Poll: Doctor Who Could Be Better

[Albino Boo]

Its not that popular, Strictly come dancing and the X factor both beat the show in the viewing figures and both have been exported worldwide.

Except that the X-Factor's ratings continue to plummet while Who's continue to sky-rocket. Doctor Who and the X-Factor draw similar ratings, with Who handily beating X-Factor during the Who specials.

The budget per episode of DR Who is £687,000,

Mmm...not sure where you saw that. From what I've read the budget per episode was roughly £1,000,000. And, that was back during Eccleston's run. Since then the budget has increased.

Helen Mirren got more than for playing the Queen in the west end and picked up a bafta for it.

So she was paid more for playing a role in a feature film than you presume she would be from a single episode of Doctor Who? Not seeing how this is even remotely a fair comparison.

Michael Caine spent most of the 70s drunk and took what films he could get and Caine is also known for a having a thing about money. He came from real poverty in the East End and intends to stay as far away from it as possible.

I take it you missed the part where I said a number of those bad and/or low budget films came after his Oscar wins.

And even if his sole purpose for taking such low-paying roles is simply to make money, than that still refutes your point that having an Oscar means you must receive exuberant amounts of money to play a role.

Helen Mirren didn't buy a 6,699 square foot mansion in Beverly Hills on £200k a year.

Yet another point you missed. I had showed that Smith made roughly £200,000 per season for the show, and that that was significantly less than Tennant had made per season. And, considering the budget for the series has only gone up, meeting the salary demands of someone like Mirren[footnote]Of whom we're still, apparently, assuming would demand such ridiculously high salaries.[/footnote] wouldn't be too difficult.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

All this aside, I'm left wondering:
I never said they should have nabbed these actresses for the role. Not specifically. In fact, I made of point of saying actresses like them.

Even so, my original post was a flight of fantasy. Wishful thinking. I wasn't looking at it in a realistic sense. Not in terms of reasons they didn't select them.

So the question is, why did you feel compelled to step in a shit all over my discussion with another poster?

[edit]
On second thought, don't answer that. This discussion is just drawing the topic farther and farther away from the original discussion.

As much as I dislike this vernacular, let's just agree to disagree.

The budget has fallen from just over £1000000 to £600k per episode http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_much_does_it_cost_to_make_an_episode_of_Dr_Who#slide2

I was referring to the stage show that Helen Mirren did in the theater not the film. She did an 18 week run in the west end playing the Queen again. Helen Mirren has repeatedly earned more playing the Queen in year than the Queen gets. If you want a private conversation use PM's don't post in public space if you don't want other people commenting on what you say.

 

[JoJo]

1. The Doctor's regenerations are supposed to be random.

I'm trying to stay out of this thread since I've said my part, but just a small canon correction, it's never been stated anywhere that the Doctor's regenerations are supposed to be random. We know from other Time Lords that it's possible to change sex, race or even species but we don't know at what rate, maybe only 1% of regenerations lead to a sex change (it doesn't seem likely to be 50%, given that the Master, River Song, Romana and most of the other Time Lords / Ladies throughout the series never changed gender either). Ditto with race.

 

[Qtastic]

The budget has fallen from just over £1000000 to £600k per episode http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_much_does_it_cost_to_make_an_episode_of_Dr_Who#slide2

Wiki answers is NOT a reliable source.

 

[AusGamer44]

The one female actor I can really see as the Doctor is Tilda Swinton.With her androgynous look and sense of other-worldliness,I think she'd be perfect.
I even have the post-regeneration scene in my head:
"I don't believe it! This is a first! It's taken all these regenerations but it's finally happened! I'm finally...GINGER!"

 

[Thaluikhain]

The one female actor I can really see as the Doctor is Tilda Swinton.With her androgynous look and sense of other-worldliness,I think she'd be perfect.
I even have the post-regeneration scene in my head:
"I don't believe it! This is a first! It's taken all these regenerations but it's finally happened! I'm finally...GINGER!"

