Poll: Are RPGs getting 'dumbed-down'?

[veloper]

Yes, most modern RPGs are too easy and/or too actiony and not deep enough. Dumbed down.

For hybrids like Borderlands (RPS) I don't think this is so terrible. You can take your shooter or action game and slap on XP and level mechanics, no problem.

Worst example is Dragon Age, which I found was easy on hard, but many players and even most professional reviewers complained about being too hard on normal. You cannot even fault the industry for the decline; the audience nolonger knows how to play.

 

[Sylveria]

For example, you cite FF 13 which you allude to being "dumbed down", but while certain things have been simplified, the combat is much more complex than the old FF games or JRPGs in general. Does one cancel out the other?

Edit: saw this after I posted:

No more world maps because we can't let people get lost. Controlling only one character cause it's too complicated to have the player control more than one.

Can you prove it is because "we can't let people get lost"? Does it maybe make more sense that with giant resource (money and time) hogging scenery they have decided to put in fewer places and force people to go to the ones they do make rather than putting effort into something people might skip or miss?

I don't know which FF13 you played but there is no complexity in the combat at all. You win the fight by following a dirt simple pattern of 2Sab+healer > 2buff+healer >rav+com+healer or rav+rav+com if you're feeling ballsy>repeat until everything is dead. There's no need to react to a situation, every enemy is the same, just follow the pattern except for maybe 1 or 2 bosses at the very end of the game. You seem to confuse "complex" with "convoluted"

And yes, we can prove it is "we can't let people get lost." Look how much time and money was spent on stuff like FF13 which is almost a rail shooter. That game took 5 years. It almost took as long as FF 12 which was a thousand times larger of a game and FF12 had half the staff quit during production. Heck, compare it to 10 which was also almost a series of hallways but the hallways were bigger, had some branching paths and there was even secret areas. At the time FFX was top of the line graphics and took about 1/4 the time to develop.

 

[CitySquirrel]

And yes, we can prove it is "we can't let people get lost." ...

That is not proof, that is an interesting story about the development of different games. Proof would be a recorded statement of intent, a design document, etc. What you have is a situation you don't like and supposition of motives.

 

[Sephychu]

See Disgaea for my ideal inventory system. Lists with many detail boxes, and tons of space.

Having to sift through hundreds of iterations of similar weapons or items just to keep the best version of each every hour of play? No thanks!

Eh, Item Worlding effectively will leave you set with a weapon for ages and ages. That's what I did.

 

[Woodsey]

Everything is getting dumbed down. Take for instance, the most recent game in my memory, Mafia 2. For some reason, jumping and looking up seems to be gone completely. Also, the weapon selection is done with that fucking horrifying 4-button layout the consoles so conveniently use.

You know if you use the mouse wheel the 4-corner thing doesn't even show up?

 

[The Electro Gypsy]

A lot of old-school Fallout fans seemed to have the same issue with FO3 from FO2.

Dragon Age was a largely anticipated RPG, even dubbed the 'spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate 2' (I'm not sure if it was the devs who said this or the fans).

Yeah, Fallout 2 ruined me for RPGs (Making me a picky sod about them, most of the time I'll still go "Meh, Fallout's better and anyone on the planet with a comp can run it") and I was pretty dissapointed by Fallout 3, but it's by no means boring, it's just in desperate need of modding, especially if you play it vanilla before deciding what it's like (I direct you towards FOOK2 and mods like that which are totally bloody awesome).

I found Dragon Age pretty dissapointing actually, although again it was fun, it just couldn't hold my attention for the length of time required for an RPG, especially one of that magnitude if what I'm told about it's length is correct.

Also, wasn't Baulder's Gate the successor to Fallout 2, or was that the other way around? Not actually played B'sG yet :/

 

[The Electro Gypsy]

Heck, compare it to 10 which was also almost a series of hallways but the hallways were bigger, had some branching paths and there was even secret areas. At the time FFX was top of the line graphics and took about 1/4 the time to develop.

You're not wrong there actually, 10 was pretty much that, with a really stoopid main char. And in the cinematics everyone went orange :')

 

[Woodsey]

snip

Why is it there in the first place?

You don't have to snip me I only wrote a line xD

And because if you use the number keys like a briefcase-wanker it pops up, then you press 1 to cycle through the pistols, 2 for the rifles, etc. It's as good as HUD as any for one that most people'll never see on the PC version.

It's hardly been dumbed down, there's just no need to replace a single texture that serves it's purpose. The PC's the lead platform anyway, so I don't really see what the problem is.

[sub]Yeah, I'm watching The Inbetweeners.[/sub]

 

[Woodsey]

snip

Well, I find it horrible. And it is there because it's more convenient for the consoles. Wasn't even the biggest problem I had with the game in the dumbing down lane either.

So use the mouse wheel.

Also, I snip everything.

EVERYTHING? D:

 

[Woodsey]

snip

Everything.

I'm not saying it's unusable, I'm saying it's another example of developers bending over for consoles. As of late I started raging at every game that has those 4-button control schemes ported to PCs from consoles. For instance *cough* the Assassin's Creed games. It's not gamebreaking, unlike some other issues I mentioned, but it does get rage inducing when you realise almost nothing is being developed for PCs anymore.

Someone is bound to mention MMORPGs after this.

The PC was the lead platform for Mafia 2.

 

[masseyguy911]

I would say yes, but it's not a bad thing. They may be dropping in complexity, but they are rising in entertainment value.

