Poll: Do you think I stand a chance?

[Littaly]

Kind of, ish. It's hard to tell, it really depends how much they value gender equality at your school (and Scotland in general). If they aren't much of a concern you need to first convince them that they are.

I'd recommend you polish your argumentation a little, make it crystal clear what you want and why you want it, and how each of your arguments favor that. For starters, I'd drop the third point, it's pretty weak, and really just a repetition of your first argument. Also, try to make up your mind if you're doing this in the name of gender neutrality or in favor of trans gender people, if it's both you need to be clearer on that (and I'd try my best to keep as two separate goals).

 

[Jingle Fett]

-snip-

Okay, wearing skirts in winter is bullshit, yes. Get that changed if you can.

However: I fail to see how different uniforms encourages stereotyping and an assumption of behavior based on gender roles. That's something that, as has been said before, is based on the sex of the person in question rather than what clothing they wear, even less so if they're just wearing normal guy/girl clothes. Also, saying "girls wear skirts, guys wear trousers" doesn't encourage people to stereotype. What would encourage people to stereotype would be "girls wear low-cut tops and short skirts, guys wear wifebeaters and jeans fifteen sizes too large". That type of clothing has specific connotations and expectations attached to it--a skirt, in and of itself, does not.

Also, railing against gender role reinforcement as inherently bad--which sounds like what you're doing--is foolish. Gender roles are necessary in at least some extent to fit in to society--if you don't care about that or that's not important, then that's cool, but for most people, the ways you are expected to act as a man or a woman are important in interpersonal relations. However, in the real world, nobody much cares--it's about how you act as a person, as a professional and so on which transcends any concept of gender identity.

And while forcing or imposing gender identity on someone--forcing a guy to be all masculine and manly, forcing a girl to be all, well, girly--is generally a bad thing, I am still completely at a loss for how "girls wear skirts, guys were trousers" in any way does this. Yes, it treats the two sexes differently, but on a fairly petty level that I can't see as having a major impact on one's holistic gender identity. I had to wear a skirt a few times against my will in high school, and I never felt like my gender identity was being challenged or had undergone some radical change or whatnot. Similarly, I don't feel that wearing trousers has in any way influenced my male gender identity. Perhaps I'm weird and different, but I see no way that simply mandating a single piece of clothing that isn't something associating with any particular stereotype of either sex (what sort of guy wears trousers? All kinds. What kind of girl wears skirts? All kinds) is the degree of discrimination you make it out to be or could feasibly risk leading to any of the admittedly bad ends you have spelled out. If I'm missing something, I'd be more than happy to listen to an explanation, but so far all I've seen is "uniforms treat sexes differently, therefore it leads to an imposition of gender identity and a promotion of sex-based discrimination," which sounds to me to be about as silly as saying "mandating that doctors be held to a higher standard of medical knowledge promotes anti-intellectualism by segmenting the doctor population away from the rest of the general populace and setting them up as elite". Not quite the same sort of thing, but my point still stands. In debate terms (on the chance you do/have done CX debate), your harms do not follow from your status quo.

I feel I should clarify something here. I dislike the concept of a uniform. I do think it's stupid that girls have to wear skirts year-round no matter what, but that's for practical reasons (winter is goddamn cold sometimes). I don't think, however, that it's that big of a deal. By all means, try to get your uniform policy changed, I can't stop you (as I live in the States). I just think you're going about it for completely the wrong reason and using odd justifications that don't make much sense. There are better reasons to get rid of elements of dress code. It removes one avenue for possible self-expression within socially acceptable bounds (i.e. you couldn't wear a shirt saying "Fuck the Jews, thank god for the Holocaust" and expect to get away with it) is the biggest one. But arguing that skirts versus trousers leads to a division of the school body and a promotion of gender stereotyping via enforcement of gender roles is petty and lacking perspective. Or says a lot about the shallowness of the student body at your school if they legitimately divide themselves into camps solely because "they wear skirts and we wear trousers" (and vice versa).

Your post is spot on and I agree 100%, my feelings exactly. I'd like to add too that if we take the idea of "gender stereotyping" as a reason to eliminate skirts/trousers to the extreme, one could even make the argument that just the existence of different genders promotes gender stereotyping, and that we should therefore eliminate both genders and have only one (make everybody hermaphrodites? o_o). Obviously that would be ridiculous but the same point holds. Men are men and women are women. Differences between the two isn't a bad thing.