Yeah, I've always thought she'd make a good Doctor.

 

[Qtastic]

The one female actor I can really see as the Doctor is Tilda Swinton.With her androgynous look and sense of other-worldliness,I think she'd be perfect.
I even have the post-regeneration scene in my head:
"I don't believe it! This is a first! It's taken all these regenerations but it's finally happened! I'm finally...GINGER!"

This I can DEFINITELY see lol. Beautiful.

 

[RicoADF]

I guess one of the problems with a black or female doctor is that the show regularly time-travels back to the past, and, well...

FEMALE DOCTOR: "I know what the problem is!"
MEN OF 1500s LONDON "Shut up woman
FEMALE DOCTOR "No, my sonic screwdriver ha..."
MEN OF 1500s LONDON "A witch! Burn her!"

And that kind of thing would be interesting if the episode were a one-off set, say, during the Suffragette movement, but the Doctor being a woman would dominate every single episode set in the past (roughly 1/4-1/3 of an average season) in a way that the Doctor being a man does not. As a man he can move freely through any time period without slowing down the narrative for a "Sexism is bad, yo" message.
(Also I know his companions are female and the whole sexism in the past thing has been dealt with with a snide one-liner in the past, making the main character driving the story forward a woman would mean the issue would get pushed much more to the fore)

And as for the Doctor being black, that'd be even worse! I don't want lynch threats in my Doctor Who.

EDIT - Goddamn ninjas

Actually Rebelscum hit the nail right on the head as to why both a female and a non white male (especially in England) would be a very bad idea, if most of the episodes focus around traveling back in time then almost every episode would have issues of racism, sexism &/or both and would get old and probably ruin the show. That said I don't watch Dr Who (please don't hurt me) so i cannot comment beyond what I've read and have heard about the show. Not to mention as you said, changing for change sake would be stupid, people are use to a white male doctor and while the actor may change they recognize him straight away. He's got a consistent look (you could call it iconic) which even I as someone who has never seen the series can recognise, which if changed could cause a massive backlash. Lots of risk for frankly no reward.

You know what? It is true that all my arguments could be reduced to "they've always been this way and I'd feel icky if they changed it".
But it doesn't make you right because base of your arguments is "lets change things just to change things"
Both are equally "small minded"
So lets put real world issues and our personal beliefs aside, shall we?

Lets talk about internal logic of series.
Doctor has been white male for 12/13 regenerations
I'm pretty sure he has preference or at least some REALLY good reason for these traits.
Can we at least agree on that?

 

[Michael Kirley]

1. The Doctor's regenerations are supposed to be random.

'Eh. This is a pretty irrelevant argument. I'm not sure why we'd really waste time evaluating the random distribution of regenerations. Suspension of disbelief, and whatnot.

2. A non-white and/or non-male Doctor would be an interesting and bold change.

Depends on how you look at it. I think that it would probably come across as pandering (because that's what it is) to people who really just want diversity for diversity's sake. I mean, there's nothing wrong with changing the Doctor's character, per se, but there's no real reason (and especially no requirement) for it to be done in this manner.

3. "It would send the message that it really doesn't matter" what race or sex the Doctor is...it's still the Doctor (read the subtext "we aren't all that different from each other in the end.")

The day the Doctor starts being that overt about political commentary will be the day I stop watching it. I don't watch Doctor Who to listen to social commentary talking points that I've heard ten thousand times on the news already. I watch Doctor Who because it's entertaining and awesome. Doing shit for political points is always obvious and always comes across as fakery, at least to me.

4. A large portion of the Doctor Who fan base is female (have you EVER been to a convention?), so I'm sure they would appreciate a female Doctor.

Doesn't this undermine your argument viz. attacking the guy who said that he could relate more to a white, male Doctor?

I guess it really comes down to the fact that characters don't *need* to have any characteristics, in particular; they're fictional! But that doesn't mean we should just randomly change variables because it would be a statement about equality, or whatever. All of that stuff comes across as cheap and totally contrived whenever it happens. It also takes the focus of the show away from the actual show and puts it on a discussion of stuff that really has nothing to do with Doctor Who as entertainment.

