[Politics] Nazis Attack LGBT Pride Parade

[Terminal Blue]

The topic is literally about Nazis. Godwin's law is not even a fallacy, it is simply a theorized observation.

It's even worse than that.

Godwin's Law is a joke.

As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1 is a valid statement, but it's a meaningless statement if taken seriously because it literally just describes how time works. You may as well say as an online discussion grows longer, the probability of everyone involved being destroyed by vacuum decay approaches 1 and because we haven't clarified what "longer" or "approaches 1" actually means it's still technically valid. The rhetorical point is that people compare things to Hitler too much and inappropriately.

The fallacy which Godwin's Law references is Reductio ad Hitlerum, or more formally an association fallacy whereby an irrelevant association is used to discredit something by comparing it to Hitler or the Nazis. Note that I've bolded the word irrelevant, because that's the actual important bit.

Mike Godwin has always been very clear that the point of "Godwins Law" is not to provide a cover for actual far right policies or activities, or to censor relevant comparison between contemporary political debates and Nazism from the internet, but to make people think twice about the seriousness of such comparisons.

 

[Saelune]

The topic is literally about Nazis. Godwin's law is not even a fallacy, it is simply a theorized observation.

It's even worse than that.

Godwin's Law is a joke.

As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1 is a valid statement, but it's a meaningless statement if taken seriously because it literally just describes how time works. You may as well say as an online discussion grows longer, the probability of everyone involved being destroyed by vacuum decay approaches 1 and because we haven't clarified what "longer" or "approaches 1" actually means it's still technically valid. The rhetorical point is that people compare things to Hitler too much and inappropriately.

The fallacy which Godwin's Law references is Reductio ad Hitlerum, or more formally an association fallacy whereby an irrelevant association is used to discredit something by comparing it to Hitler or the Nazis. Note that I've bolded the word irrelevant, because that's the actual important bit.

Mike Godwin has always been very clear that the point of "Godwins Law" is not to provide a cover for actual far right policies or activities, or to censor relevant comparison between contemporary political debates and Nazism from the internet, but to make people think twice about the seriousness of such comparisons.

I have compared things in the past to Nazis that I would not do now, because I naively thought we would never let anyone get this close to actually being a second Hitler! I honestly did not think the Republican Party would ever actually get this far this way.

I also think most people think Hitler happened over night, that it was like, Day 1: Hitler becomes leader, Day 2: Holocaust, when actually Hitler was in power nearly a decade before he really got a Hitler'ing. The Nazi Party led by Hitler was around since 1920.

 

[generals3]

Saying 'punching Nazis is ok' is treated as worse than saying 'kill all jews/blacks'.

I do have to ask where and when? Because if we take this forum as an example, no one has ever said all jews or blacks should be killed. And I doubt anyone would get away with that. I'd even assume a warning/suspension/ban would follow such a statement. (Meanwhile inciting violence against Nazis seems to be ok with the rules)

People questioning calls for violence towards people who are defined as "Nazis" doesn't suggest calls to eradicate certain races would go unquestioned. And mind you that inciting violence against Nazis would probably not be challenged as much if "Nazis" wasn't used to label anyone "too right wing in my opinion" so often.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

I also think most people think Hitler happened over night, that it was like, Day 1: Hitler becomes leader, Day 2: Holocaust, when actually Hitler was in power nearly a decade before he really got a Hitler'ing. The Nazi Party led by Hitler was around since 1920.

Hitler became Chancellor in January 1933, in February 1933 he issued the Reichstag Fire Decree which suspended a ton of civil rights, including free speech, freedom of press and habeas corpus. the NSDAP got full legislative power in March 1933 via the Enabling Act, which allowed the Cabinet to pass laws without a majority vote in the Reichstag. In March 1933 Dachau, the first Nazi concentration camp, was founded to intern the political opposition to the NSDAP. In April 1933 the Boycott of Jewish Business took effect and the Civil Service Law was passed, which forced Jewish people working in the civic administration of Germany to retire. In 1935 the Nuremberg Laws were passed, which were the laws that would later drive most anti-Semitic actions of Nazi-Germany. Around that time the first Jewish people and other "undesirables" were sent to concentration camps.

