Poll: Are RPGs getting 'dumbed-down'?

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Aiddon_v1legacy

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considering how clunky and muddy micromanagement can get in RPGs (often for NO GOOD REASON) I can hardly blame people like Molyneux and the Mass Effect team trying to streamline the genre so it can sell more. Just don't go too far like a certain hamster tube simulator
 

Sephychu

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Well yeah. How else are they gonna sell them to all the dumb people?

Some are, some aren't. Sadly, there are more of the ones that are around.
 

Atmos Duality

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JRPGs are still largely built on the House of Grind. Until that changes, the only real selling point for me might be the story (Infinite Space had a pretty good story, but the gameplay felt very very very shallow, and the grind made it even worse...)
Unless the combat is somewhat involving (Tales of the Abyss) or the grind is alleviated (Suikoden 3 has scaled exp and level caps), I'm afraid I'm not interested anymore.

Among Action WRPGs...well, the closest thing we have to a true blue hybrid is Oblivion.
Sadly, Oblivion has superficial depth. I say that because while it has access to amazing Mods, its core content hides behind some truly broken gameplay design.

Oblivion might have had a chance of having real depth if:

1) It didn't have that ass-backwards leveling system that scaled every single thing to your level. By eliminating any sense of difficulty or reward, you have in fact killed most gameplay incentives to keep playing.

2) If combat wasn't so bloody predictable. Every single spell was either a bolt or ball variant if it wasn't a buff. Hitting enemies with ranged spells felt suspiciously bland and boring.
Melee combat was greatly improved from its predecessor, but I still think it could use some expansion. Namely, to differentiate between the melee attacks.
Hand-to-Hand combat was utterly fucking worthless. Perhaps a grapple function would work, but I wouldn't want it to turn into a God of War "insta-rape QTE" attack.

Bow Combat was excellent though...or at least the Bow Physics were. I hope they improve on throwing weapons, because the animation is still really freaking clunky.

I haven't played Dragon Age yet, but from what I've seen, it's fairly repetitive but well-written (as is standard for all EA-era Bioware titles).

Does this mean RPG design has become dumbed down?
Of course it does, but that's due to the market shift from PC to console (every RPG has to compete with WoW now, and that's a losing proposition).
Console controls are not terribly conductive to complicated games. A keyboard can provide the player with (in practical terms, not literal or mathematical) close to 40 inputs, all easily in reach, and a mouse.

An Xbox 360 or PS3 controller has to condense these effects, so the game design shifted to adapt to this limitation.
Just like how every shooter limited your arsenal to Halo standards (2-5 weapons), so do these new RPGs.
Turn-based RPGs used to be more popular because of their alleged depth, but that all died out with the advent of RPG-elements being squeezed into every genre conceivable.

FF13 took criticism for not involving the player all that much, when the intent was to streamline the gameplay to match these new standards.
 

Lord Legion

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YES! Very much so in fact.

I still switch around from baldur's gate 2 to other titles, and while you can expect some areas to simply not mesh together for compairison, the general feeling I get is a lack of strategy.

I feel Dragon Age is a large purpetrator of this, and while many have said it is hard-indeed a few parts, I LITERALLY slept through some parts. And yes, I was playing a mage, the "thinking" class, though the spells quickly lost their zazz and usefulness and in the end I had to resort to simply spamming tempest and blizzard from afar to get even the smallest sense of power.

AND THE OUTFITS!!! Was I the only one who wondered if maybe the art directors were watching a little too much of the bravo channel? Especially the hats! I could never bring myself to wear one.

Sorry about that tangent...
 

Aiddon_v1legacy

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Garak73 said:
Aiddon said:
considering how clunky and muddy micromanagement can get in RPGs (often for NO GOOD REASON) I can hardly blame people like Molyneux and the Mass Effect team trying to streamline the genre so it can sell more. Just don't go too far like a certain hamster tube simulator
By micromanagement what do you mean? Inventory? Equipment?
That's one thing; the original Mass Effect for instance had TERRIBLE inventory management with samey unstackable items and mounds of weapons and upgrades you would never, ever use after some time except to convert to Omni-Gel. So for the sequel what do they do, they keep weapons to three or four per type and make the upgrades universal stat boosts.
 

PedroSteckecilo

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I think Dumbed Down is the wrong term for what is happening to many modern RPG's. Most of them, such as Mass Effect 2 and (by the looks of it) Dragon Age 2 are seriously trimming the fat, losing the elements of a game that previously made something an RPG (Stats, Number Crunching) and improving other elements that ALSO made something an RPG (Dialogue Systems, Choices, Multiple Plot Lines). Personally I NEVER liked the number crunching, so long as I still get some customization that makes my character feel unique enough I'm cool with it.
 

Dexiro

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Getting more dumbed down in comparison to what?

The ratio of complex and regular RPG's is pretty much the same as it used to be. It's just that almost every game gets labelled with RPG these days.
 

Ewyx

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Meh, they're lacking story complexion due to the fact that everything has to be voiced. They're lacking RPG complexion as well, because consoles lack the flexibility of the mouse and a keyboard with a lot of bindings etc.
 

Jake the Snake

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Where's the option: No, they're progressing and evolving at a slow pace. (not necessarily getting more...complicated)
 

RatRace123

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It seems Bioware might be doing this. Note that it's not that bad, and they still have the best writers out of any other developer.

