the DRM stripped out of it. So go for it.

If you didn't, its a customer service issue. More of a "I will not support a company who employs this" kinda thing. Once again, one could simply go without it. I see no problem with the "I want it, your being unreasonable" arguement.

I have never pirated a game, like I said in my previous post. The only one I considered doing it for was Kingdom Hearts 2: Final Mix. I owned both the games it came with, they just had extras, and it is a region locked game - you can only get it in Japan. I payed for that game, I dont see why I should be excluded when the developer said "we want to milk more money from you, but wont release it over-seas". I would have gladly payed for it too.

To me, its all a customer service issue. The only reason I wanted to pirate that game was because I wanted it and it was unavailable to me. I would have gladly bought it full price, but it was not offered to me. And I look at piracy like that: I never bought AC2 for the PC because I perfer those types of games on the console, and had it on the console. If it didnt have that unreasonable DRM, and no Xbox, I would have purchased it. If I had the cash, but they used that ridiculous DRM crap, I would not buy it, but instead take it. I want it, I had the INTENT to buy it, but buying it was unreasonable. So I didnt.

Essentially, I judge the merits of pirates on their original intent, not their action. If I had the INTENT to spend the money, but the company was being unreasonable for whatever reason, I have no quarrels taking the content digitally. Like Ive said, its not stealing (in any sence of the word; legally, morally, physically), its down to copyrights.
 

ElPatron

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Erana said:
BrassButtons said:
RubyT said:
Piracy's not stealing, because nothing is taken.
You're right, it's not stealing. It's copyright infringement.
Which is illegal, just like Stealing.
So is murder.

Am I murderer for pirating? (hypothetical, I don't have the nerve to state I never committed copyright infringements like everyone else on the Escapist - because I sure did commit a lot of them back when we had music and VHS tapes)

Copyright infringement is not stealing, otherwise both would be the same crime and have the same sentences.

When you were a kid you noticed the fine print in the cover of your favourite album?

If you borrowed or lent someone a tap/CD/VHS you were committing copyright infringement. If you let your friends watch that film during a sleepover, you have committed copyright infringement.

Now, according to your logic you have been stealing.

Get off your moral high horse so I can steal it.
 

spectrenihlus

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Mortai Gravesend said:
spectrenihlus said:
Mortai Gravesend said:
Uber Waddles said:
Do I think charging $40 for a re-release of a game over a decade old is too much? I certainly do.
How would this be justification to pirate it instead of just doing without it?

Do I think you are justified to torrent a game if its DRM is holding it back, and a group of modders have removed it from the equation? I certainly do.
Are you at least expecting them to buy a regular copy? DRM isn't justification to get it for free.
What difference is it to the publisher if you pirated something vs not downloading it at all. They don't get payed either way.
And? They'd rather you don't do it and it is their intellectual property.

A lot of publishers Are living in and old model. If they truly wished fight piracy they would stop selling all brand new games at $60.
If you truly wished to be taken seriously you wouldn't make such a stupid statement. They do want to fight it. Saying their methods are ineffective says nothing about motive.

Take for example a game of thrones I literally called up a hbo to find some way just to watch this show without buying all of hbo. I DON'T HAVE THAT OPTION I can only watch a game of thrones if I subscribe to hbo. This is unacceptable, I wish to pay for a product and I am unable to.
It's only unacceptable if you feel that you're entitled to it. But since you're not, it isn't unacceptable.
No I am not entitled to it however, the reason HBO developed the show was to create a profit. I offered to pay just to watch that show as I did not want to watch any of their other shows. Why do you think netflix is so popular, I can choose to watch a show that I want when I want for a VERY low monthly fee compared to satellite and cable. THAT is the future and if the publishers cannt change their system then they die simply put. What pirates are offering is a superior product simply put.
 

M920CAIN

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May 24, 2011
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evilneko said:
RubyT said:
Piracy's not stealing, because nothing is taken. They never had my money. They make the case they'd gotten it without piracy, but since I've probably streamed more movies than my cumulative net worth, that argument is defeated by simple math.
My landlord is probably not going to like the idea of me re-prioritizing my expenditures to the purchase of entertainment products.

Some say you shouldn't download stuff you can't or don't want to afford. Why? Who's that helping? Who's getting paid in Karma points?
"Dear EA, last month I didn't buy or download any of your games. You're welcome!"
"I wouldn't have bought it or can't afford to buy it anyway" is not an excuse.

People don't get critizised for waiting a year until the retail price drops to $10.
I'd hazard a guess that's because they aren't breaking any laws.

