Poll: Bayonetta Sexist?

[Zaik]

You should probably explain why you feel it is or isn't so that most people have any clue what you are talking about.

 

[aPod]

Is Bayonetta sexist? No.
Is Bayonetta sexy? Yes.
Is sexy sexist? No.

 

[Dense_Electric]

No more so than something like God of War is sexist in its depiction of men, which I don't consider it to be. So no, Bayonetta is not sexist. It's not as if it's saying ALL WOMEN MUST BE THIS WAY, in the same way that God of War doesn't say ALL MEN MUST BE THIS WAY. Pandering, yes, but sexist, no.

 

[OptimisticPessimist]

Can't decide. Too distracted by bouncy leatherclad digital ass.

 

[Raistlinhawke]

Pandering, sure.

Sexist, not really.

 

[Mikeyfell]

Bayonetta is strongly characterized, and not just "for a videogame character."

Being sexy doesn't automatically negate everything else about a person.

I wouldn't go so far to say she's empowering to women. She's strong and independent and caring and blah blah blah... but she's too obviously fictional to be a real roll model.

Why can't she be neither?

 

[Dense_Electric]

I do not think this is a question MALES should be answering. Even in the height of misogyny males usually deny everything.

That would be sexism. Everyone is entitled to their opinion even if they disagree with yours. And that's a pretty big generalization make about nearly three and a half billion people, you know?

 

[Terminal Blue]

Sexist is the wrong word.

"Women are only good for housework and breeding" is sexist.

"I know, let's make a game about a strong, fantastic female character whose clothes fly off every minute so that sexually frustrated manchildren can get off on it" is exploitation (in several senses). It uses a fantasy of liberated and available female sexuality to sell a product.

The former is outright harmful. The latter represents a pretty cynical attitude to selling a product, but the actual content is only really as bad as its effects. If the fantasy shapes how people view the real world, then it can be extremely harmful. We've all met guys who treat women as objects or consider themselves to have a right to behave voyeuristically or inappropriately because they're used to achieving sexual gratification with images or objects.

It's very easy nowadays to have 'sexual' experiences without having to negotiate consent with a real person, and thus it's hardly surprising that you end up with a whole load of guys (and it is largely guys, sadly) who can't adequately distinguish between interaction with fantasy and interaction with real people.

In this case, I don't know. While I find any game which panders to its viewers (assumed) male heterosexuality slightly irritating, I don't think it intrinsically harms anyone. At the same time people view reality very much through their fantasies, and to a certain extent controlling those fantasies means controlling people's real behaviour. So yeah.. jury out, I guess.

 

[Samechiel]

I'm not trying to scare you, little guy. Neither am I trying to prove anything.

You may not be trying to prove anything, but you certainly have proven your douchebaggery. Women are perfectly capable of defending themselves, we don't need "help" from people like you.

She's in-love with Luka Redgrave

You know, I never once got the impression that she held any romantic feelings for Luka. Taking the time-manipulation aspect into account, the extent of Bayonetta's feelings for Luka seem to be mild bemusement mixed with Platonic Big Brother Syndrome.

Which, honestly, I found terribly refreshing. When was the last time there was a primary female character that wasn't chained to a male protagonist as a love interest? Samus Aran pre Other M, Maya from Septerra Core?

 

[0thello]

I do not think this is a question MALES should be answering. Even in the height of misogyny males usually deny everything.

Behold, sexism.

What Bayonetta is isn't really sexist.
Though personally I just think its pandering to the pocket-mining demographic.

Maybe you need to EDUCATE yourself about SEXISM before you try to IDENTIFY it little guy.

Behold, someone trying to be a big man on the interwebz.
Scary shit.

I'm not trying to scare you, little guy. Neither am I trying to prove anything.

I like how you keep calling him "little guy" when clearly he has a higher post count than you.

Ok.

 

[mireko]

Sexist is the wrong word.

"Women are only good for housework and breeding" is sexist.

