Poll: Can pornography exist in a sexism free society?

Something Amyss

Aswyng and Amyss
Dec 3, 2008
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Inglorious891 said:
Depends what you want done about that mistreatment. If you are Ok with it, then pornography, as it is now, wouldn't change, but if you find such things dangeriously objectifying, and you want such things to go away, then you'd want pornography to change.
So if I'm fine with porn as it is onscreen (even if a lot of it isn't my cup of tea), but dislike the treatment of the performers, I should vote for change? I only ask (and I know I'm probably taking an internet poll way too seriously) because that strikes me as sending the wrong message.

I mean, basically, take the filthiest, most disgusting porn you can imagine, and as long as it's legal and the people are consenting, I'm fine with it. I wouldn't want to watch it (probably >.> DON'T JUDGE ME!) but I would be fine with it existing.

I'm pro-porn and pro-sex workers, is basically what I'm saying.
 

carnex

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Jan 9, 2008
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Dragonbums said:
As long as the porn video is coming from 100% consented adults, that weren't backed into a corner to do it (ala I need the money real bad, and I don't want to do this, but I have no choice), and greater society is aware that this video was made under ethical, clean conditions than porn is totally fine with me.
Wait, what's wrong with people going that route to earn money when they can't do it in other way. Should they starve?
 

Dragonbums

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May 9, 2013
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carnex said:
Dragonbums said:
As long as the porn video is coming from 100% consented adults, that weren't backed into a corner to do it (ala I need the money real bad, and I don't want to do this, but I have no choice), and greater society is aware that this video was made under ethical, clean conditions than porn is totally fine with me.
Wait, what's wrong with people going that route to earn money when they can't do it in other way. Should they starve?
Did I say they should starve? I don't remember saying they should starve. Don't try to build a strawman argument out of something I never meant to say.


Just like non consensual porn vids, it's really damn sad when someone male or female has to do something they really don't like because they have no other fucking choice.

I.e shitty porn directors forcing porn actors/actresses into doing things they aren't comfortable with by dangling money or no money scenarios over their heads.
 

carnex

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Jan 9, 2008
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Dragonbums said:
carnex said:
Dragonbums said:
As long as the porn video is coming from 100% consented adults, that weren't backed into a corner to do it (ala I need the money real bad, and I don't want to do this, but I have no choice), and greater society is aware that this video was made under ethical, clean conditions than porn is totally fine with me.
Wait, what's wrong with people going that route to earn money when they can't do it in other way. Should they starve?
Did I say they should starve? I don't remember saying they should starve. Don't try to build a strawman argument out of something I never meant to say.


Just like non consensual porn vids, it's really damn sad when someone male or female has to do something they really don't like because they have no other fucking choice.

I.e shitty porn directors forcing porn actors/actresses into doing things they aren't comfortable with by dangling money or no money scenarios over their heads.
Sorry, I was overly melodramatic in my reply, should have responded with more tact and less hyperbole.

What you described can be applied to so many jobs put there. I worked at jobs I despised. I know plenty of others that have same experience. Porn is, or it should be at least, just another employment opportunity. Unfortunately it's not due to social stigma it has now (and due to most people seeing sex as something really intimate and not for sharing around especially when you are in a committed relationship), but thanks to the private shows and small productions and many other factors stigma is slowly getting deflated.

But that doesn't change the fact that people do things they don't like or don't want to do because there is a financial or other reward in the end. It's not tied to one industry in particular, it's just nature of a limited availability of workplaces.
 

mecegirl

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May 19, 2013
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Dragonbums said:
carnex said:
Dragonbums said:
As long as the porn video is coming from 100% consented adults, that weren't backed into a corner to do it (ala I need the money real bad, and I don't want to do this, but I have no choice), and greater society is aware that this video was made under ethical, clean conditions than porn is totally fine with me.
Wait, what's wrong with people going that route to earn money when they can't do it in other way. Should they starve?
Did I say they should starve? I don't remember saying they should starve. Don't try to build a strawman argument out of something I never meant to say.


Just like non consensual porn vids, it's really damn sad when someone male or female has to do something they really don't like because they have no other fucking choice.

I.e shitty porn directors forcing porn actors/actresses into doing things they aren't comfortable with by dangling money or no money scenarios over their heads.
What you describe sounds like rape to me. To my knowledge most performers have a general idea of what acts they are expected to perform. But if a director changes the script last minute and threatens to withhold payment that's rape by coercion. Especially if it happens to happen after filming has started. But even that sounds "better" than what ex actress Corina Taylor said happened to her. At least in that scenario there is some verbal communication.