Well, they might as well download the game right away and mail the dev $10. Personal asketicism during one's time of abstinence isn't helping their employees pay the rent anyway.
Absurd.

Buy a game second hand - you might as well pirate it. "But people have always sold off things and bought used things." Yes. This truth still doesn't help the devs pay the rent.
A clean conscience isn't valid currency in the free market economy.
Absurd and already-refuted argument.

I don't hoard money. Can't. I spend all my income. Every month. I'm doing my part. Why should I not get stuff free when it doesn't hurt no-one? Me downloading a CD doesn't diminish the record company's ability to sell it to somebody else.
Because while your individual download of something may not hurt anyone, the collective of people doing it can and often does. Depending on how you got your download, it may help others download it and/or encourage further piracy.

Let's say I need to ride the bus home. I only have five dollars on me. I can't pay more. But five dollars is only gonna get me within four blocks. The bus is empty, or at least empty enough, so I don't take nobody's seat. Who is helped by me getting off the bus to walk the rest? (apart from my health)The bus is going there anyway, I don't diminish any paying customer's ability use it.
And at the next stop there's a group of two-dozen polka dancers waiting. Stupid analogy is stupid.

What kind of twisted Christian guilt morality makes one assume it is wrong to just ride the bus until home?
Not even gonna bite at that flamebait...

What does that conscience say when you proudly buy a video game full price like a good patriot, and then play it on the X-Box that is only so cheap because some legal slave in China assembled it for 2 bucks a day, while you're wearing the T-Shirt that some Indonesian kid sowed instead of going to school?

Aren't we accustomed to screwing people over by now?
Let's stick to the topic shall we?

OP makes good points. You sir are an i-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------nconsiderate.
The truth is piracy is nowhere near as bad as it's made out to be. But indoctrinated people will say otherwise. I believe the support the developer whenever you can policy, but not when supporting means screwing myself over for jacked up prices.
 

ZippyDSMlee

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IMO Piracy can only happen when money is involved when no money is involved in it's distribution its nothing but information that should not be messed with as its going to be one of the last few freedoms we will have left.

If you go after all the sites taking in donations or ad rev or direct selling the IP without a licenses you will reduce file sharing so much more than trying to go after everyone who posts on the internet.
 

ablac

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The publishers and devs are businesses. They are not trying to be unfair or screw you over they are trying to make money. If they charge at a certain price it is because that is where they think they will make the most money from their sale. This is the fact of almost every market. If you do not like the price then you do not have to buy the game. However the price being set too high is in no way justification for you to then go and obtain the product from someone else, whom has no right to be providing it to anyone else morally and legally, for free. If oyu would not have bought it then dont buy it. Games are not a need so if the creators (publishers fund it so they are partly the creators) choose to charge for it then you should pay to enjoy their product or go without.
 

ablac

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Asehujiko said:
Buretsu said:
Asehujiko said:
ablac said:
How bout this. Defending piracy is incredible arrogance. If everyone pirated games then there would be no games made as there would not be any money to support their development nor would there be any incentive to create them. This is irrefutable.
Argument refuted by the existence of freeware.
Argument refuted by the fact of most freeware being either really old programs or trial versions of programs that have to be paid for.
I can win discussions too by pretending reality contorts itself to fit what I'm trying to say too.
I said in a later post that if they choose to charge for it then you must pay or go without and that you are not justified to take any other option. Freeware is fine because the creator intended it to be free. The argument still stands for everything else i just didnt think about freeware when i first wrote the post.
 

AnarchistFish

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Mortai Gravesend said:
AnarchistFish said:
Mortai Gravesend said:
AnarchistFish said:
Mortai Gravesend said:
AnarchistFish said:
Mortai Gravesend said:
AnarchistFish said:
Mortai Gravesend said:
AnarchistFish said:
I honestly believe that when I pirate, I'm not doing something immoral, at all. Illegal? Sure, yeah, but that doesn't take into account the context.

All piracy has done is allow me to let me listen to as much music as I want, discover new bands that I would never have bothered with otherwise, and let me pick the albums I've then wanted to purchase physically. I haven't spent any less money on music than I would have if I were forced to purchase everything. If anything I've spent more, because this way I'm guaranteed to be contributing to an artist I genuinely like. And trust me, I spend a lot on music.
Oh yes, let's just look at what it's done for you. That's the way to determine whether something is ethical or not.

What's unethical is that you enjoy it for free, when those who own it do not wish to give it away. Doesn't matter how much else you spend on music, that bought you the music you got, not rights to other music.
So who's losing out? Who's directly losing out?
So, who's being resurrected from the dead? Who!?