"I know, let's make a game about a strong, fantastic female character whose clothes fly off every minute so that sexually frustrated manchildren can get off on it" is exploitation (in several senses). It uses a fantasy of liberated and available female sexuality to sell a product.

The former is outright harmful. The latter is questionable in and of itself and represents a pretty cynical attitude to selling a product, but the actual content is only really as bad as its effects. If the fantasy shapes how people view the real world, then it can be extremely harmful. We've all met guys who treat women as objects or consider themselves to have a right to behave voyeuristically or inappropriately because they're used to achieving sexual gratification without having to negotiate consent with a real person.

The whole game is intentionally absurd (as I've mentioned before, it's Hideki Kamiya), so I felt the fanservice was going for laughs rather than erections. I suspect that taking the partial nudity and weird close-ups out of the context of the game is what makes it seem cynical and questionable, because every single aspect of the game is so over-the-top and deranged that it only makes sense that the fanservice would follow suit.

In a game like this, it would probably be more questionable if it were less intrusive, since it's been taken to such an extreme that it doesn't really register as titillation anymore. This is the kind of game that steals the motorcycle of fanservice, jump-starts it by flipping it off and rides it into space to go kill God.


If you have the time (and if you're reading this, I'm guessing you do), you should read Shimazaki's posts on the character designs too. Interesting stuff.


Part 1 - Bayonetta
Part 2 - Jeanne
Part 3 - Rodin and Enzo
Part 4 - Luka

[sub]Why yes, I am a fan of Bayonetta. Surprising, huh?[/sub]

 

[0thello]

I do not think this is a question MALES should be answering. Even in the height of misogyny males usually deny everything.

That would be sexism. Everyone is entitled to their opinion even if they disagree with yours. And that's a pretty big generalization make about nearly three and a half billion people, you know?

No it would NOT be sexism.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, that doesn't make their opinion relevant or accurate given the situation. Most of the world is patriarchal, that's the damn truth, males have been historically (and continue to be) bad at indentifying sexism, this is a social thing, it is not inherant to our gender. I do not believe the original question is a question that males should be answering. They aren't the possible victims of this sort of sexism, therefore their opinions are of LESS value on this situation. It's similar to the opinions of a dentist isn't as valuable as the opinions of an optician should I want to inquire about my eyesight.

 

[D_987]

its jusr a terrible game thats a clone of many many many many ma... (you get the point) other like GOW but games, however i especially HATED the abuse of one of my favourite songs (Fly me to the moon) and wised to see the ratpack rise and destroy sega for heretic abuse of one of the last remaining bastions of unspoiled good music

(wow i've been ranting alot today)

I'm not sure if you're joking, I thought it had at least been accepted by the majority that in terms of gameplay and style Bayonetta is an innovative take on the beat-em-up genre, with not only some of the best set pieces that don't use quick-time events in a game, but easily one of the best combat systems...

In case you're being serious however, the lead designer on Bayonetta created Devil May Cry; the series God of War took a lot from [well, that and Rygar]. Bayonetta's version of Fly me to the moon is hilarious and suited the game perfectly.

As for the topic in question; I don't beleive it's sexist at all; for reasons as simple as although the character is sexuality they are not a character defined by their sexuality; and it all fits in with the games presentation and style anyway.

 

[jamesworkshop]

I do not think this is a question MALES should be answering. Even in the height of misogyny males usually deny everything.

That would be sexism. Everyone is entitled to their opinion even if they disagree with yours. And that's a pretty big generalization make about nearly three and a half billion people, you know?

No it would NOT be sexism.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, that doesn't make their opinion relevant or accurate given the situation. Most of the world is patriarchal, that's the damn truth, males have been historically (and continue to be) bad at indentifying sexism, this is a social thing, it is not inherant to our gender. I do not believe the original question is a question that males should be answering. They aren't the possible victims of this sort of sexism, therefore their opinions are of LESS value on this situation. It's similar to the opinions of a dentist isn't as valuable as the opinions of an optician should I want to inquire about my eyesight.