I'm gonna quote her, so content warning i guess.

When I did a scene for Red Light District, Vince Voyer gave me a ride to the set and he asked me for ?road head?. He called me a whore and told me I had to do it. So I did. When I arrived to the set I expected to do a vaginal girl boy scene. But during the scene with male porn star Eric Everhard, he forced himself anally into me and would not stop. I yelled at him to stop and screamed no over and over but he would not stop. The pain became too much and I was in shock and my body went limp. I couldn?t fight him off anymore. After the scene, they wouldn?t give me a ride home. I called a taxi and went to a medical clinic to check me out due to the severe pain I was in. A day later I received a phone call from Vince to keep my mouth shut about the rape. He threatened me that I didn?t know who I was messing with and that his edited footage of what happened would prove me a liar. When I went to Red Light District to get my check, I was only paid for vaginal, not the anal rape. The anal scene was so traumatizing that I hid out for six weeks.
https://www.thepinkcross.org/pinkcross-articles/october-2011/ex-porn-star-corina-taylor-story
 

Ten Foot Bunny

I'm more of a dishwasher girl
Mar 19, 2014
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Zachary Amaranth said:
Tommy was The Who's big Rock Opera, which was about a "deaf dumb and blind" child named Tommy. One of the songs is called "Fiddle About" and involves sexual abuse. And then there's a line near the end of the album that always creeped me the fuck out by itself, but in the context that Townshend may have himself been sexually abused (or the alternative, that he was actually into kiddie porn), it just....

Yeah, maybe you don't want to know.

Unfortunately, the album also has some really kickass songs.
One of my favorite albums of all time...

Remember though, John Entwistle wrote Fiddle About (as well as Cousin Kevin) and, ever since the album's release in '69, Townshend praised Entwistle for doing so, stating that he could never have written the song himself given what happened in his own childhood.

Townshend alluded to his abuse for over 30 years before the whole "scandal" occurred.
 

Thaluikhain

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mecegirl said:
What you describe sounds like rape to me. To my knowledge most performers have a general idea of what acts they are expected to perform. But if a director changes the script last minute and threatens to withhold payment that's rape by coercion.
Or demands that she pay for the cost of the filming herself. Max Hardcore liked doing that, also selecting women from out of the country with no local support base, taking them to isolated areas where it's just them and a bunch of guys on his side before springing that on them.
 

carnex

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Jan 9, 2008
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I'm aware of multiple horrific practices in porn industry, often borderline human trafficking too. But that's, in great part due to twin evils of social stigma and by large part illegality of sex industry. If all aspects of sex industry was legalized and social stigma was washed (you can't wash it away totally, many people still would not be romantic with ex sex actress, and I'm free to assume wast majority wouldn't even consider such with active one) people who are in driving position would have mach less leverage and it will fall down to rest of the film industry level of abuse. Which is still horrific to be honest.
 

slacker2

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May 22, 2011
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Your premise is fundamentally flawed and makes your post basically a loaded question; sexualising is not objectification. There's nothing wrong with sex, and I can't believe this needs to be said. Being interested only in the sex that you're seeing on your screen when you want to get off is really noi different than being interested only in ,well, the ... sex you're having ... when you're having sex ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. Being interested only on an aspect of somebody at a given time doesn't mean that you equate that person only with that thing. If you're hot and I don't know anything else about you, then all I know about you is that you're hot. What exactly is controversial about that?
 

Jesterscup

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Sep 9, 2014
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"Can pornography exist in a sexism free society?" - short answer, yes, but not in the form we know it.

Longer answer ( in parts).

SO firstly Lets think about the actors, Sure if they are doing it in full awareness of what they are doing and why they are doing it, and they have no issues and are happy with that career, then who could have issues with that, they are actors, performers playing a role. That being said I know, and have known, many people who have been strippers, prostitutes, burlesque performers and drag queens who have stated that the have no issues with what they do, but generally that not really the case, these sorts of career choices often have deep and long lasting implications on a persons attitude towards life and other people ( especially those of the gender paying to 'enjoy' their performance ). The sad fact is that ( yes anecdotally ) in my experience most people who take part in these sorts of roles are subverting themselves in somewhat, which is often damaging.

Yes this is a state that can be avoided in large parts, but the cause here is important, the effect on peoples psyche when they are objectified on a regular basis, the effect comes (in part at least) from being objectified by your audience.

