[Politics] Nazis Attack LGBT Pride Parade

[Kwak]

we've lost the moral high ground

What's that worth?
An abstract concept that gives you some kind of bragging rights in the afterlife after your martyrdom, versus actually being able to live free and unharassed by hateful wastes of skin?

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

But also you're saying the ends justify the means. I mean, I agree in this case, but I think there is a lot of virtue signaling that never wants to consider the between parts. WW2 ended with violence. There is no way the Nazis were going to be defeated by anything except violence. I do not think that truth has changed.

I am saying the exact opposite: That the ends do not justify the means and that we should never pre-emptively punch anyone, Nazi or otherwise, unless we are absolutely certain that they are an imminent physical threat to us (ie. specific death threat, brandishing a weapon). That's both literal and metaphorical, by the way.

My take away from the events of 1933 to 1945 is that the only way to stop Nazis, or fascists of any kind, is to never give them the time of day. We should never listen to their rhetoric, never compromise or deal with them, always be around to shout them down, counter-protest and generally make their attempts at spewing their vile hatred or making their presence known hard, uncomfortable and contested. But until the day that they specifically target someone ("I know where you live, dyke", coming at you with a weapon), we should never be the ones to escalate to violence first.

There are plenty of things we should be doing, and often are doing, to curb the rise of the alt-right and neo-nazism, chief among them being to institute or enforce laws that makes it illegal for them to protest, march or whatever else they might do in group. As individuals we should never escalate to violence wit them, because they want violence, they are better at violence and the moment we come at them with physical force before they attack us, we've lost the moral high ground of being the people that doesn't want to physically harm or kill our opponents.

Do note that this is my stance on pretty much all interaction with people who might want to do you harm. I volunteered for conscription based on the idea that I absolutely want peace, won't strike first, but will defend my country if someone attacks it. Because you can't claim to want peace or being the gentler person if you're the one instigating violence.

Sadly in the US, people did ignore them so they grew in power and now have political clout. Of course the US also failed to ban their protests and instead encouraged them by protecting them with the police, some of which are members of these organizations. When we have police and military members being leaders of these organizations it can be difficult to find help among law enforcement to curb their behavior. Identity Evropa, for example, was started by members of US military. We have had numerous Neo Nazis and KKK outed as police officers, how many more have not been made public? Those that were discovered were due to their own reckless actions, I would think the more dangerous of them would be also less likely to make such mistakes. When people see the Nazis being the one's protected and promoted by military members and police, it makes it all that more difficult to deter.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

we've lost the moral high ground

What's that worth?
An abstract concept that gives you some kind of bragging rights in the afterlife after your martyrdom, versus actually being able to live free and unharassed by hateful wastes of skin?

This is a philosophical issue but to me that means being able to sleep at night with a clean conscience and not having feelings of guilt associated with betraying a principle you hold to be significant. Martyrdom is something used for tricking people into sacrificing themselves for the good of those who control them and afterlife is a fairy-tale so I don't really care about either of those.

 

[McElroy]

to institute or enforce laws that makes it illegal for them to protest, march or whatever else they might do in group

I'd say let them have their own march or protest. Otherwise Nazis will pick some other event to go to and later any march "open for all" might get transformed into "nazis welcome" in the public eye.

 

[TheIronRuler]

This shouldn't be made illegal by any means. Let this surface, identify the ring-leaders and plan retribution. If you allow this to bubble under your feet you will lose track of the movement.

I regularly play devil's advocate here when "white nationalists" (as if that's a thing, bitter poor whites turning to populism for salvation) gets conflated with nazis. It's more productive to have a dialogue with these people and understand why they are lashing out (hint: It's opium, mechanization and globalization), and maybe even address these issues... These nazis? Break them.

