Poll: Do you like Israel?

[Jumplion]

I'm not even going to read past the first page of this thread as no doubt this will get ugly. This is one of the few topics that I just don't like to get into because it gets very personal for me very fast, so I'll just put in my opinion lickety-split (probably not, really);

I like Israel. My family lives in Israel, so of course I like it. They live in Tel Aviv, so they're not close to any of the conflicts and whatnot, but I still worry for them. I like Israel in that it pretty much symbolizes some civility in the Middle East, at least compared to the terror groups that frequently populate the surrounding countries. Israel is very modern in many aspects, the real estate industry is booming over there right now (though the prices will probably crash sometime), and it's pretty technologically advanced in certain industrialized areas.

Do I support Israel on the other hand? Not entirely, no. I hardly support terrorist groups like Hamas and the like that have openly stated they want to slaughter every single Jew living in Israel either, of course, but not everything Israel does is commendable. Duh. Just like how everything the US does isn't that great, but people don't call for blood on the US Senate every time we fuck up. Israel can do some pretty stupid shit some times.

Does that mean we should up and move 7+ million people just to appease others who want some desert piece of land? I really don't know why anyone would suggest that. It's like instead of dealing with the bullies (the terrorist groups), we take the victims (Israel, in this scenario anyway) away from the bullies so that nobody is hurt. That's backwards logic when dealing with this issue in that it doesn't deal with it at all. Israel is here to stay whether anyone likes it or not, and if it were removed thousands or even millions of people would be left homeless, nowhere to go, and potentially killed. Up and removing them and saying "Nobody is going to settle here!" just ignores the thousands of years of conflict and tension that started this whole thing in the first place and will only lead to another incident like this happening over and over again.

Now, personally, I think the best solution would be to have a Secular One-State nation. That probably won't happen for a long time, but it's a solution. Regardless, Israel isn't going anywhere unless you want to commit mass eviction, mass migration, or mass murder. How that's a solution in any regard, I have no idea.

 

[TheIronRuler]

When you are done dragging children to jail, murdering your neighbors, and acting like in a dick in the region, maybe I will consider something other than 'no'.

Damn, stop making these posts without explaining yourself.
Not only you but the others that think the same and are too lazy or don't even know how to discuss the manner, they just throw accusations.

The problem is, we can shove the proof in your face, and you will still discard it, so why bother.

Right.
Here it goes.
A bloke in the video says that he's 9. He says.
We can't arrest them unless they're over 12. Doesn't make any sense.
After the police car stopped, the kid ran to the woman holding the camera and she began shouting in Hebrew "Child, Child" which means that they can't legally arrest him.
Then a few others come in, one claims to be his mother so they offer her to come with him but she refuses and instead wants him to get off the car.
...
Why did the car stop in the first place?
Why was there a camera stationed there?
It was a planned ambush. The waiting behind the stone wall and threw a few rocks at the vehicle. Then it stopped, two military police came out and began running after the child.
I'm not sure whether they can do that or not, but it was a planned ambush so that it could be on tape. What was also there is the child THROWING ROCKS AT A POLICE CAR.
You saw his run at the car after it passed the fence? Throw something, you hear a thid - the rock hit the car. The camera was positioned as an ambush.
This is another attempt to make media propaganda.

 

[TheIronRuler]

-snip-
As far as I understand the city is pretty-well suited to that plan considering how all of the old-Palestinian stuff is on the East side already (from what I understand). Would you want to other half governed by a sovereign state of Palestine, or Jordan?

The autonomy in the west bank governs itself very well.
The problem here is Gaza, again.
If Hezbollah didn't have a foothold there, I would gladly have these people become my neighbors.

 

[6_Qubed]

I am of the opinion that Israel produces some irrationally gorgeous women.

Which is not much of a selling point, I admit, and it's just an opinion to boot, but in the absence of anything bad to say, I think Israel is a pretty cool guy.

 

[Fappy]

-snip-
As far as I understand the city is pretty-well suited to that plan considering how all of the old-Palestinian stuff is on the East side already (from what I understand). Would you want to other half governed by a sovereign state of Palestine, or Jordan?

The autonomy in the west bank governs itself very well.
The problem here is Gaza, again.
If Hezbollah didn't have a foothold there, I would gladly have these people become my neighbors.

Yeah Gaza is a big issue, especially considering the fact that if a state of Palestine is created... who gets Gaza? If they do, then you've got big fat Israel sitting between that and West Bank. GG, time to build the world's largest overpass.