Hitler and the NSDAP had been in power for about four weeks when they struck the first major blow to the democratic institutions of Germany. They wasted no time at all and had effectively laid the groundwork for both WW2 and the Holocaust by mid-1935, 2,5 years after they seized power. So really, if you want to use the speed of take over as an argument, then comparing the Republican Party of today with the NSDAP really is Goodwin's Law. They are far too inept (and probably unwilling) to emulate the speed and ferocity with which the NSDAP repressed vast swathes of the German population and made political opposition illegal.

 

[Saelune]

Saying 'punching Nazis is ok' is treated as worse than saying 'kill all jews/blacks'.

I do have to ask where and when? Because if we take this forum as an example, no one has ever said all jews or blacks should be killed. And I doubt anyone would get away with that. I'd even assume a warning/suspension/ban would follow such a statement. (Meanwhile inciting violence against Nazis seems to be ok with the rules)

People questioning calls for violence towards people who are defined as "Nazis" doesn't suggest calls to eradicate certain races would go unquestioned. And mind you that inciting violence against Nazis would probably not be challenged as much if "Nazis" wasn't used to label anyone "too right wing in my opinion" so often.

Every time anyone comes to the defense of Nazis and condemns me for being so inconsiderate of their views and situations.


You're literally in a topic about literal Nazis literally attacking a gay pride parade where I literally got criticized for 'Godwin's Law'.


It is pretty clear to me at this point that people just dont like me criticizing Nazis.

 

[Saelune]

I also think most people think Hitler happened over night, that it was like, Day 1: Hitler becomes leader, Day 2: Holocaust, when actually Hitler was in power nearly a decade before he really got a Hitler'ing. The Nazi Party led by Hitler was around since 1920.

Hitler became Chancellor in January 1933, in February 1933 he issued the Reichstag Fire Decree which suspended a ton of civil rights, including free speech, freedom of press and habeas corpus. the NSDAP got full legislative power in March 1933 via the Enabling Act, which allowed the Cabinet to pass laws without a majority vote in the Reichstag. In March 1933 Dachau, the first Nazi concentration camp, was founded to intern the political opposition to the NSDAP. In April 1933 the Boycott of Jewish Business took effect and the Civil Service Law was passed, which forced Jewish people working in the civic administration of Germany to retire. In 1935 the Nuremberg Laws were passed, which were the laws that would later drive most anti-Semitic actions of Nazi-Germany. Around that time the first Jewish people and other "undesirables" were sent to concentration camps.

Hitler and the NSDAP had been in power for about four weeks when they struck the first major blow to the democratic institutions of Germany. They wasted no time at all and had effectively laid the groundwork for both WW2 and the Holocaust by mid-1935, 2,5 years after they seized power. So really, if you want to use the speed of take over as an argument, then comparing the Republican Party of today with the NSDAP really is Goodwin's Law. They are far too inept (and probably unwilling) to emulate the speed and ferocity with which the NSDAP repressed vast swathes of the German population and made political opposition illegal.

Trump's incompetence at taking advantage his absolute power over the Republican Party cannot be used as an acceptable excuse to ignore his intentions. His incompetence and that the US was supposed to prevent people like Trump from turning this country into a fascist state (and ironically, the strength of state powers) is the only reason we aren't building giant gold statues of Trump to replace the Lincoln Memorial, probably by slave immigrant labor who would then be put into MORE internment camps. Not new ones, Trump already has some.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

Trump's incompetence at taking advantage his absolute power over the Republican Party cannot be used as an acceptable excuse to ignore his intentions. His incompetence and that the US was supposed to prevent people like Trump from turning this country into a fascist state (and ironically, the strength of state powers) is the only reason we aren't building giant gold statues of Trump to replace the Lincoln Memorial, probably by slave immigrant labor who would then be put into MORE internment camps. Not new ones, Trump already has some.

But this is a whole other argument to make then "Hitler moved slowed at the start too" which was your original argument. Goal post moving, I think is the term.

