Poll: Bayonetta Sexist?

[0thello]

I do not think this is a question MALES should be answering. Even in the height of misogyny males usually deny everything.

That would be sexism. Everyone is entitled to their opinion even if they disagree with yours. And that's a pretty big generalization make about nearly three and a half billion people, you know?

No it would NOT be sexism.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, that doesn't make their opinion relevant or accurate given the situation. Most of the world is patriarchal, that's the damn truth, males have been historically (and continue to be) bad at indentifying sexism, this is a social thing, it is not inherant to our gender. I do not believe the original question is a question that males should be answering. They aren't the possible victims of this sort of sexism, therefore their opinions are of LESS value on this situation. It's similar to the opinions of a dentist isn't as valuable as the opinions of an optician should I want to inquire about my eyesight.

 

[D_987]

its jusr a terrible game thats a clone of many many many many ma... (you get the point) other like GOW but games, however i especially HATED the abuse of one of my favourite songs (Fly me to the moon) and wised to see the ratpack rise and destroy sega for heretic abuse of one of the last remaining bastions of unspoiled good music

(wow i've been ranting alot today)

I'm not sure if you're joking, I thought it had at least been accepted by the majority that in terms of gameplay and style Bayonetta is an innovative take on the beat-em-up genre, with not only some of the best set pieces that don't use quick-time events in a game, but easily one of the best combat systems...

In case you're being serious however, the lead designer on Bayonetta created Devil May Cry; the series God of War took a lot from [well, that and Rygar]. Bayonetta's version of Fly me to the moon is hilarious and suited the game perfectly.

As for the topic in question; I don't beleive it's sexist at all; for reasons as simple as although the character is sexuality they are not a character defined by their sexuality; and it all fits in with the games presentation and style anyway.

 

[jamesworkshop]

I do not think this is a question MALES should be answering. Even in the height of misogyny males usually deny everything.

That would be sexism. Everyone is entitled to their opinion even if they disagree with yours. And that's a pretty big generalization make about nearly three and a half billion people, you know?

No it would NOT be sexism.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, that doesn't make their opinion relevant or accurate given the situation. Most of the world is patriarchal, that's the damn truth, males have been historically (and continue to be) bad at indentifying sexism, this is a social thing, it is not inherant to our gender. I do not believe the original question is a question that males should be answering. They aren't the possible victims of this sort of sexism, therefore their opinions are of LESS value on this situation. It's similar to the opinions of a dentist isn't as valuable as the opinions of an optician should I want to inquire about my eyesight.

Dentists have medical training where excatly does every woman on the planet train to indentify sexism, being a woman is not a profession, nor is owning a vagina a qualification

Most of the world is patriarchal, that's the damn truth, males have been historically (and continue to be) bad at indentifying sexism

you also need to make the link I think most people would struggle to be a patriatch and not know what sexism is otherwise they would not be able to act in a sexist manner.


Reality is this

Bayonetta is a silly game about cheesecake taking it seriously is massivly missing the point.

In summary no reason for anyone to care

sexist or empowering is a silly dichotomy anyway

 

[thedeathscythe]

Bayonetta is a collection of fetishes with no personality beyond what is commonly considered 'sexy' by heterosexual men. She is the most blatant, shameless sex object in video game history.

Haven't played that many games, have you?

Hahaha, yeah, I was gonna say that the series Dead or Alive is filled with like 12 Bayonettas, and there's even volleyball and photoshoot spin offs that just further fuel this.

As someone said earlier, I think her appearance is sexist but her character in the game, all appearance aside, is not.

 

[0thello]

I do not think this is a question MALES should be answering. Even in the height of misogyny males usually deny everything.

That would be sexism. Everyone is entitled to their opinion even if they disagree with yours. And that's a pretty big generalization make about nearly three and a half billion people, you know?

