Poll: Do you like Israel?

[KingGolem]

I like Israel, for they are our staunchest allies against the Muslim hordes. Further, they fight mean. If we can use them against our enemies, I wholeheartedly support them. The only troubling thing about them is that they seem to think they have a divine right to the land. They don't, of course. Religious scripture is quite arbitrary in international politics, but they should still have Israel because, like I said, they will help us fight the Muslims.

 

[TheIronRuler]

Bunnymarn's post on page 2 was the best answer by far IMO, and he put it far better than I ever could.
TheIronRuler, please stop talking about it as if it's black and white ('everything is the Arabs' own fault!'), and being a bully on this thread. Just because some religious Jews wanted to live by Jerusalem does not mean that they had any right to settle there, your "nationalist movement" point is bullshit--the Palestinians ALREADY LIVED THERE. It's as absurd as if American Catholics suddenly just moved into the Vatican and demanded that they get to share the area. Sure, the UN made it legal, but that doesn't make it right. Israel has since committed many acts of dubious legality at best in the name of national defense, so I'm sure you're not a stickler for the law anyway. (I realize that this applies to many countries, including the US and most of Israel's enemies. I don't agree with them either)

They already lived there?
...
Yes. So did other Jews that lived there.
After the wake of the Zionism movement people began organizing ways to help immigrants immigrate to Israel and settle there, farm the land and etc.
The number of Jews living there grew, LEGALLY. They purchased the land from the original owners and lived there.
Fast forwards to British Mandate. Due to some inner-politics between the British and the Arabs the British enforced a cap on immigrants coming to Israel (Jews.) which lead the locals to resort to illegal actions and immigrate to Israel illegally.
Even after the holocaust the ships that came to Israel were turned around and these people that had survived in the cages of the Nazis had to live again in a cage, a British prison in Cyprus. It happened for three more years.
They 48' came along, Israelis declared their country in the borders of the UN resolution and a war broke out. If they hadn't did that I think that they would have been slaughtered.
...
Why am I a bully?
You hurt my feelings.

 

[Zaverexus]

As much as I probably should be, I'm not terribly familiar with the goings-on in Israel

 

[TheIronRuler]

The land at the time was under-populated. Besides the great four sacred cities, there were no other cities besides one port town. That's it. The rest were agricultural villages.
Less than 100 thousand lived there at the time of the Turks, a mix of Jews and Muslims.
They carved their own land. The UN agreed on land that is suited for the Jews and for the Arabs. it decided the land almost equally (Jews got a large chunk of desert, but it's still desert)according to major population concentrations.
Most of the land belonged to no-one, it belonged to the Turks. It didn't belong to the Arabs because they didn't cultivate it. They could claim whatever they want but nobody gives a rats ass about investigating their claims.

I'd like to point out that this is dangerous logic. It's been used to justify expansion against American Indians, Australian Aborigines, San Tribesman, and Tibetan Herders. You aren't using the land the way I would, therefore I have the right to take it from you. You are also giving over all power to the UN to arbitrarily shift people around as though they were so many sacks of beans. God forbid you ever be on the other end of things.

I didn't mean to use that argument, I was stating facts.
...
The UN did their best to draw a map according to the population centers of each ethnic group.
There were four holy cities, each populated by both Muslims and Jews. It was tough.

 

[Saelune]

As someone who is quite anti-religion, I am not too fond of Israel, since the whole conflict is so stupid. I dont hate the country as a country though or anything, I just hate when religion causes suffering.

 

[Bunnymarn]

Nationalism is the secular answer to belonging to a group, a replacement for the church.
Now you belong to a group of your countrymen.
It's social evolution. Soon it'll be the Human Alliance.

See, there's a difference. At least there is some degree of choice between different churches, and those in particular churches are usually like-minded, at least about one thing. I don't want to be told who I belong to. For all I know, my next door neighbour could be a racist who wants nothing more than to see black people eradicated from the planet. Why would I want to associate with that person, let alone be grouped with him in some new-age family? I know nothing of 99% of my 'countrymen' and somehow we belong together? If we're going to have nationalities, why can't it be, for example: "I'm from England, but I'm not English. I feel a much stronger connection to Spanish Culture, so I identify myself as a Spaniard." And then from there, one can change their "identity" (in that sense) as much as they like. Right now, nationalism and patriotism foster bigotry and the stereotyping of people.

 

[Liquidcool]

They do a lot of bad but it's better than the alternative of getting absolutely slaughtered by the rest of the middle east.

Ever hear of a guy called Salah ad-din?

 

[fgdfgdgd]

Well, considering that the little I know of Israel is from my Jewish friend, I think it best to abstain from condemnation or praise for lack of opposing views.

 

[Jake Lewis Clayton]

As a Roman Catholic, i have a strong interest in the holy cities for my own religous groups wish to take pilgrim trips to.

But would never condone spilling blood over what ammounts to dirt, even if it is sacred dirt.

Israel/Palastine should be split 50/50 in a way that means neither is too far from any sacred site, but neither should rule jerusalem city, it should be an inderpendant city state, with a democratic government made up of representatives from both muslim, jewish, christian and any other denomination which stands and gets the required number of votes.



I really feel 'Israel' as an idea has failed, maybe it's time to make the area a secular ruled zone.

 

[maninahat]

Without wanting to start a debate about it, I don't like Israel's attempts to shift all blame from itself, and I don't like its little propaganda videos which serve to that effect. That isn't an attempt to vindicate the Arabs, who also have their share of the blame in the current situation. Historically, they both have good claims for Jerusalem, and they both have done nefarious things to get at it.

