Poll: Do you like Israel?

[MortisLegio]

When I went there it was nice

EXCEPT that there was major fighting in Gaza the day my group got there so some sections of the tour were cut (for our own protection obviously) but other than that it was enjoyable

 

[Bunnymarn]

I was talking about the Palestinian refugees. If there is another large group of Arab refugees, I can't comment on that, since I don't know anything about it.

And in terms of your post to someone about nationalism - why on earth would you support nationalism? It's just a dangerous concept that is used to manipulate people. The only legitimate use for it is to inspire pride, but that invariably becomes excessive.

There is just one group of refugees, Palestinian.
...
About nationalism, it;s the same as Patriotism, which is loving your country.
That's all there is to it. Nationalism is just a group which is one big loving family, whether it may be France, Spain, Cuba or Japan - they all have their national pride and they all feel they are a part of a nation.
That's nationalism. It isn't dangerous. When it's turned to - "my race is better than yours" ala Imperial Japan, THEN it is bad.

Okay, well, the refugees is the fault of both Israel and the Arabs, like I said. And I'm sure they had homes - the 1~ million of them didn't all just sleep on a random patch of ground.


I dislike patriotism as well. The idea that I should love one bit of land more than another, just because I happened to be born there is ridiculous. And take Europe for example, if France and Spain became one country, the same nationalism would be promoted throughout the Franco-Spain region, but if you did the opposite, and made more countries, you'd have even more different tangents of nationalism. Me being subject some form of nationalism over another, just because that's where the borders for the country were decided is completely absurd.

 

[Ickorus]

Don't know much about Israel except I had a friend who came from there once when I was a kid.

I have seen the news and from what I gather despite the news saying how evil the country is and such crap it seems to me Israel is just defending it's land and it's people, the civilian casualties in their war tend to be because the people Israel are fighting are cowards and fight from civilian populated areas.

 

[TheIronRuler]

-snip-

Okay, well, the refugees is the fault of both Israel and the Arabs, like I said. And I'm sure they had homes - the 1~ million of them didn't all just sleep on a random patch of ground.


I dislike patriotism as well. The idea that I should love one bit of land more than another, just because I happened to be born there is ridiculous. And take Europe for example, if France and Spain became one country, the same nationalism would be promoted throughout the Franco-Spain region, but if you did the opposite, and made more countries, you'd have even more different tangents of nationalism. Me being subject some form of nationalism over another, just because that's where the borders for the country were decided is completely absurd.

Nationalism is the secular answer to belonging to a group, a replacement for the church.
Now you belong to a group of your countrymen.
It's social evolution. Soon it'll be the Human Alliance.

 

[Ickorus]

-snip-

Okay, well, the refugees is the fault of both Israel and the Arabs, like I said. And I'm sure they had homes - the 1~ million of them didn't all just sleep on a random patch of ground.


I dislike patriotism as well. The idea that I should love one bit of land more than another, just because I happened to be born there is ridiculous. And take Europe for example, if France and Spain became one country, the same nationalism would be promoted throughout the Franco-Spain region, but if you did the opposite, and made more countries, you'd have even more different tangents of nationalism. Me being subject some form of nationalism over another, just because that's where the borders for the country were decided is completely absurd.

Nationalism is the secular answer to belonging to a group, a replacement for the church.
Now you belong to a group of your countrymen.
It's social evolution. Soon it'll be the Human Alliance.

The day we Humans ally together as a species can not come soon enough in my opinion.

 

[Stephen Wo]

I support Israel and feel for the plight of the Hebraic people. However, I also find it unfair of the military and political ruthlessness against Palestine, and the UNs full support.

 

[Veylon]

The land at the time was under-populated. Besides the great four sacred cities, there were no other cities besides one port town. That's it. The rest were agricultural villages.
Less than 100 thousand lived there at the time of the Turks, a mix of Jews and Muslims.
They carved their own land. The UN agreed on land that is suited for the Jews and for the Arabs. it decided the land almost equally (Jews got a large chunk of desert, but it's still desert)according to major population concentrations.
Most of the land belonged to no-one, it belonged to the Turks. It didn't belong to the Arabs because they didn't cultivate it. They could claim whatever they want but nobody gives a rats ass about investigating their claims.

I'd like to point out that this is dangerous logic. It's been used to justify expansion against American Indians, Australian Aborigines, San Tribesman, and Tibetan Herders. You aren't using the land the way I would, therefore I have the right to take it from you. You are also giving over all power to the UN to arbitrarily shift people around as though they were so many sacks of beans. God forbid you ever be on the other end of things.

 

[KingGolem]

I like Israel, for they are our staunchest allies against the Muslim hordes. Further, they fight mean. If we can use them against our enemies, I wholeheartedly support them. The only troubling thing about them is that they seem to think they have a divine right to the land. They don't, of course. Religious scripture is quite arbitrary in international politics, but they should still have Israel because, like I said, they will help us fight the Muslims.