 

[Batou667]

Unless there's a school-wide problem with people almost violating indecent exposure laws, school uniforms are asinine. Back in the day when it was encouraged to whoop students' asses and force copious amounts of memorization of rote facts, it was a tool to encourage conformity. Now, it's not only that, but a method of gauging the students' families as well.

You'd have a hard time persuading me that getting rid of the whole idea isn't the way to go.

I don't understand your reasoning here. Linking uniform to Victorian-era schooling is a non-sequitur, and if your point was that uniform is expensive, I'm afraid that's simply not the case: buying a varied and modern summer/winter wardrobe for your child is a damn sight more expensive. The shoes alone could cost you more than an entire schol uniform outfit. Particularly poor families often buy second-hand school uniform, and in families of boys/girls many articles can become hand-me-downs.

tl;dr: we don't have school uniforms just to endulge our Victorian/Harry Potter fantasies.

But school is in a unique position to change society (since it prepares the next generation), and therefore is in a unique position to destroy the wall that stands between the sexes, that says that some clothing is acceptable for one sex and some clothing isn't, as well as other bullshit gender roles.

As your head teacher will no doubt reply; schools have a responsibility to both help shape future society and to prepare their pupils for success in the (current) real world. Instilling overly-idealistic attitudes in impressionable young people doesn't sit well at all with this second aim - after all the fun and games are over you're expected to succeed in higher education or the workplace, after all.

Imagine the scene in the interview room.

"So, you must be Mr... err, Miss...?"
"Screw you, I don't have to label myself for the benefit of your outmoded, patriarchal, gendered paradigm! Educate yourself or just effin' do one!... Sir. Here's my current CV. You'll notice I played in the marching band in addition to taking extra-curricular PowerPoint sessions"

Like other people have said, I'm sure your heart's in the right place, but to be brutally honest, I don't think your head is. But still, I'm sure it'll be a learning experience for you.

 

[Naeo]

-snip-

ADDENDUM: you could definitely stand a chance of getting parts of the uniform code changed if you change your justifications for changing them. Most of the school administration, unless they eat and breathe every extreme of political correctness, will dismiss your justifications and probably use that to dismiss your whole case. However, if you try to get the uniform code changed to, say, allow girls to wear trousers and/or allow guys to wear shorts or whatever on purely pragmatic reasons (as stated, "winter is cold" and maybe "summer is hot" if guys have to wear only trousers all year), you would stand a much better chance. However, turning this into a moral/social justice issue is likely to cause your case more harm than good.

No, that would totally undermine my case. I'm arguing for gender equality here, and for girls to be granted extra freedoms but boys not to be goes totally against my aims.

Gonna use this to reply to both of your posts, in order. So, in response to your first post: you seem to ignore that most children understand that a uniform is a mandate, and not some endorsement of "this is the only acceptable attire for girls/boys". If that were the case, then girls would only wear skirts and guys would only wear trousers even on weekends/holidays when they're not in school, which I seriously doubt is the case. People don't see uniforms as some sort of "this is the standard" because there are so many other stimuli that give contrary indications. Social interactions outside of school, the internet, television, movies, and so on all contradict the supposed message of "no, you can only wear THIS". And furthermore, if the argument held true that school-enforced dress codes have such an enormous influence on a child's gender identity and general style of dress (as style of dress is much, much more likely that someones' entire gender identity), then I would be sitting here in khakis and a polo shirt, as that was the sort of uniform I had to put up with for seven years during the most formative time of my life thusfar. Instead, I'm wearing a t-shirt and jeans. Further, people often consciously rebel against authority in the middle and high school ages, so they would very likely not give half a shit what the school dress code is unless the school is breathing down their neck about it. I also do not know where you get this imagery of a "wall" between the sexes--unless there is some greater problem in society, not the school, that is segregating and encouraging girls and guys not to intermingle, there is no "wall" between the two. Well, either that, or the school physically segregates the sexes and has other policies above and beyond a petty dress code that are ostensibly justified by blatant sexism (this would be things like "girls can't take this class, only guys can" when it's not something like "physical health for guys" or the like; or, something like "guys can't use this hallway, only girls" when it's not, say, a hallway in the women's locker room). In which case, you should probably ignore the uniform thing and go after the policies that would have a real effect.