Or in a more direct way of saying things, now with 100% less sarcasm... I never said anyone was losing out so don't ask me stupid questions. No one needs to lose out for it to be unethical.
I didn't say you said that, but as far as I see it, if the artist isn't actually being negatively affected by me downloading their music, I don't see why it's a problem. Maybe on the face of it it's unethical, but that's an extremely narrow minded way of looking at it.
Oh so you're only looking at benefit. Well that's a very narrow minded way of looking at it.

Oh wait, just saying something is narrow minded doesn't actually show that it is! Do I get a Nobel prize for this stunning discovery? I'll settle for a good argument for how it is narrow minded though instead of your worthless attempt at dismissal.
I've already said. It doesn't take into account the context.
You didn't say that. Look at your posts. Also, just saying "Context" is a horrible argument. Why, in this case, should the context change anything about it? The context doesn't necessarily give a different conclusion. Just saying 'context' is a lazy and unintelligent argument.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.339792-Piracy-simply-put?page=3#13749519
And before you say that legality is different to ethics; you're pretty much deriving that it's unethical from the fact that it's illegal.

I guess the thing here is that I'm taking a utilitarian stance here, and you're not. Nothing can really change that.

On a side note, why are you taking such a self-righteous and superior stance here?
Wow, you really are trying hard to be ridiculous here. Where the fuck did I derive it from it being illegal? I didn't. You're using a strawman. Goes in line with your other horrible arguments.

Well you could stop being so full of yourself claiming that because I disagree I have a narrow view. That could change.

Side note: I find the arguments here rather awful. I am going to be scathing towards awful arguments. It isn't being self-righteous. Btw, great laugh hearing you talk about self-righteous and superior what with the 'context' shit you tried to pull earlier.
Ok then. So are you going to actually explain your argument instead of just insulting mine and finding any tedious detail possible in an attempt to undermine it rather than just face it head on?
 

RubyT

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Techno Squidgy said:
I don't know whether to laugh at your posts, get mad or cry. If you're a troll consider your mission fucking accomplished. If you're not, then I wish to express a particular sentiment. That would be, go fuck yourself. You moron. I don't know how people like you get this unwarranted sense of entitlement. There are so many things I want to say to you, but god damn I just can't get over this unbelievable arrogance of yours.
I thought about ridiculing your post, but I understand that you are genuinely upset. That was not my intention.

Maybe I am arrogant. Though I don't mean to be. On purpose.

But I do have a sense of entitlement. And so should you.
 

Grunt_Man11

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I'll said it once and I'll say it again, (with less insulting this time).

If you are not willing to pay for a good, or service; and the provider is not willing to give away said good, or service, then you are not entitled to it!

It's that simple.

Piracy is the same as shoplifting. There being no "physical object to steal" is completely irrelevant.

You want to make sure SOPA stays dead? Want to keep other bills like it from seeing the light of day? Then start by not supporting piracy.
Hack the pirates, Anonymous!
As long as the internet is seen as a safe haven for pirates then likes of SOPA and PIPA will continue to show their ugly, ugly heads.

If a game publisher, or developer, has angered you then don't buy their games and don't play their games. If you want to take a stance against a company then get a spine and actually make a real sacrifice.
 

proctorninja2

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Jun 5, 2010
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waiting for mod wrath, though at the end of the day however people feel about piracy its still illigal and is not a force of good
 

Alterego-X

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proctorninja2 said:
waiting for mod wrath, though at the end of the day however people feel about piracy its still illigal and is not a force of good
Then obviously it needs to be legalized, so it would be a force of good.:p
 

Chris Pond

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Ultimately, piracy equates to obtaining something without paying for it, if we all did it, no one would make any money, so no one would bother using their own money to make the things that are being pirated.

Ironically, the majority of pirated games are, presumably, AAA titles like Modern Warfare and Battlefield, titles that will eventually stop being made once the companies that make them stop making back the money they invest.

I guess that makes it fortunate that Indie games are becoming so much easier to put together in people's spare time, because sooner or later, those are the only games we'll have left.
 

Alterego-X

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Chris Pond said:
Ultimately, piracy equates to obtaining something without paying for it, if we all did it, no one would make any money, so no one would bother using their own money to make the things that are being pirated.
Squashing a mosquito on your arm contributes to destroying our planet, because if we would squash every mosquito in the world, the extinction of the species would screw up the ecosystem. :p

That's a logical fallacy. I'm not sure which one, probably related to Slippery Slope. No one who argues that piracy is not immoral, suggests that everyone should always pirate everything.

In fact, even many people who actively pirate, AND argue in favor of piracy, are still frequently buying media as well.