Now for the porn itself: sadly it is the case that in most porn women are objectified, objects of lust and desire, breasts & thighs ( and other parts) there for your viewing pleasure. that is the definition of objectification. This isn't the case for all porn, but it is the case for the majority of porn, and, I suspect it's the nature of the beast.

As has been pointed out, sexualising does not always = objectification, but that is an effect that happens all too often. it is entirely possible to be an incredible object of lust and desire while being 'who' you are ( or who you want to be ) being sexual is not being objectified.

Now for laziness: Yup laziness. this applies to games as it does to porn. There is a market that will pay for something, this something has issues, but is profitable. you can make a little more effort, perhaps spend a little more money and create something that does not have (so many) issues. Part of the problem is that these media are already profitable, and partly because men dominate the workplaces ( yes in porn, women are unlikely to be anything other than actresses ), with no challenges to the status quo in the creation process, the the product being profitable, why would this change? - Not that I agree with this ethically, but it's the state of the world.

slacker2 said:
If you're hot and I don't know anything else about you, then all I know about you is that you're hot.
You always know more, there is always context. A woman in a porn film has a lot of context, and most of that context is "all i exist for is your sexual fulfilment" I'd class that as objectification. I don't disagree with most of your post in concept, but concept and reality are not the same.

Being interested only on an aspect of somebody at a given time doesn't mean that you equate that person only with that thing.
I disagree, again in context, do you ever think about anything other than a woman's sexual aspect in porn? I doubt you worry about whether she's paying her rent. Sure, if that applied to someone walking down the street ( see context again) I'd be worried if you were thinking of her in exactly the same way.


It's probably unlikely that porn will ever not be sexist, but it's a nice goal. But I doubt whether the majority of men buying porn care whether it's sexist, and thats where the profit is.
 

Adeptus Aspartem

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I'm just gonna comment on the banning option.

How can anyone seriously consider banning anything nowadays? It's not a grown-up approach to a situation if you just try to shut it out completly.
It doesnt work. Not with alcohol, not with drugs and definitly not with porn. Why try the same thing over and over and expect diffrent results? That's foolish.
 

Thaluikhain

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Adeptus Aspartem said:
I'm just gonna comment on the banning option.

How can anyone seriously consider banning anything nowadays? It's not a grown-up approach to a situation if you just try to shut it out completly.
It doesnt work. Not with alcohol, not with drugs and definitly not with porn. Why try the same thing over and over and expect diffrent results? That's foolish.
Not entirely true...it has worked with, for example, alcohol in certain areas. How well a ban works depends in large part on how the local culture views the issue.

Having said that, can't think off the top of my head of any places in the west where banning porn would work.
 

oreso

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Mar 12, 2012
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I'm more concerned with the working conditions of the clothing industry than I am with the sexy media industry. There's no reason why we can't demand ethical standards for both though, of course. I'm just a bit skeptical of folks who only crusade on the sex industry; it's probably unfair, but it makes me think their objectives are more anti-sex and puritanical rather than providing support that workers want and need.
 

Jesterscup

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oreso said:
I'm more concerned with the working conditions of the clothing industry than I am with the sexy media industry. There's no reason why we can't demand ethical standards for both though, of course. I'm just a bit skeptical of folks who only crusade on the sex industry; it's probably unfair, but it makes me think their objectives are more anti-sex and puritanical rather than providing support that workers want and need.
Generally people campaign on those issues that are close to them, or that they have had experience of. One of the biggest charities in the UK is for donkeys , DONKEYS! - hey I'm sure its a good cause, personally I'd rather give my time/money to something I feel more worthwhile.

Sure there are certainly some people out there who campaign for the banning of porn, for their own moralistic agenda. But there are others that campaign for better treatment of people who are little more than sex workers, and thats a largely laudable goal. I'm sure if asked most campaigners from either side would decry the treatment of sweatshop workers, but there is only so much a person can do. Beyond that, a "why don't you fight this too" is a kinda rubbish argument against someone campaigning for anything, as there will always be something they don't have the time/ability to campaign against. The porn industry has some huge issues, that spill over into human trafficking, sexual abuse, child abuse and more, I can understand why someone would see that as more of an issue than sweatshops or donkeys, but I'm not going to denounce anyone working to make the world better.
 

Gorrath

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Lieju said:
Gorrath said:
Most healthy minded people have no issue separating fantasy and reality.
And there I'd disagree.
If you don't have enough information about reality then mistaking fantasy for truth is easy.
If you have no context for what risks are included, how things feel like to the opposite sex, what the usual look for genitalia even is, why wouldn't porn misinform you and create false expectations?