 

[Saelune]

Trump's incompetence at taking advantage his absolute power over the Republican Party cannot be used as an acceptable excuse to ignore his intentions. His incompetence and that the US was supposed to prevent people like Trump from turning this country into a fascist state (and ironically, the strength of state powers) is the only reason we aren't building giant gold statues of Trump to replace the Lincoln Memorial, probably by slave immigrant labor who would then be put into MORE internment camps. Not new ones, Trump already has some.

But this is a whole other argument to make then "Hitler moved slowed at the start too" which was your original argument. Goal post moving, I think is the term.

My goal was to point out that Trump is on the same path as Hitler, and that it was not a sudden thing in either case. My goal was to justify the Hitler comparisons.

 

[tstorm823]

Trump's incompetence at taking advantage his absolute power over the Republican Party...

To answer Freddie's eternal question, this is not real life, this is just fantasy.

 

[Shadowstar38]

Hitler comparisons are a cheap tactic tbh. When people employ that, they're really just trying to use the genocide and concentration camps as an easy way to trigger moral outrage without actually having to give solid justifications for their reasoning.

Far as I can remember, like 80% of the country has been accused of being bigots and white supremacists since trump got elected. This is one of the few threads in 3 years where the label actually fits. Congrats i guess. Some people might use this incident to say their doomsaying was right all along. Except these groups have already been around and it's not actually a sign of escalation.

 

[Trunkage]

Hitler comparisons are a cheap tactic tbh. When people employ that, they're really just trying to use the genocide and concentration camps as an easy way to trigger moral outrage without actually having to give solid justifications for their reasoning.

Far as I can remember, like 80% of the country has been accused of being bigots and white supremacists since trump got elected. This is one of the few threads in 3 years where the label actually fits. Congrats i guess. Some people might use this incident to say their doomsaying was right all along. Except these groups have already been around and it's not actually a sign of escalation.

Using this response is more about not wanting to discuss a point, more about trying to silence an opponent, than anything else.

I.e. saying that "using the word Nazi is a cheap tactic" is more about you being Politically Correct than anything else.

 

[Armadox]

(Meanwhile inciting violence against Nazis seems to be ok with the rules)

*Shrugs* This is at it's core supposed to be a video game forum, and I've been shooting Nazi in the face in video games for three decades. (1988's Bionic Commando if I had to pick a starting point.) Because history has decided what they stand for makes them ubiquitous as a universal bad guy. The absolute lowest bar to having villains no one can complain about.

 

[ObsidianJones_v1legacy]

Hitler comparisons are a cheap tactic tbh. When people employ that, they're really just trying to use the genocide and concentration camps as an easy way to trigger moral outrage without actually having to give solid justifications for their reasoning.

Far as I can remember, like 80% of the country has been accused of being bigots and white supremacists since trump got elected. This is one of the few threads in 3 years where the label actually fits. Congrats i guess. Some people might use this incident to say their doomsaying was right all along. Except these groups have already been around and it's not actually a sign of escalation.

So, should we just assume that the rise of Hate Crimes [https://psmag.com/news/hate-crimes-are-on-the-rise-why-do-many-still-go-unreported] that has been climbing steadily over the years to be the actual escalation, and this is just a showing of power?

Because yeah, that seems apt.

 

[Trunkage]

Trump's incompetence at taking advantage his absolute power over the Republican Party...

To answer Freddie's eternal question, this is not real life, this is just fantasy.

What's fantasy here?

Trump has been blocked by his own people from doing illegal things and they get fired. Is that not attempting to gain absolute power? Fire all those you diagree with you

Or are you talking about Trump not being incompetent...

 

[Shadowstar38]

Hitler comparisons are a cheap tactic tbh. When people employ that, they're really just trying to use the genocide and concentration camps as an easy way to trigger moral outrage without actually having to give solid justifications for their reasoning.

Far as I can remember, like 80% of the country has been accused of being bigots and white supremacists since trump got elected. This is one of the few threads in 3 years where the label actually fits. Congrats i guess. Some people might use this incident to say their doomsaying was right all along. Except these groups have already been around and it's not actually a sign of escalation.