Dentists have medical training where excatly does every woman on the planet train to indentify sexism, being a woman is not a profession, nor is owning a vagina a qualification

Most of the world is patriarchal, that's the damn truth, males have been historically (and continue to be) bad at indentifying sexism

you also need to make the link I think most people would struggle to be a patriatch and not know what sexism is otherwise they would not be able to act in a sexist manner.


Reality is this

Bayonetta is a silly game about cheesecake taking it seriously is massivly missing the point.

In summary no reason for anyone to care

sexist or empowering is a silly dichotomy anyway

 

[thedeathscythe]

Bayonetta is a collection of fetishes with no personality beyond what is commonly considered 'sexy' by heterosexual men. She is the most blatant, shameless sex object in video game history.

Haven't played that many games, have you?

Hahaha, yeah, I was gonna say that the series Dead or Alive is filled with like 12 Bayonettas, and there's even volleyball and photoshoot spin offs that just further fuel this.

As someone said earlier, I think her appearance is sexist but her character in the game, all appearance aside, is not.

 

[0thello]

I do not think this is a question MALES should be answering. Even in the height of misogyny males usually deny everything.

That would be sexism. Everyone is entitled to their opinion even if they disagree with yours. And that's a pretty big generalization make about nearly three and a half billion people, you know?

No it would NOT be sexism.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, that doesn't make their opinion relevant or accurate given the situation. Most of the world is patriarchal, that's the damn truth, males have been historically (and continue to be) bad at indentifying sexism, this is a social thing, it is not inherant to our gender. I do not believe the original question is a question that males should be answering. They aren't the possible victims of this sort of sexism, therefore their opinions are of LESS value on this situation. It's similar to the opinions of a dentist isn't as valuable as the opinions of an optician should I want to inquire about my eyesight.

Dentists have medical training where excatly does every woman on the planet train to indentify sexism, being a woman is not a profession, nor is owning a vagina a qualification

Most of the world is patriarchal, that's the damn truth, males have been historically (and continue to be) bad at indentifying sexism

you also need to make the link I think most people would struggle to be a patriatch and not know what sexism is otherwise they would not be able to act in a sexist manner.


Reality is this

Bayonetta is a silly game about cheesecake taking it seriously is massivly missing the point.

In summary no reason for anyone to care

sexist or empowering is a silly dichotomy anyway

(not me)Dentists have medical training where excatly does every woman on the planet train to indentify sexism, being a woman is not a profession, nor is owning a vagina a qualification(not me)

They needn?t train to identify it in the manner which you refer to ?training?; I never needed to train to identify that when cops stopped me for ?routine checks? it was based on racism, ergo racial profiling. Women can have the misfortune of having the higher likelihood of being the victims of this type of sexism and therefore have ?experience?. Since all women have this higher likelihood (in the patriarchal societies that have access to this video game) more have the higher likelihood of being able to identify it. I am however not arguing all women can identify sexism, hell every group has their ignorant, difference or worse, collaborators.

(not me)you also need to make the link I think most people would struggle to be a patriatch and not know what sexism is otherwise they would not be able to act in a sexist manner.(not me)

Well that right there is ridiculous. Educate yourself on male privilege please; otherwise I can see this ending up horribly. But to help you out male privilege is about how society accommodates you. It?s about advantages you have that you think are normal. Patriarchs often think that the sexism they espouse or create: qualify as ?normal?. They don?t think its sexism, that?s my point, that males in patriarchal societies (males especially over the internet whom are gamers) are so mired in their privilege that they aren?t very good at identifying sexism. Hell I?d extend that but I don't want to derail this topic any further. Therefore their consultation is of less value to me.

And who are you to tell anyone how seriously they should take anything? Yes the game is camp, yes the plot, characters and a lot about the game are OTT but that is not a defence worth using since it is a flimsy one at best. The game is a complete example of the male gaze.

You say ?sexist and empowering? is a silly Dichotomy but then I do wonder whether someone in your position can say that with any real credibility behind it.

 

[jamesworkshop]

I do not think this is a question MALES should be answering. Even in the height of misogyny males usually deny everything.

