Poll: Are gamers today too self entitiled?
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But see, unless someone actually threatens bodily harm on a publisher it isn't really a demand. Sure they can use the word demand but the word request would be interchangeable. Just because they use the word doesn't mean it really is a demand.hermes200 said:You know, there is a difference between "complain" andmalakaira said:
"demand"
Somewhere along the way, a line was crossed.
I disagree completely. Who gives them the money so that they can go on to make games? The consumers do. Without us there isn't even a Bioware in the first place. Gamers are in a way the developers bosses. If they do a good job we pay them well for it. If they don't then they lose money. If they want to continue making games, then they should respect what the people who pay them want.hermes200 said:
Not to say that developers shouldn't have creative freedom. If they didn't then we'd be on Modern Warfare #2097 by now. But they do need to stop taking their fans for granted and understand we're not obligated to buy their games just because they put some time and money into making it.
I think that if all developers just 'listened' to their audience, made it exactly to their liking, and stuffed it to the point of it exploding with fanservice, the games would be horrible.
Instead, the people who are developing and directing the game should know WHERE the series is headed, so that it will get an actual direction. Otherwise, it comes across as dumb in all forms.
The point is that the game the developers are making is NOT YOUR GAME, it's a game that you might just like, if you are part of the intended audience. The problem is when people try to appeal to everyone - nothing ends up working.
Instead, the people who are developing and directing the game should know WHERE the series is headed, so that it will get an actual direction. Otherwise, it comes across as dumb in all forms.
The point is that the game the developers are making is NOT YOUR GAME, it's a game that you might just like, if you are part of the intended audience. The problem is when people try to appeal to everyone - nothing ends up working.
If anything it's the publishers that are too entitled. The things I've seen a good few of them do recently tells me they think they're entitled to every dime in my bank acount by virtue of existing.
I wouldn't think of the petitions and complaints as necessarily a bad thing, it's feedback essentially, and if it makes them work a bit harder on the next release then I'm all for it. Generally the quality of games lately hasn't lived up to the quality of the marketing teams behind it, and I'm all for companies being told that they can't just do this. This also really applies to DLC although that will carry on as long as people still buy it.
I'd say a lot of gamers are too entitled these days, but even more distressing is the larger group that immediately labels any grievances players have as 'being entitled'. Critics have been balking for years about how complacent the gaming community is and how 'they' pay for the Madden Updates, the Day-One DLC, the terrible/safe/both franchises but now we've gotten to the point where there's this terrible backlash on any person or group that wants to speak about about something that bothers them. Not all complaints are equally valid, but the ones with a large enough public support can honestly not be wrong (even if they totally are.) Consumers drive the market, and a large influential group of unhappy consumers is the last thing any company wants.
I thought bosses were, in a way, developers bosses.HappyPillz said:
Of course not, and that is the best way to voice your opinion: don't buy their products. That is the ultimate way a capitalist consumer votes. If Bioware goes to bankrupt after Mass Effect 4 because a lot less people bought it, they will pay attention.HappyPillz said:
But taking away the creativity freedom because you don't like what they did with it is the core of this self-entitlement argument. Whether you like it or not, Mass Effect 3 is the disk that you buy from a store. Its the result of several factor (including creative freedom from the developers), and your money and dedication are infinitesimal parts compared to the actual work they did. So, if YOU think they used it wrong, and YOU think they should redo it or, better yet, listen to people like YOU to do it properly... then, YOU, sir, are self-entitled.
You shouldn't be able to block part of the book that was ready on edition and printing and then charge extra for it.Squidbulb said:
At least Carl Jrs doesn't try to block my right of reselling the second hamburguer after I didn't like the first one.hermes200 said:
To both, I wasn't talking about The Mass Efect controversy, sorry if that was the subject of the thread.
Well, I guess all those name calling, personally addressing developers and employees is perfectly fine as long as its not physical. Somewhere I must have missed the part where bullying was defined as nothing short of a punch in the face.Jodah said:But see, unless someone actually threatens bodily harm on a publisher it isn't really a demand. Sure they can use the word demand but the word request would be interchangeable. Just because they use the word doesn't mean it really is a demand.hermes200 said:You know, there is a difference between "complain" andmalakaira said:
"demand"
Somewhere along the way, a line was crossed.
And I also guess all those hate mails, death threats and calling at people like body functions, organs, byproducts or promiscuous members of the society where coming from a different, less civilized community. Carry on, then...
Yes, but not because they are complaining. As consumers we have the right to complain about something we feel is not right.
The reason they're "too self-entitled" is their attitudes that surround those complains.
