Poll: A sensitive question about transgender and locker rooms

[Yopaz]

I don't think this is a tricky question. It's all a matter of comfort and the ratios.

I am a guy, I wouldn't feel comfortable changing in the women's locker room, I assume women would be uncomfortable with me changing there too. I would also feel uncomfortable if I were to see lady parts in the locker room while changing. Now I know I'm not alone with this. I would guess this is why we have a division of locker rooms in the first place.

Now imagine a woman who identifies as a man who wants to change in the men's locker room because it would be uncomfortable to change in the women's locker room. I understand how this guy feels, but what about the 5 people in the locker room being uncomfortable with what they see as a woman changing in the locker room with them? Now I am assuming here that we 1 transgendered per 5 people. What if it's 1 for every tenth? Can we really make 5 people uncomfortable in order to prevent one person form being uncomfortable?

I'd say no. Hopefully we will reach a point where the locker rooms simply are places where we go to change into our work out clothes and shower without any kind of division, but we are nowhere near being comfortable enough with ourselves yet. I see people going into the bathroom to change and wearing clothes in the shower. Lots of us are uncomfortable enough in locker rooms already even without making them unisex or transgender accessible. I have seen several people on this very site claiming they avoid the gym because of locker rooms and being ashamed of how they look.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Now imagine a woman who identifies as a man who wants to change in the men's locker room because it would be uncomfortable to change in the women's locker room. I understand how this guy feels, but what about the 5 people in the locker room being uncomfortable with what they see as a woman changing in the locker room with them? Now I am assuming here that we 1 transgendered per 5 people. What if it's 1 for every tenth? Can we really make 5 people uncomfortable in order to prevent one person form being uncomfortable?

As opposed to having the man in the women's change rooms, which would not make people uncomfortable?

Also, for that matter, can we really make 5 white racists uncomfortable by letting black people share their locker rooms?

 

[The Lunatic]

Also, for that matter, can we really make 5 white racists uncomfortable by letting black people share their locker rooms?

To be fair, it's a bit of a false comparison to compare somebody's skin tone or race to gender.

Gender isn't a physical thing, but a self-identity. Which is sometimes, and sometimes not influenced by physical aspects, but has no requirements for them.

Bathrooms and changing rooms often aren't grouped by gender identity, but physical characteristics.

 

[elvor0]

Take it literally: from her point of VIEW, she sees what is biologically a male, how is she immedietly supposed to know that this man identifies as a woman? And even if she did, that doesn't change what is physically in front of her.

Hypothetical here. So, we have a trans man who has gone through hormone therapy, and now possesses a face like Gerard Butler. So, by the arguments presented here, this "woman" ought to be going to the woman's changing womb, because of their doubled up X chromosome and vagina. However, do you really think that this transphobic bigot would actually be any more comfortable with a big, hairy, rugged, enwombed Gerard Butler? Fuck no. They'd still complain. However, they'd probably feel nowhere near as awkward as the man you're arguing should just admit they're a woman and deal with it, and they are in nowhere near the same amount of danger. So maybe we should stop worrying so much about the delicate sensibilities of bigots when they wouldn't even feel any better if they had their way anyway, and show a single shred of empathy for the woman this ***** feels so justified repeatedly misidentifying (that last line is directed towards no one in particular, and I am being honest there, no passive aggressive sniping).

My argument has nothing to do with chromosones, but by what you see in front of you and what your brain tells you that is by prior experience.

The thing is, the way I see it, she originally went to complain not because she had issue with Transgenderism, but because she thought that a bloke had strolled into the womens changing room and she was concerned. I do have empathy for the transwoman, as I understand that it's obviously very difficult to deal with, but my point is that instead of instantly getting the pitchforks out and labelling Cormier as a bigot, try and see it from quite literally what she saw and her point of view: A bloke strolling into the womens changing rooms.

I'm not even arguing that transgendered people shouldn't be able to go into the changing room that they identify with, I'm trying to get people to see WHY Cormier would be uncomfortable; not because she's spiteful but because she's going with what she knows, she can't read minds and it's not bigoted to assume that when a guy that looks like a guy is standing in front of you, that he is a guy, because that is what the overwhelming majority would be.