No it would NOT be sexism.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, that doesn't make their opinion relevant or accurate given the situation. Most of the world is patriarchal, that's the damn truth, males have been historically (and continue to be) bad at indentifying sexism, this is a social thing, it is not inherant to our gender. I do not believe the original question is a question that males should be answering. They aren't the possible victims of this sort of sexism, therefore their opinions are of LESS value on this situation. It's similar to the opinions of a dentist isn't as valuable as the opinions of an optician should I want to inquire about my eyesight.

Dentists have medical training where excatly does every woman on the planet train to indentify sexism, being a woman is not a profession, nor is owning a vagina a qualification

Most of the world is patriarchal, that's the damn truth, males have been historically (and continue to be) bad at indentifying sexism

you also need to make the link I think most people would struggle to be a patriatch and not know what sexism is otherwise they would not be able to act in a sexist manner.


Reality is this

Bayonetta is a silly game about cheesecake taking it seriously is massivly missing the point.

In summary no reason for anyone to care

sexist or empowering is a silly dichotomy anyway

(not me)Dentists have medical training where excatly does every woman on the planet train to indentify sexism, being a woman is not a profession, nor is owning a vagina a qualification(not me)

They needn?t train to identify it in the manner which you refer to ?training?; I never needed to train to identify that when cops stopped me for ?routine checks? it was based on racism, ergo racial profiling. Women can have the misfortune of having the higher likelihood of being the victims of this type of sexism and therefore have ?experience?. Since all women have this higher likelihood (in the patriarchal societies that have access to this video game) more have the higher likelihood of being able to identify it. I am however not arguing all women can identify sexism, hell every group has their ignorant, difference or worse, collaborators.

(not me)you also need to make the link I think most people would struggle to be a patriatch and not know what sexism is otherwise they would not be able to act in a sexist manner.(not me)

Well that right there is ridiculous. Educate yourself on male privilege please; otherwise I can see this ending up horribly. But to help you out male privilege is about how society accommodates you. It?s about advantages you have that you think are normal. Patriarchs often think that the sexism they espouse or create: qualify as ?normal?. They don?t think its sexism, that?s my point, that males in patriarchal societies (males especially over the internet whom are gamers) are so mired in their privilege that they aren?t very good at identifying sexism. Hell I?d extend that but I don't want to derail this topic any further. Therefore their consultation is of less value to me.

And who are you to tell anyone how seriously they should take anything? Yes the game is camp, yes the plot, characters and a lot about the game are OTT but that is not a defence worth using since it is a flimsy one at best. The game is a complete example of the male gaze.

You say ?sexist and empowering? is a silly Dichotomy but then I do wonder whether someone in your position can say that with any real credibility behind it.

 

[jamesworkshop]

I do not think this is a question MALES should be answering. Even in the height of misogyny males usually deny everything.

That would be sexism. Everyone is entitled to their opinion even if they disagree with yours. And that's a pretty big generalization make about nearly three and a half billion people, you know?

No it would NOT be sexism.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, that doesn't make their opinion relevant or accurate given the situation. Most of the world is patriarchal, that's the damn truth, males have been historically (and continue to be) bad at indentifying sexism, this is a social thing, it is not inherant to our gender. I do not believe the original question is a question that males should be answering. They aren't the possible victims of this sort of sexism, therefore their opinions are of LESS value on this situation. It's similar to the opinions of a dentist isn't as valuable as the opinions of an optician should I want to inquire about my eyesight.

Dentists have medical training where excatly does every woman on the planet train to indentify sexism, being a woman is not a profession, nor is owning a vagina a qualification

Most of the world is patriarchal, that's the damn truth, males have been historically (and continue to be) bad at indentifying sexism

you also need to make the link I think most people would struggle to be a patriatch and not know what sexism is otherwise they would not be able to act in a sexist manner.


Reality is this

Bayonetta is a silly game about cheesecake taking it seriously is massivly missing the point.