 

[blackrave]

4. A large portion of the Doctor Who fan base is female (have you EVER been to a convention?), so I'm sure they would appreciate a female Doctor.

This argument seems a bit off
I'm sure half of women (or more) do not want to be Doctor, they want to be his companion (as in not relating to character, but feeling attraction to character)
That part would be disappointed or even angry if Doctor suddenly changed gender.
All they want from Doctor is to stay witty and charming (and occasionally attractive)

Only reason why Doctor could change gender/skin color would be if something/someone forced him to
For example if he was trapped for some time somewhere without access to Tardis, while at the same time being hunted by someone/something. Then to hide among crowd, regenerating outside his usual/preferred appearance traits would be tactical choice.

 

[RevRaptor]

While I'm not adverse to the idea (Helen Mirren would be an awesome Doctor) I think I would dislike the change if it was really done, It just feels to much like Pandering to the pc crowd. It would feel cheap and tacky and tacked on for no good reason.

 

[Dark Knifer]

I really don't think a show this mainstream wants to have to deal with politics so much. The writers and crew probably just want to focus on making the show instead of having being dragged to interviews to be shamed by 'family' news stations or praised for being progressive.

If they have ideas for a female, ethnic or different sexuality doctor then they will but they don't seem to. Besides, they have more then enough characters carrying all those basis already so making the doctor that as well seems pointless when they already try to make a different dynamic with different doctors and seem quite happy continuing that. No show or product should ever be forced to diversify provided they aren't being racist, sexist etc but if they want to make it they well and it should be good hopefully.

 

[Mr.Squishy]

I've been pushing for a Female Doctor for a long time, and it's not out of any feminist ideal, really. Infact it's more of the opposite: What would be better than The Doctor? A Doctor us dudes could fuck and have it not be gay.

It's the same principal behind Batgirl's creation. It's everything you loved about the character, just sexy. And I'm not saying FemDoc wears something lowcut or the like.

I mean like, keep everything the same about 9,10 and Eleven and swap the gender. Same clothes, same everything. To me, the idea of a woman like that is attractive in it self.

While I agree with what you say...David Tennant is already sexy hunk of a man. Rawr.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

I've been pushing for a Female Doctor for a long time, and it's not out of any feminist ideal, really. Infact it's more of the opposite: What would be better than The Doctor? A Doctor us dudes could fuck and have it not be gay.

It's the same principal behind Batgirl's creation. It's everything you loved about the character, just sexy. And I'm not saying FemDoc wears something lowcut or the like.

I mean like, keep everything the same about 9,10 and Eleven and swap the gender. Same clothes, same everything. To me, the idea of a woman like that is attractive in it self.

While I agree with what you say...David Tennant is already sexy hunk of a man. Rawr.

Yes, and at the risk of my Hetero card I do agree, but I'm saying if we had a female doctor we could want to fuck her and have it NOT be gay.

 

[Qtastic]

The day the Doctor starts being that overt about political commentary will be the day I stop watching it.

No one is suggesting having a female Doctor stand on a soapbox and declare equal rights. The act of choosing, say, a female, would be all that would be necessary.

Doing shit for political points is always obvious and always comes across as fakery, at least to me.

5. "This is all PC crap."

Nope, not at all. If I were to say that all established white male roles, such as the human torch (troll face), should have females or non-whites sometimes, we could talk (though I don't care what sex or race anything is, but there is at least grounds for a conversation), but the Time Lords have been established IN CANON on numerous occasions as having the ability to change into any race/sex after dying (at random). So yeah...no.

I think people read buzz words like "message" in the context of television and IMMEDIATELY jump to the PC assumption. This is disappointing, as there is a difference between PC crap and genuine issues. There is also nothing to say that such a "message" has to be overt, blatant, belabored, or constantly revisited. Frankly, I think much of the "PC crap" posts are reactionary: people who are afraid that any changes to the Doctor's character will destroy it, even though the Doctor has changed innumerable times.