The attitude is that they are always right and there is absolutely no way they are wrong.
Too many dismiss any arguments that disagree with their complaint without even trying to see it from another point of view, and thus they make little to no effort to defend their position.
Not backing up your point makes it look like you don't have a point.
It doesn't matter how right you are, or how poor the counter-argument is. When you simply dismiss any counter-arguments, you make yourself look self-entitled. Just yelling, "F*** YOU!! You don't understand!" is not how you argue a case. Unfortunately it seems that's all many gamers can do, or are willing to do.
The attitude can be summed as follows:
PC gamers are the worst about this, but that probably is simply because they're also the most vocal. It's simply the Law of Averages.
Nothing wrong with being vocal. Certainly console gamers could stand to be a little more vocal.
It's just when you take the flawed attitude of, "the customer is always right even when wrong," is when you cross the line from concerned consumer to self-entitled brat.
The reason they're "too self-entitled" is their attitudes that surround those complains.
The attitude is that they are always right and there is absolutely no way they are wrong.
Too many dismiss any arguments that disagree with their complaint without even trying to see it from another point of view, and thus they make little to no effort to defend their position.
Not backing up your point makes it look like you don't have a point.
It doesn't matter how right you are, or how poor the counter-argument is. When you simply dismiss any counter-arguments, you make yourself look self-entitled. Just yelling, "F*** YOU!! You don't understand!" is not how you argue a case. Unfortunately it seems that's all many gamers can do, or are willing to do.
The attitude can be summed as follows:
PC gamers are the worst about this, but that probably is simply because they're also the most vocal. It's simply the Law of Averages.
Nothing wrong with being vocal. Certainly console gamers could stand to be a little more vocal.
It's just when you take the flawed attitude of, "the customer is always right even when wrong," is when you cross the line from concerned consumer to self-entitled brat.
And those few people should be charged with harassment. Point is they are in the minority. The vast majority of the people who "demand" something, aren't actually demanding anything. Saying gamers are entitled just because random jackass 146 decided to be a random jackass isn't much different from saying Muslims are terrorists because of what Al-Qaeda did.hermes200 said:Well, I guess all those name calling, personally addressing developers and employees is perfectly fine as long as its not physical. Somewhere I must have missed the part where bullying was defined as nothing short of a punch in the face.Jodah said:But see, unless someone actually threatens bodily harm on a publisher it isn't really a demand. Sure they can use the word demand but the word request would be interchangeable. Just because they use the word doesn't mean it really is a demand.hermes200 said:You know, there is a difference between "complain" andmalakaira said:
"demand"
Somewhere along the way, a line was crossed.
And I also guess all those hate mails, death threats and calling at people like body functions, organs, byproducts or promiscuous members of the society where coming from a different, less civilized community. Carry on, then...
Oh yes. Because complaining, giving to charity and sending cupcakes is a PERFECT analogue for kidnapping, smashing someone's ankles with a hammer, and attempted murder.hermes200 said:
The usual high quality of argument from the entitlement crowd. Everyone take a shot!
This is all based on the "laws" of economics. Consumers demand a specific product or level of service. If they don't get it they complain. If nothing is fixed they move on.
This is about entitlement, at least in the way I think you are saying.
We all have finite resources (money) and have to chose what we spend it on, as we can obviously buy more than we earn.
This is how the world works. Supply and demand. If a game is shit, then we tell the maker and the fix it, or we no longer buy their products.
Using the Mass Effect example, people were given something different than they were advertised, adn so want that corrected. It's up to EA to decide if they think this problem is going to cost them money in the long run, and if it is worth investing dolalrs now to potentially keep customers loyal. The argument over entitlement is really rather silly, since this is the way the world works. The internet helps make things more vocal now, since so many more people can voice their opinions, but in the end those opinions only matter if you express them with your wallet.
For me, I will no longer pre-buy EA games, and will likely wait over a year for the price to seriously drop if I want a game from them. As bad as the ending was I am more concerned about the DRM and day 1 $10 DLC (that wasn't worth $2 of my dollars). Companies make most of their money from people buying at the beginning. If you want things to change then use your power to not buy.
This is about entitlement, at least in the way I think you are saying.
We all have finite resources (money) and have to chose what we spend it on, as we can obviously buy more than we earn.
This is how the world works. Supply and demand. If a game is shit, then we tell the maker and the fix it, or we no longer buy their products.