Ultimately the issue comes from a sliding gender scale being well....a complex issue, applying it to what is a two sex species (barring mutations) hurts some peoples heads, it's a difficult thing to get your head round if it's not something you talk about or even have much contact with. It hurts my head sometimes and I'm all for transgender equality, just boiling it down to "he says he's a woman, that's it, no ifs, no buts, no coconuts", doesn't help or fix the issue, it's just hammering a shapeshifting shape into a semi-circle. Sure it'll fit under very specific circumstances but most of the time you're just wailing away with no chance of success.

Now imagine a woman who identifies as a man who wants to change in the men's locker room because it would be uncomfortable to change in the women's locker room. I understand how this guy feels, but what about the 5 people in the locker room being uncomfortable with what they see as a woman changing in the locker room with them? Now I am assuming here that we 1 transgendered per 5 people. What if it's 1 for every tenth? Can we really make 5 people uncomfortable in order to prevent one person form being uncomfortable?

As opposed to having the man in the women's change rooms, which would not make people uncomfortable?

Also, for that matter, can we really make 5 white racists uncomfortable by letting black people share their locker rooms?

See the forest, not a single tree. The opposite scenario is obviously a given and the answer is the same, it would make more people uncomfortable. Why even ask that question?

Gender isn't something physical, it's mental, so that isn't a very good comparison.

 

[Strazdas]

I blame the Gym for revoking member card instead of explaining why there was a man in the locker room.

No it isn't, it's a guy identifying as a woman, that is not the same as a biological woman and you know that, you can't have transgenderism be special and non existant at the same time.

A trans woman is a woman. That's why the second part of "trans woman" is woman.

The problem here is definition more than anything. The person in question would be a man both legally and biologically, but woman politically. hence, problems arise due to definitions coming from different perspectives being compelte opposite.

Capcha: perferct world.
It reads mind doesnt it?

 

[lionsprey]

well personaly im the kind of insensitive person that do not care what gender you identify with if you have a penis you go to the men's changing room and if you have a vagina you go to the female changing room. the real interesting question is hermaphrodites if you ask me.

 

[Silvanus]

Allow trans people to choose the locker room. There's not really a valid reason to kick up a fuss, just as there isn't a valid reason to object to gay people sharing the locker room.

Ideally, there would also be private stalls for anyone who wants them, but they should be there in any case, for people who feel insecure/ umcomfortable.

 

[Yopaz]

As opposed to having the man in the women's change rooms, which would not make people uncomfortable?

If the man has lady parts who would know unless he were to state it explicitly? I am certain I have encountered gay people at the gym and I may even have been naked in the same room as them. It doesn't make me uncomfortable because if they are gay they don't make any advances to me and I don't demand to know the sexual orientation about people in the locker room before I dare enter. I don't think transgenders are incapable of self control, but I do think that a naked person is unable to hide his or her external reproductive organs.

Also, for that matter, can we really make 5 white racists uncomfortable by letting black people share their locker rooms?

If you were to read my post you would understand that I was using those numbers to make a statement about the fact that most people are not transgendered. Are you saying that the majority of white men are racist? because if you're not I can't see why this argument is relevant. I said we should maximize happiness. If there are more white racist men than black men then yes, we should have separate locker rooms because it would be bad for everyone involved. I am going to be bold and say that I believe that at least here racist white men make a minority in the locker room so they can suck it up.

Finally, I made a statement that this is not an ideal solution. I don't think that my idea is a good idea, I don't think it's how things should be. It's how things are and we should work towards what you want, but we can't force it. You know over here some schools have had to make budget cuts because they have to make changes to the locker rooms to include individual stalls and separate changing rooms (this is mostly in the girls' locker rooms). So we live in a world where girls don't want to change clothes or shower with other girls.

So you may call me intolerant if you like, I don't care. I do however want to stress that I don't consider myself intolerant in this, I am simply not comfortable with nudity in general, I am not comfortable with my own body. This isn't an excuse, this is an explanation. I truly wish it wasn't like this, I truly wish we could be fine just making all the locker rooms unisex and that clothing would be all about not freezing to death and not about decency.

However, you didn't answer my question despite quoting me. Is it right to make 5 people feel awkward to please one?

 

[mad825]

Can anyone show me a proven example of a transgendered person that went through years of therapy, hormone treatment, and possibly surgery just so they can be a perv and spy on people of the "opposite" sex in bathrooms and looker rooms?

I MEAN SERIOUSLY HAS THIS EVER HAPPENED?!