In summary no reason for anyone to care

sexist or empowering is a silly dichotomy anyway

(not me)Dentists have medical training where excatly does every woman on the planet train to indentify sexism, being a woman is not a profession, nor is owning a vagina a qualification(not me)

They needn?t train to identify it in the manner which you refer to ?training?; I never needed to train to identify that when cops stopped me for ?routine checks? it was based on racism, ergo racial profiling. Women can have the misfortune of having the higher likelihood of being the victims of this type of sexism and therefore have ?experience?. Since all women have this higher likelihood (in the patriarchal societies that have access to this video game) more have the higher likelihood of being able to identify it. I am however not arguing all women can identify sexism, hell every group has their ignorant, difference or worse, collaborators.

(not me)you also need to make the link I think most people would struggle to be a patriatch and not know what sexism is otherwise they would not be able to act in a sexist manner.(not me)

Well that right there is ridiculous. Educate yourself on male privilege please; otherwise I can see this ending up horribly. But to help you out male privilege is about how society accommodates you. It?s about advantages you have that you think are normal. Patriarchs often think that the sexism they espouse or create: qualify as ?normal?. They don?t think its sexism, that?s my point, that males in patriarchal societies (males especially over the internet whom are gamers) are so mired in their privilege that they aren?t very good at identifying sexism. Hell I?d extend that but I don't want to derail this topic any further. Therefore their consultation is of less value to me.

And who are you to tell anyone how seriously they should take anything? Yes the game is camp, yes the plot, characters and a lot about the game are OTT but that is not a defence worth using since it is a flimsy one at best. The game is a complete example of the male gaze.

You say ?sexist and empowering? is a silly Dichotomy but then I do wonder whether someone in your position can say that with any real credibility behind it.

you infer rasicm because you presumptously assume the police to be rasict


what value you place is irrelevant as a non arbiter

sexist or empowering is what i said, the game has the very real possibility or being neither

also you really are making far too many assertions needlessly, male privilage....really

(males especially over the internet whom are gamers)
That's an opionon not a fact, any link here...how does privilage change depending on any particular males interest in the videogame market or non interest depending on an individuals circumstance because heaven knows people might not all be cardboard cutouts

 

[0thello]

I do not think this is a question MALES should be answering. Even in the height of misogyny males usually deny everything.

That would be sexism. Everyone is entitled to their opinion even if they disagree with yours. And that's a pretty big generalization make about nearly three and a half billion people, you know?

No it would NOT be sexism.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, that doesn't make their opinion relevant or accurate given the situation. Most of the world is patriarchal, that's the damn truth, males have been historically (and continue to be) bad at indentifying sexism, this is a social thing, it is not inherant to our gender. I do not believe the original question is a question that males should be answering. They aren't the possible victims of this sort of sexism, therefore their opinions are of LESS value on this situation. It's similar to the opinions of a dentist isn't as valuable as the opinions of an optician should I want to inquire about my eyesight.

Dentists have medical training where excatly does every woman on the planet train to indentify sexism, being a woman is not a profession, nor is owning a vagina a qualification

Most of the world is patriarchal, that's the damn truth, males have been historically (and continue to be) bad at indentifying sexism

you also need to make the link I think most people would struggle to be a patriatch and not know what sexism is otherwise they would not be able to act in a sexist manner.


Reality is this

Bayonetta is a silly game about cheesecake taking it seriously is massivly missing the point.

In summary no reason for anyone to care

sexist or empowering is a silly dichotomy anyway

(not me)Dentists have medical training where excatly does every woman on the planet train to indentify sexism, being a woman is not a profession, nor is owning a vagina a qualification(not me)

They needn?t train to identify it in the manner which you refer to ?training?; I never needed to train to identify that when cops stopped me for ?routine checks? it was based on racism, ergo racial profiling. Women can have the misfortune of having the higher likelihood of being the victims of this type of sexism and therefore have ?experience?. Since all women have this higher likelihood (in the patriarchal societies that have access to this video game) more have the higher likelihood of being able to identify it. I am however not arguing all women can identify sexism, hell every group has their ignorant, difference or worse, collaborators.