Sadly much of the white nationalist movement in the US is far from poor, more like many are middle class/upper middle class and feel threatened by the thought of being forced to see "other cultures" on a regular basis and see it as a threat to their own. They are offended when they hear someone speaking a foreign language or listening to another culture's music or wearing clothing that is different than their own. One of their biggest fears is that their children will grow up and want to live a different lifestyle than theirs or marry someone outside their race or culture. They see this a threat to the continuation of their lifestyle and culture and are willing to resort to violence to prevent it from happening. I sent you a list from the SPLC previously, if you had researched the white nationalists groups on that list, you would see most of them are far from being the poor in the US, but rather they are the one's trying to uphold the status quo. White nationalist groups like identity evropa are just Nazi's by a different name celebrating admiring and promoting Nazis and their beliefs, and they are most definitely a " thing" in the US right now and sadly have been growing in membership and popularity. They have been trying to push into the mainstream and sadly, yes have been more successful than we previously thought possible.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2019/03/20/fact-check-truth-white-nationalism/3226378002/

https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/419659-texas-gop-platform-committee-member-damn-right-im-a-white

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I sped through the articles. I didn't find what I was looking for ('white nationalists' being mostly from middle-class). I don't see them all as you do, and I think many are in a bad situation and turning to populism because that's the only thing that would help them at this point.
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The opioid epidemic is a name for the rampant consumption of drugs - prescribed or obtained via the black market - which are produced from the poppy plant. Opium is one of the first iterations of the drug. Modern drugs are distilled differently (you can produce heroin and codein from poppy, for example) and their compounds can differ from Opium (there are similar synthetics, for example Pethidine and Fentanyl), but it's essentially the same damn thing... it's highly addictive.

If I wanted to be a total pedant (and I don't often get a chance to put my profession to use on forums), opium is a mixture of about 30 alkaloids (not all of which are addictive, or have the same pharmacological activity) of which morphine is the most relevant. Morphine was isolated from opium about 2 centuries ago; codeine is another natural opioid from the opium poppy.

Heroin (diamorphine in medicine) is a "semi-synthetic", it can be easily synthesied from some opiates, but is not natural to the poppy. As you say, pethidine, fentanyl and others are fully synthetic and have a very different chemical structure. Although all medical opioids including morphine and codeine are made synthetically these days. Drugs of abuse, not necessarily.

The history of opioids is tragically hilarious. Opium and distillations of it such as laudanum were quickly recognised as addictive. Morphine was isolated by Friedrich Seturner in the hope that it could provide the medical benefits without being addictive; Seturner ended up addicted to morphine. Heroin was likewise synthesised in the hope it would provide painkilling and antitussive action without being addictive, and we know how that turned out. Later synthetics were developed in the same hope... all in vain. The type of proteins in your body (opioid receptors) that opioids act on to generate analgesia are exactly the same ones that cause addiction, and it is to all intents impossible to separate opioid analgesia from addiction risk. The current US opioid crisis is a lot about some pretty foul dealings by some pharmaceutical companies, and the ridiculous claim that certain opioid slow release formulations would not be addictive, in total defiance of everything we know about biology.

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Thanks, that was a good read. What is your profession?
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It is bizarre the free speech advocates never defend ISIS right to promote their ideology in public. Both are terrorists. Both indulge in discriminatory murder as a defining tentpole of their beliefs. Yet only the Nazis are accepted. Bizarre.

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Do they, though? Do they have the opportunity, even? Do you even realize who wrong that comparison is, and how it only serves to reinforce your beliefs while being plain incorrect?
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They're not my friends. Cool it with the personal attacks.

Defending Nazis is a personal attack against all Jews, Blacks and LGBT people.

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I'm not personally attacked. They've been on the news even in my own country, having recorded pissing on our flag. You've read what's my opinion on them.
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Oh no, a couple of assholes attacked a pride parade.
Let's round up every white guy and accuse them of being war criminals.

Strange, when people within the BLM movement was destroying shops, shooting people and generally being a complete load of assholes, we heard constantly that a few bad examples don't override the entire movement.

I guess the same doesn't apply when it's white people asking to uphold their freedom of speech. Seems a little racist to me.

Fuck you on about, the "White People" in this scenario are literal fucking Nazi. You are white knighting literal fucking Nazi. Nazi that showed up with weapons prepared. Showed up with a fucking lawyer and cameras in hopes that they could push and bully and threaten, knowing they'd be fed lines after the violence broke out to keep themselves out of jail. No one's fucking trying to round up all white people, but they sure as shit can have an issue with people who affiliate with actual god damn war criminals. A few bad examples don't override the entire movement. The fucking movement is god damn NAZIS.