I am so tired of this bullshit excuse for transphobia. Should we also ban homosexuals from these facilities? How far should we let this ignorant train of thought travel? I am so angry right now... I should stop typing...

The issue stems from the fact that there is no genuine way to identify a transsexual for it being mostly a psychological condition. What makes this issue even more complicated is that most women to a degree, are in fear of allowing these so called "women" in.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Is it right to make 5 people feel awkward to please one?

My example of the black person and the 5 racists was intended to answer that.

You can't just go by numbers, to please the majority in all cases. People have rights, even when they are in the minority, and the majority doesn't like this. It might be easier to discriminate against minorities rather than confronting a more powerful group, but it isn't right.

If someone is intolerant towards trans people, that is there problem. It shouldn't become trans people's problem just because lots of people are.

 

[Yopaz]

Is it right to make 5 people feel awkward to please one?

My example of the black person and the 5 racists was intended to answer that.

You can't just go by numbers, to please the majority in all cases. People have rights, even when they are in the minority, and the majority doesn't like this. It might be easier to discriminate against minorities rather than confronting a more powerful group, but it isn't right.

If someone is intolerant towards trans people, that is there problem. It shouldn't become trans people's problem just because lots of people are.

That's not an answer, that's a question. I have already explained why your example doesn't work. So can you just answer the question? should we displease the majority to please the minority?

You're right. People have rights. Everyone does and that's where the problem is. This is a situation where you just can't win, you can't please everyone, it's impossible. Someone is going to be uncomfortable regardless. Should it be the majority or should it be the minority? Explain which way of ethics you follow where maximizing the happiness of as few as possible is the preferred outcome.

I have also tried to explain that this isn't just about intolerance. You seem to be oblivious to the fact that we are self conscious.

You have also ignored large chunks of my post and cherry picked the ones where you can make me seem like I am intolerant rather than just uncomfortable and I know other people are uncomfortable. I have tried to address all the points you brought up, but if you can't be held up to that then I am sorry, but I will not discuss this further.

 

[Thaluikhain]

That's not an answer, that's a question. I have already explained why your example doesn't work. So can you just answer the question? should we displease the majority to please the minority?

You're right. People have rights. Everyone does and that's where the problem is. This is a situation where you just can't win, you can't please everyone, it's impossible. Someone is going to be uncomfortable regardless. Should it be the majority or should it be the minority? Explain which way of ethics you follow where maximizing the happiness of as few as possible is the preferred outcome.

The problem is not about everyone having rights. It's not about who is uncomfortable. The problem is that some people are uncomfortable with other people's rights.

Letting trans women use women's locker rooms reduces the comfort of certain people, yes. It doesn't not affect anyone's rights.

Excluding trans women isn't a problem merely because it reduces their comfort, it reduces their rights.

I have also tried to explain that this isn't just about intolerance. You seem to be oblivious to the fact that we are self conscious.

That is totally irrelevant. Being self-conscious about nudity in general is not remotely the same as wanting to exclude a certain group specifically. If it was merely about being self-conscious in general, people wouldn't tolerate sharing the space with any other people, whereas this is about not tolerating specifically trans people in that space. And not tolerating a certain group is, by definition, intolerance.

 

[Erttheking]

I never got the implication that someone would fake being trans to sneak into the other locker room. With all the crap transexuals seem to catch, it hardly seems like it would be worth it.

 

[Erttheking]

I am so tired of this bullshit excuse for transphobia. Should we also ban homosexuals from these facilities? How far should we let this ignorant train of thought travel? I am so angry right now... I should stop typing...

What does that even have to do with the situation at hand and how is it even comparable?

I think we need a version of Godwin's law here.
"As an online discussion about transgenderism grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving homosexuality or otherkin approaches 1"

Actually it's pretty relevant. The main concern with transexuals is that they'll oggle or otherwise harass the people in there. Homosexuals could very easily do the same thing as they're surrounded by people they're attracted to.

They're both bullshit, but honestly there's a connection.

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

My example of the black person and the 5 racists was intended to answer that.

You can't just go by numbers, to please the majority in all cases. People have rights, even when they are in the minority, and the majority doesn't like this. It might be easier to discriminate against minorities rather than confronting a more powerful group, but it isn't right.

If someone is intolerant towards trans people, that is there problem. It shouldn't become trans people's problem just because lots of people are.