(not me)you also need to make the link I think most people would struggle to be a patriatch and not know what sexism is otherwise they would not be able to act in a sexist manner.(not me)

Well that right there is ridiculous. Educate yourself on male privilege please; otherwise I can see this ending up horribly. But to help you out male privilege is about how society accommodates you. It?s about advantages you have that you think are normal. Patriarchs often think that the sexism they espouse or create: qualify as ?normal?. They don?t think its sexism, that?s my point, that males in patriarchal societies (males especially over the internet whom are gamers) are so mired in their privilege that they aren?t very good at identifying sexism. Hell I?d extend that but I don't want to derail this topic any further. Therefore their consultation is of less value to me.

And who are you to tell anyone how seriously they should take anything? Yes the game is camp, yes the plot, characters and a lot about the game are OTT but that is not a defence worth using since it is a flimsy one at best. The game is a complete example of the male gaze.

You say ?sexist and empowering? is a silly Dichotomy but then I do wonder whether someone in your position can say that with any real credibility behind it.

you infer rasicm because you presumptously assume the police to be rasict


what value you place is irrelevant as a non arbiter

sexist or empowering is what i said, the game has the very real possibility or being neither

also you really are making far too many assertions needlessly, male privilage....really

(males especially over the internet whom are gamers)
That's an opionon not a fact, any link here...how does privilage change depending on any particular males interest in the videogame market or non interest depending on an individuals circumstance because heaven knows people might not all be cardboard cutouts

I don't presume the police to be racists, I believe the system they operate under to be. Your IGNORANCE is beginning to get on my nerves actually, and I don't care for your accusatory tone and I do not care for your pathetic attempt to tell me what my presumptions are.

(you)That's an opionon not a fact, any link here...(ypu)
http://www.derailingfordummies.com/#opinion

No offence, but I don't really deem you worthy of any more of my time on this topic especially. If you want to take this further, feel free to PM me but I can't guarantee a response.

 

[Dense_Electric]

It's funny that you go on about "male privilege" when females are just as privileged in modern western society, albeit in different ways.

 

[DustyDrB]

[sub]Why yes, I am a fan of Bayonetta. Surprising, huh?[/sub]

I tried the demo about a year ago and it was just too weird (I remember the music made me slam on the mute button). Then I gave it a real chance a few weeks ago and loved it. I just beat it two nights ago (that last boss' portal of insta-kill made me rage the first few times). The gameplay is so fun (Though I'm not good at it. I only got an chapter award higher than the Stone Award twice). I'm not going to make an argument for Bayonetta as a deep character, but she's not just sex-appeal as some people are saying. She has other characteristics: Wit, and compassion (after a while).

Overall, this isn't a game meant for deep thinking. It's just fun and challenging.

 

[jamesworkshop]

I do not think this is a question MALES should be answering. Even in the height of misogyny males usually deny everything.

That would be sexism. Everyone is entitled to their opinion even if they disagree with yours. And that's a pretty big generalization make about nearly three and a half billion people, you know?

No it would NOT be sexism.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, that doesn't make their opinion relevant or accurate given the situation. Most of the world is patriarchal, that's the damn truth, males have been historically (and continue to be) bad at indentifying sexism, this is a social thing, it is not inherant to our gender. I do not believe the original question is a question that males should be answering. They aren't the possible victims of this sort of sexism, therefore their opinions are of LESS value on this situation. It's similar to the opinions of a dentist isn't as valuable as the opinions of an optician should I want to inquire about my eyesight.

Dentists have medical training where excatly does every woman on the planet train to indentify sexism, being a woman is not a profession, nor is owning a vagina a qualification

Most of the world is patriarchal, that's the damn truth, males have been historically (and continue to be) bad at indentifying sexism

you also need to make the link I think most people would struggle to be a patriatch and not know what sexism is otherwise they would not be able to act in a sexist manner.


Reality is this

Bayonetta is a silly game about cheesecake taking it seriously is massivly missing the point.