 

[TheIronRuler]

Bunnymarn's post on page 2 was the best answer by far IMO, and he put it far better than I ever could.
TheIronRuler, please stop talking about it as if it's black and white ('everything is the Arabs' own fault!'), and being a bully on this thread. Just because some religious Jews wanted to live by Jerusalem does not mean that they had any right to settle there, your "nationalist movement" point is bullshit--the Palestinians ALREADY LIVED THERE. It's as absurd as if American Catholics suddenly just moved into the Vatican and demanded that they get to share the area. Sure, the UN made it legal, but that doesn't make it right. Israel has since committed many acts of dubious legality at best in the name of national defense, so I'm sure you're not a stickler for the law anyway. (I realize that this applies to many countries, including the US and most of Israel's enemies. I don't agree with them either)

They already lived there?
...
Yes. So did other Jews that lived there.
After the wake of the Zionism movement people began organizing ways to help immigrants immigrate to Israel and settle there, farm the land and etc.
The number of Jews living there grew, LEGALLY. They purchased the land from the original owners and lived there.
Fast forwards to British Mandate. Due to some inner-politics between the British and the Arabs the British enforced a cap on immigrants coming to Israel (Jews.) which lead the locals to resort to illegal actions and immigrate to Israel illegally.
Even after the holocaust the ships that came to Israel were turned around and these people that had survived in the cages of the Nazis had to live again in a cage, a British prison in Cyprus. It happened for three more years.
They 48' came along, Israelis declared their country in the borders of the UN resolution and a war broke out. If they hadn't did that I think that they would have been slaughtered.
...
Why am I a bully?
You hurt my feelings.

 

[Zaverexus]

As much as I probably should be, I'm not terribly familiar with the goings-on in Israel

 

[TheIronRuler]

The land at the time was under-populated. Besides the great four sacred cities, there were no other cities besides one port town. That's it. The rest were agricultural villages.
Less than 100 thousand lived there at the time of the Turks, a mix of Jews and Muslims.
They carved their own land. The UN agreed on land that is suited for the Jews and for the Arabs. it decided the land almost equally (Jews got a large chunk of desert, but it's still desert)according to major population concentrations.
Most of the land belonged to no-one, it belonged to the Turks. It didn't belong to the Arabs because they didn't cultivate it. They could claim whatever they want but nobody gives a rats ass about investigating their claims.

I'd like to point out that this is dangerous logic. It's been used to justify expansion against American Indians, Australian Aborigines, San Tribesman, and Tibetan Herders. You aren't using the land the way I would, therefore I have the right to take it from you. You are also giving over all power to the UN to arbitrarily shift people around as though they were so many sacks of beans. God forbid you ever be on the other end of things.

I didn't mean to use that argument, I was stating facts.
...
The UN did their best to draw a map according to the population centers of each ethnic group.
There were four holy cities, each populated by both Muslims and Jews. It was tough.

 

[Saelune]

As someone who is quite anti-religion, I am not too fond of Israel, since the whole conflict is so stupid. I dont hate the country as a country though or anything, I just hate when religion causes suffering.

 

[Bunnymarn]

Nationalism is the secular answer to belonging to a group, a replacement for the church.
Now you belong to a group of your countrymen.
It's social evolution. Soon it'll be the Human Alliance.

See, there's a difference. At least there is some degree of choice between different churches, and those in particular churches are usually like-minded, at least about one thing. I don't want to be told who I belong to. For all I know, my next door neighbour could be a racist who wants nothing more than to see black people eradicated from the planet. Why would I want to associate with that person, let alone be grouped with him in some new-age family? I know nothing of 99% of my 'countrymen' and somehow we belong together? If we're going to have nationalities, why can't it be, for example: "I'm from England, but I'm not English. I feel a much stronger connection to Spanish Culture, so I identify myself as a Spaniard." And then from there, one can change their "identity" (in that sense) as much as they like. Right now, nationalism and patriotism foster bigotry and the stereotyping of people.

 

[Liquidcool]

They do a lot of bad but it's better than the alternative of getting absolutely slaughtered by the rest of the middle east.

Ever hear of a guy called Salah ad-din?

 

[fgdfgdgd]

Well, considering that the little I know of Israel is from my Jewish friend, I think it best to abstain from condemnation or praise for lack of opposing views.

 

[Jake Lewis Clayton]

As a Roman Catholic, i have a strong interest in the holy cities for my own religous groups wish to take pilgrim trips to.

But would never condone spilling blood over what ammounts to dirt, even if it is sacred dirt.

Israel/Palastine should be split 50/50 in a way that means neither is too far from any sacred site, but neither should rule jerusalem city, it should be an inderpendant city state, with a democratic government made up of representatives from both muslim, jewish, christian and any other denomination which stands and gets the required number of votes.



I really feel 'Israel' as an idea has failed, maybe it's time to make the area a secular ruled zone.

 

[maninahat]

Without wanting to start a debate about it, I don't like Israel's attempts to shift all blame from itself, and I don't like its little propaganda videos which serve to that effect. That isn't an attempt to vindicate the Arabs, who also have their share of the blame in the current situation. Historically, they both have good claims for Jerusalem, and they both have done nefarious things to get at it.

The fact that both sides are willing to pretend they haven't ever done anything wrong is a problem they really need to confront.

 

[dui29aghgb]

I absolutely ADORE Israel. They are one of the true badasses in the world today. I guess when everybody hates you, you either step up or die.

 

[Tsaba]

(for those who don't know, that's a Merkava an Israeli main battle tank (and I'm sure if your an intelligent person you can figure out the rest with a little imagination))

All joking aside, cool country.