Poll: Bayonetta Sexist?

[funguy2121]

I guess the first thing to address when answering this question is, are you asking about the kind of sexism borne of ignorance or the intentional, pandering kind?

So let's look at the developer's intentions, shall we?

The first image comes from a website that says "stickers removed posters uncovered."

I knew nothing of this game until right before it came out, except that I had no desire to play it. Anything in any art realm that is created by someone who feels the need to be this overtly, impertinently sexual is very, very rarely worth my time. I gets my porn from, well, porn, and don't really want to see it, even in little doses, from my movies and games-unless it's for comedic effect.

Seriously though, take a look at the two most famous female body parts. No human ass looks like that. And breasts that size and that distance from the head exist exclusively on grannies. Right up until the release, the game was marketed almost exclusively for its sexual content (and surprise, surprise, there really is none). The developer was hoping to sell the game, not on its merits as an ass-kicking action title, but on the sex appeal of its polygonal protagonist.

Hmm, what's this? There seems to be a throng of ill-tempered torch-bearers at my door. Hold on-

CALM DOWN LADS! I ENJOYED THE GAME AS WELL! I WAS JUST SAYING--

--Well, they seem to be quite determined. So I leave you with this. If the game had featured some eye candy for a purpose beyond just sending a nerd's hand reaching for the neutrogena, say, to laugh at the akwardness of adolescence or lend itself to theme, it could escape the label of sexism. But since its soul purpose is to objectify its (fictional) (cartoon) (polygonal) (pixelated) (not real) central character for the purposes of marketing her to young boys who have yet to graduate to jerking off to actual women, it is exactly that.

 

[funguy2121]

Wasn't she designed by a woman?

The future of feminism is not how men treat or view women, but rather how everyone views and treats women. Women are some of the best chauvinists and misogynists out there.

 

[Impluse_101]

Well, I don't have a problem with Bayonetta as long as it doesnt really affect me in a bad way, but I do have to ask who this one fellow in a white robe following me....

 

[Therumancer]

I said "no" rather solidly. The reason is simply because having an attractive and sexy female lead is in no way sexist. Women create very similar characters when they write or produce artwork, whether it be comedy, serious, or something in between.

Arguements that having an attractive female character is sexist or exploitive are usually made by the so called "notties". That is to say that as far as this kind of thing goes, modern feminism is typically directed by unattractive or average looking women who get upset over the advantages that attractive women have in society and frequently exploit. The ultimate issue being that since there will be people lining up to give an attractive woman things, where less attractive women have to work hard for the same recognition, that this is unfair. The arguement about exploitation sounds better than simply expressing jealousy. Arguements about exploitation largely being the equivilent of someone argueing that it's unfair that an athlete like Michael Jordan should be able to make millions upon millions of dollars because he was gifted with natural athletic abillity and talent that other people simply don't possess. It's not fair, but all men (and women) are not created equal, some people win the "genetic lottery".

Honestly it would be nice if there was something of a blanket media ban on giving a platform to complaints about artwork, characters, or people who are simply too exceptional. It doesn't get the same kind of coverage, but another arguement you hear from time to time is when you have some guy with huge, perfectly developed muscles. The arguement being that like female characters giving young girls "unreasonable expectations" this gives the same thing to the boys, who turn to steroids and similar things trying to reach the goal of having a bicep as big as their head or whatever. In the end it's just stupid, anyone who is swayed by such portrayals has inherant problems that are going to be triggered by something else if not that.

 

[GodofCider]

Neither?

This is akin to asking whether the character Superman is empowering to males. It's so completely over the top that nothing else factors in.

He flies around shooting lasers out of his eyes.
She kills monstrosities with her hair.

 

[valleyshrew]

As a gay male gamer I thought Bayonetta was gratuitous and made me uncomfortable. I'd much rather stare at a naked male, and it would be more appropriate for a violent game. Why couldn't they make it an option to select male or female? Games far too frequently pander to straight white teenage males. Where are the oversexualised male characters? In god of war the camera doesn't zoom in on Kratos' ass jiggling at any point. It's a disgrace! Why can't we have naked male warriors? The Celts did it.

That said, sexuality is not sexist and it's ludicrous to suggest so. A single piece of media cannot be expected to have perfectly equal representation.

Now if she were in a position where she acts completely helpless and has to rely on a big strong man to help her out most of the time, then yeah, she probably would be kind of sexist.