 

[Samus Aaron]

Sure, I like Israel. Hell, I have more hope for the success of Israel than I do for my own country, the US. The US can't get anything done due to gridlock politics, while Israel, despite being under the control of many heavily conservative politicians, is holding its own against wars on all sides (even inside) while still being one of the most innovative countries in that region. And if Israel's history is based on bloodshed and displacement, let's not forget the history of the US as well, which is founded on the blood of millions on Native Americans. That's not to say that Israel's founding in Palestinian land was completely fair (one could even argue that since there were no established nations in that area informally known as Palestine, the creation of the state of Israel didn't infringe upon any pre-exsting sovereignty) but compared to other countries, it's founding was relatively free of harm to the previous population. So yeah, I support Israel, though, I admit, I do this with reservation.

 

[Dr Snakeman]

When you are done dragging children to jail, murdering your neighbors, and acting like in a dick in the region, maybe I will consider something other than 'no'.

Damn, stop making these posts without explaining yourself.
Not only you but the others that think the same and are too lazy or don't even know how to discuss the manner, they just throw accusations.

The problem is, we can shove the proof in your face, and you will still discard it, so why bother.

Wow. Absolutely no context at all. That's great. And if you don't speak Arabic or Hebrew, you can assume that the people in the video are saying whatever the hell you want them to say. It can be interpreted however you want, depending on your preexisting bias.

Did you ever stop to think that maybe the kid in question actually did something to merit police interrogation? And it's not like they tackled him and threw the cuffs on him. They seemed very professional and calm about it, given the circumstances. It was the women who were flipping out. And if making people act hysterical when you arrest someone that they don't want you to is a human rights violation, then every police force in the world should be tried for crimes against humanity.

Israel's done some pretty uncool stuff, I'll admit. But this? This is just life in a highly unstable region, not senseless violence.

 

[TheIronRuler]

I am of the opinion that Israel produces some irrationally gorgeous women.

Which is not much of a selling point, I admit, and it's just an opinion to boot, but in the absence of anything bad to say, I think Israel is a pretty cool guy.

It's because we're a melting pot of cultures and races.
Here you'll find all kinds of flavors.

 

[KAPTAINmORGANnWo4life]

If this was the 50's or 60's, I'd be very much against the State of Israel for strictly political and humanitarian reasons.

Nowadays, though, Israel is just as much a homeland to the people living there now as it was a homeland for the Arabs who lived there in the days of the Ottomans, and later the Mandate. This leaves me in a conflicted state of mind towards Israel: On one hand, I can't ignore that the Israeli Government is routinely just as xenophobic and violent as their neighbours, if not worse, and I also can't ignore that Israel just reeks of being "Little America"; on another hand, the government's actions don't reflect on the people there, and the Arab peoples who want Palestine back are going about things in a completely counter-productive way; and on another hand, as a Christian, it pains me to see my faith's two brothers at each other's throats over an issue where they both have valid arguments. Antisemitism was never as common or pronounced in modern Mesopotamia as it has been since World War 2, and there are many Jews which I have observed, both in and outside of Israel, who are very hateful towards Muslims.

 

[Fappy]

I am of the opinion that Israel produces some irrationally gorgeous women.

Which is not much of a selling point, I admit, and it's just an opinion to boot, but in the absence of anything bad to say, I think Israel is a pretty cool guy.

It's because we're a melting pot of cultures and races.
Here you'll find all kinds of flavors.

The U.S. is like that too... except that all of our women dye their hair blonde. >.>

 

[Dr Snakeman]

(for those who don't know, that's a Merkava an Israeli main battle tank (and I'm sure if your an intelligent person you can figure out the rest with a little imagination))

All joking aside, cool country.

O_O

psshhh...hahahaha!

Oh, god, that's just terrible. And really funny. My favorite kind of humor, really: the kind of stuff that makes you go "I can't believe you went there".

Yes, I know I'm going to hell, why do you ask?

 

[TheIronRuler]

-snip-
Yeah Gaza is a big issue, especially considering the fact that if a state of Palestine is created... who gets Gaza? If they do, then you've got big fat Israel sitting between that and West Bank. GG, time to build the world's largest overpass.

If you glance at the original UN '48 plan you'll see what they had in mind.

-snip-

Wow. Absolutely no context at all. That's great. And if you don't speak Arabic or Hebrew, you can assume that the people in the video are saying whatever the hell you want them to say. It can be interpreted however you want, depending on your preexisting bias.

Did you ever stop to think that maybe the kid in question actually did something to merit police interrogation? And it's not like they tackled him and threw the cuffs on him. They seemed very professional and calm about it, given the circumstances. It was the women who were flipping out. And if making people act hysterical when you arrest someone that they don't want you to is a human rights violation, then every police force in the world should be tried for crimes against humanity.