Walk away, Clown Shoes. This is fucking armed Nazis coming to attack a pride parade. This isn't about freedom of speech if they're plan was at best to get punched in the face and gleefully shoot someone.

Hell's wrong with you?

I find I get in more trouble pointing out the bigots than the bigots do saying bigoted things, or I would say exactly what is wrong with them.

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If you had gotten in trouble you'd have been banned a long time ago.
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You conflate 'nazis' with other nationalist and populist groups which only serves to drive them towards the nazi cause.

You are laying a nasty Catch-22. If those groups have all the same goals and ideologies than the nazi, then they are just nazis with a different color. If all that was it needed for them to join is Saelune's accusations, then they were just waiting for an excuse (and nazis will just make up one for them when there is none). And a pretty big issue is that those groups do no effort to keep nazis away from them, which ends up in radicalizing their members, no matter what the left does.

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Yes. If only Saelune would stop accusing them, there will be no more nazis.

I sense hostility because I ask to treat these people as reasonable humans, that can be convinced to stop what they're doing... and understand their mistakes. If you read my earlier posts, you could understand better my suggestions.

You seem to have trouble with reading comprehension when it comes to my posts. Maybe it's just because English isn't my first language, I don't know. Could be because you refuse to actually try to understand my points at all.

They are not reasonable humans, they are Nazis. If they were reasonable humans, they would not be Nazis. They are literally supporting a objectively genocidal movement that caused a World War that killed millions of people. Over 16 million was just them rounding up people for being Jewish, LGBT, and infirm, putting them in torture/extermination camps, and torturing and exterminating them.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e5/Eines_von_3_Massengr?bern_in_Bergen-Belsen%2C_so_wie_es_von_den_Befreiern_vorgefunden_wurde%2C_1945.jpg

That is why Nazis are not to be reasoned with, for they are beyond reason.

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Broken link, and from reading the url, you had better not linked me to something about Bergen-Belsen. I feel like you have no idea who you are talking to when you address me.

You are not a nazi, yet you are beyond reason.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

This shouldn't be made illegal by any means. Let this surface, identify the ring-leaders and plan retribution. If you allow this to bubble under your feet you will lose track of the movement.

I regularly play devil's advocate here when "white nationalists" (as if that's a thing, bitter poor whites turning to populism for salvation) gets conflated with nazis. It's more productive to have a dialogue with these people and understand why they are lashing out (hint: It's opium, mechanization and globalization), and maybe even address these issues... These nazis? Break them.

Sadly much of the white nationalist movement in the US is far from poor, more like many are middle class/upper middle class and feel threatened by the thought of being forced to see "other cultures" on a regular basis and see it as a threat to their own. They are offended when they hear someone speaking a foreign language or listening to another culture's music or wearing clothing that is different than their own. One of their biggest fears is that their children will grow up and want to live a different lifestyle than theirs or marry someone outside their race or culture. They see this a threat to the continuation of their lifestyle and culture and are willing to resort to violence to prevent it from happening. I sent you a list from the SPLC previously, if you had researched the white nationalists groups on that list, you would see most of them are far from being the poor in the US, but rather they are the one's trying to uphold the status quo. White nationalist groups like identity evropa are just Nazi's by a different name celebrating admiring and promoting Nazis and their beliefs, and they are most definitely a " thing" in the US right now and sadly have been growing in membership and popularity. They have been trying to push into the mainstream and sadly, yes have been more successful than we previously thought possible.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2019/03/20/fact-check-truth-white-nationalism/3226378002/

https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/419659-texas-gop-platform-committee-member-damn-right-im-a-white

.
I sped through the articles. I didn't find what I was looking for ('white nationalists' being mostly from middle-class). I don't see them all as you do, and I think many are in a bad situation and turning to populism because that's the only thing that would help them at this point.

You are correct, you do not see them here as I do. I have seen them marching through the streets and protesting at the court house here where I live. I have to listen to what people are saying standing in line at the market. I also have seen that many of those doing so live in these neighborhoods:

https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-search/Buffalo-Creek_Rockwall_TX
https://www.redfin.com/city/30856/TX/Heath/luxury-homes
https://www.zillow.com/mclendon-chisholm-tx/

When this happens in your neighborhood, you tend to know a bit more about the people involved. The people involved here are more likely to suffer from "affluenza" than poverty. They also often send their children to " pray away the gay camps" and only allow their children to associate with people of their own race and culture. I don't think many are as bad off as you seem to think they are. If these organizations were made up of the poor, they would not be as well funded as they currently are.