Using this response is more about not wanting to discuss a point, more about trying to silence an opponent, than anything else.

I.e. saying that "using the word Nazi is a cheap tactic" is more about you being Politically Correct than anything else.

Feel like that should be made more clear then. Also, not sure what's going on with that second sentence? This doesn't have much to do with political correctness.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

Hitler comparisons are a cheap tactic tbh. When people employ that, they're really just trying to use the genocide and concentration camps as an easy way to trigger moral outrage without actually having to give solid justifications for their reasoning.

Far as I can remember, like 80% of the country has been accused of being bigots and white supremacists since trump got elected. This is one of the few threads in 3 years where the label actually fits. Congrats i guess. Some people might use this incident to say their doomsaying was right all along. Except these groups have already been around and it's not actually a sign of escalation.

I don't think it is usually universally applied to " right wing". When I think of Hitler, I do not immediately go to the most horrific things he was responsible for, I think of how it was allowed to get to that point as being the most dangerous part. That was just allowing his course to play out. The worst part about what happened was the social conditioning of the people toward irrational hatred that allowed for such things to take place. The racism and hatred is what is most commonly associated with Hitler and for good reason. Right wing should not have anything to do with xenophobia and racism, but it currently does and that is part of the problem that should be expunged from the right before it can move forward without the association. Racism and xenophobia should not be recognized as a legitimate political platform and has no place in modern politics. Until they lose the " southern strategy" they cannot lose being associated with what history has taught us where that leads.

And while yes, these groups have been around, every indicator out there has shown us that yes, there is a current escalation. They are growing and increasing in numbers and activity.

*The Southern Poverty Law Center reports a dramatic increase in the number of white nationalist groups in the U.S., from 100 chapters in 2017 to 148 in 2018.

*The Anti-Defamation League reports a 182 percent increase in incidents of the distribution of white supremacist propaganda, and an increase in the number of rallies and demonstrations by white supremacy groups, from 76 in 2017 to 91 in 2018.

*A study by the Center for Strategic and International Studies found the number of terrorist attacks by far-right perpetrators quadrupled in the U.S. between 2016 and 2017, and that far-right attacks in Europe rose 43 percent over the same period. Among those incidents, CSIS states, the rise of attacks by white supremacists and anti-government extremists is "of particular concern."

https://www.factcheck.org/2019/03/the-facts-on-white-nationalism/

The facts support that there is an actual escalation, not just manufactured outrage over past war crimes as you seem to suggest. The outrage should be about the social conditioning of people to target and irrationally oppose members of certain groups being allowed to happen, not ever actually allowing it to get to the point of violence, but we have already been allowing it to get to the point of violence and that is already a serious issue that is long past due needing to be addressed.

 

[Shadowstar38]

So, should we just assume that the rise of Hate Crimes [https://psmag.com/news/hate-crimes-are-on-the-rise-why-do-many-still-go-unreported] that has been climbing steadily over the years to be the actual escalation, and this is just a showing of power?

Because yeah, that seems apt.

This guy knows what's up.

 

[Abomination]

(Meanwhile inciting violence against Nazis seems to be ok with the rules)

*Shrugs* This is at it's core supposed to be a video game forum, and I've been shooting Nazi in the face in video games for three decades. (1988's Bionic Commando if I had to pick a starting point.) Because history has decided what they stand for makes them ubiquitous as a universal bad guy. The absolute lowest bar to having villains no one can complain about.

I am hoping folk have the awareness to recognize there's a difference between a video game character set in the 1940s during a war and a modern, real-life scenario involving fellow citizens.

An interesting point brought up in Nazi Germany's rise to power was the immediate restriction on free speech of those deemed harmful or dangerous to the new regime. I fear the hypocrisy of encouraging people to "punch Nazis" is synonymous with another lovely 1940s slogan "Slap a Jap".

Yes, their message or political affiliation is in opposition towards most democratic systems of government, but democratic ideals are about allowing those with opposing beliefs the right to express them without direct or indirect suppression. Of course, people will be quick to call this "defending Nazis" or being "pro-fascism" when its only a call to not become that which one hates. Don't fight Nazis by using Nazi policy - that's exactly how the Nazis cemented their power in the first place. I certainly do not trust the current administration to use such precedent in a responsible manner. So don't fashion the noose that may be thrown around your own neck.