Israel's done some pretty uncool stuff, I'll admit. But this? This is just life in a highly unstable region, not senseless violence.

I speak Hebrew fluently and I've studied Arabic for three years, so I can make out most of it.
Let me direct you to my comment, I'll just copy it:
---

Right.
Here it goes.
A bloke in the video says that he's 9. He says.
We can't arrest them unless they're over 12. Doesn't make any sense.
After the police car stopped, the kid ran to the woman holding the camera and she began shouting in Hebrew "Child, Child" which means that they can't legally arrest him.
Then a few others come in, one claims to be his mother so they offer her to come with him but she refuses and instead wants him to get off the car.
...
Why did the car stop in the first place?
Why was there a camera stationed there?
It was a planned ambush. The waiting behind the stone wall and threw a few rocks at the vehicle. Then it stopped, two military police came out and began running after the child.
I'm not sure whether they can do that or not, but it was a planned ambush so that it could be on tape. What was also there is the child THROWING ROCKS AT A POLICE CAR.
You saw his run at the car after it passed the fence? Throw something, you hear a thid - the rock hit the car. The camera was positioned as an ambush.
This is another attempt to make media propaganda.
---
Here it is, I hope you learned something.
He threw rocks at the car. It was a planned ambush for the camera to catch something interesting. Did you notice that they didn't do anything to the camera?
Because everything they did was legal.

 

[Dr Snakeman]

-snip-
Yeah Gaza is a big issue, especially considering the fact that if a state of Palestine is created... who gets Gaza? If they do, then you've got big fat Israel sitting between that and West Bank. GG, time to build the world's largest overpass.

If you glance at the original UN '48 plan you'll see what they had in mind.

-snip-

Wow. Absolutely no context at all. That's great. And if you don't speak Arabic or Hebrew, you can assume that the people in the video are saying whatever the hell you want them to say. It can be interpreted however you want, depending on your preexisting bias.

Did you ever stop to think that maybe the kid in question actually did something to merit police interrogation? And it's not like they tackled him and threw the cuffs on him. They seemed very professional and calm about it, given the circumstances. It was the women who were flipping out. And if making people act hysterical when you arrest someone that they don't want you to is a human rights violation, then every police force in the world should be tried for crimes against humanity.

Israel's done some pretty uncool stuff, I'll admit. But this? This is just life in a highly unstable region, not senseless violence.

I speak Hebrew fluently and I've studied Arabic for three years, so I can make out most of it.
Let me direct you to my comment, I'll just copy it:
---

Right.
Here it goes.
A bloke in the video says that he's 9. He says.
We can't arrest them unless they're over 12. Doesn't make any sense.
After the police car stopped, the kid ran to the woman holding the camera and she began shouting in Hebrew "Child, Child" which means that they can't legally arrest him.
Then a few others come in, one claims to be his mother so they offer her to come with him but she refuses and instead wants him to get off the car.
...
Why did the car stop in the first place?
Why was there a camera stationed there?
It was a planned ambush. The waiting behind the stone wall and threw a few rocks at the vehicle. Then it stopped, two military police came out and began running after the child.
I'm not sure whether they can do that or not, but it was a planned ambush so that it could be on tape. What was also there is the child THROWING ROCKS AT A POLICE CAR.
You saw his run at the car after it passed the fence? Throw something, you hear a thid - the rock hit the car. The camera was positioned as an ambush.
This is another attempt to make media propaganda.
---
Here it is, I hope you learned something.
He threw rocks at the car. It was a planned ambush for the camera to catch something interesting. Did you notice that they didn't do anything to the camera?
Because everything they did was legal.

Awesome. Anything to paint Israel as "teh wurst contree EVARRRRR!"

Again, not a huge fan, know they've done some bad stuff, but seriously, guys? Why not point your indignation towards a country that deserves it, like China?

 

[Comrade_Beric]

Many seem to believe that the entire reason for the conflict boils down to religion. While it is true that religion plays its role in both places, Palestine needs no religious excuse for their position.

Israel has to rely on religious literalism and international sympathy for the holocaust to excuse their behavior of stealing land, bombing civilians, and declaring their nation to be defined as racially Jewish. Palestinians need no such excuses. Some Arabs may speak of the conflict in religious terms, but their cause is political and, in my opinion, is entirely just. There are still people alive today who remember living on the land their fathers have owned for centuries. Palestinians are a group of people who, because of their non-Jewish status, have had their land simply taken from them and re-purposed for the occupation of a new, racially-defined, nation. I have nothing but sympathy for the Palestinians and to anyone who brings up the supposed terrorist acts done by them I say: Would the Russian Partisans or French Resistance have been as effective if they'd laid down their arms and begged the Nazis to only take half of Europe?