EDIT: It isn't just here either:
https://pressprogress.ca/meet-the-wealthy-toronto-elites-who-funded-white-nationalist-faith-goldys-campaign-for-mayor/
https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/group/proud-boys
https://thinkprogress.org/these-wealthy-institutions-are-quietly-financing-white-nationalism-5313db89b185/

Wealthy racists are not a new thing btw, the south was founded by wealthy racist landowners. Not much has changed in that regard.

 

[bluegate]

we've lost the moral high ground

What's that worth?
An abstract concept that gives you some kind of bragging rights in the afterlife after your martyrdom, versus actually being able to live free and unharassed by hateful wastes of skin?

This is a philosophical issue but to me that means being able to sleep at night with a clean conscience and not having feelings of guilt associated with betraying a principle you hold to be significant. Martyrdom is something used for tricking people into sacrificing themselves for the good of those who control them and afterlife is a fairy-tale so I don't really care about either of those.

You sleep well at night knowing that nazi's are allowed to spread their lunatic ideas and infect other people with it?

Freedom of speech and being non violent only go that far, there's a point where you have to look back and think; gee wizz, is it really worth it to have people running around advocating genocide in our society?

Americans used to have a spine, like when they strung up nazi's with ropes and let them hang to die at Neurenberg.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

What's that worth?
An abstract concept that gives you some kind of bragging rights in the afterlife after your martyrdom, versus actually being able to live free and unharassed by hateful wastes of skin?

To me personally? A lot. I strive hard not to be a hypocrite and if I say it is bad when Nazis advocate hurting people, I can't really go around advocating hurting Nazis, can I? Because if I do that then what is the difference between me and a Nazi, aside from my choice of target?

If there is to be any legitimacy to a claim that Nazis are scum for advocating hurting and killing people they don't like (and there is a lot of legitimacy to such an argument on its own), then those that make that claim must also ensure that they don't advocate hurting or killing people they don't like, such as Nazis. Otherwise they are essentially saying that their particular brand of violence is more righteous and just, which is exactly how violent, oppressive regimes and revolutionaries have justified their violence historically.

 

[Armadox]

What's that worth?
An abstract concept that gives you some kind of bragging rights in the afterlife after your martyrdom, versus actually being able to live free and unharassed by hateful wastes of skin?

To me personally? A lot. I strive hard not to be a hypocrite and if I say it is bad when Nazis advocate hurting people, I can't really go around advocating hurting Nazis, can I? Because if I do that then what is the difference between me and a Nazi, aside from my choice of target?

If there is to be any legitimacy to a claim that Nazis are scum for advocating hurting and killing people they don't like (and there is a lot of legitimacy to such an argument on its own), then those that make that claim must also ensure that they don't advocate hurting or killing people they don't like, such as Nazis. Otherwise they are essentially saying that their particular brand of violence is more righteous and just, which is exactly how violent, oppressive regimes and revolutionaries have justified their violence historically.

Pffft, bullshit. That's like saying punching your step-dad in the face is never justified just because it puts you on the same level as they are while they beat your little brother. It's not the violence that's the issue, it's the target. Violence can be defensive, and can be the answer if it means protecting those who can't. It's about looking at the situation and saying "Am I punching down?" And no, you're not punching down on the helpless fucking Nazi.

You don't get rid of a roach infestation by waiting it out. And while you can't get rid of nazi ideology, you can sure as shit break them up and keep them from organizing in public at events where their only purpose for being there is to cause death. To strike fear. To be a threat to that group.

The longer this is left unchecked, the more normalized it will become, and the braver they will be to push this further.

 

[WhiteFangofWhoa]

Nazis are bad and should be arrested and sentenced harshly as an example to all who would parrot their ideology.

That is all.

Sadly, I saw the victim blaming for this start before even learning what exactly happened.