Couldn't have said it better.
But, yes they are getting dumbed down, not that thats a bad thing.

 

[CitySquirrel]

You're not wrong there actually, 10 was pretty much that, with a really stoopid main char. And in the cinematics everyone went orange :')

I can't tell if you are agreeing or disagreeing with him.

 

[G-Force]

No but they sure as hell are getting cookie-cutter. I'm almost glad Atlus went out of business, they were the main culprit for pumping out JRPG after JRPG with bland unoriginal story, characters, everything.

Demon Souls is reguarded as one of the most unique RPGs and MMOs of all time.
Persona 4 is a RPG where the main backdrop is set against a murder mystery Not too many RPGs revolve around this concept.

For JRPG fans Atlus losing its name, the company is still around as its being part of a merger, is pretty bad but they will continue to make quality titles.

 

[TPiddy]

My only complaint really is how short some modern RPGs seem to be (DA:O I'm looking in your direction). Sorry, 40 hours to complete every side quest is pathetic. Last Rebellion was only 20 hours to obtain a Platinum Trophy for chrissake! That's short by the standards of any genre! I beat Nier 4 times in one week and got 90% of the trophies. Sad.

Anyone play DQ7? That game's length was epic. For those who don't like lengthy games, there are plenty of other genres to play.

I think Dragon Age's length would have to be padded to include all of the origins as well. Even when doing that it's still short, but I played through it 4 times, and then did the other two origins and got about 135 hours of gameplay.

Sure you're doing the same environments multiple times with different characters to get the lenght, but how is that any different from using copy / pasted dungeon generators like some RPG's do to pad length? I would think Fallout 3 is the best example I can come up with of a game that legitimately took a hell of a long time for a single playthrough. I think my first build topped 70 hours? I went EVERYWHERE though.

 

[TPiddy]

Demon Souls is reguarded as one of the most unique RPGs and MMOs of all time.
Persona 4 is a RPG where the main backdrop is set against a murder mystery Not too many RPGs revolve around this concept.

For JRPG fans Atlus losing its name, the company is still around as its being part of a merger, is pretty bad but they will continue to make quality titles.

Trying to figure out how Demon's Souls is an MMO....

 

[TPiddy]

I've seen people complain about not being able to respec (in games like Sacred 2 for example). I see this only as a problem when the game does not provide clear enough descriptors for the stat/ ability in which you are placing a point.

I've no problem with not being able to respec my character though. (My Seraphim in Sacred 2 has only died 4 times and is at level 107 - I was aiming for 0 deaths though).

Can you imagine if you could respec a Demon's Souls character? It might take the challenge out of the equation - by crafting your character each time you enter a new area (or boss fight).

I think I'm a little divided on this issue. On one hand I hate seeing developers throw players a bone like that, but on the other hand if you fuck up your build so badly you can't beat the game.... well, maybe in those cases the devs should have balanced the skill trees... I remember Diablo II having some horribly unbalanced skill trees.

 

[G-Force]

Demon Souls is reguarded as one of the most unique RPGs and MMOs of all time.
Persona 4 is a RPG where the main backdrop is set against a murder mystery Not too many RPGs revolve around this concept.

For JRPG fans Atlus losing its name, the company is still around as its being part of a merger, is pretty bad but they will continue to make quality titles.

Trying to figure out how Demon's Souls is an MMO....

Player interaction plays a huge part in Demon Souls. Players can leave hints and warnings behind for other players in the level not to mention there is the option of summoning another character into your game from the huge masses to help you in your level. On the opposite end you always run the risk of having your game be invaded by another character which then shows the game's PvP aspect.

 

[Ascarus]

"Dumbed down" is such a nebulous term that can basically be taken to mean anything that an individual doesn't like about current RPGs. What are the criteria for being "dumbed down"? What aspects are you referring to, the stats or the role-playing or both? Does dumbed down just mean simplified? Any tabletop player would say computer RPGs are dumbed down in that sense. Further more, specifics have to be qualified: was Dragon Age dumbed down because they though BG was too complex or because when BG was made they could make a vast world with relatively few resources unlike today's manually rendered worlds?

It seems to me that this is an entirely subjective issue. The question is really more along the lines of "do you individuals more enjoy complex stat based systems, streamlined story telling devices, etc." For example, you cite FF 13 which you allude to being "dumbed down", but while certain things have been simplified, the combat is much more complex than the old FF games or JRPGs in general. Does one cancel out the other?

couldn't have said it better myself and it all boils down to that one sentence i highlighted.

really, this post pretty much sums it up.

edit: stupid quote tags!

 

[mohosuru]

I say yes they are getting dumbed down, in the sense that they are becoming way too easy. I mean, final fantasy 10 I didn't even have to try for most of it. the most difficult rpg's I ever played were Breath of Fire III, Legend of Legaia, and Legend of Dragoon, all of which were ps1 games. nothing on ps2 comes close. Final fantasy, which is my favorite rpg series, is still fun, but it's just getting easy. I want to face a boss that actually HAS a chance at beating me. and in the last 6 years, I haven't met one yet.

 

[Cowabungaa]

No. Not at all.

That's not true. Compare, say, Planescape: Torment, the original Fallout and Arcanum with modern day RPG's like Mass Effect, Oblivion and Fallout 3.

The difference in complexity and open-ness is rather staggering. Not saying new RPG's are worse, they're just a lot different. I enjoy them both, but I'd love to see one a new old-school, extremely deep RPG where the sky's the limit.