No no no! A flawed female character is not sexist. There exist females who have been helpless in reality. A character is not defined by their sex. If a big strong female helps a helpless male would that be sexist? If you say no then you're being sexist by assuming that a deliberate inverse stereotype isn't just as bad as the stereotype. It's a stereotype that Black people are stupid. So you would say every black character therefore has to be smart or it's racist?

 

[scorptatious]

]

snip

Now if she were in a position where she acts completely helpless and has to rely on a big strong man to help her out most of the time, then yeah, she probably would be kind of sexist.

No no no! A flawed female character is not sexist. There exist females who have been helpless in reality. A character is not defined by their sex. If a big strong female helps a helpless male would that be sexist? If you say no then you're being sexist by assuming that a deliberate inverse stereotype isn't just as bad as the stereotype. It's a stereotype that Black people are stupid. So you would say every black character therefore has to be smart or it's racist?

You complain about how games don't pander to the gay audience, and then you say that games should't be expected to have completely equal representation. Contradiction much?

That said, you do make a point about the whole sexism/racism thing. I do believe that a flawed female character isn't necessarily sexist. I'm just saying though, a female character that is made out to be strong only to completely conform to their stereotype doesn't make a good character in my opinion.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

Men seem to think that women have a problem with 'sexy' characters. Personally I tend not too have a problem with it. I even use mods for game like fallout and oblivion to avoid looking like a man with a womans head. I more have an issue with women who are ONLY about the way they look. Characters like Lara Croft and Bayonetta actually rise above that and are actually smart and dangerous women. It's a shame that the media objectifies and sexualises such strong female games characters but when you actually get inside the game they are very likable.

 

[mireko]

No no no! A flawed female character is not sexist. There exist females who have been helpless in reality. A character is not defined by their sex. If a big strong female helps a helpless male would that be sexist? If you say no then you're being sexist by assuming that a deliberate inverse stereotype isn't just as bad as the stereotype. It's a stereotype that Black people are stupid. So you would say every black character therefore has to be smart or it's racist?

That's essentially true, but it's also wrong~

It obviously isn't inherently sexist to write a female character who needs help, but we can't pretend that every story is being told in a vacuum without influencing or being influenced by other works around it. Writing a generic "save the princess!" storyline only fits right into the tradition of portraying all women as weak and needy.

This extends to racism as well. If you make a game with a bunch of stupid, slang-talking black guys with no counterbalance, then you're playing to a racist stereotype. You can't pretend that you don't know that stereotype exists. To use a different example: If you have a game with an evil, sneaky, Jewish antagonist, that's going to be pretty fucking dicey. You could go out afterwards and say "oh no, that's totally just a coincidence", but it doesn't matter, that's how it will be perceived. And really, people in the industry should know better.

Oh and:

If a big strong female helps a helpless male would that be sexist? If you say no then you're being sexist by assuming that a deliberate inverse stereotype isn't just as bad as the stereotype.

This doesn't work as an example. There is no stereotype (on Earth, as far as I'm aware) of men being weak and needing to be rescued by women. If we had this stereotype, then that portrayal would be a bad thing, but we don't.

TL;DR: Even if sexism or racism is unintended, playing to a racist or sexist stereotype is going to be perceived as sexism/racism, and it will be the writer's own damn fault.

With all that said, yes, Bayonetta is gratuitous. This is the director of Viewtiful Joe and Devil May Cry. The fanservice is the joke, it's kind of what he does. Even Dante pandered pretty blatantly with his unlockable shirtless mode.

Men seem to think that women have a problem with 'sexy' characters. Personally I tend not too have a problem with it. I even use mods for game like fallout and oblivion to avoid looking like a man with a womans head. I more have an issue with women who are ONLY about the way they look. Characters like Lara Croft and Bayonetta actually rise above that and are actually smart and dangerous women. It's a shame that the media objectifies and sexualises such strong female games characters but when you actually get inside the game they are very likable.

There's also this. I have to assume some writers figure "eh, she's sexy, that's all the personality we need".


[sub]Although I secretly have a thing for tough, muscular women. Where are the games for me??[/sub]

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

[sub]Although I secretly have a thing for tough, muscular women. Where are the games for me??[/sub]

Jennifer Hale as Commander Shepard is probably the toughest and most awesome lady I know I want her voice so I don't sound like 'Fluttershy the my little pony' anymore >_>.