Which reminds me of something I should have stated explicitly much earlier. Even if you get this changed, there will be almost no actual change in the gender identity of the kids. Campaigning for girls to wear trousers and guys to wear skirts will do nothing to actually further gender equality, because guys won't wear skirts unless they're doing it in jest, and the end result will be "guys keep wearing trousers, girls now wear skirts and trousers". You want to go after gender equality? Get a petition for a class on gender studies or a class analyzing gender roles and sexuality in the media/society/history. Something to educate people about the issue, because frankly, just changing what people are allowed to wear will ultimately be inconsequential. The schools I went to, where the uniform was "polo shirt with khaki trousers/shorts (or skirts for girls)" did nothing to affect gender identity or gender equality or whatnot. I talked to friends at other high schools where the dress code was closer to what yours sounds like, and there were no instances of guys suddenly taking on the stereotypical masculine aspects or girls relinquishing all tomboyism and whatnot. The ones that didn't like the dress code just silently resented it.

In response to your second post now. I meant to convey that with your current argument and justification, I doubt that you will be taken seriously. You won't win your fight with such silly justification as "girls wearing skirts and guys wearing trousers imposes gender-role stereotypes and stunts individual gender identity development, promoting sexism, segregation, and discrimination based on sex". The extremity of that rhetoric makes it incredibly easy to dismiss you as someone with their head in the clouds, trying to reach some utopian vision of absolute political correctness where no one's inherent differences--physical, sexual, psychological or otherwise--are recognized for fear of negatively influencing their development. It makes you seem like someone trying to take political correctness to an extreme end that yields no actual, tangible gains over the status quo other than "it would be ideologically better that way". If you change your argument to a pragmatic one or something that's not filled with frankly baseless and unsupportable accusations about the uniform code reinforcing stereotypes and sex discrimination, maybe by arguing that more variety would allow for a greater feeling of individuality within the school or that the current uniform is unfairly narrow and restricts other functionally necessary clothing options, people would be much more likely to actually listen and consider your arguments. As it is, for them to take you seriously, you'd need a fair bit of research showing the connection between the current sort of dress code and the sort of harms you seem to think it would bring. Unless your school's administration is insanely conscious about political correctness to an unprecedented degree, I honestly don't think they would listen to you as it is without substantial backing evidence above and beyond any reasoning you provide or accusations/claims you make. So, when I said you should change your justifications if you want to get this done, that was not a "stop trying for gender equality," that was a "you will almost certainly be dismissed as it is, so change your approach so you'll have a decent chance". You can still do it for gender equality or whatever, just say you're doing it for something else and I think you'd have a better chance.

 

[seraphy]

I don't really know if you have a chance. However why aren't you trying to abolish school uniforms altogether? Why just gender neutral?

School uniforms are useless and don't serve any real purpose.

 

[theriddlen]

Also, I never got the point of school uniforms existence. In my country we don't have them and nothing bad happens because of it.

Here in the UK, the youth fashion market is advertised so aggressively (particularly to the working-class, perversely) that many children would quite literally bankrupt their parents by demanding new outfits every fortnight. Insisting on uniform goes some way to providing social equality in schools, it helps the poorer kids not get picked on quite so much and also has benefits in giving the kids a common identity. Also, school trips (especially in inner-city schools) would turn into a city-wide game of Hide and Seek if the kids were all in civvies.

Not to mention it looks smart - a large proportion of children would never learn how to do up a tie if it wasn't for mandatory shirts. I'm all in favour of school uniform.

Do poorer kids really get picked on? I think it's a popular and untrue stereotype. Here, in Poland, a country built out of prejudices and discrimination, we don't really have such a thing. As long as your clothes are in a good condition, you won't hear a thing from people about them.

Also there are no problems during the school trips - and I'm saying this from a perspective of a person who's living in the busiest and largest city in Poland. People under 18 do have brains, they don't need to be labeled in order to keep track of them.

 

[Batou667]

Do poorer kids really get picked on? I think it's a popular and untrue stereotype. Here, in Poland, a country built out of prejudices and discrimination, we don't really have such a thing. As long as your clothes are in a good condition, you won't hear a thing from people about them.

Also there are no problems during the school trips - and I'm saying this from a perspective of a person who's living in the busiest and largest city in Poland. People under 18 do have brains, they don't need to be labeled in order to keep track of them.

Yes, poorer kids, or kids whose parents don't dress them "fashionably", do get picked on. I have direct first-hand experience of that, and some of the experiences of close friends show that it's quite widespread. Here in the UK I think we have a consumer culture and worship of "bling" which is a lot closer to parts of the US than mainland Europe. Granted, it's probable that these bullied kids would get picked-on anyway, but the consumer culture here plays a big role.

I have some family in Germany, and they used to wear bright green-and-red anoraks to school. If I had tried that here in the UK, I would have in all probability been beaten up for my lack of conformity.