Banning them is not the answer, however, but increased education and encouraging dialogue between partners is.
And of course bad porn can be critiqued.

Bad porn in itself (just like any entertainment) doesn't make you sexist or racist etc but it's a feedback loop that reinforces pre-existing attitudes.

You too are deluded on things, mistaking fantasy for reality. I do too. Everyone does. We are fed misconceptions all the time through media and cursory knowledge of subjects we either don't need to have indepth knowledge of, or don't care.

Some (even most) of those misconceptions are harmless. Some less so.
Sorry, I've not been on the site the last few days and so didn't get a chance to reply. I agree with everything you said here, except that I think you are missing a crucial piece here. Anyone can be fed false information and draw bad conclusions from bad evidence, but to equate that with not having a mechanism to differentiate between fantasy and reality seems absurd. Lots of people have ideas about war and the military that are influenced by the only information they have about such things, movies and the media. If those people were taken and shown what a war was actually like, they'd very quickly be able to differentiate between the fantasy depictions they had been shown and the new information they were given. A person who can't tell the difference between reality and fantasy would not be able to differentiate between movies and actual war even after being shown what actual war was like.

So sure, plenty of people can and are misinformed, but that is not the same as being unable to tell the difference between reality and fantasy. What your description above entails is someone being bereft of proper understanding. They don't believe the fantasy because they can't tell it from reality, they simply have no basis in reality in which to compare the fantasy (false information) they have been given. If healthy minded people were generally unable to tell the difference between reality and fantasy, I'm sure the impending invasion of Sauron would be much higher on people's list of problems that need dealing with. And I don't mean that in a snarky way, it just illustrates that most people have no issue knowing that Middle Earth isn't a real place and their ability to make that distinction isn't the same as simply being misinformed about some facts.
 

Jesterscup

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Gorrath said:
So sure, plenty of people can and are misinformed, but that is not the same as being unable to tell the difference between reality and fantasy. What your description above entails is someone being bereft of proper understanding.
I don't think its about Fantasy Vs. Reality, it's about reinforcing certain attitudes that exist and are held by, if not a majority, then a sizeable minority of men. Ys sometimes these misconceptions are clear and easily dismissed ( I see no dragons, experiencing war will clearly change my attitude to it ) but others already exist and are permitted to some extent by society.

If someone feels that it's ok to treat a woman a certain way ( without respect for instance), and their own choice of fantasy porn reinforces that is that a good thing?
 

Lieju

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Gorrath said:
So sure, plenty of people can and are misinformed, but that is not the same as being unable to tell the difference between reality and fantasy. What your description above entails is someone being bereft of proper understanding. They don't believe the fantasy because they can't tell it from reality, they simply have no basis in reality in which to compare the fantasy (false information) they have been given. If healthy minded people were generally unable to tell the difference between reality and fantasy, I'm sure the impending invasion of Sauron would be much higher on people's list of problems that need dealing with. And I don't mean that in a snarky way, it just illustrates that most people have no issue knowing that Middle Earth isn't a real place and their ability to make that distinction isn't the same as simply being misinformed about some facts.
But the only reason people know Middle Earth isn't real is because they have a context for it. They know dwarves and elves and wizards aren't real, certainly that they don't exist now, because they have a working knowledge of what the world is like and that Middle Earth is a non-existent place.

My cousin thought Pokemon are real and live in Japan. Not because she was dumb, but because she was like 4 and lacked the knowledge on the world to tell what is real.

There are of course mental illnesses that can make it difficult to tell if something happened to you personally for example, or you can have delusions, but that's not what I was talking about.

And to go back to your example of Middle-Earth, it may be fantasy,but it still reinforces pre-existing attitudes and prejudices. For example, that elves are white. Because of course beautiful and wise higher creatures are white. Those kinds of things you don't even notice.
 

Piorn

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I don't really get what sexism has to do with porn.
It's just business, both at the producing end and the consuming end. You don't know, and never will know any of these women personally anyways, so treating them as anything other than wank material while you wank to them is just lying to yourself. You might as well have dinner with a sock puppet at this point.
I'm sure all those women have personality, hopes, dreams and ambitions, just like every human, but there's still such a huge timespace divide that you shouldn't even bother.
If I asked the cashier for their life story every time I went to a store, I'd never get anything done either, but am I objectifying cashiers? no, I just don't care.