 

[Abomination]

What action do you think should be taken to prevent another "Hitler" from coming to power? Some political beliefs are not just " abhorrent" but dangerous if allowed to gain traction. Without intervention, we have seen what will happen when these things are left unchecked. We have learned through past actions that even the most dangerous of people and beliefs can become extremely popular given the right mixture of propaganda and circumstance. Taking no action means allowing atrocities to happen. If they take over the agencies enforcing the law, they can legally inflict harm upon others. If they take control of making the laws, they can pass laws to violently harm others. Doing nothing to prevent that from happening before they are able to take control over the very institutions and organizations that are responsible for creating and enforcing the laws means you are willing to allow it to happen rather than doing everything possible top prevent history from repeating itself.

When their political beliefs are to take over the institutions so they can inflict legal violence upon others, how is that not just as dangerous, if not more dangerous than inflicting violence upon those in front of them at the moment? Them refraining from violence until they have seized the institutions to be able to carry out their objective isn't somehow a better idea here. How should this be addressed when it is becoming popular? What about when it becomes a majority opinion due to nothing being done to prevent it?

Presently it is not popular, they are a tiny minority of people. Enacting "get them first" laws is also a terrifying precedent.

You mentioned that such beliefs can become very popular with the right mixture of propaganda and circumstance. Prevent the circumstance above all. The Nazi party was born from a disenfranchised people who saw the only way to improve their lot was through the employment of violence.

If you make being a Nazi a literal crime, since legal means are denied to them in order to express their discontent or opinion, the pressure needs to be released elsewhere. One of the first pieces of legislation the Nazi party needed to be successful was for the violent suppression of opposing ideologies to be acceptable. Don't become that which you fear. Ensure the law is followed, arrest them not for their thoughts but for their actions.

 

[Schadrach]

We can hide behind formality, but when Detriot Cops say that via their intelligence sources, that MSN came with the express desire to incite violence [https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/detroit-chief-neo-nazis-sought-gay-pride-event-63614966], logical people realize that they are playing a child's game akin to a little child goading his older sibling on into a physical altercation. Hoping to get one good shot in before welling up with tears so Mom will punish the older sibling later.

If the goal was just to provoke lefties into attacking them, wouldn't it have been simpler to just go to Berkeley, CA and just speak their minds?

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

What action do you think should be taken to prevent another "Hitler" from coming to power? Some political beliefs are not just " abhorrent" but dangerous if allowed to gain traction. Without intervention, we have seen what will happen when these things are left unchecked. We have learned through past actions that even the most dangerous of people and beliefs can become extremely popular given the right mixture of propaganda and circumstance. Taking no action means allowing atrocities to happen. If they take over the agencies enforcing the law, they can legally inflict harm upon others. If they take control of making the laws, they can pass laws to violently harm others. Doing nothing to prevent that from happening before they are able to take control over the very institutions and organizations that are responsible for creating and enforcing the laws means you are willing to allow it to happen rather than doing everything possible top prevent history from repeating itself.

When their political beliefs are to take over the institutions so they can inflict legal violence upon others, how is that not just as dangerous, if not more dangerous than inflicting violence upon those in front of them at the moment? Them refraining from violence until they have seized the institutions to be able to carry out their objective isn't somehow a better idea here. How should this be addressed when it is becoming popular? What about when it becomes a majority opinion due to nothing being done to prevent it?

Presently it is not popular, they are a tiny minority of people. Enacting "get them first" laws is also a terrifying precedent.

You mentioned that such beliefs can become very popular with the right mixture of propaganda and circumstance. Prevent the circumstance above all. The Nazi party was born from a disenfranchised people who saw the only way to improve their lot was through the employment of violence.

If you make being a Nazi a literal crime, since legal means are denied to them in order to express their discontent or opinion, the pressure needs to be released elsewhere. One of the first pieces of legislation the Nazi party needed to be successful was for the violent suppression of opposing ideologies to be acceptable. Don't become that which you fear. Ensure the law is followed, arrest them not for their thoughts but for their actions.

It isn't " get them first" to set an acceptable standard for society. We outlaw screaming fire in a theater and Bomb in an airport because to say such things causes people to get hurt and it is deemed harmful to society. Under the fighting words doctrine it was determines that screaming "Whore" and "Jezebel" at women going to a beach was also not protected speech. We have outlaw certain behavior because it has been determined that such behavior is harmful to society. It has been repeatedly proven throughout our long history that the racism, hatred, violence, genocide that has been promoted by Nazis and white nationalists is extremely harmful to society, even moreso than yelling "fire" in a theater and Bomb in an airport. This being proven more harmful than all of these other speech restrictions combined alone should be grounds for banning the promotion of such things.