More than that though is the issue of expense. A lot of kids here in the UK expect branded clothes as standard.

 

[DeleteThisAcc]

I will express my opinion in what seems to be complete off topic:
What the hell is lately whit all that "lets give transsexuals more rights", if it was my rules they would have to wear big red marks sewn to their faces and have free psychiatric help.

Anyway woman looks best in evening dress. Skirt is close enough. Why you want to make women ugly?

 

[chadachada123]

My only thing is that I HIGHLY doubt that there are ANY transgendered kids at your school.

I truly question anyone having an idea about their "real" sexual identity before the age of 20.

Other than that, I completely agree with both your petition and your logic, and support pushing for equality within schools.

 

[Nosphorus]

Do poorer kids really get picked on? I think it's a popular and untrue stereotype. Here, in Poland, a country built out of prejudices and discrimination, we don't really have such a thing. As long as your clothes are in a good condition, you won't hear a thing from people about them.

Also there are no problems during the school trips - and I'm saying this from a perspective of a person who's living in the busiest and largest city in Poland. People under 18 do have brains, they don't need to be labeled in order to keep track of them.

Just to back up Batou's comment it does happen, it happens a lot.

I don't post here often, I'm more of a lurker but me and some friends I know have first hand experience of this. I don't come from a well off family, but back in school in the typical uniform you were one of the class, when non uniform day came I'd wear one particular outfit, because it was my best out of about 3-4 different pairs of clothing.

The day eventually came when people realised that I had wore the same outfit multiple non uniform days in a row, and when they asked me why the only response I could muster under a blushing face was "I just really like Man-U", despite not being a football fan, while wearing an out of season football shirt.

Anyways, can some of you learn to paragraph? Some of these posts are really hard to read :S

 

[DeltaEdge]

So Escapist, lately at my school, I've been organizing a petition. The aim of the petition is to get a gender-neutral uniform put in place. Currently, girls have to wear skirts and boys trousers (along with various other differences), but I hope to change that. Ideally I want a system where you can pick and choose between either uniform, but I'd also settle for a single gender-neutral uniform. I plan to send this petition to the powers-that-be in my school, along with a letter detailing my arguments, these arguments being:

1) Sex-specific uniform is sexist, because it encourages treating the sexes differently, and it splits the school into two factions and discourages socialisation between the two.
2) Sex-specific uniform discriminates against transgendered pupils and forces them to conform with their birth-assigned sex.
3) To deny certain clothing to some pupils because of their random event at their birth, is discriminatory.

If you want to know more details, I go to a private Scottish school, my petition has about 100 signatures in a school with around 800 kids, and this kinda thing is unprecedented.

What do you think?

Edit: Thought of a way to make my points better.

1) Not only does it divide pupils, but it encourages people to look at and treat the two sexes differently.
2) By having a gender-neutral uniform, this firstly de-emphasises genders importance so a transgendered/gender-confused pupil would feel less self-conciouss about it all, and it would make it easier for them to experiment.

Double Edit: Please note that what I really want is a system where you can pick certain items of clothing from either of the current uniforms. I do not want a single gender-neutral uniform, but I'd prefer that to the current system.

Although I agree that it would be a good idea to have a gender neutral uniform if it's just pants and a regular non-gender-specific top, I do not agree with letting each respective sex wear the others uniform. I guess I don't really mind too much if a girl wears the guy's uniform, but a guy should not be wearing the female uniform. Although I said I don't mind the females wearing male, since you are grouping them into one category of cross-dressing, I will deny both. There are some questions that I would like to ask, but I'm just going to argue this on the basis that you are going to a private school.

1) It's the school's choice, not yours. If you want to petition, go to a public school.
2) I don't see how enforcing both sexes to wear their own respective clothes is sexist. Both are equally forced to abide by their respective dress code.
3) Wearing different uniforms does acknowledge that there is a difference between them, but it does not discourage socialization nor does it split the school into two "factions". I don't know what kind of hick mid-1900's town you come from, but last time I checked, girls and boys get along just fine in school. I've never seen boys and girls completely separate from each other. I always see them playing together or as you get older, hanging out together and groups of friends are almost always comprised of people from both genders and they all socialize and understand each other despite their differences. How exactly are these well integrated groups of people in any way like the so-called unsociable "gender factions" that you speak of?
4) Genders ARE different. We wouldn't both classifying them differently if they weren't. Saying that genders shouldn't treat each other differently or wear different gender specific uniforms at all because it is sexist is like saying that boys and girls should use the same restrooms, the same public showers, the same dorm rooms, the same changing rooms... etc because it's discriminatory. That would be just plain stupid.
5) Why is said transgendered person going to a private school that enforces gender-specific attire in the first place? Either way, we are what we are. We don't get the choice to change our sex and no amount of plastic surgery can say other-wise. Also, it's deceptive to claim that you are one sex when you are really another. It doesn't matter who you think you are, but if someone asks you whether or not you are a boy or a girl and you are a boy and you tell them you are a girl or vice-versa, then you are lying to them. I don't have a problem with someone who acts transgendered, but if they try to truthfully claim that they are a different sex than they really are, then that's a problem. What if you decided to sleep with someone who you thought was one sex but found out in the bed that they were lying to you? You've just blatantly lied and tricked this person and that is just wrong. If they knew you were trans, that's fine, but otherwise, your just a liar. Having a dress-code that prevents cross-dressing to me just means that they are preventing students from deceiving each other, and I don't think that is such a bad thing.