 

[CaitSeith]

(Meanwhile inciting violence against Nazis seems to be ok with the rules)

*Shrugs* This is at it's core supposed to be a video game forum, and I've been shooting Nazi in the face in video games for three decades. (1988's Bionic Commando if I had to pick a starting point.) Because history has decided what they stand for makes them ubiquitous as a universal bad guy. The absolute lowest bar to having villains no one can complain about.

I am hoping folk have the awareness to recognize there's a difference between a video game character set in the 1940s during a war and a modern, real-life scenario involving fellow citizens.

An interesting point brought up in Nazi Germany's rise to power was the immediate restriction on free speech of those deemed harmful or dangerous to the new regime. I fear the hypocrisy of encouraging people to "punch Nazis" is synonymous with another lovely 1940s slogan "Slap a Jap".

Yes, their message or political affiliation is in opposition towards most democratic systems of government, but democratic ideals are about allowing those with opposing beliefs the right to express them without direct or indirect suppression. Of course, people will be quick to call this "defending Nazis" or being "pro-fascism" when its only a call to not become that which one hates. Don't fight Nazis by using Nazi policy - that's exactly how the Nazis cemented their power in the first place. I certainly do not trust the current administration to use such precedent in a responsible manner. So don't fashion the noose that may be thrown around your own neck.

Another point to bring up about Nazi Germany's rise to power is how frequently they eat breakfast. So many hypocrites fighting Nazis after eating breakfast. Who is the real fascist here!

Out of joke, I'd like first to see you acknowledge the greater amount of Nazi-like policies that the GOP has implemented that are harming people. Then we can talk about how much free speech is a stake.

 

[Armadox]

(Meanwhile inciting violence against Nazis seems to be ok with the rules)

*Shrugs* This is at it's core supposed to be a video game forum, and I've been shooting Nazi in the face in video games for three decades. (1988's Bionic Commando if I had to pick a starting point.) Because history has decided what they stand for makes them ubiquitous as a universal bad guy. The absolute lowest bar to having villains no one can complain about.

I am hoping folk have the awareness to recognize there's a difference between a video game character set in the 1940s during a war and a modern, real-life scenario involving fellow citizens.

An interesting point brought up in Nazi Germany's rise to power was the immediate restriction on free speech of those deemed harmful or dangerous to the new regime. I fear the hypocrisy of encouraging people to "punch Nazis" is synonymous with another lovely 1940s slogan "Slap a Jap".

Yes, their message or political affiliation is in opposition towards most democratic systems of government, but democratic ideals are about allowing those with opposing beliefs the right to express them without direct or indirect suppression. Of course, people will be quick to call this "defending Nazis" or being "pro-fascism" when its only a call to not become that which one hates. Don't fight Nazis by using Nazi policy - that's exactly how the Nazis cemented their power in the first place. I certainly do not trust the current administration to use such precedent in a responsible manner. So don't fashion the noose that may be thrown around your own neck.

Fellow citizens who idolize the ideas of the war criminals from the 1940s that we made video game villains of in the 1980s because they was terrible people. But, hey let's let them speak, gain sympathizers, organize, arm themselves and... peacefully debate them when they march in larger numbers the next time right? The annoying part of this is, is that there is no means that by simply talking over them will do the job, and they have the leverage of violence on their side without the same moral qualms about using it. Would they have shot people at that parade? Absolutely if given the chance, and they think they could get away with it.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/06/09/detroit-man-arrested-lgbtq-triple-homicide/1401406001/

I'm tired of seeing these kinds of news stories.

The first amendment states the Government can't abridge your freedom of speech, but being an actual Nazi has consequences, and nothing says the citizenry has to give them a soapbox in the middle of the commons. I am not The Government, and I have no problem using the common sense to say," They could have been asked to leave because they present an actual threat to the events preceding and can come back later." If you want a middle ground. But I'd prefer if we never had another "Unite the Right" rally or equivalent as long as I live.