The fact that both sides are willing to pretend they haven't ever done anything wrong is a problem they really need to confront.

 

[dui29aghgb]

I absolutely ADORE Israel. They are one of the true badasses in the world today. I guess when everybody hates you, you either step up or die.

 

[Tsaba]

(for those who don't know, that's a Merkava an Israeli main battle tank (and I'm sure if your an intelligent person you can figure out the rest with a little imagination))

All joking aside, cool country.

 

[TheIronRuler]

Without wanting to start a debate about it, I don't like Israel's attempts to shift all blame from itself, and I don't like its little propaganda videos which serve to that effect. That isn't an attempt to vindicate the Arabs, who also have their share of the blame in the current situation. Historically, they both have good claims for Jerusalem, and they both have done nefarious things to get at it.

The fact that both sides are willing to pretend they haven't ever done anything wrong is a problem they really need to confront.

You would have better chances of convincing the Japanese to admit their war crimes in WW2 than making either side admit they had committed atrocities.

 

[42]

you know how some people against israel say STOP THIS UNJUST OCCUPATION OF ARAB LAND when you look at Israel on the world map particularly the entire Middle East region as a whole, you'll notice that Israel is all but a speck on the map. you know compared the rest of the Middle East. Israel's fine, i think people in the middle east just need to get an air-conditioner so they can all cool off.

 

[Ancientgamer]

Well, as a country, I can't fault them for wanting to exist, but that doesn't change the fact that it's a fundamentally illegal and illegitimate nation. (Don't try to compare it to western colonialism, this happened in modern times and Palestine was a recognized nation, unlike the native Americans et al.)

On the other hand, the Palestinians have been completely unwilling to compromise, but they really shouldn't need to. Or at least it's clear to see why they believe they shouldn't need to.

 

[ScroogeMcDuck]

The real question is do I like like them? I'm not sure cause yesterday they pulled my hair but mommy says that's how they say they like me. I think that's a funny way to say you like someone, but they are kind of cute... Eww just kidding they probably have cooties, and that is gross. Yuck.

 

[Rodrigo Girao]

The better question may be: which one do you dislike less, Israel or its enemies?

 

[Jegsimmons]

Go israel! they deserve their country because so far they run the best running country and only GOOD democracy in that region.

and screw what the UN says about it.

 

[Korolev]

I support Israel's right to exist. But here's the thing: I also support Palestine's right to exist. I think the two should exist side by side.

Yeah, that'll never happen.

Let's just assume for the moment that the Bible is meant to be taken literally (which, given how religion dictates pretty much everything over there, it probably is).

The Israelis say that God promised the land to them because He said that it would go to the decendents of Abraham's first born son (and they take that to mean first born legitimate son), whereas the Muslims say it was promised to his first born son whether legitimate or not (Abraham's first born son was Ishmael, born to Sarah's maidservent).

So as long as that problem is in the way, there will never be a lasting peace between the two.

Hey, people can surprise you! It's not all doom and gloom - sure, the CURRENT crop of leaders on both sides tend to be religious literates, but that can change. Why, 600 or so years ago, most of Europe was just as obsessed with literal interpretations and dogma - now, Europe is largely secular.

I agree with you that peace PROBABLY won't come to the region for the next 30 or so years. The current ruling generations of Israel and Palestine have made up their minds on the subject, and they ain't gonna change them. But after that generation dies off, who knows what will happen! Of the few Israelis I've talked to, most of them have been secular (then again, they were scientists and scientists tend to be secular). So the attitudes are changing.

I'm not going to deny that the problem is extremely difficult to solve. I'm also not going to be super optimistic and say that lasting peace is likely to occur within my lifetime. There's still far too many wounds and deep seated hatreds on both sides, for there to be a quick and easy peace.

But give it enough time and who knows! We have this view that cultures are largely static - but in fact, throughout the ages, cultures have always changed and the pace of change is quickening.

I will say that, for Palestine's sake, they better solve the situation as quickly as can be. If things are left as they are, there won't really even be a Palestine in the next 20 years. All those years of armed resistance, and it's achieved nothing. Palestine has lost land and Israel has gained it. The Palestinians NEED to realize that Israel is not the US and the Palestinians are not the Vietnamese - while the US could always just leave Vietnam, the Israeli's view Israel as their literal home. They're not going to leave, no matter what you do.

I'm not saying that the Palestinians should do nothing - they should clearly try to voice their rights. But the way things are right now, Israel is winning. Hands down they are winning and if the Palestinians continue with this course of action, Israel will completely overwhelm them. 60+ years of fighting, and Israel has only grown stronger, Palestine has only grown weaker. The definition of insanity is to continue to do the same thing and expect different results. The Palestinians will NEVER be able to defeat the Israeli military without the use of nuclear weapons (and if they did use nuclear weapons, it would destroy the legitimacy of their cause instantly in the eyes of the world).

I don't know what Palestine should do in order to safeguard its chances of nationhood. But I do know that if HAMAS continues to carry on the same path as it has, they won't win. Palestine will disappear, and I don't want that to happen. I don't think anyone really does. HAMAS needs to find a new way. What that way is, I don't know. But they need to. Launching a few home made dinky little rockets has achieved NOTHING, and will continue to achieve nothing. As sympathetic as I am to the plight of the Palestinians, there's no point in continuing down a proven path of failure.

 

[Fappy]

I like them, but I believe they should be more open to comprising with the Palestinians. I have a question for any Israelis here (Palestinians can answer too, though I doubt we have many here): what should be done about Jerusalem?