 

[Axelgear]

How can I not like Israel? The country's an artist's dream. Ancient buildings, hidden stories, religious drama, long-standing blood feuds, lies and more lies from organizations that seek to win hearts and minds from foreign powers... It's a gold mine for stories, art, and more.

I know that's probably a cold way to describe it but the rest is all politics, and I don't feel like getting into that.

 

[Sojoez]

I used to live in Greece, I've seen Israel in pictures and some movies. Just another Mediterranean country. Nice beaches, hot weather lots of rocks.
Overall, not bad.
Now politics on the other hand...

Yeah, no comment. Don't want to get involved.

 

[loc978]

They had a bloody start, but that wasn't their fault. The UN promised a jewish state and outlined them populating the mostly empty regions of then-Palestine... but after the jews began arriving and the Palestinians clamored to reject them, what did the UN do? They left the newly-minted mix of populations to sort it out themselves... and sort it out they did. This is how wars get started, folks.
Laying blame on any one group for that situation is a bit silly... and very much a moot point at this juncture.

As for Israel as it stands, though? Despite disagreeing with some of its leaders, I support it wholeheartedly. It's the only government in the region that's not a theocracy... and I would personally like to see any form of theocracy in the world brought low. Separating religion from statecraft the world over is the only way we'll ever see predominantly rational discussion in diplomacy.

 

[TheIronRuler]

Many seem to believe that the entire reason for the conflict boils down to religion. While it is true that religion plays its role in both places, Palestine needs no religious excuse for their position.

Israel has to rely on religious literalism and international sympathy for the holocaust to excuse their behavior of stealing land, bombing civilians, and declaring their nation to be defined as racially Jewish. Palestinians need no such excuses. Some Arabs may speak of the conflict in religious terms, but their cause is political and, in my opinion, is entirely just. There are still people alive today who remember living on the land their fathers have owned for centuries. Palestinians are a group of people who, because of their non-Jewish status, have had their land simply taken from them and re-purposed for the occupation of a new, racially-defined, nation. I have nothing but sympathy for the Palestinians and to anyone who brings up the supposed terrorist acts done by them I say: Would the Russian Partisans or French Resistance have been as effective if they'd laid down their arms and begged the Nazis to only take half of Europe?

That is so wrong I don't even know where to start correcting you.
...
First of all, your dear refugees.
We didn't deport them or force them out.
In '48 before the British left the Arab leaders told the local Muslims to leave mixed cities (both Jews and Muslims lived side by side) and flee away so that they won't be caught in the crossfire that will be the result from a war between the Arab nations and the fledgling Israel. Here. The refugees aren't returning because they left Israel out of their own choice.
If we let them in there would be a large percentage of Arabs here and in a democracy every single politician we ever had knows not to do that mistake. Basically, they're screwed since the Arabs are using them as an excuse while Israel doesn't want them.
...
Say hello to Zionism, a nationalism movement that believes the Jews to be a nation, and therefore entitled of their own land and country. Which isn't racism. It is not unlike French patriotism or British nationalism.
Reasons for choosing Israel as the place to have their country is so damn long that I could just tell you that in a PM or point you to a previous post of mine.
...
Say hello to about 1.3 Million Arabs currently living in Israel, comprising of about ~18% of the general population (last time I checked.) . They live in Israel their lives, work here, live here, go to hospitals, enjoy the welfare and pay taxes.
What? You didn't know that there are over one million Palestinians in Israel?
What? You didn't know that we have Muslim Parliament members and a party for Arabs?
What? You didn;t know we have Muslim court judges and lawyers? Doctors? Captains of the Industry?
But YOU SAID that they're supposed to be oppressed, because Israel took their land and threw out all of the Muslims!
I wonder what should I do... Maybe you're lying, or perhaps they are all just Druz!

 

[The-Epicly-Named-Man]

I know nothing about it, except for what the news told me and they never say anything good about anything.

Yeah this is pretty much how I feel. I mean, what I hear about the Gaza Strip is pretty awful, but I don't really know a lot about the situation. They get minus points for their secret service faking Irish passports though.

 

[TheIronRuler]

I used to live in Greece, I've seen Israel in pictures and some movies. Just another Mediterranean country. Nice beaches, hot weather lots of rocks.
Overall, not bad.
Now politics on the other hand...

Yeah, no comment. Don't want to get involved.

But the jellyfish that come to our beaches in August are just insane.