That would be sexism. Everyone is entitled to their opinion even if they disagree with yours. And that's a pretty big generalization make about nearly three and a half billion people, you know?

No it would NOT be sexism.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, that doesn't make their opinion relevant or accurate given the situation. Most of the world is patriarchal, that's the damn truth, males have been historically (and continue to be) bad at indentifying sexism, this is a social thing, it is not inherant to our gender. I do not believe the original question is a question that males should be answering. They aren't the possible victims of this sort of sexism, therefore their opinions are of LESS value on this situation. It's similar to the opinions of a dentist isn't as valuable as the opinions of an optician should I want to inquire about my eyesight.

Dentists have medical training where excatly does every woman on the planet train to indentify sexism, being a woman is not a profession, nor is owning a vagina a qualification

Most of the world is patriarchal, that's the damn truth, males have been historically (and continue to be) bad at indentifying sexism

you also need to make the link I think most people would struggle to be a patriatch and not know what sexism is otherwise they would not be able to act in a sexist manner.


Reality is this

Bayonetta is a silly game about cheesecake taking it seriously is massivly missing the point.

In summary no reason for anyone to care

sexist or empowering is a silly dichotomy anyway

(not me)Dentists have medical training where excatly does every woman on the planet train to indentify sexism, being a woman is not a profession, nor is owning a vagina a qualification(not me)

They needn?t train to identify it in the manner which you refer to ?training?; I never needed to train to identify that when cops stopped me for ?routine checks? it was based on racism, ergo racial profiling. Women can have the misfortune of having the higher likelihood of being the victims of this type of sexism and therefore have ?experience?. Since all women have this higher likelihood (in the patriarchal societies that have access to this video game) more have the higher likelihood of being able to identify it. I am however not arguing all women can identify sexism, hell every group has their ignorant, difference or worse, collaborators.

(not me)you also need to make the link I think most people would struggle to be a patriatch and not know what sexism is otherwise they would not be able to act in a sexist manner.(not me)

Well that right there is ridiculous. Educate yourself on male privilege please; otherwise I can see this ending up horribly. But to help you out male privilege is about how society accommodates you. It?s about advantages you have that you think are normal. Patriarchs often think that the sexism they espouse or create: qualify as ?normal?. They don?t think its sexism, that?s my point, that males in patriarchal societies (males especially over the internet whom are gamers) are so mired in their privilege that they aren?t very good at identifying sexism. Hell I?d extend that but I don't want to derail this topic any further. Therefore their consultation is of less value to me.

And who are you to tell anyone how seriously they should take anything? Yes the game is camp, yes the plot, characters and a lot about the game are OTT but that is not a defence worth using since it is a flimsy one at best. The game is a complete example of the male gaze.

You say ?sexist and empowering? is a silly Dichotomy but then I do wonder whether someone in your position can say that with any real credibility behind it.

you infer rasicm because you presumptously assume the police to be rasict


what value you place is irrelevant as a non arbiter

sexist or empowering is what i said, the game has the very real possibility or being neither

also you really are making far too many assertions needlessly, male privilage....really

(males especially over the internet whom are gamers)
That's an opionon not a fact, any link here...how does privilage change depending on any particular males interest in the videogame market or non interest depending on an individuals circumstance because heaven knows people might not all be cardboard cutouts

 

[0thello]

I do not think this is a question MALES should be answering. Even in the height of misogyny males usually deny everything.

That would be sexism. Everyone is entitled to their opinion even if they disagree with yours. And that's a pretty big generalization make about nearly three and a half billion people, you know?

No it would NOT be sexism.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, that doesn't make their opinion relevant or accurate given the situation. Most of the world is patriarchal, that's the damn truth, males have been historically (and continue to be) bad at indentifying sexism, this is a social thing, it is not inherant to our gender. I do not believe the original question is a question that males should be answering. They aren't the possible victims of this sort of sexism, therefore their opinions are of LESS value on this situation. It's similar to the opinions of a dentist isn't as valuable as the opinions of an optician should I want to inquire about my eyesight.

