[Politics] Nazis Attack LGBT Pride Parade
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People seem to forget in their hurry to call it out, but Godwin's Law is not about just mentioning Nazis, its about comparisons to Nazis. To properly invoke Godwin's Law someone has to say something like "Oh yeah well you do this thing that Hitler did therefore you're like Hitler!"Kwak said:
That's why you're considered to have lost the argument if you fall into the trap; because you're not actually using logic, you're making a very basic appeal to emotion with no backing. You're resorting to mad troll logic because you've run out of actual arguments to use.
So no, you can't really bring Godwin's Law in when the topic is itself about actual Nazis, because the comparisons are right there
Doesn't that make them WORSE than the original Nazis because they now have all of the information about all of the horrific atrocities that they committed and they want to repeat it and do it themselves, not be forced into it as many of the original people involved? I see the glorification of the horrific crimes committed and the people WANTING to do it themselves as being even more evil because they have the hindsight and ability to see it for what it was. They are jealous they were not there to participate. Their actions are actually far worse now because they have been taught how horrific this was and want to be willing participants rather than being forced to do so at gunpoint. The people prior to WW2 were suffering through the great depression and were desperate and suffering far worse than any of these coddled, entitled, racist assholes we are dealing with in our time now. I think you are giving the people we are dealing with now entirely too much credit. Yes, I do believe people can change, but we also have to be realistic about who we are dealing with and their actual words and actions they are taking now. every single one of these men were taught about the atrocities of ww2 in school here. They understand what happened and want to do those things to people in this time as well and that cannot be brushed aside and their sadism excused. They do not deserve your willingness to give them the benefit of the doubt, that should be reserved for those who would not take pleasure in harming you and your family.TheIronRuler said:
I also disagree that many of those who support Trump are not racists, I know many of them are, and that was the reason they supported Trump over other candidates in the Primaries. Trump represented gluttony, not one who was going to help the poor and middle class. He has never been one to help the poor and middle class and in his books prior to running for President he admittedly targeted those struggling rather than helped them as part of his business plan. Everything he has done in his life prior to running for president was against and harmful to the poor and middle class, not helping them so they have no reason to think he would help them. You would have to be some kind of gullible to believe eh was doing anything for those struggling so I have difficulty thinking that people are really that stupid. Instead, they likely valued their racism over those coming to the table with actual plans to help them, that was why they voted against their own self interest.
A) I never actually labelled anyone as a Nazi. I clarified the involvement of Godwin's Law when Nazi's are involved, but nowhere did I "cry Hitler" as you put it. So your accusations are somewhat unfounded here my dudeTheIronRuler said:
B) If you do want to get in to specifics though, this particular topic that we are posting in is about people going around wearing Nazi armbands, throwing Nazi salutes, promoting the Nazi cause and naming themselves after the Nazis. So I'm pretty sure that, yes, we are in fact dealing with actual Nazis. Doesn't take a detective to figure that out
Not asking what others did or didn't do. Asking if you would like to be treated that way; if not, don't do it. That's how the golden rule works, pay attention to it. Eye for an eye makes the whole world blind and all that.Dreiko said:
Or how about when people tried to tell me I was exaggerating on what Trump would do in office and how there was No way people would just allow him to do these things even though I told them he would just fire whoever didn't do what he told them to do and replace them with someone who would... Now that he has been getting rid of anyone who would stop him from doing whatever he wants and has an attorney General willing to break the law to defend him at all costs, how exactly do they propose stopping him when they can't even get the justice department to arrest him if found guilty or impeached? Barr, who is in contempt himself, is in charge of the justice department so who exactly is going to remove him from office when he has already fired everyone that would uphold the law?trunkage said:
I REALLY wanted to be wrong about him tbh, the fact that Trump is in charge of the Military and fired all his top generals to stop him from making a mess while he becomes more belligerent by the day is frightening to say the least.
They probably were though.Leg End said:
The Nazis came to power in Germany in 1933. The defence of Berlin was in 1945. An entire generation of German children grew up under Nazi rule, constantly exposed to the propaganda and ideological control of a system which was designed in a calculated fashion to instil them with Nazi values. Eugenics (meaning Nazi racial theory) became a core part of the curriculum taught to children in school. Before Jewish children were banned from education in 1938, children were encouraged to humiliate and abuse Jewish classmates. Outside of class, membership of Nazi youth organizations became compulsory for all "Aryan" children in 1936. One of the explicit goals of youth organizations was to encourage loyalty to the state over traditional social bonds. Children were encouraged to denounce their teachers, family members and neighbours for ideological crimes. Many people of this generation have been fairly open about the effect this ideological indoctrination had on them.
Here are some more Nazi child soldiers. They are not conscripts. They are enlisted soldiers of the 12th SS Panzer Division "Hitlerjugend" (note their SS patches). The 12th division was formed before the normandy landings, with the majority of its enlisted soldiers being boys under 18, like these kids (although this photo was taken later). These were mostly willing combatants who enlisted themselves. They had been raised to be willing to fight for Nazi ideology, and so they did. Although the Volkssturm, the conscript army formed later which also employed many child soldiers, were conscripts, do not assume they were unwilling conscripts. They were children who had been raised within an ideological system which viewed fighting for the Nazi cause as the ultimate virtue.
Children are not pure innocent creatures whose natural goodness and innocence will win out against the ideological forces of tyranny. They are, in fact, incredibly vulnerable to ideological manipulation. Totalitarian regiemes have intentionally sought to used children as soldiers, torturers and informants precisely because they are so vulnerable to ideological manipulation.
Anyway, the point..