In summary no reason for anyone to care

sexist or empowering is a silly dichotomy anyway

(not me)Dentists have medical training where excatly does every woman on the planet train to indentify sexism, being a woman is not a profession, nor is owning a vagina a qualification(not me)

They needn?t train to identify it in the manner which you refer to ?training?; I never needed to train to identify that when cops stopped me for ?routine checks? it was based on racism, ergo racial profiling. Women can have the misfortune of having the higher likelihood of being the victims of this type of sexism and therefore have ?experience?. Since all women have this higher likelihood (in the patriarchal societies that have access to this video game) more have the higher likelihood of being able to identify it. I am however not arguing all women can identify sexism, hell every group has their ignorant, difference or worse, collaborators.

(not me)you also need to make the link I think most people would struggle to be a patriatch and not know what sexism is otherwise they would not be able to act in a sexist manner.(not me)

Well that right there is ridiculous. Educate yourself on male privilege please; otherwise I can see this ending up horribly. But to help you out male privilege is about how society accommodates you. It?s about advantages you have that you think are normal. Patriarchs often think that the sexism they espouse or create: qualify as ?normal?. They don?t think its sexism, that?s my point, that males in patriarchal societies (males especially over the internet whom are gamers) are so mired in their privilege that they aren?t very good at identifying sexism. Hell I?d extend that but I don't want to derail this topic any further. Therefore their consultation is of less value to me.

And who are you to tell anyone how seriously they should take anything? Yes the game is camp, yes the plot, characters and a lot about the game are OTT but that is not a defence worth using since it is a flimsy one at best. The game is a complete example of the male gaze.

You say ?sexist and empowering? is a silly Dichotomy but then I do wonder whether someone in your position can say that with any real credibility behind it.

you infer rasicm because you presumptously assume the police to be rasict


what value you place is irrelevant as a non arbiter

sexist or empowering is what i said, the game has the very real possibility or being neither

also you really are making far too many assertions needlessly, male privilage....really

(males especially over the internet whom are gamers)
That's an opionon not a fact, any link here...how does privilage change depending on any particular males interest in the videogame market or non interest depending on an individuals circumstance because heaven knows people might not all be cardboard cutouts

I don't presume the police to be racists, I believe the system they operate under to be. Your IGNORANCE is beginning to get on my nerves actually, and I don't care for your accusatory tone and I do not care for your pathetic attempt to tell me what my presumptions are.

(you)That's an opionon not a fact, any link here...(ypu)
http://www.derailingfordummies.com/#opinion

No offence, but I don't really deem you worthy of any more of my time on this topic especially. If you want to take this further, feel free to PM me but I can't guarantee a response.

I don't really deem you worthy

wow

apparently you are soo powerless you can dismiss people with a waive

talk about being under privilaged

pathetic attempt to tell me what my presumptions are.

and what did you say earlier about every male + games + internet

you gave me all the ammo i need, you told me your presumtions quite openly

you are bigoted, self rightous and self pitying

not an attractive combination

 

[moretimethansense]

Let me answer this with another question, is Dante sexist because he is an attractive male whose a bit flirty and doesn't like to wear a shirt?

This, this guy right here ios the reason I don't need to think up an intellegent and rational arguement that would quickly have devolved in to a long angry spiel.
Thank you kind sir, thank you for sparing me the inevitable suspension.

OP:
In case yyou can't tell, I say no.

 

[mireko]

[sub]Why yes, I am a fan of Bayonetta. Surprising, huh?[/sub]

I tried the demo about a year ago and it was just too weird (I remember the music made me slam on the mute button). Then I gave it a real chance a few weeks ago and loved it. I just beat it two nights ago (that last boss' portal of insta-kill made me rage the first few times). The gameplay is so fun (Though I'm not good at it. I only got an chapter award higher than the Stone Award twice). I'm not going to make an argument for Bayonetta as a deep character, but she's not just sex-appeal as some people are saying. She has other characteristics: Wit, and compassion (after a while).