Dentists have medical training where excatly does every woman on the planet train to indentify sexism, being a woman is not a profession, nor is owning a vagina a qualification

Most of the world is patriarchal, that's the damn truth, males have been historically (and continue to be) bad at indentifying sexism

you also need to make the link I think most people would struggle to be a patriatch and not know what sexism is otherwise they would not be able to act in a sexist manner.


Reality is this

Bayonetta is a silly game about cheesecake taking it seriously is massivly missing the point.

In summary no reason for anyone to care

sexist or empowering is a silly dichotomy anyway

(not me)Dentists have medical training where excatly does every woman on the planet train to indentify sexism, being a woman is not a profession, nor is owning a vagina a qualification(not me)

They needn?t train to identify it in the manner which you refer to ?training?; I never needed to train to identify that when cops stopped me for ?routine checks? it was based on racism, ergo racial profiling. Women can have the misfortune of having the higher likelihood of being the victims of this type of sexism and therefore have ?experience?. Since all women have this higher likelihood (in the patriarchal societies that have access to this video game) more have the higher likelihood of being able to identify it. I am however not arguing all women can identify sexism, hell every group has their ignorant, difference or worse, collaborators.

(not me)you also need to make the link I think most people would struggle to be a patriatch and not know what sexism is otherwise they would not be able to act in a sexist manner.(not me)

Well that right there is ridiculous. Educate yourself on male privilege please; otherwise I can see this ending up horribly. But to help you out male privilege is about how society accommodates you. It?s about advantages you have that you think are normal. Patriarchs often think that the sexism they espouse or create: qualify as ?normal?. They don?t think its sexism, that?s my point, that males in patriarchal societies (males especially over the internet whom are gamers) are so mired in their privilege that they aren?t very good at identifying sexism. Hell I?d extend that but I don't want to derail this topic any further. Therefore their consultation is of less value to me.

And who are you to tell anyone how seriously they should take anything? Yes the game is camp, yes the plot, characters and a lot about the game are OTT but that is not a defence worth using since it is a flimsy one at best. The game is a complete example of the male gaze.

You say ?sexist and empowering? is a silly Dichotomy but then I do wonder whether someone in your position can say that with any real credibility behind it.

you infer rasicm because you presumptously assume the police to be rasict


what value you place is irrelevant as a non arbiter

sexist or empowering is what i said, the game has the very real possibility or being neither

also you really are making far too many assertions needlessly, male privilage....really

(males especially over the internet whom are gamers)
That's an opionon not a fact, any link here...how does privilage change depending on any particular males interest in the videogame market or non interest depending on an individuals circumstance because heaven knows people might not all be cardboard cutouts

I don't presume the police to be racists, I believe the system they operate under to be. Your IGNORANCE is beginning to get on my nerves actually, and I don't care for your accusatory tone and I do not care for your pathetic attempt to tell me what my presumptions are.

(you)That's an opionon not a fact, any link here...(ypu)
http://www.derailingfordummies.com/#opinion

No offence, but I don't really deem you worthy of any more of my time on this topic especially. If you want to take this further, feel free to PM me but I can't guarantee a response.

 

[Dense_Electric]

It's funny that you go on about "male privilege" when females are just as privileged in modern western society, albeit in different ways.

 

[DustyDrB]

[sub]Why yes, I am a fan of Bayonetta. Surprising, huh?[/sub]

I tried the demo about a year ago and it was just too weird (I remember the music made me slam on the mute button). Then I gave it a real chance a few weeks ago and loved it. I just beat it two nights ago (that last boss' portal of insta-kill made me rage the first few times). The gameplay is so fun (Though I'm not good at it. I only got an chapter award higher than the Stone Award twice). I'm not going to make an argument for Bayonetta as a deep character, but she's not just sex-appeal as some people are saying. She has other characteristics: Wit, and compassion (after a while).

Overall, this isn't a game meant for deep thinking. It's just fun and challenging.