Precisely, unless we want to hold a poll at every gym in the state to determine the ratio of people who would feel uncomfortable with fat people in their changing rooms. Or blacks, or asians, or any other category of potentially 'inappropriate bodies'. Not to mention that this is entirely cultural ... as far as I know, no one gives a shit in Australia ... there's been no news stories I know, and it's protected by law to begin with.

I checked google ... the closest I came to seeing something within the last 3 years was a Queensland school forcing a trans girl of 9 to use the school's disabled toilet, of which quickly got flipflopped and just said that state governments reaffirmed plans for funding unisex bathrooms in public spaces.

People need to grow up. If school children can get behind the idea of transgender identity and not make a fuss, I don't see why an adult that kicks up a stink about it should be taken seriously. They were probably likely to kick up a stink is they merely discovered she was trans and just so happened to go to the same gym. Whole part of being an adult is acting like an adult. Not arguing the merits of petulance. It reminds me of the California incident.

No one complained ... students, teachers, no one gave a shit. The only complaint (fabricated and given to the PJI and Fox News) of sexual harassment was from a parent of one of the students, who objected to the trans student being in the school at all. So ... you know. Giving those people power sounds pretty lovely, doesn't it? That one in 8000 affiliated with an organization ... let's give them greater strengths to make innocent people miserable.

Ahhh, land of liberty. Where everyone is free... As long as no one objects due to prejudicial ideas based on bullshit and feeling the need to hurt innocent people. But hey, it's not like such aspects of this aren't politically motivated about a certain bill recently cropping up....

( http://www.transadvocate.com/debunked-la-peeping-tom-trans-kids_n_10541.htm )

 

[Thaluikhain]

Precisely, unless we want to hold a poll at every gym in the state to determine the ratio of people who would feel uncomfortable with fat people in their changing rooms. Or blacks, or asians, or any other category of potentially 'inappropriate bodies'. Not to mention that this is entirely cultural ... as far as I know, no one gives a shit in Australia ... there's been no news stories I know, and it's protected by law to begin with.

I checked google ... the closest I came to seeing something within the last 3 years was a Queensland school forcing a trans girl of 9 to use the school's disabled toilet, of which quickly got flipflopped and just said that state governments reaffirmed plans for funding unisex bathrooms in public spaces.

People need to grow up. If school children can get behind the idea of transgender identity and not make a fuss, I don't see why an adult that kicks up a stink about it should be taken seriously.

Like you say, it's not something we see everywhere, it's cultural. That is, people have to learn to freak the hell out about trans people in locker rooms.

 

[Killclaw Kilrathi]

Also, have a couple of changing stalls in the locker rooms so that people who are shy can use them and not worry about being seen by others. Seems simple enough to me.

I honestly don't get why this isn't the norm, like, everywhere. It also solves the whole "I don't want gays on my team because I'd be uncomfortable showering with them" tripe. Just have separate shower stalls. Duh! If I was looking at the possibility of gym membership somewhere and they didn't have separate stalls with doors, I'd probably walk out immediately.

That said, I'm totally fine with trans folk going into whatever locker room they identify with. If you're worried about someone ogling your junk, I hate to break it to you but members of your own biological sex can do that already.

 

[Yopaz]

That is totally irrelevant. Being self-conscious about nudity in general is not remotely the same as wanting to exclude a certain group specifically. If it was merely about being self-conscious in general, people wouldn't tolerate sharing the space with any other people, whereas this is about not tolerating specifically trans people in that space. And not tolerating a certain group is, by definition, intolerance.

I have already addressed this, I have mentioned examples of this being a problem. I have already accused you of cherry picking, you prove that accusation right now. I will not bother to repeat myself because you seem unwilling to want to read. Also for the record you are being very disrespectful towards those of us with body issues.

Stop trying to paint me as an intolerant person while simultaneously showing how intolerant you yourself are.

Edit: Also I never tried to give a reason why it's OK to do it like this, I gave reasons why it's understandable. I tried to make this clear, but you jumped on the opportunity to point out that I am a intolerant asshole, you made assumptions about who I am and what I feel. I care about gay people's right and I care about transgenders. I want an opportunity that works for everyone, but I don't see one. You have shown none of this towards me and I am the intolerant one. Seriously, what the fuck? Is it OK to be intolerant towards me just because I'm not gay or transgendered? Is it OK to put me in a box and generalize me based on a small portion of what I've said on this topic? Well you know what, if it is intolerant to have body issues then I am intolerant. If it is intolerant to be awkward in social situation then I am intolerant. If it is intolerant to have social anxiety then I am intolerant. So I admit it, I am intolerant.