 

[ZombieMonkey7]

I think you could get it passed, but I really fail to see why you would want to. Not to mention everyone in your school would despise you

 

[Woodsey]

Not that I'd ever complain about girls in skirts, but its a little ridiculous to force that. Especially if you're in Scotland, fucking hell.

Maybe try and get some people to tell their parents about it; if the people funding the school get behind it it'll have more weight behind it.

 

[snagli]

I'm not a big fan of uniforms anyway, they are often ugly and I prefer my geek shirts over anything, but applying for something as basic as freedom to choose between skirts and pants is a solid cause. I wish you best of luck but 100 sigs isn't going to cut it, especially in private schools, which are rather strict and totalitarian.

 

[Twilight_guy]

Depend on the cli8mate of the school. For example, in the south here in the US they wouldn't go with it because they have more conservative values while at my college in California they'd go with it because there is a far larger portion of liberal type people and a greater emphasis on LGBTQ issues.

 

[Excelcior]

First of all, I'd like to applaud you, OP. I haven't posted here in ages, but thanks to your thread I feel invigorated to post here again. I'd give you a cake, but I'm sure it's gone stale by now.

On topic though: You know what I'd do with school uniforms? Enforce the hell out of 'em. "But... But... They keep the students from expressing themselves!" I hear some of you say. And you're right, they keep students from expressing themselves THROUGH SUCH SUPERFICIAL MEANS, and instead focus on something deeper than how low the can let their trousers hang without dropping to the floor.

1) Sex-specific uniform is sexist, because it encourages treating the sexes differently, and it splits the school into two factions and discourages socialisation between the two.

Because in schools without gender specific uniforms men and women mingle as easily as men with men and women with women?

Ignore it as much as you want, but there definitely are differences in gender. And not just the obvious ones. For example, an old driving teacher once told me men focus better on a deep area (men have been the hunters for thousands of years), while women focus better on a wide area (they looked after the children). Okay, it's not related to why women should wear trousers or not, but what I mean is that both genders, while equal, are still different. Denying it is futile, so save yourself the trouble.

2) Sex-specific uniform discriminates against transgendered pupils and forces them to conform with their birth-assigned sex.

Well, I think it's time for a nice cup of harsh reality: Transgenderism (or rather, intersexuality) is a genetical error. Keep your trousers on everyone, I'm not saying we should purge them from society or anything. I do think we should let them... pick their gender at a later age, but I don't think turning "sex" from two radio buttons into a slidey bar is good choice. You're a man or a woman. If nature fucked up and slapped a willy on someone who's could perfectly pass for a woman as long as she keeps her knickers on, then maybe we should change the birth certificate. (I'll stop now before we turn this in a discussion about intersexuality.)

3) To deny certain clothing to some pupils because of their random event at their birth, is discriminatory.

You know what annoys me in humanity? Their absolute fear of not being in control. Sometimes, shit just happens without you being able to do anything about it. Grow a pair and deal with it. Take your daily dose of Fukitol, accept that life is shit and make the best of it.

I do agree that wearing short skirts during the winter sounds a bit cruel. 50 years ago, even in this backwater hole I live in girls could wear trousers underneath their skirt when it was cold. And the girl schools here were run by penguins nuns, mind you. Those weren't particularly the most progressive people around.

To me, the whole idea sounds like kids being self entitled twits. I appreciate that you're trying to make the world better, but in all honesty, there're far more pressing matters than you not being allowed to wear a skirt, or your girlfriend wearing trousers.

 

[someonehairy-ish]

most schools are dicks about uniforms, even if they aren't private... but you should keep getting signatures anyway, it might work