What pressure needs to be released somewhere? The pressure to blame other races and cultures for anything and everything they can imagine? The violence and hatred they have for others? No, the "pressure" does not need to be released, we need to address the actual cause of problems and not allow the ignorant scapegoating to continue unchecked. Instead we need to teach people the truth and correct the record rather than continue to allow people to promote hatred and ignorance and fill people's heads full of bile. Why would they need to allow for the public promotion, organization and mobilization of terrorists? This isn't about oppressing "opposing ideologies" calling for genocide and violence against innocent people has no place in a free society because it exists solely to deprive others of their right to exist in that society.

You are not "becoming that which you fear" by setting a standard of what is and is not harmful to society as a whole. That is why we have laws against inciting violence, fighting words, assault, theft and murder as well. This is no different. Nazism isn't a " political ideology" that should be respected, it is the mindless promotion of hatred and violence against people and serves no benefit to society, only harm.

 

[TheIronRuler]

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You are correct, you do not see them here as I do. I have seen them marching through the streets and protesting at the court house here where I live. I have to listen to what people are saying standing in line at the market. I also have seen that many of those doing so live in these neighborhoods:

https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-search/Buffalo-Creek_Rockwall_TX
https://www.redfin.com/city/30856/TX/Heath/luxury-homes
https://www.zillow.com/mclendon-chisholm-tx/

When this happens in your neighborhood, you tend to know a bit more about the people involved. The people involved here are more likely to suffer from "affluenza" than poverty. They also often send their children to " pray away the gay camps" and only allow their children to associate with people of their own race and culture. I don't think many are as bad off as you seem to think they are. If these organizations were made up of the poor, they would not be as well funded as they currently are.

EDIT: It isn't just here either:
https://pressprogress.ca/meet-the-wealthy-toronto-elites-who-funded-white-nationalist-faith-goldys-campaign-for-mayor/
https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/group/proud-boys
https://thinkprogress.org/these-wealthy-institutions-are-quietly-financing-white-nationalism-5313db89b185/

Wealthy racists are not a new thing btw, the south was founded by wealthy racist landowners. Not much has changed in that regard.

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I know a little about the plantation system in the south and how the land-owning, slave-owning elite perpetuated this racial divide to justify their exploitation of the slaves and simultaneously take care of the unrest of the poor whites by directing it towards blacks, and away from their real masters. I can understand how the same is happening, which is why I've said before and I'll stress again - those people who are pushed to these ideology by circumstance can be saved, they can be redeemed, as long as the ringleaders are addressed. Clumping them all together, without any nuance to their situation, writes off many people whose minds are not broken beyond repaid and can be rehabilitated. The same way prisoners can be rehabilitated from their negative behaviors, some of those people can be redeemed and given a second chance.

I believe you, and I often try to argue not against you, but argue that you do not see the entire picture from your angle.

I got called a nazi apologist, even a supporter, in a different thread. I always doubt whether or not the people who attack me understand who I am.

 

[Saelune]

But also you're saying the ends justify the means. I mean, I agree in this case, but I think there is a lot of virtue signaling that never wants to consider the between parts. WW2 ended with violence. There is no way the Nazis were going to be defeated by anything except violence. I do not think that truth has changed.

I am saying the exact opposite: That the ends do not justify the means and that we should never pre-emptively punch anyone, Nazi or otherwise, unless we are absolutely certain that they are an imminent physical threat to us (ie. specific death threat, brandishing a weapon). That's both literal and metaphorical, by the way.

My take away from the events of 1933 to 1945 is that the only way to stop Nazis, or fascists of any kind, is to never give them the time of day. We should never listen to their rhetoric, never compromise or deal with them, always be around to shout them down, counter-protest and generally make their attempts at spewing their vile hatred or making their presence known hard, uncomfortable and contested. But until the day that they specifically target someone ("I know where you live, dyke", coming at you with a weapon), we should never be the ones to escalate to violence first.