 

[Thaluikhain]

I have already addressed this, I have mentioned examples of this being a problem. I have already accused you of cherry picking, you prove that accusation right now. I will not bother to repeat myself because you seem unwilling to want to read. Also for the record you are being very disrespectful towards those of us with body issues.

Stop trying to paint me as an intolerant person while simultaneously showing how intolerant you yourself are.

Edit: Also I never tried to give a reason why it's OK to do it like this, I gave reasons why it's understandable. I tried to make this clear, but you jumped on the opportunity to point out that I am a intolerant asshole, you made assumptions about who I am and what I feel. I care about gay people's right and I care about transgenders. I want an opportunity that works for everyone, but I don't see one. You have shown none of this towards me and I am the intolerant one. Seriously, what the fuck? Is it OK to be intolerant towards me just because I'm not gay or transgendered? Is it OK to put me in a box and generalize me based on a small portion of what I've said on this topic? Well you know what, if it is intolerant to have body issues then I am intolerant. If it is intolerant to be awkward in social situation then I am intolerant. If it is intolerant to have social anxiety then I am intolerant. So I admit it, I am intolerant.

What the hell are you blathering about now?

I haven't said anything about you being intolerant. I will say that you are very wrong, you've been passive aggressive, resorted to ad hominems, have decided to confuse having body issues/social anxiety with transphobia and falsely accused me of cherry picking and not reading your posts where it seems that's what you've been doing, but I never accused you personally of being intolerant.

Now, OTOH, if you are going to say you are, I see no reason to disagree with you on this.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

Now imagine a woman who identifies as a man who wants to change in the men's locker room because it would be uncomfortable to change in the women's locker room. I understand how this guy feels, but what about the 5 people in the locker room being uncomfortable with what they see as a woman changing in the locker room with them? Now I am assuming here that we 1 transgendered per 5 people. What if it's 1 for every tenth? Can we really make 5 people uncomfortable in order to prevent one person form being uncomfortable?

As opposed to having the man in the women's change rooms, which would not make people uncomfortable?

Also, for that matter, can we really make 5 white racists uncomfortable by letting black people share their locker rooms?

People who are uncomfortable with a person of the opposite sex seeing them naked doesn't make them a bigot, it makes them shy or modest. Them having a feeling of humiliation when someone of the opposite sex sees them naked isn't them promoting hatred, they are terribly ashamed and embarrassed. The issue is in the locker rooms people often get completely naked, and regardless of how one identifies themselves, people are going to see the penis in a room full of vagina's as being not of the same sex. We have biological sex and we have gender and they are not the same thing, nor can they be actually treated the same way. Sex sorted facilities, much like tools such as urinals and tampons, are designed for the physical sex and are not not a " gender" product, they are a " sex" product.

Many of the showers in locker rooms were not designed to have privacy from others in the same locker room. Just like urinals, they are open and have people in close proximity to one another while they are in a vulnerable state of undress. Those who are shy, have religious beliefs that will not allow them to be naked in front of the opposite sex, or otherwise feel uncomfortable with having vagina's and penises in such close proximity while naked will seek alternatives and will no longer use the facilities at all, creating more sanitation issues if we have people avoiding showers and not having proper facilities to maintain proper hygiene due to not having facilities to meet their needs provided. Their needs would include being able to become naked without vagina's and penises being in close proximity, and no I do not feel that makes them a bigot, I think it just means they have a different level of modesty than I do, and it is not right for one to attempt to impose their level of modesty on others.

I see facilities such as locker rooms and restrooms as in the same category as urinals and tampons that they contain, they were designed for biological sex needs, not for gender. They could replace the cute stick figure restroom signs with a vagina and a penis to clarify this. However, as I stated previously, They need more options than trying to force everyone into a male or female category, because these issues are only present because they do not have the proper facilities provided for everyone in the first place. The failing to recognize more than just male and female is what started this in the first place.

Transgender is more than just male or female, they are both. Trying to force them into one of the categorizes is the problem here.