 

[UmbraWitchy]

i think you're confusing sexism with oversexualization

 

[Casual Shinji]

I don't know what you're talking about.

But, I'd mostly say that she's just fighting for her freedom from the oppressive Lumen Sage rule. Sure, she's also questing to treat her amnesia after five-hundred years imprisoned in a tomb, but it mostly revolves around her playing Colonial American militiaman to the Lumen Sages' Redcoat British.

After all, deep down inside of anything that's portrayed as "evil," like Bayonetta and her origins as a witch and a servant of Hell, is an innocent soul struggling against discrimination from the misguided world. And when you look at anything that's portrayed as "good," like the Lumen Sages and their angel-armies, they're actually manipulative bastards who'd kill anybody that's evil in name and looks only, all in the name of their own selfish desires.

I could go into more detail, but I'd spoil the convoluted story anyway.

I'm impressed you were able to make this much sense of that clusterfuck of a story to begin with. *thumbs up*

OT: Is it sexist? Yes and no.

I guess Bayonetta is a prime example of how feminism killed itself.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

As a straight woman when I look at that pic of Bayonetta lying down I think 4 things mostly in this order.
1. Those guns look kind of steampunk that's pretty cool.
2. Where can I get shoes made out of guns...
3. I think I would like to play that game she looks badass.
4. Lol hipster kitty/Sarah Palin
I'm kind of a feminist. The last thing on my mind is to enrage. However, I am used to gaming advertisement a 'normal' woman might be put off by that billboard I guess

 

[0thello]

I do not think this is a question MALES should be answering. Even in the height of misogyny males usually deny everything.

Behold, sexism.

What Bayonetta is isn't really sexist.
Though personally I just think its pandering to the pocket-mining demographic.

Maybe you need to EDUCATE yourself about SEXISM before you try to IDENTIFY it little guy.

 

[Casual Shinji]

I'm impressed you were able to make this much sense of that clusterfuck of a story to begin with. *thumbs up*

OT: Is it sexist? Yes and no.

I guess Bayonetta is a prime example of how feminism killed itself.

I know you're being sarcastic, but if you weren't, I'd be thankful for you agreeing with me.

No, I'm serious. My brain would've turned to mush trying to make even a sliver of sense of Bayonetta's story. Then again, I gave up on trying to follow the story the minute that annoying Joe Pesci look-a-like appeared on screen.

 

[AmrasCalmacil]

I do not think this is a question MALES should be answering. Even in the height of misogyny males usually deny everything.

Behold, sexism.

What Bayonetta is isn't really sexist.
Though personally I just think its pandering to the pocket-mining demographic.

Maybe you need to EDUCATE yourself about SEXISM before you try to IDENTIFY it little guy.

Behold, someone trying to be a big man on the interwebz.
Scary shit.

 

[0thello]

I do not think this is a question MALES should be answering. Even in the height of misogyny males usually deny everything.

Behold, sexism.

What Bayonetta is isn't really sexist.
Though personally I just think its pandering to the pocket-mining demographic.

Maybe you need to EDUCATE yourself about SEXISM before you try to IDENTIFY it little guy.

Behold, someone trying to be a big man on the interwebz.
Scary shit.

I'm not trying to scare you, little guy. Neither am I trying to prove anything.

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

Empowering

She's a sexual fetish parody. ^^ You just gotta love her.

Edit: Also, didn't vote because poll makes no sense.

 

[bushwhacker2k]

Whatever option fits for "shallow and fanservicey"

Okay, I'm hoping I'm not going to get called down by fanboys, as I have not played the game, but what I have seen from videos and the demo, she doesn't really seem deep enough for any analyzation. So, yes, "shallow and fanservice-y" is fairly appropriate.

 

[scorptatious]

I do not think this is a question MALES should be answering. Even in the height of misogyny males usually deny everything.

Behold, sexism.

What Bayonetta is isn't really sexist.
Though personally I just think its pandering to the pocket-mining demographic.

Maybe you need to EDUCATE yourself about SEXISM before you try to IDENTIFY it little guy.

Behold, someone trying to be a big man on the interwebz.
Scary shit.

I'm not trying to scare you, little guy. Neither am I trying to prove anything.

I like how you keep calling him "little guy" when clearly he has a higher post count than you.