There are plenty of things we should be doing, and often are doing, to curb the rise of the alt-right and neo-nazism, chief among them being to institute or enforce laws that makes it illegal for them to protest, march or whatever else they might do in group. As individuals we should never escalate to violence wit them, because they want violence, they are better at violence and the moment we come at them with physical force before they attack us, we've lost the moral high ground of being the people that doesn't want to physically harm or kill our opponents.

Do note that this is my stance on pretty much all interaction with people who might want to do you harm. I volunteered for conscription based on the idea that I absolutely want peace, won't strike first, but will defend my country if someone attacks it. Because you can't claim to want peace or being the gentler person if you're the one instigating violence.

Oh please. Ignore them? Really? That's just stupid. This is not literally a school yard bully, that was the leader of a quickly rising super power who had a military and a desire to use it. Ignoring them is EXACTLY why they were able to do what they did.

What the world should have done was kicked Hitler's ass the second they knew his intentions. The reason they didn't was because the whole world is bigoted and no one cared about the Jews or really anyone but their own kind.

If you dont want the people being bullied to resort to beating up their bully, then you need to stop the bully first. You clearly dont want to do that. At best you offer 'thoughts and prayers' and that is never helpful.

 

[Saelune]

What's that worth?
An abstract concept that gives you some kind of bragging rights in the afterlife after your martyrdom, versus actually being able to live free and unharassed by hateful wastes of skin?

To me personally? A lot. I strive hard not to be a hypocrite and if I say it is bad when Nazis advocate hurting people, I can't really go around advocating hurting Nazis, can I? Because if I do that then what is the difference between me and a Nazi, aside from my choice of target?

If there is to be any legitimacy to a claim that Nazis are scum for advocating hurting and killing people they don't like (and there is a lot of legitimacy to such an argument on its own), then those that make that claim must also ensure that they don't advocate hurting or killing people they don't like, such as Nazis. Otherwise they are essentially saying that their particular brand of violence is more righteous and just, which is exactly how violent, oppressive regimes and revolutionaries have justified their violence historically.

You can change your views to better fit reality. I don't think violence is never the answer. I think violence against people who do not deserve it is wrong. I do not think self-defense is wrong though, against people who want to kill you or violate you for example. If someone tries to mug or rape you, you should be allowed to defend yourself, even if it ends with your attacker dead. People who march advocating the genocide of your kind just for having a skin color or sexuality you had no choice in are always attackers.

Nazis can just stop being Nazis whenever they want. Nazis have proven they have no place in a just society. Your logic is flawed.

 

[Saelune]

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They're not my friends. Cool it with the personal attacks.

Defending Nazis is a personal attack against all Jews, Blacks and LGBT people.

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I'm not personally attacked. They've been on the news even in my own country, having recorded pissing on our flag. You've read what's my opinion on them.
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Oh no, a couple of assholes attacked a pride parade.
Let's round up every white guy and accuse them of being war criminals.

Strange, when people within the BLM movement was destroying shops, shooting people and generally being a complete load of assholes, we heard constantly that a few bad examples don't override the entire movement.

I guess the same doesn't apply when it's white people asking to uphold their freedom of speech. Seems a little racist to me.

Fuck you on about, the "White People" in this scenario are literal fucking Nazi. You are white knighting literal fucking Nazi. Nazi that showed up with weapons prepared. Showed up with a fucking lawyer and cameras in hopes that they could push and bully and threaten, knowing they'd be fed lines after the violence broke out to keep themselves out of jail. No one's fucking trying to round up all white people, but they sure as shit can have an issue with people who affiliate with actual god damn war criminals. A few bad examples don't override the entire movement. The fucking movement is god damn NAZIS.

Walk away, Clown Shoes. This is fucking armed Nazis coming to attack a pride parade. This isn't about freedom of speech if they're plan was at best to get punched in the face and gleefully shoot someone.

Hell's wrong with you?

I find I get in more trouble pointing out the bigots than the bigots do saying bigoted things, or I would say exactly what is wrong with them.

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If you had gotten in trouble you'd have been banned a long time ago.
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You conflate 'nazis' with other nationalist and populist groups which only serves to drive them towards the nazi cause.