This argument seems a bit off
I'm sure half of women (or more) do not want to be Doctor, they want to be his companion (as in not relating to character, but feeling attraction to character)
That part would be disappointed or even angry if Doctor suddenly changed gender.
All they want from Doctor is to stay witty and charming (and occasionally attractive)

A fair point, though it might be a bit presumptuous to say that they would be disappointed or angry. I think some would love the strong female Doctor, others would be angry, and others would be ambivalent. Some would get over it and love it (fans are fans), some would decide they don't like it after awhile, etc.

NOTE TO ALL: THERE IS NO SUGGESTION THAT A CHANGE IN WRITING OR STYLE WOULD BE IMPLEMENTED AT ALL.

 

[Tanis]

:facepalm:

The title 'Doctor Who Could Be Better' isn't one this thread is about.
You should rename it to 'There Needs To Be a Non-White (Male) Doctor'.

The Doctor's skin color or gender as little, if anything, to do with how GOOD or BETTER the show is/could become.

Making a character a specific race/gender just to fill a quota is just a bigoted as not a character a specific race/gender.

 

[Albino Boo]

No one is suggesting having a female Doctor stand on a soapbox and declare equal rights. The act of choosing, say, a female, would be all that would be necessary.

Doing shit for political points is always obvious and always comes across as fakery, at least to me.

5. "This is all PC crap."

Nope, not at all. If I were to say that all established white male roles, such as the human torch (troll face), should have females or non-whites sometimes, we could talk (though I don't care what sex or race anything is, but there is at least grounds for a conversation), but the Time Lords have been established IN CANON on numerous occasions as having the ability to change into any race/sex after dying (at random). So yeah...no.

I think people read buzz words like "message" in the context of television and IMMEDIATELY jump to the PC assumption. This is disappointing, as there is a difference between PC crap and genuine issues. There is also nothing to say that such a "message" has to be overt, blatant, belabored, or constantly revisited. Frankly, I think much of the "PC crap" posts are reactionary: people who are afraid that any changes to the Doctor's character will destroy it, even though the Doctor has changed innumerable times.

This argument seems a bit off
I'm sure half of women (or more) do not want to be Doctor, they want to be his companion (as in not relating to character, but feeling attraction to character)
That part would be disappointed or even angry if Doctor suddenly changed gender.
All they want from Doctor is to stay witty and charming (and occasionally attractive)

A fair point, though it might be a bit presumptuous to say that they would be disappointed or angry. I think some would love the strong female Doctor, others would be angry, and others would be ambivalent. Some would get over it and love it (fans are fans), some would decide they don't like it after awhile, etc.

NOTE TO ALL: THERE IS NO SUGGESTION THAT A CHANGE IN WRITING OR STYLE WOULD BE IMPLEMENTED AT ALL.

Dr Who does not sit in vacuum. In the words of Andrew Marr is ?The BBC is not impartial or neutral. It?s a publicly funded, urban organisation with an abnormally large number of young people, ethnic minorities, and gay people. It has a liberal bias, not so much a party political bias. It is better expressed as a cultural liberal bias" Marr is a BBC current affairs broadcaster and former editor of the left leaning Independent Newspaper. Ben Stephenson, the controller of BBC drama commissioning, said a couple of years ago, the BBC should foster ?Left-of-centre thinking?. You might say well you can not watch but the BBC you have to pay the licence fee regardless if you watch the BBC or not. You can't use what in essence is a tax to promote one political point of view. One of the reason why old Who was cancelled was the writers were using the show to attack the government of the day. Moffet is a Labour party donor and any move by him to make the Dr more diverse is going to viewed in a wider context. The BBC is already in real trouble for, ignoring widespread sexuall abuse by well known presenters, for its pay structure and for the appallingly bad journalistic standards when the BBC accused a prominent Tory peer of being a pedophile. Following your favored position is going to weaken the already crumbling foundations of the BBC.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Mmm...not sure where you saw that. From what I've read the budget per episode was roughly £1,000,000. And, that was back during Eccleston's run. Since then the budget has increased.