Dragon Age 2 seems a bit disappointing, but I'm holding judgement until I play it, I don't think Bioware will let us down.

And Mass Effect 2, I liked... A LOT! But, Mass Effect 1, I still think is superior, not because of the lack of RPG elements but because I think ME1 had a better story, pacing, and villain.

I still vote yes, I think they're getting somewhat dumbed down, but they're not necessarily any worse for it.
 

obliviondoll

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Yes, RPGs are getting dumbed down to an extent.

In many, but not all, cases, this makes the game more accessible, more console-friendly, and results in something which is still a fairly good game.

Would a few stat-heavy old-school RPGs be a good idea? Yes. Would they be possible on a console? Strangely, I'm going to say yes. Dragon Age is proof of concept. Basic as many of its RPG elements were in comparison with the more complex RPGs we used to see, they were very important to the playstyle and effectiveness of the character(s), and there was room to expand the RPG elements without sacrificing playability.

Unfortunately, Dragon Age 2 isn't looking promising in its followup role. I hope they expand on the traditional RPG elements already present, and emphasise their importance as well as the responsivenes/action focus which has been emphasised in most interviews and information I've seen so far. Not that prettying up the action and improving responsiveness of commands is bad, but in the past, that usually makes skill with the controls more important than developing your character's stats, equipping the right abilities, and all the other elements which make traditional RPGs what they are.

Of course, on the other side of the equation, I think blurring the lines between the genres is a good thing for shooters and action games as well as RPGs - there are plenty of people who want more intelligent shooters, or more intelligent hanck-and-slash games, and even more who like the stories of RPGs, but can't be bothered with all the complicated stuff they'd have to do to follow them. The problem comes when everyone forgets there are still extreme ends to the scale as well as a middle ground.
 

Johnnyallstar

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Ultratwinkie said:
Johnnyallstar said:
Saying that RPGs are being dumbed down implies that they were once intelligent. Which also assumes that they were better way back in the day than they are now. I wouldn't say either of those are true, but what I would say is that the RPG world is continuing to evolve.
they were. if you played any tabletop RPGs you would know it requires math skills and literacy. now you can play rpgs without even knowing how to read and have no math skills. that means perks, skills, etc for characters are USELESS. hell my 13 year old illiterate cousin completes RPGs without even knowing what skill does what and what perk does what.
As a matter of fact, I still play tabletop RPGs. But you can get by being completely idiotic in your choices as long as you have a little luck and a DM who isn't going to viciously punish you for it. Kinda like having a video game that's not going to punish you for your bad choices.

I don't mean to be rude at all, but illiteracy isn't a sign of lack of intellect, but the lack of a skill. I have two brothers, 11 and 13, and their writing is so bad it almost makes anybody seem illiterate, but they still manage. Also, illiteracy doesn't mean that your cousin can't learn to play tabletop. If your cousin has a mental problem I'm sorry, but if he gets a little assistance, I'm sure he can at least have fun with tabletop, unless the DM is completely impatient with him, or a major dick about it.
 

Numb1lp

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Not dumbed down, just more user friendly. Before Fallout 3, I've never had a true RPG experience, and becuase of how easy it was to pick up, I've discovered new RPG's I like.
 

Red Albatross

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The RPG world is definitely changing and evolving, like everything else does. You could ask this question about video games in general, and you'll get a million different answers.

The most polarizing example in Western RPGs is Mass Effect. Some people think the first was better, others think the second was, and you pretty much won't get anyone to agree on it. I think we have to define what "dumbed down" actually means to get a handle on the answer to this question.

Does dumbed down mean that one doesn't have to put as much thought into playing the game? I've seen a lot of people in this thread saying that RPG elements are getting removed, but what exactly constitutes an RPG element? Going back to ME again, was the first games' clunky and time consuming inventory and mostly superficial character customization really worthy of keeping around just because it's an "RPG element?" Or do we just like keeping these things around because of nostalgia, because it's expected? I, personally, liked ME2 just as much as the first. I liked Fallout 3 just as much as the first two. I loved Morrowind and I expect I would have loved Oblivion had I not found it so interminably boring for some undefinable reason.

I think we need to take a step back and understand what an RPG is and what it's supposed to do. We're supposed to relate to and empathize with the character we're playing and the characters around him or her, or, I should say the ones that we're meant to. Villains and jerks are exempt from the empathy bit. There are a few different ways to achieve the desired results, but if the game sucks us into its world, it's doing its job properly. I think this depends more on good writing than any particular gameplay elements. I think we gravitate towards some of said elements just because they feel familiar and not because we particularly like them, and any discontent gets forgiven because of the game as a whole.
 

Lazzi

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I wouldnt say they've been dumbed down, they've been refined. The experience is alot smoother now that in older rpgs.
 

DustyDrB

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The focus is being taken off the the HUD and dice rolling, which is a very good change.
 

C95J

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No, I love all RPG's that I play, and have no reason to complain...
 

ilion

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Actually i feel a bit sad there will probably never exist another great rpg with a drag and drop style inventory, like system shock 2 and arx fatalis. In arx fatalis you could make bread! so awesome.
 

More Fun To Compute

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The game design is being watered down and the settings are being simplified so they are appealing to more people. I agree that RPGs were never exactly quantum physics but they are moving down the bell curve leaving veterans bored.