You are laying a nasty Catch-22. If those groups have all the same goals and ideologies than the nazi, then they are just nazis with a different color. If all that was it needed for them to join is Saelune's accusations, then they were just waiting for an excuse (and nazis will just make up one for them when there is none). And a pretty big issue is that those groups do no effort to keep nazis away from them, which ends up in radicalizing their members, no matter what the left does.

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Yes. If only Saelune would stop accusing them, there will be no more nazis.

I sense hostility because I ask to treat these people as reasonable humans, that can be convinced to stop what they're doing... and understand their mistakes. If you read my earlier posts, you could understand better my suggestions.

You seem to have trouble with reading comprehension when it comes to my posts. Maybe it's just because English isn't my first language, I don't know. Could be because you refuse to actually try to understand my points at all.

They are not reasonable humans, they are Nazis. If they were reasonable humans, they would not be Nazis. They are literally supporting a objectively genocidal movement that caused a World War that killed millions of people. Over 16 million was just them rounding up people for being Jewish, LGBT, and infirm, putting them in torture/extermination camps, and torturing and exterminating them.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e5/Eines_von_3_Massengr?bern_in_Bergen-Belsen%2C_so_wie_es_von_den_Befreiern_vorgefunden_wurde%2C_1945.jpg

That is why Nazis are not to be reasoned with, for they are beyond reason.

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Broken link, and from reading the url, you had better not linked me to something about Bergen-Belsen. I feel like you have no idea who you are talking to when you address me.

You are not a nazi, yet you are beyond reason.

I am personally attacked. Your opinion on them is a bad one.

I have learned to bite my tongue, even if you don't realize that. But I have far more warnings that I deserve to have.

It was a picture of a mass grave of Nazi victims. Nazis have lost any right to exist, due to their actions in the 1940's. They are terrorists, plain and simple.


Reason is thinking that the most villianous group in mdern history is villanous. They literally are the standard for 'evil fascist organization'. When people make fiction and want you to know who the bad guys are, they make them some form of Nazi.

Or are you unfamiliar with Star Wars?

 

[TheIronRuler]

.I am personally attacked. Your opinion on them is a bad one.

I have learned to bite my tongue, even if you don't realize that. But I have far more warnings that I deserve to have.

It was a picture of a mass grave of Nazi victims. Nazis have lost any right to exist, due to their actions in the 1940's. They are terrorists, plain and simple.


Reason is thinking that the most villianous group in mdern history is villanous. They literally are the standard for 'evil fascist organization'. When people make fiction and want you to know who the bad guys are, they make them some form of Nazi.

Or are you unfamiliar with Star Wars?

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Do you know who I am?

I do not attribute the actions of the Germans on my people and the peoples of the world to the detached neo-nazis that parrot their beliefs in your country. The comparisons are in bad taste, as I have repeatedly told you before. Treat them with respect to their beliefs and actions. They have done, plan to do, and dream of doing awful and horrible things. Some of them are the very same things they idolize the German Nazis for doing (that young white man, who decided to attack a synagogue during Passover dinner, killing a women and injuring 3 others). It should be attributed to the movement, not the actions of those they idolize, some 80 years ago.

 

[CaitSeith]

What's that worth?
An abstract concept that gives you some kind of bragging rights in the afterlife after your martyrdom, versus actually being able to live free and unharassed by hateful wastes of skin?

To me personally? A lot. I strive hard not to be a hypocrite and if I say it is bad when Nazis advocate hurting people, I can't really go around advocating hurting Nazis, can I? Because if I do that then what is the difference between me and a Nazi, aside from my choice of target?

If all that Nazis wanted was to punch people, that wouldn't be a bad position. Sadly, punching doesn't comes near to what they do to hurt people. The real problem is that the people who get hurt by the Nazis aren't made safer by your lack of hypocrisy; and Nazis certainly don't care how hypocrite you actually are (they'll see you as hypocrite as they want, no matter the reality).

If you are going for a path of non-violence, don't do it for avoiding a mean; do it with a tangible goal with results in mind (moral high-ground isn't one).

 

[CaitSeith]

I sense hostility because I ask to treat these people as reasonable humans, that can be convinced to stop what they're doing... and understand their mistakes.

I treat them as humans. Humans that can be believe in lies and even can convince themselves that their terrible acts are no mistake. There is a reason that consumer protection laws exist: because it's easy to con reasonable people.