Using the Mass Effect example, people were given something different than they were advertised, adn so want that corrected. It's up to EA to decide if they think this problem is going to cost them money in the long run, and if it is worth investing dolalrs now to potentially keep customers loyal. The argument over entitlement is really rather silly, since this is the way the world works. The internet helps make things more vocal now, since so many more people can voice their opinions, but in the end those opinions only matter if you express them with your wallet.
For me, I will no longer pre-buy EA games, and will likely wait over a year for the price to seriously drop if I want a game from them. As bad as the ending was I am more concerned about the DRM and day 1 $10 DLC (that wasn't worth $2 of my dollars). Companies make most of their money from people buying at the beginning. If you want things to change then use your power to not buy.
There's also the fact that name calling and "sense of entitlement" aren't even remotely related to one another.Jodah said:
If I was walking down the street and someone called me an asshole, the first thought into my head wouldn't be "this guy has a real sense of entitlement!".
Yet, apparently, we're to understand that every bad behavior indulged in by every gamer, everywhere, stems from some mythological "sense of entitlement". They don't have anger issues, or depression. They're not misogynist, or excitable, or just pre-teens who think profanity is hilarious.
Nope, it all stems from entitlement.
Entitlement entitlement entitlement.
It's some fucking word of the day calender shit up on these forums lately.
You seem to have missed the part where I said that I wasn't saying that developers shouldn't have creative freedom. My point was that if they want to continue making money, then they need to stop acting like they own the consumers. Lately I've been noticing that a lot of companies seem to have decided that it is okay for them to treat the consumers like garbage and they don't give a second thought at all to the fact that we keep them in business. Take the whole 'Used Games' debate, and the rumours that next gen consoles won't play used games. If that is true, then I will simply not be buying a next gen console, as I'm sure many other people won't either. But the fact that that is even being talked about shows the attitude there is towards consumers. They don't have to consider what gamers want, because they take it for granted we will give them our money.hermes200 said:
And yes, I know that that is just a rumour, but given the recent issues that have been coming up in the gaming comunity, it doesnt seem far fetched at all. I have some other examples I could have used, but I'm between classes right now so time isn't in my favour.
You are slightly wrong in this. If I have a legitimate problem them something I bought then ti doesn't matter if you disagree with it or not. If I think my food is too cold then it doesn't matter if the cook says he likes the food at the temperature it is. I paid money for this food and end expect it to be to my liking, and if the restauraunt isn't going to fix it, then I won't be coming back.Grunt_Man11 said:
If enough people have a problem then the company has to adapt or lose business. We are not talking about a philisophical debate on the value of a game, or if the ending fulfills a player, we are talking about do I feel like I got value for my $60.
{/quote] So, if YOU think they used it wrong, and YOU think they should redo it or, better yet, listen to people like YOU to do it properly... then, YOU, sir, are self-entitled.[/quote]
No, just... No.
I am a purchaser by profession, and I remember having a conversation with one of the sales guys in my office. I mentioned I was moving to a cheaper supplier and he told me how he hates when his customers won't even give him the chance to quote.
Feedback is important. If I chose to no longer buy bioware games because of this then they have no room to improve. If they say "sorry, our bad" and move on, then how can I trust they didn't mess up the next game?
Showing a willingness to correct mistakes that the majority of their customer base is unhappy about will restore faith and keep their business going.
Personally I don't think Bioware should bother with redoing the ME3 ending, but only because it would be such a major undertaking. An add on isn't going to cut it. IN order to make the game make sense they need serious writing work, and programing to make the rest of the game matter. I am sure that is why it wasn't done in the first place. EA decided we would all buy it anyway and they could save money.
Long story short, There is no such thin as entitlement in business. Either you sell your product and make a profit, or the customer demand to much for too little money and you don't have a business.
No, just... No.
I am a purchaser by profession, and I remember having a conversation with one of the sales guys in my office. I mentioned I was moving to a cheaper supplier and he told me how he hates when his customers won't even give him the chance to quote.
Feedback is important. If I chose to no longer buy bioware games because of this then they have no room to improve. If they say "sorry, our bad" and move on, then how can I trust they didn't mess up the next game?
Showing a willingness to correct mistakes that the majority of their customer base is unhappy about will restore faith and keep their business going.
Personally I don't think Bioware should bother with redoing the ME3 ending, but only because it would be such a major undertaking. An add on isn't going to cut it. IN order to make the game make sense they need serious writing work, and programing to make the rest of the game matter. I am sure that is why it wasn't done in the first place. EA decided we would all buy it anyway and they could save money.
Long story short, There is no such thin as entitlement in business. Either you sell your product and make a profit, or the customer demand to much for too little money and you don't have a business.