If that's true, then they spent £998,000 of it on catering. Eccleston era Who looks like a High School play.

 

[Qtastic]

Eccleston era Who looks like a High School play.

Deliberate camp does not mean low budget.

 

[Qtastic]

No one is suggesting having a female Doctor stand on a soapbox and declare equal rights. The act of choosing, say, a female, would be all that would be necessary.

Doing shit for political points is always obvious and always comes across as fakery, at least to me.

5. "This is all PC crap."

Nope, not at all. If I were to say that all established white male roles, such as the human torch (troll face), should have females or non-whites sometimes, we could talk (though I don't care what sex or race anything is, but there is at least grounds for a conversation), but the Time Lords have been established IN CANON on numerous occasions as having the ability to change into any race/sex after dying (at random). So yeah...no.

I think people read buzz words like "message" in the context of television and IMMEDIATELY jump to the PC assumption. This is disappointing, as there is a difference between PC crap and genuine issues. There is also nothing to say that such a "message" has to be overt, blatant, belabored, or constantly revisited. Frankly, I think much of the "PC crap" posts are reactionary: people who are afraid that any changes to the Doctor's character will destroy it, even though the Doctor has changed innumerable times.

This argument seems a bit off
I'm sure half of women (or more) do not want to be Doctor, they want to be his companion (as in not relating to character, but feeling attraction to character)
That part would be disappointed or even angry if Doctor suddenly changed gender.
All they want from Doctor is to stay witty and charming (and occasionally attractive)

A fair point, though it might be a bit presumptuous to say that they would be disappointed or angry. I think some would love the strong female Doctor, others would be angry, and others would be ambivalent. Some would get over it and love it (fans are fans), some would decide they don't like it after awhile, etc.

NOTE TO ALL: THERE IS NO SUGGESTION THAT A CHANGE IN WRITING OR STYLE WOULD BE IMPLEMENTED AT ALL.

Dr Who does not sit in vacuum. In the words of Andrew Marr is ?The BBC is not impartial or neutral. It?s a publicly funded, urban organisation with an abnormally large number of young people, ethnic minorities, and gay people. It has a liberal bias, not so much a party political bias. It is better expressed as a cultural liberal bias" Marr is a BBC current affairs broadcaster and former editor of the left leaning Independent Newspaper. Ben Stephenson, the controller of BBC drama commissioning, said a couple of years ago, the BBC should foster ?Left-of-centre thinking?. You might say well you can not watch but the BBC you have to pay the licence fee regardless if you watch the BBC or not. You can't use what in essence is a tax to promote one political point of view. One of the reason why old Who was cancelled was the writers were using the show to attack the government of the day. Moffet is a Labour party donor and any move by him to make the Dr more diverse is going to viewed in a wider context. The BBC is already in real trouble for, ignoring widespread sexuall abuse by well known presenters, for its pay structure and for the appallingly bad journalistic standards when the BBC accused a prominent Tory peer of being a pedophile. Following your favored position is going to weaken the already crumbling foundations of the BBC.

I'm sorry...you think making a show more diverse makes it liberal? What sad, xenophobic, hateful people you must think conservatives are. I don't think asking for a female and/or non-white Doctor is liberal (in the political sense of the word). I'm sure there are plenty of politically conservative individuals who are not frightened by change.

I wasn't aware that seeing race, sex, and sexual orientation as equal was such a wildly liberal idea. I didn't even think it was much of a statement, just a cool little wink. I thought we were past the point where that is still an actual "message." How utterly disappointing. The Doctor would be ashamed.

 

[Thaluikhain]

I'm sure there are plenty of politically conservative individuals who are not frightened by change.

Er, the basis of conservatism is being opposed to change. That's the whole point of it.