See, by fixating on the idea of the poor innocent child soldiers forced to fight against their will, you're actually dodging the meaningful question of rehabilitation. Many German children of this generation were successfully rehabilitated. Over time, they were able to process what had happened to them and to understand how they had been manipulated. Some, however, could not. Some were never able to square that the society they had grown up in and the way they had been taught to believe was wrong. The liberal idea that rehabilitation is always possible, that all people have some intuitive spark of goodness in them which will naturally come out if they're "educated" or "informed", is nonsense. Children can be Nazis, and some children who were Nazis will never stop being Nazis.
The children you were try to show were almost certainly committed, ideologically motivated Nazis. Even if they weren't, the fact remains that they were doing Nazism just as if they were. They were participating in a regime that murdered tens of millions of people, including children. Saelune's point, which is a valuable point I think, is that the possibility of rehabilitation doesn't absolve people of what they've done, what they've tolerated or what they would be willing to tolerate. It isn't hard to see those who have made their way into extremist ideologies as victims, we're naturally going to want to question how a "normal" person got there. Saelune's point is that it doesn't ultimately matter when you are the victim of those people.
Silvanus hates bullshit, and bullshit is what was being delivered.TheIronRuler said:
Also thanks for proving me right about you. Your views on 'typical leftists' and your embracing of right-wing views. I was right about you just as I am right about so many other things. Thanks for erasing any doubt I had.
The topic is literally about Nazis. Godwin's law is not even a fallacy, it is simply a theorized observation.TheIronRuler said:
[tweet t=https://twitter.com/sfmnemonic/status/896884949634232320] Godwin on the Charlottesville Nazi parade.
Godwin's law is not that comparing people to Nazis is bad or wrong, only that it is a common conclusion to many arguments on the internet, even if the starting topic is irrelevant to Nazis.
That's because up until circa 2016, we could all reasonably agree that fucking Nazis were the epitome of "bad guys." Nowadays, it's to the point where you actually see "But not all Nazis!" comments being posted in genuine seriousness....Saelune said:
This should be open and shut no room maybes just full on nazi's being assclowns at a gay pride parade. Open and shut they can go fuck themselves. Also not the throw salt on the wound but Lunatic dropped all pretenses of trolling a while ago or only so many times you can say "free speech" and gaslight a discussion in the worst faith imaginable.
It's even worse than that.Saelune said:
Godwin's Law is a joke.
As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1 is a valid statement, but it's a meaningless statement if taken seriously because it literally just describes how time works. You may as well say as an online discussion grows longer, the probability of everyone involved being destroyed by vacuum decay approaches 1 and because we haven't clarified what "longer" or "approaches 1" actually means it's still technically valid. The rhetorical point is that people compare things to Hitler too much and inappropriately.
The fallacy which Godwin's Law references is Reductio ad Hitlerum, or more formally an association fallacy whereby an irrelevant association is used to discredit something by comparing it to Hitler or the Nazis. Note that I've bolded the word irrelevant, because that's the actual important bit.
Mike Godwin has always been very clear that the point of "Godwins Law" is not to provide a cover for actual far right policies or activities, or to censor relevant comparison between contemporary political debates and Nazism from the internet, but to make people think twice about the seriousness of such comparisons.
I have compared things in the past to Nazis that I would not do now, because I naively thought we would never let anyone get this close to actually being a second Hitler! I honestly did not think the Republican Party would ever actually get this far this way.evilthecat said:
I also think most people think Hitler happened over night, that it was like, Day 1: Hitler becomes leader, Day 2: Holocaust, when actually Hitler was in power nearly a decade before he really got a Hitler'ing. The Nazi Party led by Hitler was around since 1920.
I do have to ask where and when? Because if we take this forum as an example, no one has ever said all jews or blacks should be killed. And I doubt anyone would get away with that. I'd even assume a warning/suspension/ban would follow such a statement. (Meanwhile inciting violence against Nazis seems to be ok with the rules)Saelune said:
People questioning calls for violence towards people who are defined as "Nazis" doesn't suggest calls to eradicate certain races would go unquestioned. And mind you that inciting violence against Nazis would probably not be challenged as much if "Nazis" wasn't used to label anyone "too right wing in my opinion" so often.
Hitler became Chancellor in January 1933, in February 1933 he issued the Reichstag Fire Decree which suspended a ton of civil rights, including free speech, freedom of press and habeas corpus. the NSDAP got full legislative power in March 1933 via the Enabling Act, which allowed the Cabinet to pass laws without a majority vote in the Reichstag. In March 1933 Dachau, the first Nazi concentration camp, was founded to intern the political opposition to the NSDAP. In April 1933 the Boycott of Jewish Business took effect and the Civil Service Law was passed, which forced Jewish people working in the civic administration of Germany to retire. In 1935 the Nuremberg Laws were passed, which were the laws that would later drive most anti-Semitic actions of Nazi-Germany. Around that time the first Jewish people and other "undesirables" were sent to concentration camps.Saelune said:
Hitler and the NSDAP had been in power for about four weeks when they struck the first major blow to the democratic institutions of Germany. They wasted no time at all and had effectively laid the groundwork for both WW2 and the Holocaust by mid-1935, 2,5 years after they seized power. So really, if you want to use the speed of take over as an argument, then comparing the Republican Party of today with the NSDAP really is Goodwin's Law. They are far too inept (and probably unwilling) to emulate the speed and ferocity with which the NSDAP repressed vast swathes of the German population and made political opposition illegal.
Every time anyone comes to the defense of Nazis and condemns me for being so inconsiderate of their views and situations.generals3 said:
You're literally in a topic about literal Nazis literally attacking a gay pride parade where I literally got criticized for 'Godwin's Law'.
It is pretty clear to me at this point that people just dont like me criticizing Nazis.