Overall, this isn't a game meant for deep thinking. It's just fun and challenging.

That was roughly my experience with it too. The demo didn't click at first, but when you get into it it's fiercely addictive. Hard mode is even more intense, and then there's non-stop climax mode (hard mode without witch time). I like that the hard mode isn't just "the same, but with less health!" like you get in so many action games. They introduce tough enemies at the very beginning of the game, and it doesn't let up at all.

And yet it's not impossible or cheap. This is the only 360 game for which I unlocked all the achievements, so it does it all right.

I really wish they'd have skipped the quicktime events that show up something like twice in the entire game, but that's pretty much my only complaint. I don't mind J-pop, so I really like the version of "Fly me to the Moon" they use, however heretical some may find it.

But yeah. Persona 4 it ain't, and that's not really the point either. I will still disagree with people calling the game dumb, however. It's a fantastically intelligent game.

I don't mean the writing or the story, those are both pretty silly. It's the gameplay. The gameplay characterizes Bayonetta as much as the cutscenes (if not more), and the visual design puts it all together. It's so well-designed, well-composed and fun that calling it stupid seems highly disingenuous.

More than anything, it's like a perfect piece of music. Maybe it doesn't have any social, political, psychological or philosophical meaning, but when you listen to it you can still go "holy shit I can't believe you just did that".


Now I've gushed about a game that I like for about six paragraphs. Should I put a spoiler tag on it? Who knows.

[sub]I'm becoming a bit of a Kamiya fanboy. After Devil May Cry, Okami and Bayonetta.. I'm very excited to see what his next projects will be.[/sub]

 

[Samechiel]

http://www.derailingfordummies.com/#opinion

I see you're from Shakesville. That explains quite a bit, really.

 

[Terminal Blue]

and what did you say earlier about every male + games + internet

you gave me all the ammo i need, you told me your presumtions quite openly

you are bigoted, self rightous and self pitying

not an attractive combination

While Othello's post was not terribly well phrased, you know as well as I do that it's a general rule that men do not see male privilege. Why would they? Male privilege is normal.. it's not noticeable unless you're excluded from it.

As someone who has 'trained' to be able to identify gender privilege and other such things, I can safely that being a man is a pretty massive disadvantage in being able to see these things. There is such an intense oversaturation and overfocus on catering to men in visual media that it's not even obvious. It's more obvious when it doesn't happen or when something contradictory happens than when it does.

This is particularly true in the games industry, which until very recently has always tended to assume a white (or Japanese in this case) male, heterosexual audience in all cases everywhere. As men (men who sleep with women, specifically) we can always count on having easy access to compliant sexual fantasies (pornography, sexually suggestive films or games, etc). This is so normal we (perhaps rightly) consider it an intrinsic right, but unlike other rights its hardly universal.

It is very tempting when someone says something like 'men don't see privilege' to a) take it as a universal, which clearly isn't true, and b) to overreact and get defensive. Actually, there's a grain of truth there which needs to be pulled out and examined.

 

[ZephrC]

ZOMG! She's a woman AND ATTRACTIVE! That's TOTALLY SEXIST! Real women are never attractive! Men who like seeing attractive women in entertainment are all filthy pigs, and women who like seeing attractive women must be lesbians or something, because it's not like normal women prefer characters that are attractive to ones that aren't. Just like men prefer playing games as ugly guys. That's why every guy in any video game ever is hideously ugly, right?

 

[Terminal Blue]

ZOMG! She's a woman AND ATTRACTIVE! That's TOTALLY SEXIST! Real women are never attractive! Men who like seeing attractive women in entertainment are all filthy pigs, and women who like seeing attractive women must be lesbians or something, because it's not like normal women prefer characters that are attractive to ones that aren't.

Example 1 [http://idiotduck.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/adriana-lima-doutzen-kroes-supermodel-obsession.jpg]

Example 2 [http://topnews.in/light/files/danielle-l.jpg]

Do you see the difference?